Flat Sawn vs. Quarter Sawn Neck Block? Plywood tailblock?

[Alex Takacs]

Hello all, after building a few electric guitars, acoustic dulcimers, and an acoustic guitar, I've decided to delve into the world of mandolins. I'm building two F-Style mandos using Siminoff's book and I'm not sure whether I should use quarter sawn Mahogany or flat sawn Mahogany for the neck block. A also have a board that falls somewhere in between, with the endgrain running at about 45 degrees. My top, back, and sides are all quarter sawn with the end grain somewhere between perfectly vertical to 10 degrees off. My necks will be flat sawn. I am tempted to use a flat sawn neck block because my necks will be flat sawn and I believe that this will provide a more stable neck joint. What orientation do you fine folks thin would be ideal for use with a flat sawn neck and quartered top/sides/back?

I am also interested in using a Birch ply tailblock for stability and durability instead of a mahogany tailblock. I've seen this done multiple times on acoustic guitars, but I have yet to read about Birch ply tailblocks being used on mandolins. What is your opinion on this?

[Spruce]

OK, before we get off and rumbling, we need to define "quartersawn"...

In the violin world, this means that the grain runs parallel to the fingerboard...
In the world of Telecasters and other guitars (and sometimes mandolins), it's the opposite--grain perpendicular to the f'board.

I prefer the violin maker's way of looking at it, because that is quartersawn wood...
But folks do refer to "quartered" as exactly the opposite, too...
Both can be correct...confused yet?

Welcome to the Cafe, Alex...

[Mark Gunter]

Spruce ... ?

That is confusing to me, because to me, quartersawn vs. plainsawn vs. rift cut are three different sections of log sawing methods, regardless of which way you orient the grain in application. Your explanation seems very strange to me, especially since I know you're very knowledgeable in milling terms.

Are these terms used differently in lutherie?

[Alex Takacs]

Wow, yeah Spruce I understand, but this conversation has already turned my world upside down haha. To be more clear, the grain on the sides and neck are parallel to the fretboard while the top and back are perpendicular.

[Larry Simonson]

A neck block is somewhat square in cross section so two sides (opposite) will appear quarter sawn and the other two flat sawn (unless it is rift sawn)

[Mark Gunter]

Larry your post makes more sense I suppose, in the normal meaning of flat(plain)sawn, rift sawn and quartersawn milling. But a plain sawn block does not necessarily show quartersawn sides, the sides can appear rift sawn on a plain sawn block - depending how close to edge of the log it was milled from.

Anyway, what does this have to do with grain orientation when you make a neck block out of it? That's where I became confused.

To put the point to it: Does "quartersawn" in the violin world really mean that the grain runs parallel to the fingerboard? I've never heard it used like that, but then I'm new to lutherie.

OK, before we get off and rumbling, we need to define "quartersawn"...

In the violin world, this means that the grain runs parallel to the fingerboard...

It may just be that Bruce misspoke; it may just be my ignorance of lutherie. I'd like to understand his post.

[CarlM]

On drawing number 15 in Siminoff's book, where he has the patterns for the head and tailblock he has an arrow showing his recommendation for the grain direction in them.

His headblock is at 45 degrees and the tailblock along the length of it. The picture is more clear in defining it.

[Spruce]

It may just be that Bruce misspoke; it may just be my ignorance of lutherie. I'd like to understand his post.

Nope...

OK, there are no "quartersawn" necks in vintage Fender guitars....
(If you can find one, please post it here...)
The grain runs parallel (or skew: ////////////) to the fingerboard...never IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII...
That's because Leo only had access to slab-cut 5/4 maple (long story)...
So, those necks are all called "slab-sawn" in the Tele and guitar world (and sometimes mando world), and not "quarter-sawn"...

In the violin world, that same grain orientation--with the grain running perfectly parallel to the fingerboard--is called "quartersawn".

Both viewpoints and terminologies are correct, but just coming from different places...

(Don't ask how I know all this...)

[HoGo]

Bruce sure knows his stuff. But luthier terminology can be quite skewed depending on type of instrument we are talking about. And in common woodwork the terms of quartersawn or flatsawn is used typically depending on which cut is on the wider face of the piece.
If we wanted to be really picky than all above would be incorrect as the wood researchers would tell you that grain is the orientation of fibers of wood and that goes along the piece (or spirals or waves in some cases).
But folks use the word in so many different ways that it almost completely lost meaning. For newcomer that is always confusing and the only way to know what folks are talking about is ask for drawing or photo or detailed description...

[Bluetickhound]

If I'm understanding the OP correctly, it's not the neck in question (which is stated to be flat sawn) but the actual BLOCK that is being discussed. If that's so, then several people have recommended in the past that neck blocks be laminated with grain going in different directions, and I am in agreement with that idea. After breaking more than one block that was a solid piece I've come to the conclusion that having laminates is a much stronger proposition.

