Banjo appraisal

[BarCCakes]

Hi guys,

My father-in-law was given a Martin Banjo made in the 60's ish and was wondering what it might be worth today. I'm not up on that sort of thing but I know a Martin isn't a bad instrument. Thoughts?

[MikeEdgerton]

They were imported from Japan. They don't have the cache or the value of an American made Martin guitar by any means but they aren't bad. Hopefully some of the folks that speak banjo can give you some idea of the price.

[HonketyHank]

There is a thread from several years ago on BanjoHangOut on the question. Apparently there were a few banjos turned out by the CF Martin Company (the guitar folks) just after Martin bought Vega. I think these were marked as Vegas but identified somewhere, maybe on the rim or dowel stick if there is one, as Martin. These were high end banjos but not necessarily ones that bluegrassers would like. Martin sold the Vega name and production to Deering very quickly after acquisition, so there were only a few produced. They might be worth some money, but the folks at banjohangout or banjocafe would know a lot better than I.

Then there were some "Martin Brothers" banjos that were mentioned as being noname banjos of less than high quality with "Martin Brothers" stencilled or stamped on them.

If you google "Martin Banjo" you will get a million hits about Steve Martin and maybe one hit on the banjohangout thread.

Oh, and CF Martin Co did briefly make a tenor banjo way back when, like the 1920's or 30's.

[almeriastrings]

I have actually seen one. Some years ago. It was indeed a Vega, assembled from US-made components. It was extremely similar to another mid 60's Vega that I still have the pot for. The Martin one had the original paper tag, that said "The C F Martin Organization". I too suspect most of these were put together from pre-existing Vega parts. A very decent banjo, in fact, though not in demand by Bluegrass pickers, though some really were very good BG banjos!. There is some very comprehensive info here.

Strange that they seem to be virtually forgotten. They deserve better than that, as if you encounter one, you might be surprised at how nice they can be.

One other point, while Martin did license the 'Vega' name, this ended up on guitars being made by Egmond in Holland! These were not terribly good guitars...

[Ray(T)]

As it happens, I have a letter from the late Mike Longworth on this very subject. He says that "They were all in the tenor style and we made less than 100 of them between 1923 and 1926."

They are illustrated on page 99 of Mike's book "Martin Guitars, A History" On page 100, it states that "The Martin tenor banjo was made using patent rights from Walter Grover, then of New York. Mr Grover provided the primary metal components such as the tone rings and "hub cap" resonator plates."

[almeriastrings]

As it happens, I have a letter from the late Mike Longworth on this very subject. He says that "They were all in the tenor style and we made less than 100 of them between 1923 and 1926."

That refers just to the 'original' C F Martin instruments from that specific period. Not to the later ones issued after the ill-fated acquisition of Vega of Boston.

[Jeff Mando]

My banjo teacher in the early 70's had a Martin Vega 5-string that he was very proud of.

[Ray(T)]

That refers just to the 'original' C F Martin instruments from that specific period. Not to the later ones issued after the ill-fated acquisition of Vega of Boston.

When was the "ill fated acquisition"? The martin guitar history was first published in 1974/5 and makes no mentionf any others.

[almeriastrings]

The "C F Martin Organization" acquired Vega in May, 1970.

Mike Longworth's book did not deal with this... it was an 'uncomfortable' period in Martin history. Fides Drums... etc...

See above link for more background.

[BarCCakes]

Ok. This is embarrassing but my father-in-law thought this was a banjo. (Dishonor on me, dishonor on my family...)

Obviously I know that's not a banjo, and this uke seems to have seen better days but I'd appreciate all your thoughts. Sorry for the mix up!

[almeriastrings]

Does it have a stamp on the back of the headstock?

[Ray(T)]

Looks like the basic model soprano Uke. It should have a serial number inside from which it will be possible to identify it's date.

[HonketyHank]

[Jeff Mando]

Kind of like apples and oranges, but it happens..........

Most of the basic style 0, style 1, and some style 2 ukes, sell in the $475 to $700 range, regardless of the year, (most are 20's thru 60's) with average being closer to $500. However, the models with pearl trim and koa wood can bring big money. I sold one of the style 0 ukes a few years ago for $500 on eBay and it was pretty nice and crack-free.

[Ray(T)]

I looked at a 1930s style 3 a few years back which was up for auction. I decided not to bother with it as there was a 2 inch crack in the top and a 4 inch crack in the sides. It still had the remenants of its gut strings and went for something north of £1500!

[allenhopkins]

Looks like the basic model soprano Uke. It should have a serial number inside from which it will be possible to identify it's date.

Sorry, Martin never put serial numbers in its ukuleles -- a show of unwarranted disrespect for the instrument that probably pulled C F Martin Co. through the Depression, when guitar sales plummeted.

If you get really interested, BarCCakes, the book The Martin Ukulele: The Little Instrument That Helped Create a Guitar Giant, by Tom Walsh and John King (Hal Leonard Books, 2013) has detailed information on how you can date Martin ukes, by the changes in frets, markings etc. -- and also how you can ID the different models, since Martin didn't stamp model designations on the instruments either. The somewhat smaller, less shiny Martin decal, and the Waverly hex-nut tuners, seem to indicate a later instrument, 1950's-60's. The lack of body binding would lead me to think it a Style 0, Martin's basic ukulele.

