How does the tab change when there is a lilt?

[red7flag]

I am curious how the tab changes when you add a lilt to tune. For example, when playing Fisher's Hornpipe "straight" you play pretty much eight notes (maybe quarter). How do these change when playing with a lift CHATtaNOOga or WAterMElon timing?

[David L]

"Lilt" can mean changing to "swing" eighth-notes, or it can mean adding an accent pattern (CHATaNOOga). Either way, the notation can stay the same, just interpreted differently. Sometimes the word "swing" or "swing eighth-notes" is written at the beginning. Lots of swing tunes are written with regular eighth-notes, but they are swung when played. The same is true of hornpipes. It is more of an aspect of style than notation (whether notes or tab).

[red7flag]

So if I have you correct, the swing eight notes are triplets long and short leaving out the second note. Accent pattern is more an issue of emphasis. I may have this really wrong.

[Mark Gunter]

So if I have you correct, the swing eight notes are triplets long and short leaving out the second note. Accent pattern is more an issue of emphasis. I may have this really wrong.

Not necessarily wrong, a swing rhythm is often interpreted just as you described, triplets with a skipped note, just not usually written that way to show a swing rhythm. Usually it is noted at the top of the score as "Swing Rhythm" or some such, and written as straight eighths.

[JeffD]

In standard notation I have seen hornpipes written out with dotted eighth note - sixteenth note. Not often but I have seen it. I suppose that could be done in tab as well.

[foldedpath]

A hornpipe like Fisher's is usually played straight 4/4 ("flattened out") in a Bluegrass band, and with more bounce in an Irish session. Same tune, almost always the same notation in the dots or a Tab version.

Even in an Irish session, you'll hear it played with different amounts of bounce or swing in different sessions, so there isn't much point in notating it with dotted 8ths. The swing can be heavy or barely there, depending on the local tradition. It's up to the player to know what genre they're in, and how to interpret the source.

[red7flag]

Thank you all. Your answers are really helpful. When working out this question, I played a number of tunes with bounce and found that my speed dramatically slowed down. Any tips for getting lilt up to speed? Now a second question, how would you play a "shuffle" (Emmylou Harris plays a bunch of these)?

[David L]

Thank you all. Your answers are really helpful. When working out this question, I played a number of tunes with bounce and found that my speed dramatically slowed down. Any tips for getting lilt up to speed? Now a second question, how would you play a "shuffle" (Emmylou Harris plays a bunch of these)?

For a drummer, the difference between "swing" and "shuffle" is this: "Swing" has a quarter note on 1 and 3 and swing eighths on 2 and 4 (dah dit-ka dah dit-ka). "Shuffle" has a pair of swing eighths on all four beats (dit-ka dit-ka dit-ka dit-ka). There's not really a lot of difference, otherwise.

[foldedpath]

When working out this question, I played a number of tunes with bounce and found that my speed dramatically slowed down. Any tips for getting lilt up to speed?

Well, there's a built-in speed limit for the swing feel in a hornpipe. You need enough room to get the bounce between the notes, so it might be that you're pushing the tempo too fast for the tune. If it's not that, then just the usual advice to keep working at it.

There's no hard and fast rule for hornpipe tempos in an Irish session, but I think somewhere around 80 bpm (counted as 2/2) is the fastest I hear them played locally. Much more than that, and there just isn't room between notes, and you start to get into flattened-out Bluegrass territory. The hornpipe is a dance, after all, that traditionally would require a slow enough tempo to get all the tricky footwork in.

Just for fun, here's a video clip of how a hornpipe used to be danced, at a very relaxed tempo to give the dancer's feet room to show off (I'm having trouble embedding this for some reason, so it's just a link):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA

[red7flag]

Great information everyone. Now time to work on it.

[JeffD]

Well, there's a built-in speed limit for the swing feel in a hornpipe. You need enough room to get the bounce between the notes, so it might be that you're pushing the tempo too fast for the tune.

Yes. I think most hornpipes are played too fast. Sounding too much (IMO) like a reel.

I have a friend who likes to play hot fiddle tunes. So much so that he has a tendency turns everything into a hot fiddle tune.

I have had the opposite tendency: tending to give tunes the hornpipe bounce, even if they are a reel. Just as inappropriate IMO.

