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Thread: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

  1. #26
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    I'm with those who say it's the high voice of the mandolin and lack of sustain. You won't find arrangements as most pop music now has latched on to that big "wall of sound" where there's no space for quiet instruments. Every second is filled with synths, drums, percussion, vocals, guitars, etc. Ergo, why write arrangements for them. There's plenty of mandolin/octave work in the newer alt/folk scene, as with Sarah Jarosz and crew. It's just not "pop" yet... or maybe ever.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Mandolin's not primarily a vocal accompaniment instrument (though it can function as one), and its link to bluegrass, country, Celtic and acoustic folk music probably prevent many in the pop music business from considering it for, say, hip-hop or heavy metal. (And I must confess that doesn't bother me all that much.)
    Heh, I love heavy metal, and man, is it ever hard to get a good heavy metal sound out of a mando. I think I'd have an easier time fitting it into hip-hop (I've already heard hip-hop with banjo in it).

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  4. #28
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    OK let me summarize: Why popular hit songs featuring mandolin are rare is the same reason there are no popular hit songs about the periodic chart of the elements (well there was one, but it wasn't pop hit)
    . . . .
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  5. #29

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ... no space for quiet instruments...
    But look at the ubiquitous harp (for *quiet* instruments). Yes, it has other virtues too, but just pointing out the avid use of *quiet* dynamics, too.

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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    My guess is that the two questions are pretty closely related.

    Think about it - there are obvious reasons why, but most popular music is written on piano, guitar, and occasionally violin. So people who like that kind of music generally play those instruments. I don't think many people out there learn an instrument because they like the sound. My bet is most people learn an instrument because the music they like features said instrument.

    So that accounts for the lack of mandolin-original music, but as far as pop-covers are concerned, I think it's an effort by kids who grew up playing an instrument classically to connect somehow with the music they like. There are a lot of people out there whose parents forced them to take piano or violin lessons. I'm sure a portion of those kids never learned to like classical music so now, with this crazy awesome skill they have, they're playing the music they like to hear. On the mandolin side, there aren't many parents who forced their kids into studying mandolin to a technical degree.

    And lastly - I don't think the mandolin is unsuited to popular music, it just needs a niche to shine. Whenever play for my friends they always comment on how cool my instrument is. I play all sorts of music including Top 40s pop and I haven't heard anyone say "that sounds out of place". I even featured my mandolin in a musical I wrote with some classmates a few months back and it was a hit.

    C'est la vie, I suppose!

  7. #31
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Who spends time worrying about this? I'm just thankful bagpipes aren't more popular.
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  9. #32

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    I got into mandolin not through bluegrass, but from medieval and European traditional music.

    It's interesting to see people talk about mandolin as an instrument lacking sustain, as I view this as coupled with the desirability in some discussions of mandolins which are more about chop that sustained sound. However, there *are* instruments out there which have sustain. That difference is one of the main points of distinction between f-hole and oval-hole instruments, and also between archtop and flat-top instruments. A flat-top oval-hole instrument, even a classic pancake like a Gibson, Flatiron or the more modern instruments has more sustain than an arch-top f-hole instrument, as numerous Cafe topics about how the formers' sound isn't right for bluegrass attest.

    I learned mandolin not just as a melodic instrument, but also as an accompaniment for singing, and for chord-melody work. I actually have an arrangement to accompany Let It go from Frozen as mentioned in the first post, complete with the rising scales with combined with the pumping bass pedal tone in the middle section, and have had friends who say, I had no idea a mandolin could do that! When I pull out some ringing chord-melody piece which relies on sustain.

    Even better, using fingers instead of a pick, I can even use it any time others might use a ukulele.

    I suspect the reason people post more uke and guitar vids is the greater prevalence of such instruments, combined with the easily-followed path that others have laid out for such use.
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  10. #33
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Heddinger View Post
    My guess is that the two questions are pretty closely related.

