Introvert and extrovert

[JeffD]

I just finished reading the book entitled "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking".

Great book in general, but it got me to thinking about how music requires skills that are natural to both personalities, or, more importantly, skills uncomfortable to both personalities.

Extroverts might be much more "natural" at performing, soloing, and the like. That same extrovertism might make sitting home woodshedding a tune or practicing arpeggios very unnatural and requiring great effort.

The reverse too, someone (more like me I will say right up front), has great fun at home working on a tune and practing, but has to push and "overcome" natural hesitancies when playing in public or performing.

I have forced myself over the years to get out and jam with others, but there is still a speed bump I have to cross, where I have to kind of talk myself into it at first. I often would rather stay comfortably at home, at least momentarily, until I push myself. I always end up loving the jam, and I do it often, but I have never eliminated the speed bump.

Performing on the other hand I rarely do, and it takes much deliberate work for me to do it, and generally don't enjoy it afterwards.


So I was thinking, do you think more of us musicians are naturally extroverts that have to force ourselves to have the discipline to do the introvert stuff, the practicing and woodshedding, or natural introverts that have to force ourselves out there to do the extrovert stuff, the performing and jamming?

[Beanzy]

I'm always amazed at how many of my performing friends are actually quite introverted, even while performing.
I wonder if we just assume it needs extrovert character to get up in front of people and perform, but the reality might be that there are so many reasons to motivate people to perform, that the assumption only holds true for a segment of the more noticable performers? I know many of my theatre and music performing friends that thrive in the collective nature of the production and seem a bit discombobulated when the audience become apparent in their appreciation.
In the pop and rock world the desperate quest to find a decent front-man with the required narcissistic traits is almost a cliché.
I suspect there is a significant chunck of the performing world that do so while trying to 'hide in plain sight' of the audience.

[Mark Gunter]

got me to thinking about how music requires skills that are natural to both personalities, or, more importantly, skills uncomfortable to both personalities.

+ 1 on this, and a great topic.

I think making music appeals to more introverts, but what do I know? Only about myself, and most of the musicians I know personally, but no general knowledge. I think performers are mostly introverts, and don't mind being sidemen. I also think that a lot of front men and solo performers are introverts who learn to be comfortable performing by habitually facing their fears until they succeed at it.

[Jes Woodland]

Definitely an introvert here. I play for my own pleasure and don't want or need the approval or critique of others,I'm my own biggest critic. I like playing with others but not for others. I did play guitar in bands in my youth but have never been keen on performing for others.

[Martin Ohrt]

Hm, I believe that one can (in a way) have different sets of personalities for different occasions...
I wouldn't consider myself an extrovert in everyday live, but I sure have an extroverted "stage personality" that enjoys standing in the spotlight and talk, tell jokes and play music. This "stage personality" shines though whenever I stand in front of an audience, whether it is a gig (my hobby), or a serious, "professional" speech at the university (I'm a student of natural sciences)...

I also think that some instruments are better suited for introverts, while others are better suited for extroverts.
This has not necessarily to do with the instrument itself, but with the role the instument commonly plays in a band setting.
A bass player doesn't need to stand out, and I encountered many very calm bass players. A trumpeter in a jazzband "has" to play lead and (traditionally) has to guide the band through the tune - therefore, it took my band a great effort to convince our introvert trumpeter to discover his extrovert traits when on stage to fulfill these expectations.

And yes, I totally agree, practicing sure is something "quiet", that means good for introverts.

[John Flynn]

I have also read the book "Quiet" and I really like it. FYI, the author has a TedTalk on YouTube that is really good also.

Here is a list of introverted musical performers that may surprise some people:

• Steve Martin
• Bob Dylan
• Carly Simon
• David Bowie
• Elvis Presley
• George Harrison
• Jimi Hendrix
• Justin Timberlake
• Lady Gaga
• Kurt Cobain

I am a deep introvert, as far as the test scales go in that direction. Yet I have been in performing bands, church choirs and countless jams for over 40 years. I'm also a good public speaker and I can tell a joke pretty well. I'm a management consultant by trade and I'm able to easily be diplomatically assertive when I need to be in business situations. I'm very calm and controlled in public, but I know from some rare street confrontations, that I can turn on my "inner beast" instantly and effectively. All of those are not things many people might expect of a deep introvert.

Here are my thoughts on the OP: Introversion has more to do with how you "recharge your mental batteries" than it does your ability to perform in public. I think both introverts and extroverts can do great performing, but the extrovert will want to mingle with the crowd or party with the band afterwards, while the introvert will want to go to a quiet room for a while.