[sblock]

Swing or "lilting" rhythms (and suchlike) are all considered to be a form of syncopation. More often than not, they are not explicitly notated, but are adopted by the player during performance, who understands the genre. And the degree of syncopation may vary with the tempo, as others have noted. Alternatively, the sheet music might provide an explicit guide to the rhythmic feel in the playing instructions at the top, which might say "hornpipe rhythm" or "reel" or "swing rhythm" or "shuffle rhythm" or "funk rhythm", and so on. In notation, the rhythmic feel, if particularly strong, can also be noted all the way through, by replacing groups of straight notes with dotted and undotted ones. But this can quickly get cumbersome and is not usually done! Finally, in standard notation, there is a way to denote the rhythmic feel at the top of the sheet, by using an indication like this one:



This example indicates "swing eighths." It should be self-explanatory.

If you are using a program like TablEdit, you can get it to produce this graphic for you in the printed notation (but it does not appear onscreen). Set the playback syncopation (under MIDI options) to "swing eights" and it will appear on the printed output in the upper left-hand corner.

[foldedpath]

Finally, in standard notation, there is a way to denote the rhythmic feel at the top of the sheet, by using an indication like this one:
This example indicates "swing eighths." It should be self-explanatory.

If you are using a program like TablEdit, you can get it to produce this graphic for you in the printed notation (but it does not appear onscreen). Set the playback syncopation (under MIDI options) to "swing eights" and it will appear on the printed output in the upper left-hand corner.

It's possible, but I don't think it's a great idea to lock down the rhythm feel in notation or comments for "fiddle tunes" that can be played in different genres. Let's take an example like "The Merry Blacksmith" reel:

In local Oldtime jams, the "Merry Blacksmith" reel is a crossover tune played with a swing feel, at a slow enough tempo to get that bounce in. It sounds great in that context!

In local Irish/Scottish trad sessions, that same reel is played with a straight-ahead pulse without swing, which is the only way you can do it and hit a typical reel tempo like 112 bpm (counted as 2/2). I've played it at that tempo in a Scottish Dance Band workshop, and believe me... there is no room to swing it when the notes are coming that fast and furious. There is a different pulse instead, on the 1 and 3 beats.

When "fiddle tunes" cross so many genres and are played in different styles, I don't think it makes sense to lock down the swing feel (or not) in Tab, or sheet music notes. Not unless you're doing something like writing a tutor for a specific style of music. In general terms, I think it needs to be left up to the player to know how a fiddle tune is interpreted in their chosen genre.

[Mark Gunter]

It's possible, but I don't think it's a great idea to lock down the rhythm feel in notation or comments for "fiddle tunes" that can be played in different genres. Let's take an example like "The Merry Blacksmith" reel:

In local Oldtime jams, the "Merry Blacksmith" reel is a crossover tune played with a swing feel, at a slow enough tempo to get that bounce in. It sounds great in that context!

In local Irish/Scottish trad sessions, that same reel is played with a straight-ahead pulse without swing, which is the only way you can do it and hit a typical reel tempo like 112 bpm (counted as 2/2). I've played it at that tempo in a Scottish Dance Band workshop, and believe me... there is no room to swing it when the notes are coming that fast and furious. There is a different pulse instead, on the 1 and 3 beats.

When "fiddle tunes" cross so many genres and are played in different styles, I don't think it makes sense to lock down the swing feel (or not) in Tab, or sheet music notes. Not unless you're doing something like writing a tutor for a specific style of music. In general terms, I think it needs to be left up to the player to know how a fiddle tune is interpreted in their chosen genre.

It's a good point, but maybe not understood across the board, especially for newbies, thus the OP's question to start with. In the end, it's the transcriber or author's choice on how to notate things about "the feel" or whether to notate this at all.

Also, Jeff re: #11 above - as usual I have to play Devil's Advocate on it, you stated "IMO", but I just want to throw in 2 cents, it is not necessarily inappropriate to change the rhythm on any piece of music a musician wants to play with. Would be inappropriate in certain circumstances and settings, but not intrinsically inappropriate. I might like to add a bit of swing to tunes that are normally played straight and I see nothing wrong with that, unless I'm playing in a jam situation, or just don't know the difference.

[foldedpath]

It's a good point, but maybe not understood across the board, especially for newbies, thus the OP's question to start with. In the end, it's the transcriber or author's choice on how to notate things about "the feel" or whether to notate this at all.

I still maintain that unless it's a tutorial about "How to Play X Music" it's a bad idea to notate a rhythm feel for fiddle tunes that can cross so many genres like OldTime, Bluegrass, Irish, Scottish, and all the rest, that share the same cultural heritage.

In the end, you're better off listening to a good recording of a great player performing the tune anyway. The sheet music or Tab can get you started, but it's a poor sketch of the real thing.

[sblock]

I still maintain that unless it's a tutorial about "How to Play X Music" it's a bad idea to notate a rhythm feel for fiddle tunes that can cross so many genres like OldTime, Bluegrass, Irish, Scottish, and all the rest, that share the same cultural heritage.

