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Thread: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

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    Default Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    I'm curious, there is generally quite a bit of discussion about the high-end builders and how they compare (e.g. Heiden, Ellis, Gilchrist, Nugget, Apitius, Red Diamond), but I don't see the Harvey Master Models brought into the conversation much.

    Any thoughts how they fit into the group above sounds, action, etc.? This isn't about "which is better," I'm just wondering where folks think they fit in the mix. Haven't seen them mentioned much.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    I think it's the difference between individual/small shop builders and a large manufacturing company as perceived by the mandolin buying public. They're not quite apples to apples comparisons. It may depend on the era Gibson, i.e. Charlie Derrington has achieved an almost mythical reputation whereas Dave Harvey is the current guy whose reputation is a work in progress.

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    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Gibson's mandolin division for all practical purposes is a small shop. I think Dave Harvey has maybe 4-5 people on his staff, certainly comparable to what you would find at Collings, maybe Ellis...as far as Master Models, they're treated in respect to different eras: namely Derrington vs Harvey. Charlie Derrington among other things believed he had perfected/duplicated Loar's varnish formula, and it went to the grave with him. There's definitely a significant difference in the varnish/application now, as you can see it on the new ones. As far as quality, I've played Derrington era ones that were great, I've played Sierra Hull's which is a Dave Harvey Master Model, and it's a dandy...you pays your money you takes your chances...I do believe that the Distressed Master Models have the most cred as being closest thing to a Loar, and most of them were Derrington era...YMMV
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Dave has stayed with the traditional neck configuration, and think Red Diamond too(?), but others who otherwise generally try in some models to emulate the Loars (Gil, Ellis, others?) still have gone to larger frets, radius. But still going for the sound. Also other Gibsons have radius, but not MM's. I wonder in a blind "average" test if people could distinguish between say MM, Red D., Gil, etc.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Pick View Post
    ...I wonder in a blind "average" test if people could distinguish between say MM, Red D., Gil, etc.
    Do you mean playing, hearing or both?

    That would be interesting!
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    I was thinking mainly hearing, but since you mention it I'd say playing too.

    For me the jury is out on the fingerboard radius/fret size debate, although radius and frets other than the thinner traditional ones seem more popular.

    I'm on the Cafe more than I should admit, and just seem to see more about other high end models these days than MM's. That's not at all meant to be a negative towards MM's, I know they're outstanding. Maybe their marketing and such is more low key.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNick View Post
    , I've played Sierra Hull's which is a Dave Harvey Master Model, and it's a dandy
    Wow!

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Pick View Post

    I'm on the Cafe more than I should admit, and just seem to see more about other high end models these days than MM's. That's not at all meant to be a negative towards MM's, I know they're outstanding. Maybe their marketing and such is more low key.
    I hadnt thought about it before but now that you mention it, I agree with you. For upper end mando's, you dont hear much talk about the Gibson MM's from the regular forum folks. Occasionally someone posts a publicity pic of David Harvey and a new mando often with a celeb but not so much member posts. Mostly we hear talk about Ellis's, Gil's, Nuggets, Kimbles, Red Diamnonds, Collings, and even more so all the intermediates Pava, Collings, Silver Angels, Northfields, Kentuckys and lots of entry level mando discussion. ...I guess Gibson is just making so few now. I mean they are always talked highly of when mentioned, just not mentioned as much as you'd think. How many instruments do they make a year compered to say Ellis ?
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    ...A couple of additional observations,

    Stephen Gilchrist mixes it up all the time, check his web sit out. He does flat boards, radius boards, fat frets, narrow frets and on and on. http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/serialnumbers/ I played one Model 5 that had a flat board and narrow EVO frets.

    Here is a mandolin that Dave Harvey made and signed in January of 2009 that went way outside Gibson's comfort zone. For some reason these days it is politicly incorrect to favor any "big corporation," hence Gibson isn't considered a player. Too bad because as DataNick points out above the mandolin shop these days is quiet modest with D. Harvey at the helm.



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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    And I wonder how many high digit mandolins are actually being sold these days with money so dear and uber priced mandolins ever more prevalent?
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    ....I guess Gibson is just making so few now. I mean they are always talked highly of when mentioned, just not mentioned as much as you'd think. How many instruments do they make a year compered to say Ellis ?

    I estimate that Gibson is producing 65 +or- 5 mandolins a year of which about 6-8 are Master Models...I don't know about Ellis, but the info is somewhere on a thread on the Cafe that I saw awhile back, and the number was close to Gibson IIRC
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Miller View Post
    Wow!
    Appreciate the sentiment, but it's not as much of a wow as you think.

    Bluegrass pros are pretty accessible at festivals; especially if your band is playing the same festival, you'll meet people just hanging out in the green room. I literally bumped into Sierra while she was making her way back from teaching a workshop, and we mandogeeked for about 15 min, took pictures, played each other's axe...she's pretty down to earth.

    BTW: in her viewpoint, her Master Model compares favorably to the better Loars she has played.