    Think about it - there are obvious reasons why, but most popular music is written on piano, guitar, and occasionally violin. So people who like that kind of music generally play those instruments. I don't think many people out there learn an instrument because they like the sound. My bet is most people learn an instrument because the music they like features said instrument.
    Well there is a vicious circle here. If hardly anyone plays mandolin, the number of professional grade mandolinists declines, and music writers and producers, even enlightened ones who think of the mandolin, are discouraged from putting mandolin into a piece unless they can find someone good enough and afford that person.

    That leads to relatively few mandolinners appearing in the music, so fewer youngsters hear the mandolin and get inspired to play it... and so on.

    And there likely is an even tighter circle, that music producers want their music to sell, and be popular, so they might tend to include only the popular instruments, which leads to less mandolin in music so it stays relatively unpopular and.... and so on.
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  11. #34
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Be careful what you wish for, I say. I am quite sure many of us would not especially want to hear current pop tunes on the mandolin. We are very happy playing and listening to other kinds of music: the kinds of music that the mandolin is better suited to making, in fact. Modern pop music is aimed almost exclusively at masses of teenagers (and near-teens) with disposable income to spend. It is driven by economic concerns even more than aesthetic ones. Folk, jazz, and classical music, on the other hand, cater to rather different audiences. Same for blues and rock these days, too.
    Last edited by sblock; Mar-31-2017 at 7:31pm.

  12. #35
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    But look at the ubiquitous harp (for *quiet* instruments). Yes, it has other virtues too, but just pointing out the avid use of *quiet* dynamics, too.
    Well, none of those videos exactly qualify for pop music. You do see some harps in pop music, usually because of the visual stage dynamics they add. During the last few seasons of American Idol, the string sections became the norm, and the flailing guitarist became more rare. The strings add that rich pop sound, and most importantly, a string section on stage looks cool. A synth could easily take that part, but 6-8 strings look awesome and soulful. Throw in a harp player and now it's a great stage look. Throw in a mandolin player and there's some guy with a tiny guitar. What the heck is he doing up there.

    When you're thinking current pop music, as in right now, think visual. EVERYTHING gets released with an "official" youtube video. Esoteric is irrelevant unless it looks cool and adds to the atmosphere of the video. There's not one tune where two synth players couldn't take care of all the instruments, but that wouldn't work for a video.

    Nope, mandolin is stuck in the niche category, too soft and high a tone, not enough rich sustain.

    But I don't agree that fewer people will play it down the road because it doesn't get used in pop circles. I look around and see more acoustic or Americana or alt-folk bands that ever, especially populated by young players, and the mandolin family appears frequently. That's niche music, too, but in terms of exposure, I see it growing bit by bit.

  13. #36
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Heddinger View Post
    Whenever play for my friends they always comment on how cool my instrument is.


    I have never, ever heard this. From anyone. Ever. I am moving to Ann Arbor.
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  14. #37
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    I'm with those who say it's the high voice of the mandolin and lack of sustain.
    High voice? It is the exact same tuning as the violin. If pop music works in the violin's range, it works with the mandolin just the same.
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    There's not a lot of pop music for the violin, either! You occasionally hear violin backing (or synthesized violin, more likely!), but rarely if ever is it the main instrument in any pop piece.

  16. #39

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    Well, none of those videos exactly qualify for pop music...
    Rather than just the more recent manifestations, I was thinking more of a broader milieu - all the shows, soundtrack work, film scores, all that (mentioned in the OP). The snippets of "Frozen' I've heard - seemed like there's harp throughout. Sheesh, I can only imagine how much harp must be on a soundtrack like "Titanic" with its melodramatic fare. I was thinking of this the other day - as I was hearing harp on everything my kids were watching over Spring break (typically orchestral, but of course more contemporaneously we have copious amount of 'celtic' harp with all the recent popularity of all things 'celtic').