If you think about it, becoming a good musician is more of an introverted activity, because most of it is practice, listening and preparation for performance. I find that introverted nervousness about performing is my greatest motivation to practice and prepare. Introversion has made me more likely to practice past just "playing it right" to "not being able to play it wrong" or as my introverted mandolin instructor used to say, "over-practicing."

[Mandoplumb]

Definitely an introvert here. I play for my own pleasure and don't want or need the approval or critique of others,I'm my own biggest critic. I like playing with others but not for others. I did play guitar in bands in my youth but have never been keen on performing for others.

I agree with what I think Jess is saying. Some call it arrogant, and it works against one if trying to earn a living, but I play what I think is "good" music. If you like that, fine, if not I don't care, I don't play with your likes or wants in mind. Most successful singers or musicians try to figure what their audience wants and try to do that. I guess I'm an introvert because I play what interest me.

[Tobin]

Here are my thoughts on the OP: Introversion has more to do with how you "recharge your mental batteries" than it does your ability to perform in public. I think both introverts and extroverts can do great performing, but the extrovert will want to mingle with the crowd or party with the band afterwards, while the introvert will want to go to a quiet room for a while.

Yup, a lot of people misunderstand what introversion really is. They think it's just simply being shy. Like you, I'm an extreme introvert according to the tests. If I recall correctly, my Briggs Meyers personality type is INTJ, and about as far as the scale will go for an introvert. And while I am a very shy person around strangers, I can "turn on" the skills necessary to manage my employees at work, or give a speech to a crowd, etc. Being an introvert doesn't mean that a person can't interact with others or perform for a crowd. It just means that social interaction is very tiresome, for lack of a better phrase.

If I have to spend all day in a planning meeting at work, which involves constant interaction with a group, it really wears me out. More so than if I had spent all day doing physical labor. I have to have regular periods of "alone time" just to feel normal again. Extroverts, on the other hand, tend to recharge by interacting with others.

I would bet that the majority of musicians who put the time into practice to become really good are introverts. I'd stop short of saying it's necessary to be an introvert to be able to spend that much alone time practicing, but it certainly stacks the deck in the favor of the introvert, I would think.

[Mandobart]

Both John Flynn and Tobin correctly state what introvert/extrovert personality aspects are. My company used to put a lot of stock in the Myers-Briggs personality types and sent us all to more than one multi-day seminar on it. My personal opinion is personality "typing" (with four basic attributes) is just an attempt to classify people using a finer mesh filter.

The simplest approach to deciding if you are an introvert or extrovert is your answer to this question: "Which would be worse for you 1. Never being able to be alone for a long period of time or 2. Having to be alone for a long period of time?" as John said, it has to do with how you recharge. It is not about being shy vs outgoing or loud vs quiet. My answer is #1., it is worse for me when I can't get enough alone time.

By the Myers-Briggs test I'm an introvert. However I enjoy public musical performance. My job as a technical instructor requires that I spend most of each day talking to a group of people. Previous jobs required me to lead several meetings a day of senior managers. I'm sometimes considered the life of the party because I have a quick and humourous wit. I excel at these things even though I'm an introvert. I truly would rather spend more time alone. So at least in my case, either the tests or definitions of personality type are wrong or I am an introvert able to succeed at what most perceive as an extrovert.

In the final analysis, I would say there are probably 7 billion personality types in this world, not the few (10) that Myers-Briggs says there are. It would be so easy if we could simply decode people down to a handful of types and then force each person to conform to their type. Its still an analog world though, and we all occupy a band on an infinite spectrum.

[Drew Streip]

Being an introvert doesn't mean that a person can't interact with others or perform for a crowd. It just means that social interaction is very tiresome, for lack of a better phrase.

If I have to spend all day in a planning meeting at work, which involves constant interaction with a group, it really wears me out. More so than if I had spent all day doing physical labor. I have to have regular periods of "alone time" just to feel normal again. Extroverts, on the other hand, tend to recharge by interacting with others.

Exactly. It's hard to explain to people who don't have the same needs. As a fellow extreme introvert, I tend to sum it up like this:

• I love people. However, I can also entertain myself perfectly well.
• I like parties. However, when I'm done, I'm just done. No lingering.
• I'm a natural at engaging a crowd. However, I have to practice my delivery, just like I practice my instrument.

