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Thread: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

  1. #1
    ************** Caleb's Avatar
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    Default Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    I've gotten pretty decent at tremolo on single strings, though the outer courses (G and E) do give me some trouble for some reason - it just tends to be easier to play smooth tremolo on the A and D courses for me.

    But when I try to add another string (double stop) into my tremolo, it just doesn't work. The pick will glide across the strings, but I lose pretty much all volume; and if I try and dig in, all goes south and gets very sloppy.

    What am I missing?

    How did you all make the breakthrough from single stings to double stops?

    ...

  2. #2
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post

    But when I try to add another string (double stop) into my tremolo, it just doesn't work. The pick will glide across the strings, but I lose pretty much all volume; and if I try and dig in, all goes south and gets very sloppy.
    :
    If I may ask, what shape, thickness and type of pick are you using?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    If I may ask, what shape, thickness and type of pick are you using?
    A .75mm guitar pick, using the rounded shoulder. But having said that, it doesn't matter what type of pick I use: I get the same results when trying to do the double stop tremolo.
    ...

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Practice practice practice

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Practice practice practice
    Right. But I've had pretty much the same results after all this time (about a decade) so I must be missing something.
    ...

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Right. But I've had pretty much the same results after all this time (about a decade) so I must be missing something.
    try a thicker wegen or ultex/ultem (seethru amber color) or Primetone, 1.2 or more, try different position between bridge and fingerboard (closer to bridge for more tension). Also, you have to adjust picking angle depending on whether e.g. E or A strings are higher. And A-D tremolos are tough.
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    I'm wondering if it's the angle of your right arm,,does it ride high? Maybe swing your right elbow down a little to hit the strings more straight on....

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    You might try tremolo-ing across three strings for a while to get the feel of the additional wrist/arm movement, and see if that makes it easier when you go back to two.

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  11. #9

    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    .........The pick will glide across the strings
    I think I am missing something here. For me the trick to multi-string tremolo was to GET the pick to glide across the strings...

    What is your "angle of attack", as it were? If perpendicular to the bridge (parallel to the string) is "0" and parallel to the bridge is "90", I find that maybe 10 degrees or so gets me a decent combo of "glide" and "dig"...

  12. #10
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    The angle the pick strikes the string is a key element, another is pick grip. Experiment with the pick angle. Try leaning into the down stroke by adjusting the pick angle with your thumb and index finger. Push the pick with your thumb. Loose grip loose wrist and a lot of patience. R/
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    A few suggestions;
    Maybe build yourself a new tremolo from the smallest details up.
    I'd recommend you do iit very slowly and deliberately.
    Look really closely at the strings and how your pick is connecting with the first one.
    Then how it displaces it to get to the next one and through that to the next course.
    Ask yourself all the possible questions you can think of about each aspect of the tremolo movement.
    Is the hand really moving level across the strings. How deeply does the pick go as it crosses the string pair?
    What differences in approach can you make before you change the sound or feel of the tremolo?
    Can you get the pick to ride across the strings if it is completely parallel to the courses?
    Can you hear the double courses responding properly and doubling the pick sounds you hear? If not you could be too angled and you can lose the effectiveness of having a double course by blurring the distinction, necessitating twice as fast a hand movement to get the same effect.
    When you move across multiple courses does the pick return up the same parallel plane it decends on? If not there'll be two completely different depths where the pick engages with the strings, that's very hard to overcome or compensate for with just the pick. If there is an issue there you really need to work on the level crossing of hand over the courses.

    In terms of the larger D & G strings it is normal to find those harder to displace smoothly as they need more energy and present a broader edge against the pick. You may want to go shallower but allow more support in your grip than the smaller more easily shifted strings. That needs to be done looking very closely so you build the mental picture for when you're practicing normally.
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Thanks for all the replies. When I say the pick "glides" across the strings, I mean it seems to sort of skip over then rather than dig in much. I dig in a little and grab enough string when doing single course tremolo to get sound, but when trying to add another course the pick seems to only brush the surface slightly. This is why I lose volume and all goes sort of sloppy. Anyone know of a good YouTube tremolo tutorial?
    ...

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Practice practice practice
    This, and, experiment, experiment, experiment. I wish I were good at it, I've been working on it for over a year and having some small success. IMHO, it is important not only to get advice and find training by watching others and finding lessons, but also to experiment a lot with pick type, pick grip, looseness and angle, close to bridge and closer to fretboard. Try it all, not just what one set of lessons or advice has to offer. And practice, practice, practice.

    Practicing technique is not enough, (and IMHO not as effective as) find a couple tunes with tremolo doublestops and practice the tunes daily or as often as possible, with metronome or backing track. And if you are able, write some music with tremolo doublestops and practice your own tune.
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    For me easing up the grip, relaxing forearm, and ditching the rounded shoulder pick helped me gain volume. Exactly opposite of how I learned tremolo

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    I think Mark W is right. I have a pretty decent tremolo when I'm home alone. Then at the jam it sounds awful and I can't smoothly shift from one course to another. I'm sure it's because I was tightening up. I would think this would only be worse for double stop tremolo.

  20. #16

    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Butch Baldassari (RIP) had a great tremolo exercise. You start on the G string. You add the D string so you're on both. Then add the A so you're on 3 pairs. Then you add the E strings so you're tremoloing on all 4 pairs. Then you subtract the E, then the A, then the D so you're back on just the G. It makes a helluva racket, but you learn to let loose and really work the pick in the strings.