In the end, you're better off listening to a good recording of a great player performing the tune anyway. The sheet music or Tab can get you started, but it's a poor sketch of the real thing.

I guess I'll have to disagree with you about that -- and pretty strongly, I'm afraid. It is no more a "bad idea" to specify the rhythm for a piece than it is a "bad idea" to specify the melody for the piece! Making music involves playing both the melody and the rhythm, not just the one or the other. Furthermore, standard musical notation was developed to handle BOTH, not just the one or the other. And the level of notation can range from extremely spare to highly elaborate: this choice is entirely up to the transcriber, arranger, or composer.

Just as you can choose to put in, or to leave out, various melodic variations (for example, different ornamentations, variations, repeats, etc.) when transcribing a fiddle tune in notation, you can also choose to put in, or to leave out, various bits of rhythmic information. There are several well-established ways of putting those rhythmic instructions into notation, in fact -- please refer to my earlier post. If you really want to capture the flavor of the performance, you are well advised to take full advantage of the music-writing tools at your disposal! Some of us LIKE to see full transcriptions with examples of various melodic variations or interesting notations written down, and not left entirely to the imagination. We LIKE to know that it's played a certain way in a certain region (and maybe by a certain player). And that may be as close to being there as we'll get, particularly when that player may be long dead! Yes, I agree with you that listening to a recording might be even better, but unfortunately that is not always possible, and besides, there are vastly more written tunes (in notation) than recorded tunes available, in any case.

It is plain silly, to my mind, to suggest that transcribing the rhythmic feel is any more undesirable than transcribing the melodic variations. It is certainly true that a lot of old Irish tune collections in books only have only the barest possible transcriptions, and are missing almost all of the (often regional) melodic and rhythmic variations that make this music so very interesting. And they are all the poorer for it! That is why there are active websites like The Session that help to fill in those lamentable gaps, with many different local, melodic variations of the tune being made available.

When you annotate the suggested speed (in BPM, or using Italian words like "moderato"), you also wind up affecting the rhythmic feel, just as you pointed out. This is inevitable. But when the arranger is suggesting a slower tempo in a transcription, it is certainly reasonable to suggest a "lilt" or swing feel, along with it! What's wrong with that, I ask?! And if people choose to play it faster, then they can choose to lose the swing feel and go for more drive. In the very same vein, they can also choose to lose the tonal complexity and simplify the melody -- or just repeat some of the notes, as Bill Monroe rather (in)famously did. But none of that has anything whatsoever to do with whether it's a good idea or a bad idea to specify the desired rhythm when transcribing a piece! Players are always free to ignore any aspect of the notation they wish, be it the melody or the rhythm. But as for me, I like to see transcriptions that are replete with useful information. It doesn't have to be a "poor sketch" of the real thing (as you wrote) when it's done carefully -- except that it's often not done carefully. It's usually done quickly and even sloppily. Anyway, once I've come to know/learn a given sub-genre well, I can make up my own, newly-educated mind about what I want to keep and what I want to ignore in the performance, be it melody or rhythm. But generally speaking, musical information in a transcribed piece is a good thing; not a bad thing!!

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

[JeffD]

Of course one can play any tune any way one wants. Play it slow, fast, swing, straight up, whatever you want. There is no such thing as "playing it right" in the ultimate sense. No law, or cops to enforce one.

But certain audiences may expect certain things, and your decisions have consequences. If you go to an old timey jam and play Dry and Dusty all swingy and bluegrassy like Kenny Baker, and not old timey like the Morrison Brothers who (if I am not mistaken) first recorded it, well it may not be as well received. If you play Dry and Dusty like an old time tune, as your bluegrass break, instead of the was Kenny Baker did for Bill Monroe, well, it may not be as well received. Not be as effective. Not get the response you were hoping for.

If the dancers know what a hornpipe is and know the next tune is called such and such hornpipe and you don't play it like a hornpipe, there may well be some disappointment. (Often enough they don't know and/or don't care.)

If you play a reel, say Reel de Montreal, with a swingingly syncopated rhythm, in a jam of French Canadian fiddle tunes, you will get a few eyebrows.

If you are departing from the "standard" interpretation of that kind of tune as a musical statement and expression of creativity - more power to you. I played classical music composed for mandolin on a Fender mando-strat.

If you are departing from the "standard" interpretation of that kind of tune because you didn't know, well that's not can be problematical.