[buckhorn]

I started laminating my blocks and points when I first started building.. I use mahogany that is usually skew sawed and then cross grain before glueing .. I've started lately using 1/4 inch maple as a center filler for even more strength.. I've heard others use different types of wood for blocks but I haven't tried that.. I still use Siminoffs' grain orientation when transferring my patterns.. I still use mahogany because it is so stable , and it is porous and glue goes into the wood and not just lay on the surface....

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks for the discussion, sorry it veered away, I confess I'm still confused at the usage of the word "quartersawn" in more than one way, but at least I know it's something for me to research and learn rather than Bruce having misspoken. A few diagrams would certainly help, but it's of no consequence for now.

In my life, the word quartersawn is used to indicate the method in which a log is sawn - which produces different grain patterns in the boards - and that is the only meaning of quartersawn I've ever known in fine woodworking. I'm including a diagram of what it means to quarter saw vs. rift saw vs. plain saw below.



I never knew that violin makers and guitar makers had a different meaning for it, and I'm in the cafe's debt once again for this new discovery. There's a lot of knowledge floating around this place.

[Spruce]

But folks use the word in so many different ways that it almost completely lost meaning. For newcomer that is always confusing and the only way to know what folks are talking about is ask for drawing or photo or detailed description...

Yeah, try filling wood orders for neckwood using the word "quartersawn"...
it just ain't gonna happen.

I'm including a diagram of what it means to quarter saw vs. rift saw vs. plain saw below.

OK, those diagrams apply to logs being processed with a sawmill...
In the world of lutherie, most tops are split-out by hand (and should be--see my avatar), and some maple as well...
So-ooo, this is (or should be) the definition of "quartersawn":

[Mark Gunter]

I really like that example of quartersawn. Hmmm, about 30 minutes to lunch time around here

[billhay4]

Laminated neck and tailblock. This eliminates all issues with grain direction and results in a lighter, stronger join.
Bill

[Alex Takacs]

Thanks for the excellent answers and info everybody, this thread has proven to be much more educational than I was expecting. After reading through everyones posts and doing a bit more research into what people have reccomended, I'm going to follow what many of you have reccomended and laminate some mahogany for the head/tailblocks

[Spruce]

Thanks for the excellent answers and info everybody, this thread has proven to be much more educational than I was expecting. After reading through everyones posts and doing a bit more research into what people have reccomended, I'm going to follow what many of you have reccomended and laminate some mahogany for the head/tailblocks

Ya know, I did screw up on this thread...
I read "neck block", and was off-and-running on necks, not blocks...
But the info still applies...

[Oliver A.]

.

OK, I guess my understood definition of "quartersawn" is a bit off. In the photo above, I see the middle diagram as producing the best "on quarter" boards of the three while the right side diagram has some quartered and some "rift". The first diagram (plainsawn) yields some flatsawn, some rift-sawn and some quartersawn.

Also, I'd say Spruce's pizza represents a split wedge, which is my preference (in pizza and in spruce tops).

[sunburst]

The only drawing in that set that I agree with is the one labeled "Quartersawn". As I understand it, at the sawmill at least, "quartered" or "quartersawn" meant the log was first sawn into quarters and then the quarters sawn into lumber.
The first drawing shows "sawn through and through". Start sawing the log by slabbing one side then just continue sawing until you're through the log.
Plainsawn is not shown, as I understand the term. To me, plainsawn or slabsawn means we saw off slabs (a slab being the bark and the immediately underlying wood) on 4 sides so that we have a square cant, then saw the sides alternately, turning the cant every few cuts.
The center drawing shows what I understand to be radial sawing.

All of these terms apply only to the method of sawing, not the grain orientation in the board, though "quartersawing" yields more vertical grained boards than any other grain orientation and "slabsawing" yields only boards with the opposite grain orientation. Fact is, a board with vertical grain doesn't care how it got that way; once the board is away from the log we can't tell how it was sawed from the log, we can only see the grain orientation and for whatever reason, we must call it something, and that can definitely be a source of confusion.

[ajh]

Dammit....is going on 1am here. And I want pizza.

Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.

[Mark Gunter]

Oliver, John

I agree with all three drawings, although they are the most basic illustrations of sawing. Sawing through-and-through is most basic and least wasteful way of sawing lumber, this would be a plain sawn log and would produce wild variations in grain patterns. Yes, the closer to the center of the log will produce quarter sawn and rift sawn grain patterns mixed into these cuts. This is the most basic way of cutting a log, and will produce cathedral grain patterns most commonly associated with plain sawn lumber in the cuts near the top and bottom of the log, as well as the near perfect straight grain of rift cut lumber in the very center of the log at the sides of each board, and the quarter-sawn grain pattern of straight grain plus medial rays in the cuts nearest the center at the sides of each board.

John, I agree with what you are saying about slab sawing, but it is not represented here. This is a very basic illustration, and I believe you well know that through sawing a log will produce plain sawn lumber from the top and the bottom and is the least wasteful way of milling lumber in general.