    They say if there's no pics or video it didn't happen, soooo:

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    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
    Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Rather ironic to say the Gibson MM is not included, when if it were not for the genius of the 1922 Gibson F5, these other high end builders likely would not be making any mandolins at all, let alone a Gibson "style" F5. It goes with saying that not everyone can own a Gibson F5 because they ain't that many to go around. It still boggles my mind to wonder where are all these F5 style mandolins going to? Are there that many mandolin pickers in the world to sustain that market? I guess it's because I'm old enough to remember when if you wanted a Gibson F5 style mandolin you ordered one from Gibson and waited 1 to 2 years to get one from your local Gibson dealer. Saying Sierra thinks her newer MM is as good or better than Loars she has played is kinda like the Dawg saying he prefers those 80's Kentucky models over his Fern or Loar. NOT! Pros are going to get the tone out of any good instrument. The rest of us, not so much! When compared to other high ends by independent builders, the Gibson MM is pretty much a standard "as is" F5 style, while those others will custom make anything you want for the right price. I've got a CD MM and love it. Also got a '23 F5 and love it. It's all about what works best for you and for sure the new Gibson MM should not be ruled out for any reason.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by f5loar View Post
    ...Saying Sierra thinks her newer MM is as good or better than Loars she has played is kinda like the Dawg saying he prefers those 80's Kentucky models over his Fern or Loar. NOT! Pros are going to get the tone out of any good instrument. The rest of us, not so much!...
    To be fair f5loar, Sierra said her MM is "comparable" to the better Loars she has played...simply means it compares or is like, not better, just similar; anyways that is what she believes, YMMV...
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    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    It may very well be that if say,a 100 of us played a good 'Loar' & Sierra's MM,the balance of choice might lie with the MM - it's personal choice !. Ronnie McCoury apparently favours his Gilchrist over 'his' particular Loar mandolin,& why shouldn't he ?.
    As F5Loar says - "It's all about what works best for you..." CORRECT Sir !,
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Personal tone preference aside, the modern Master Models and Distressed Master Models are every bit as fine of an instrument as the Red Diamond, Gils, Ellis, and Nuggets. It really comes down to the individual instrument and personal preference such as Neck dimension, etc. I have a DMM that I would never part with and know others who play the top brands who would love to have my axe. I'm at this level the individual instrument is the most important thing to consider. Not the name on the headstock.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Interesting question, Luna Pick, as those mandolins obviously have lots of folks who love 'em. I have played and heard a number of Master Models and one Distressed Master Model and the tone was really nice (one was superb) but three out of the four that I played were lacking in volume. Different strokes for different folks. The one that I did like was a really great mandolin...at least to my ears. I agree with Goose in that it doesn't matter whose name is on the headstock. If the mandolin puts a smile on your face then that's what it's all about.
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Back in the heyday of mandolin building and sales when all the top builders had lists a mile long, the Gibson MM was always part of the discussion of top tier builders. What was the MSRP on a DMM when they came out? It was over $20k if memory serves me correctly. They most certainly deserve to be spoken about with high regard. I've played many of them that I would have loved to own.

    I have not played a Harvey MM but I assume they are fine instruments. Next time I'm in PHX I need to make it over to the Mandolin Store and rectify that.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    From what i've read on here,the mandolins being produced under the guidance of Dave Harvey, are as good as any mandolins made by Gibson. The output of mandolins might not be high,but under Mr Harvey,the quality seems to have hit a high spot. I wouldn't mind driving one of his mandolins for several years (as well as a few others !). The Gibson 'Goldrush' model is particularly beautiful,
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    One of the finest sounding mandolins I ever had the privilege to play for a bit was a prototype MM that at the time lived in Marin Co. Sounded better than the Loar in the room, but my ear was pretty new still back then so who knows what I would think now.
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    I just had the opportunity to play a Dudenbostel and a Nugget at Elderly Instruments two weeks ago, they were amazing instruments but I wouldn't have traded my Master Model for either one of them. There is a power and a clarity as well as a multi level tone to each note (if that makes any sense) that my Derrington Signed Master Model has that I haven't heard before in any other modern builder.
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by carleshicks View Post
    I just had the opportunity to play a Dudenbostel and a Nugget at Elderly Instruments two weeks ago, they were amazing instruments but I wouldn't have traded my Master Model for either one of them. There is a power and a clarity as well as a multi level tone to each note (if that makes any sense) that my Derrington Signed Master Model has that I haven't heard before in any other modern builder.
    We're talking about all fabulous mandolins here, but your post got me thinking in a new way, for example when looking at the Ellis F5 Special and Gibson MM at TMS, both $10K+ but maybe there is something about the MM that sets it apart from the Ellis, and vice versa. The hands of different builders. . . While many of the non-Gibsons try to emulate Loars, still interesting then why current MM's haven't been more prominent in the thread conversations. And has been said countless times, all good, get what you like.

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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    I sold my first Ellis F5 to buy a Ricky Skaggs DMM. Then seller's remorse set in. There was something in the Ellis sound that just talked to me. I sold the RSDMM and Tom made me a new F5. Many of my player friends disagreed with selling the RSDMM for an Ellis. For me, I did not feel comfortable with the narrow neck and here was something about the sound that was just right for me. My point, at that price point, the "best" is a very personal decision. I have played a number of high dollar Loars that I would not trade even up for my Ellis (if I had to keep it).
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    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    Yeah, not to get too side-tracked but the narrower nut and flat finger board are concerns for more.

    And I have lusted for an Ellis A. The F5 with a Calton is an ultimate package.

  38. #25

    Default Re: Current Gibson Master Models and Other Top Builders?

    I think my '04 Derrington MM(not distressed) was fairly unique in that I requested a radiused board with wider frets(also side-bound). That's just what
    I have become used to playing.

    Narrow nut is a desirable trait for my hands. I like the snakehead and Loar-ish neck profiles.

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