[JeffD]

I do a lot of sight reading of fiddle tunes, from fiddle tune books. My preference is for those where the tunes are grouped by type, reels, hornpipes, strathspeys, single jigs, double jigs, waltzes, slow aires, whatever. Because for me the hardest thing is to get the rhythm, and so once I have it, I can go down the page and the tunes of the same type will be much easier for me to sight read.

It is my preference that the intended rhythm be notated or at least indicated. Though in the particular case of a hornpipe, if it is called a hornpipe I know generally what to expect. (Unlike say a rag, which has some very specific characteristics, but so many tunes that aren't rags have the word "rag" in the name one can go nuts. Poppy Leaf Rag, for example is really a hornpipe.)


But given that everyone knows that anyone can play anything any way they want, I don't think indicating the intended rhythm limits anyone at all.

[foldedpath]

I guess I'll have to disagree with you about that -- and pretty strongly, I'm afraid. It is no more a "bad idea" to specify the rhythm for a piece than it is a "bad idea" to specify the melody for the piece! Making music involves playing both the melody and the rhythm, not just the one or the other. Furthermore, standard musical notation was developed to handle BOTH, not just the one or the other. And the level of notation can range from extremely spare to highly elaborate: this choice is entirely up to the transcriber, arranger, or composer.

Okay, I will disagree just as strongly, with respect, because that's the fun of a forum like this.

When you annotate the suggested speed (in BPM, or using Italian words like "moderato"), you also wind up affecting the rhythmic feel, just as you pointed out. This is inevitable. But when the arranger is suggesting a slower tempo in a transcription, it is certainly reasonable to suggest a "lilt" or swing feel, along with it! What's wrong with that, I ask?!

I don't know a better way to say this, so I'll say it anyway. It risks exposing one's ignorance of the different traditions involved, and the different ways a single traditional tune can move through different genres and styles over the years.

If we're talking about a modern composer, sure. Follow the dots and anything they want to put in there for interpretation. Trad tunes are a little different, especially ones hundreds of years old and have managed to be picked up in different genres. We don't have an "arranger" to follow for these tunes. And it would be terrible if we did, because it wouldn't allow for all the wonderful variations like "Fisher's Hornpipe" played in a traditional style, or in blazing Bluegrass speed in a Thile/Marshall mandolin duet. Or the "Merry Blacksmith" reel played at the same tempo with bounce and swing in an OldTime session, or at an intermediate Irish session with zero swing feel. Why try to notate that and lock it down to one, or the other?

I do a lot of sight reading of fiddle tunes, from fiddle tune books. My preference is for those where the tunes are grouped by type, reels, hornpipes, strathspeys, single jigs, double jigs, waltzes, slow aires, whatever. Because for me the hardest thing is to get the rhythm, and so once I have it, I can go down the page and the tunes of the same type will be much easier for me to sight read.

It is my preference that the intended rhythm be notated or at least indicated. Though in the particular case of a hornpipe, if it is called a hornpipe I know generally what to expect. (Unlike say a rag, which has some very specific characteristics, but so many tunes that aren't rags have the word "rag" in the name one can go nuts. Poppy Leaf Rag, for example is really a hornpipe.)

Well, even that can throw you off if you're not familiar with genre conventions. I know that hornpipes are flattened out to play faster in Bluegrass, and I know they're swung more in Irish sessions. Although that can vary a LOT from Irish session to session. Not every group of players swings hornpipes the same way, or at all.

Then recently, I started getting into working up Scottish pipe tunes on the mandolin, because one local session is somewhat piper-heavy. Apparently, "Hornpipe" means something different to Scottish pipers. I've been learning a couple of tunes recently -- "From Maui to Kona" and "Ian Green of Greentrax" -- that are both called Hornpipes. But they have zero swing when you hear them played by pipers (and I mean the really good ones). They don't have that signature two-part "thump thump" at the end either, like Irish hornpipes. They sound like marches to me, and I'm still trying to get my head around it. It's just a different trad genre, and every one requires a pretty deep dive to learn and understand the conventions.

Ear education is a big part of this journey when dealing with "trad" music, and you're not going to get it from reading annotation on sheet music or Tab.

[red7flag]

When I started this thread, I did not expect the complexity of answers and divergence of concepts. I found this thread to be a fascinating conversation. I have learned a great deal and like most knowledge, I am now aware of how much more I need to learn. Thank you for your insights.

[JeffD]

When I started this thread, I did not expect the complexity of answers and divergence of concepts. I found this thread to be a fascinating conversation. I have learned a great deal and like most knowledge, I am now aware of how much more I need to learn. Thank you for your insights.

Well then, all of our cantankerousness and enthusiastic disagreement has paid off. You may still be confused, but you are confused at a much higher level about much more important things.

[Beanzy]

Sugar>