Actually, I think it's more interesting to discuss how introversion squares with being in a band. Think about constant practice sessions. Think about squeezing into a van and hitting the road for days or weeks at a time. The truly successful, great bands who manage this are probably those who can have open discussions about their individual needs -- rather than trying to "blend in" until it all blows up.

[JonZ]

I know several professional musicians who have played "at the highest levels" and none of them seem particularly introverted. One of the things they say in Jazz is that to get gigs you have to be a "good hang". If someone is going to take you on the road, you better know some good jokes.

Now, if you are talking about the 1% of pros who are the best of the best, I don't know. I suspect we tend to remember the more compelling backstories. If someone was abused as a child, we remember it. If someone had a normal childhood, we don't.

[Bertram Henze]

Introverts like to think first in order to talk about it later. Extroverts like to talk in order to find out what they are thinking.

I understand the "speed bump" metaphor, but to me it rather feels like running towards a brick wall on platform 9 3/4.

[Tobin]

Introverts like to think first in order to talk about it later. Extroverts like to talk in order to find out what they are thinking.

Heh, that aggravates my wife a lot. She knows that I have to process and think in order to form the words I want to use (especially when we are having a heated discussion). Sometimes it may take me several minutes before I answer a question or respond, and she thinks I'm just ignoring her or shutting down. But I just seem incapable of blurting out whatever first comes to my mind.

[catmandu2]

As mandobart mentioned, the taxonomies we invent and tools we administer for assessment such as the very popular Meyers Briggs inventory certainly have limitations - in that they assess behavior trends and of course all of us are many shades of grey between the 'stops' on a Likkert scale. In our quest to measure and understand, we're forced to compartmentalize experience that, in reality, is anything but. The concepts introvert/extrovert enjoy wide popular deployment (commonly in use in industrial applications, for example) but are actually originally Jungian constructs that consider much deeper aspects than reflected by the utilitarian applications we enjoy.

One reason folks engaged in creative pursuits tend toward the 'introversion' side of the scale is that the creative process itself is largely a reflective process not dependent on rational/linear experience. It's ironic that enterprise such as music, so well suited to persons who prefer isolative practice, is a form of creative expression dependent on social interaction/performance. Many players find this a necessary evil, while many too find solace in the arts as a medium of communication and engagement they would otherwise lack.

[Bertram Henze]

...and she thinks I'm just ignoring her or shutting down

In situations like that, "introvert" tends to be upgraded to "autistic"

[catmandu2]

In situations like that, "introvert" tends to be upgraded to "autistic"

The aspect of AS is interesting (to me, anyway, as I'm on the spectrum myself). Music happens to be my particular feature (common for persons on the spectrum to have particularly strong affinities, predilections, etc); I'd spent a lifetime obsessively/compulsively developing expressive skills on (any that I found) instruments, and in this serial fashion, before I began to understand it in a clinical context - I'd always thought it was just about music, but in fact that's only part of it. Now, my wife and I are both in the business, so it's much easier for me to understand my eccentricities.

Regarding much of the discussion here, I've found it much easier to cultivate and conduct a solo 'career' wrt performing. Not that solo performing is easy for me, but it mitigates the many factors involved with having to deal with collaborative efforts; among other things, I want to play ALL the instruments..

[Randi Gormley]

I've often noticed that we have a bunch of musicians in our group but only one or two performers. We certainly have musicians who wouldn't talk with the crowd for any money but noodle constantly before, during and after sets so there's a dichotomy going on there, looking for attention but ducking it at the same time ... but for one of our gigs to be really successful, someone has to perform -- tell jokes, take the microphone and start the tunes. Without a performer, our gig falls flat.

I'm personally more introvert than extrovert -- I hate parties of any kind, even family gatherings; i'm happiest when I'm on my own, even at a museum or concert or other performance; I probably wouldn't leave the house except to go buy groceries if I didn't have my music and the random book club I belong to.

But I also have a second identity who is much more comfortable in public. I've always been a fair actress because I can subsume my "real" personality in a secondary make-believe and it's this secondary personality that has been a successful reporter, public speaker and gig-performer. I still would rather play duets than solo, but I can start a tune solo if it's needed; I can take the mike at a gig if it's needed; I'm just as willing to sit in the back and just play as sit in the front and direct "traffic" as it were. so where do I fall in the spectrum, I wonder?

[JeffD]

There is a spectrum between introvert and extrovert, no doubt, like anything else in nature. And also I doubt if anyone's place on the spectrum is fixed. Perhaps over time and with experience we move towards the center, or maybe in some cases away from it.