    I would also recommend slowing down your tremolo and observe what's exactly happening to get your pick to engage in both pairs of strings on the doublestops.
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  22. #17
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Speaking of Butch, if I recall correctly he used the pointed end of a regular guitar pick when he played. I have no idea how he played so smoothly and got such tone. And his tremolo was heavenly.

    Regarding practice, practice, practice... Practice only helps if one is practicing the right thing. I've been practicing this for a long time and never seem to move forward, hence the thread.
    ...

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    ... Practice only helps if one is practicing the right thing. I've been practicing this for a long time and never seem to move forward, hence the thread.
    Have you tried "not-tremoloing"? -- I mean, I assume you can get good/great tone on a simple double-stop. How about working very deliberately from quarter note double-stops to eighth note, then 16th note and then maybe doing grouped 16th note triplets across 2 string pairs? The eventual hop to 32nd note will mimic a tremolo..... In this fashion, you might be able to better practice the process, AND learn where/why it begins to fall apart...

    Just a thought....

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    Registered Loser blawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Anyone know of a good YouTube tremolo tutorial?
    From Mike Marshall's course on ArtistWorks:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7vqNh5k96o

    (This particular lesson is freely available on YouTube, so I assume it's fair game to post here.)
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    A .75mm guitar pick, using the rounded shoulder..
    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. When I say the pick "glides" across the strings, I mean it seems to sort of skip over then rather than dig in much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Speaking of Butch, if I recall correctly he used the pointed end of a regular guitar pick when he played. I have no idea how he played so smoothly and got such tone. And his tremolo was heavenly.
    .
    I am often in the minority opinion about this issue, but I suggest using a pointed pick so that you do "dig in" a bit rather than slide or glide over the strings.

    All of the traditional Italian methods advocate a pointed pick, not the currently popular "poker chip" picks and not the rounded ends of pick either.

    These sorts of shapes:





    I do not use the big Roman embergher types, but am happy with almost all of the Neapolitan and Pettine types.

    What they have in common is a pointed playing tip. The idea is to actually pluck the string, not glide over the strings, to produce a clear tone.

    It may seem counterintuitive, but a stiff but not too thick pointed pick combined with proper technique makes the best tremolo.

    http://www.federmandolino.it/listing...o_Parte_1a.pdf

    The shape of the pick is shown on page 2 of the Calace book.

    http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/f...o_parte_2a.pdf

    Page 14 has some recommendations for tremolo:

    "For the study of double strings I recommend great lightness in holding the plectrum - looseness of the wrist helped with the arm, must produce a soft sound as one has always used with the tremolo for the simple notes - keep the instrument straighter than ever to so as all the strings may be well touched the the plectrum perpendicularly."

    http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/f...lino_part1.pdf

    page 13:

    "The thickness must be heavy rather than light - one must not think that a light plectrum will render the tremolo easier. The pupil must accustom himself from the beginning with a rather heavy plectrum and the looseness of the wrist is only obtained by continual exercise - in fact the wrist with the help of the arm produces the tremolo, but not the plectrum."

    p. 14 "I recommend the greatest lightness in holding the plectrum from the beginning"

    I realize that most modern mandolinists do not use the classic Italian method books, but the answers to most technical problems are in these books if one takes the time to look.

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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    When I tremolo over a double stop, I find I have to increase the strength of the stroke. This decreases the control it seems, and I play with a little less subtlety and expressiveness. What I hope for is that the addition of the other note makes up for the loss in the ears of those listening.

    One thing that might be fun to try is an exercise where you play a single note tremolo and then bring the other note in for four beats and out for four beats. Get that transition going and see if some of the single note tremolo technique doesn't migrate to the double stop tremolo.

    But I think they will always feel different.

    I have started incorporating variable speed tremolo into my playing, as recommended in a classical workshop.Varying the speed with the volume. Faster for louder, slower for softer. (It is a really effective way to increase the drama and emotion of my playing. Real effective.) I find that it is not easy to transition to or from a double stop tremolo and keep the initial intended speed. Likely because of the change in stroke distance and not getting the adjustment right. And compensating for the additional strings. What I have to do is kind of "think" it a little faster with the double stop, so it comes out the same speed. Something I am working on and practicing.
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Quote Originally Posted by blawson View Post
    From Mike Marshall's course on ArtistWorks:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7vqNh5k96o

    (This particular lesson is freely available on YouTube, so I assume it's fair game to post here.)
    Wow. What a fantastic video.

  32. #23
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    I truly believe that the pick is too thin. .75 is medium, but it still flexes when you hit the strings , therefore having to rebound back to its original state before it can hit the strings again. This time lapse - latency, if you will, will cause misplaying of tremolo. Try a heavier pick, and the shoulder is probably fine, but the point should not present a problem in executing a decent tremolo.
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  33. #24
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    That video was great. It's funny that he mentioned doing tremolo on the G course is the easiest for most players, but that is absolutely the hardest course for me to do single string tremolo on and I've never understood why. The E course is hard too, but not as hard as the G. The easiest by far to me are the A and D courses. This has caused me to wonder if my positioning of the mandolin might be off? I need to focus on the position of the mandolin when playing the A and D courses, and see if it changes for the E and G.

    Marshall's tip about holding the pick loosely is something I'm going to pracitce. I think this might be one of the things I've been doing wrong all along.

    Regarding my pick being too thin, it doesn't matter what pick I use, I get the exact same result. I have about every pick shape under the sun in my collection.
    ...

  34. #25
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    Default Re: Double Stop Tremolo Help.

    Here is Pete Matin's video on tremolo:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBE1NvRReis

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