    Bass clarinet is another one - try watching star trek, sci fi, suspense thrillers, et al without hearing one..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    High voice? It is the exact same tuning as the violin. If pop music works in the violin's range, it works with the mandolin just the same.
    Ya, there's something about the timbre specific to mandolin - apart from its range - that some find problematic.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Mar-31-2017 at 9:02pm.

  17. #40

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    I have one more thought.

    On a different instrument-centered forum, which I'll refer to as "The Banjo Clubhouse," there have been some hardcore bluegrass traditionalists who have rapidly and aggressively gone after those who are not approaching banjo from the viewpoint of 5-string traditional bluegrass. While some members were very happy when Taylor Swift featured a banjo as part of her Grammy performance, some very vocal ones were angry that she was making music which appealed to a different market than their own.

    Fortunately, the Mandolin Cafe doesn't have a lot of such discussions, but there are definitely those who do not welcome non-bluegrass mandolin, with some going so far as to actively discourage it.

    When one contingent says loudly that an instrument isn't for a certain usage, while another instrument is most welcomed into that usage, it becomes a matter of some of an instrument's fans acting as unappointed guardians to how an instrument can being utilized... and how it can't.
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  18. #41

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ...But I don't agree that fewer people will play it down the road because it doesn't get used in pop circles. I look around and see more acoustic or Americana or alt-folk bands that ever, especially populated by young players, and the mandolin family appears frequently. That's niche music, too, but in terms of exposure, I see it growing bit by bit.
    Certainly, I agree, mandolin popularity will continue to grow. However (using uke as a comparison), I think there are aspects of mndln that inherently are obstacles to its wider growth/application. As abundantly popular and prevalent as American folk/alt/DIY et al (which also has its share of ukulele content) appears to us, I think it's still but a small ratio compared to the use of ukuleles, in their myriad forms, extant in Latin cultures - which appear to be increasing worldwide - to say nothing of all the dilettante applications of ukes and small guitars. It seems that the mandolin's popularity is heavily concentrated among white/anglo populations.

    *Speaking trends here .. we see Thile and 'Acoustic Uber-jazzgrass' and cool old-time/country/blues//jazz/NOLA derivations (my personal favorite), but that Latin television dance/cumbia/fusion/hip-hop/salsa/pop stuff is happening!

    Anyway, just my observation - could be entirely incorrect.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Mar-31-2017 at 10:27pm.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

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  20. #43
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    These days, pop hits are being manufactured in assembly-line fashion according to a strict formula by a bunch of middle-aged Swedish guys with computers. This process doesn't require any actual instruments at all, just a vocalist who looks good doing choreography in tight clothes.
    Just in case anyone thought I was kidding: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...harade/403192/
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Charlieshafer I present you the wonderfully enthusiastic and definitely pop oriented Ljubljana Mandolin Orchestra (Orkester Mandolina Ljubljana)
    https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCWWZtGTDnTTb_ZZtPqi_6qw







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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Here's one for your new MANDOLIN-heavy "hit" single...... (Lyrics could be about this very topic....?)


  23. #46
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    Charlieshafer I present you the wonderfully enthusiastic and definitely pop oriented Ljubljana Mandolin Orchestra (Orkester Mandolina Ljubljana)
    And these are on every 6th grade girls iPod! Nah, just kidding. I love those clips you put up. Same as Catmandu's. But Mike's are more in line with what I think we're talking about when we mention pop music. It's Adele, or Beyonce, or, maybe a better way of putting it, it's the equivalent of the Monkees when we were kids. Even Rory Gallagher, wile blues/rock, isn't pop. So Mike's videos are more what I would think was in line with the O.P. The bummer is that they're all 30 years old.