I am skeptical about the idea existing in two locations on the spectrum. I know personally that I can, and often have to, do it all, from marketing to presenting to partying and performing all the way to studying and practicing and considering and researching and writing. And whatever skills I have developed in all these activities is not an indication of me being an introvert for some things and an extrovert for others. I think that over time we learn how to force ourselves to do things which our nature would inhibit, and we can get good at those things. We learn perhaps how we uniquely need to recharge, and how much is too much, and when and where to do what.

My knee jerk reaction would be that most musicians are extroverts yearning to perform and "get it out there", but perhaps you are right, the activities required in order to develop musical skills selects for introverts.

[soliver]

This is fun stuff for me. Not only have I recently finished a Master's Degree in Counseling and spent time working to understand the things that make us tick, and sometimes the things that make us HAVE a tic, as well as the ways with which we cope with and work our way through any given scenario, BUT I ALSO feel like the issues of introversion and extroversion are constantly the topic of discussion, and I frankly enjoy it. I'm loving hearing all the points of view.

I agree with the assessment of many and have also heard/read about how introversion and extroversion are frequently defined as terms to describe how an individual recharges. I categorize myself that way as an introvert... I need time alone to assess everything that flies past me, and I need time to come up with a game plan, to figure out what I'm going to do and how I'm going to do it. I process internally. BUT, I love playing music with other people and I crave the attention and the "ataboy's".... I enjoy seeing people I know and spending time with friends, so I'm social, but I do need the time to myself to recharge.

We have a tendency to struggle with putting ourselves into categories at times because we often train ourself out of certain aspects of our natural inklings. This makes it hard to buy the definitions sometimes.

[JeffD]

I don't think all music attracts the same kinds of people.

I think bluegrass, as a genre, is a more extroverted kind of music - meaning that I would think more extroverts would be drawn to it. High energy, taking breaks, competitiveness, look at me and my playing. Old time music, I am supposing, is would be more attractive to introverts, where we are happy to play the tune 251,468,716 times, in unison, without taking breaks or soloing. (Happy? Heck, extremely happy.)

[John Flynn]

I don't think all music attracts the same kinds of people.

I think bluegrass, as a genre, is a more extroverted kind of music - meaning that I would think more extroverts would be drawn to it. High energy, taking breaks, competitiveness, look at me and my playing. Old time music, I am supposing, is would be more attractive to introverts, where we are happy to play the tune 251,468,716 times, in unison, without taking breaks or soloing. (Happy? Heck, extremely happy.)

I've heard old-time called "Appalachian Meditation." I've always like that description.

[JeffD]

I've heard old-time called "Appalachian Meditation." I've always like that description.

Yes. They say the first hillbilly drug was harmony.

[Folkmusician.com]

Being an introvert has really stood in the way of performing for me. Performing is something I really "thought" I wanted to do right up to the point I started. Then I realized that it was not for me. I still gave it a go for a while. I found I had to force myself.

Like many of you mention, it is not a case of being shy or not being able to do it. It just runs me down. This pushed me away from performing and more into recording and live sound. Then I realized Live sound was still too much public for me, which led to recording, producing, photography, etc... Still too much interaction with people. Then came working with instruments. Finally, something that suits my personality! And my daily interaction with customers is more than enough to satisfy my socializing.

[Frogstar]

I can identify with the speed bump, the first time I went to a jam I had already scouted the venue just to get a feel for it, and then on the day of the jam, I still had to spend 15 minutes or more psyching myself up in the car before I could grab my guitar and walk in.
With the mix of folks we get going through there, you can definitely see examples of boisterous extroverts and quiet introverts.
I also discovered that I quite enjoy playing with others, and not so much performing.

I have also read the book "Quiet" and I really like it. FYI, the author has a TedTalk on YouTube that is really good also.

Curiously enough, I just watched that a few days ago.

[Mark Miller]

I agree with many here about the wide range of things these terms mean. How you recharge is one. Another has to do with familiarity with the crowd and the occasion. I love spending time with people I know and like. I love teaching and meeting with students (college prof by trade). I love getting together to play music with friends. I hate parties even if there are people I know there. I don't especially like meeting new people except when it's just one or two at a time. I don't enjoy giving lectures to large groups although I do it well. The large-scale jam is OK (only done it a few times), but I would way prefer it if I could find two or three people who shared my taste in music and wanted to get together regularly to play. I have performed in public a few times and didn't really enjoy it and it plumb wore me out. So it's partly about size of the group and partly about whether I already know people and partly about what we are doing, all of which affect my comfort level and all of which have to do with introversion in some sense.