Oliver, John is correct in that the third image there shows what is called quarter sawn; the log is quartered then sliced in that manner. Since the slices near the edge of the quarters are not perpendicular to the center of the log, quartering tends to give a flattening appearance to medial rays in the log, which produce gorgeous figuring in many species (like oak, where the medial rays tend to produce ribbons, some people call the look "tiger oak").

The center image illustrates the most wasteful way of all to saw lumber, in which an attempt is made to make the cuts all pretty perpendicular to the center. It is this method, and not quarter-sawing, that produces the straightest grain of all. The medial rays and much of the figuring due to medial rays is subdued or not present.

Sorry guys, but the three images there do not represent all the methodologies used to cut logs, and there was no intention to provide a full study of any of that, it is a very basic illustration of the three: plain sawing, rift sawing, and quarter-sawing. Since through sawing as in the first image does indeed produce wide boards that have quartersawn grain and rift sawn grain near the center of the log, the sawmill or end user can always cull any interesting grain sections from the resulting lumber.

Again, my intention of sharing the illustration was to show what my understanding of these terms are, it is a widely held understanding in the industry. My confusion as to Bruce's remarks about the definition of quartersawn, I have to chaulk up to my ignorance of lutherie. The illustration I gave of saw methods, though very much simplified, is an accurate depiction.

[Jim Hilburn]

For block sets I don't think the terms quartered and flatsawn really apply. We are talking about grain orientation of lumber.
My understanding of blocks at least in the guitar world is that you don't want to have gluing surfaces that are the end grain of the wood. Here are some blocks for an octave. you can see the end grain isn't getting glued to anything.
When it comes to an F5 this rule is pretty much out the window since there are so many gluing surfaces in so many different orientaions.

[Mark Gunter]

For block sets I don't think the terms quartered and flatsawn really apply. We are talking about grain orientation of lumber.
My understanding of blocks at least in the guitar world is that you don't want to have gluing surfaces that are the end grain of the wood. Here are some blocks for an octave. you can see the end grain isn't getting glued to anything.
When it comes to an F5 this rule is pretty much out the window since there are so many gluing surfaces in so many different orientaions.

Now that I can understand. When you're talking about grain orientation for glue surfaces, you'd not want the most important joint to rely on end grain. For me, if I were building a mandolin with a dovetail neck joint, the neck joint would be the most important one, and the mating surfaces of that joint would require that the largest (or the most area) of those surfaces have a matching grain orientation. While I'm still confused about violin makers' use of the word "quartersawn", there is no confusion in my mind as to how I would orient the block to make such a joint.

Since the end grain of the neck goes into the block, it would go into the end grain of the block, and the large edges of the tail would match the flat grain of their mating surface.

[Mark Gunter]

A picture is worth 1,000 words. To illustrate what I wrote in my last post, I went to google to find some images. Although I'm not a luthier, if I were to build a mandolin with a dovetail neck joint, I'd orient the block as illustrated below. I have very strong reasons for this having to do with the longevity of a quality build, in my opinion, due to the minuscule movements of wood over the decades, and based on many years of fine woodworking experience.

NOT LIKE THIS:


LIKE THESE:




As best I can understand from google images, that first image is from a kit someone sells - and the grain of the block runs counter to the grain of the neck, which in my opinion is poor engineering. The second image is Peter Coombe's, and the third is Troy Harris.

[HoGo]

A picture is worth 1,000 words. To illustrate what I wrote in my last post, I went to google to find some images. Although I'm not a luthier, if I were to build a mandolin with a dovetail neck joint, I'd orient the block as illustrated below. I have very strong reasons for this having to do with the longevity of a quality build, in my opinion, due to the minuscule movements of wood over the decades, and based on many years of fine woodworking experience.
As best I can understand from google images, that first image is from a kit someone sells - and the grain of the block runs counter to the grain of the neck, which in my opinion is poor engineering. The second image is Peter Coombe's, and the third is Troy Harris.

... then virtually all Martin guitars, Gibson mandolins and their clones have been made wrong for a century or so you are saying?
Typical F style block has grain running across the axis (actually not perfectly perpendicular to axis but close), Guitars typically have blocks following direction of ribs as well. on A style mandolins the orientation is typically perpendicular to axis as well.
On mandolin the most important part of neck joint is between neck heel and back button. Even if you put glue just to that part the neck would hold perfectly for decades. The dovetail sides joints are ostly there to hold the joint tight and keep the neck from coming out (on guitars there's no heel to back joint), these forces are rather small.
Grain orientation parallel to axis should be avioded on guitars as it would split way too easily with impact on neck and top/back would split as well... On A style mandolin it is acceptable as the block is rather long in the direction of grain.
Another (though not conscious) advantage of the traditional orientation is that it is easier to steam out the neck without damage to rest of instruments - the crossgrain keeps the structure more stable during steaming (block with grain parallel with top would expand greatly and easily split the top and back. I've seen that!