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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    The thing is by playing the mandolin as a general trait we've already self-selected as people who like the esoteric, minority activity and taste.
    It would be a fluke if mainstream came from here.
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  25. #48

    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    ...what I think we're talking about when we mention pop music. It's Adele, or Beyonce, or, maybe a better way of putting it, it's the equivalent of the Monkees when we were kids...
    This draws a nice comparison between today's 'pop' and that of later 20th C. A mandolin might have had better chance in the folky/skiffle-rock milieu of Monkee's-era pop than in today's slick-produced ballad/dance/techno pop - much of which sounds akin with what I hear emanating from movie soundtracks. I think much of it probably does derive from 'cinema' production - just as 50-75 years prior. Today's genre is tech-heavy, highly produced synthesis of elements ranging from symphonics to hip-hop (in fact, that sounds to me like an apt descriptor for what I hear my kids listening to - symphonic hip-hop). Today there's also prevalent use of what I'd call 'ethno'-pop - typical sounds from various traditions (such as 'celtic' harp, pipes, whistle, etc) - trad instruments 'signifying' the forms for commercial use.

  26. #49
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Today's genre is tech-heavy, highly produced synthesis of elements ranging from symphonics to hip-hop (in fact, that sounds to me like an apt descriptor for what I hear my kids listening to - symphonic hip-hop). Today there's also prevalent use of what I'd call 'ethno'-pop - typical sounds from various traditions (such as 'celtic' harp, pipes, whistle, etc) - trad instruments 'signifying' the forms for commercial use.
    "Symphonic hip-hop" That is one perfect and superb description. I love that. And yeah, there are lots of folkie sonic "quotes" injected into a lot of pop as well. Sting certainly falls into the group of stuffing some pipes or Celtic bits into tunes. I would be tempted to say it's just musicians trying to be too cool for the room, but if somewhere, some kid hears that and it opens up a whole world they never knew of before, it's worth it. But even Sting has moved out of the mainstream and into that "new age" sort of music. Windham Hill made who knows how much money off guys who stuck whale sounds into their music.

    It really does come down to the visual production-worthiness of pop music now. As Cat says, it's a cinema production. Just listening to some of these tunes doesn't do much for you unless you see the dancing, the urban or rural environment that the video is set in. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of bland sound with a vocalist belting out every note as hard as possible. I guess the one thing missing from the current pop music is nuance and volume dynamics. It's hard to tell them apart, but I'm sure that our parents said the same thing about Herman's Hermits, The Dave Clark Five, and the Loving Spoonful.

    Eh, who knows, but the folk-pop era is gone, at least temporarily, and right now, the mandolin just doesn't fit into the current style of pop. That's fine, it's alive and well elsewhere.

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  28. #50
    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why popular hit songs are rare in mandolin?

    Over the last couple of years I've been, as a volunteer, cataloging mandolin music from the stacks at the Library of Congress. Ninety-nine percent of the thousands of pieces of uncataloged mando music is from circa 1890-1910. There wasn't a popular tune in those days that didn't end up with a piece of mando sheet music. Waltzes, marches, schottisches, mazurkas, songs, show tunes, minstrel pieces, ragtime, opera arias, Victorian schmaltz were all transformed into music for solo mando, duets, trios, mando clubs, etc. The most popular pieces were arranged over and over by various artists including some of the great names like Abt, Pettine, Stauffer.

    So what happened? Following the Great War, society changed in many ways. Due to newly affordable and available technology, musical entertainment no longer depended do-it-yourself gatherings. By the end of the twenties ... etc. The effect of technology on music making over the next decades was staggering. Popular music itself changed, especially once we reached the fifties. And by the time we get to the eighties, well, "tunes" ain't what they used to be; when was the last time a mazurka made it to the top of any list?

    And, of course, by the eighties the mandolin ain't what it used to be. Mandos had morphed into, well, quaint reminders of grandparents and the countries from which they arrived. Thanks to the changes in popular musical tastes, other instruments came to the fore. Yeah, many other socio and economic factors, as catmandu2 notes, all fairly obvious, are involved, enough for a doctoral dissertation ... so I'll sign off here.

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