Style 0's are up for sale for around $400 (asking price), though this one was listed on Reverb for $800, which I would term "ridiculous." Still, the higher level Martin ukes, like the Style 5K koa instruments, are going for $5,000 and up, so any Martin ukulele is marketable at a decent price.

[MikeEdgerton]

Martin ukes can sometimes be dated from the tuning pegs and the decal. You can get close. The Gruhn book has more detail. Allen, it might have got them through the depression but the uke first saved Martin in the late teens/early 20's. That was the first Hawaiian music craze in the US.

http://www.oocities.org/~ukulele/martin.html

I have a very early Koa Style 1 that my step-dad bought used in the 20's.

[Jeff Mando]

Another tip is that the early ones from 20's don't have the decal on the peghead and are merely stamped on the BACK of the peghead as a Martin and the stamp is fairly small. This tip has allowed me to purchase Martin ukes at antique malls and flea markets for $20-30 as "no name" ukes..........................

[MikeEdgerton]

Mine actually has tuning pegs like a Violin. This is a Style 1K built between 1920 and 1927. Knowing when it was purchased makes this a whole lot easier. The case is a 30's Geib.

For the OP you have a much wider range to try and fit it into.

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, the OP's uke is a Style 0. They started using patent pegs in 1927. They stopped building them in the 1990's (I believe they were special orders after 1970). The peghead decal appears in the 1930's. The stamp on the back of the headstock disappears after 1935. So this is post 1935, pre 1990's Style 0. There is probably some other guides other than the Gruhn book that might get it closer. By the way, they did serialize ukes from early 1916 starting with #1 and ending at #200 later that year. I'm assuming the sheer numbers they were building buried them.

I have no idea if these are real prices or not.

[BarCCakes]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate bumming off your expertise! Do you think I'd hurt it by restring it?

[Jess L.]

Do you think I'd hurt it by restring it?

I'm not a uke expert but, since no one else has answered yet...

I'd say (guessing) that re-string would be ok as long as the instrument does *not* have any structural-integrity issues such as: open seams (things coming unglued), and no cracks anywhere (top, also peghead/neck area etc), and if the neck looks firmly attached to the body without big gaps at the heel (where neck meets body), and if the neck isn't warped a whole bunch, and if the bridge doesn't look like it's going to come undone, etc.

If those are non-geared tuners though (I can't see the back side of the peghead in the pictures, I'm assuming they're straight-through pegs and not planetary-gear pegs or something), you might be somewhat un-thrilled at their functionality. They're not going to be as smooth and easy to tune as geared tuners. Although with nylon strings it won't be as big a deal. Heck I used to have solid wood (tapered ebony) actual fiddle pegs on one of my old nylon-strung fretless banjos (and on fiddles as well, of course, although both had fine-tuners at the tailpiece so it's a somewhat different scenario), but my point is that when non-geared pegs are properly maintained, and if they fit the holes properly, they're tolerable... although still annoying at times.

But, *if* ukes are built anything like nylon-strung classical guitars (I don't know), do *not* be tempted to make it louder by putting on steel strings. Everyone always says that steel strings have lots more tension (pull) that can hurt an instrument that isn't designed for that.

... If you google "Martin Banjo" you will get a million hits about Steve Martin and maybe one hit on the banjohangout thread. ...

I realize the banjo vs ukulele issue has already been addressed, but for general-purpose Google usage this is a handy thing to know:

Use the minus sign (dash) directly in front of unwanted words (no space inbetween), to get rid of page hits containing those unwanted words. In this case, we would have wanted search results that didn't have the word "steve" in them, so type the following in the Google search box, *without* the quotes:

"martin banjo -steve"

The minus sign tells Google to *not* give you any pages that contain the word "steve".

You can add more than one of the minus-sign words, to further narrow down the search results. It isn't a perfect system but it definitely helps.

That technique works at *some* of the other search engines too, although I basically only use two search engines nowadays, so I'm not really sure about all the others.

Edited to add:
Another general-purpose cool Google search trick is site-specific search, for instance the following which unfortunately in this instance yields no results:

"martin, -steve, site:banjohangout.com" (without the quotes)

If we can believe those zero search results, apparently no one at BanjoHangout has discussed Martin banjos yet, huh...

For experimentation purposes, if you remove the "-steve" from the above, like this:

"martin, site:banjohangout.com" (without the quotes)

then currently Google claims there's only one page containing a reference to Steve Martin on banjohangout, hmm, can that be?

Anyway, back to the topic of cool little ukes...

[HonketyHank]

JL, is there any somewhat comprehensive guide to the vocabulary, syntax, and grammar for Google searches? Thanks for the tips.

[allenhopkins]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate bumming off your expertise! Do you think I'd hurt it by restring it?

If it's structurally sound, no problem. Get soprano ukulele strings (nylon). The Waverly tuners are un-geared, what are generically called "friction pegs," so you tie the new strings to the bridge, thread them through the pegs, and tune them up.

There are several types of ukulele tuning; the most common is GCEA, 4th string to 1st string. I'd say "low to high," but the commonest tuning is called "re-entrant" tuning, the classic "my dog has fleas," where the G (4th) string isn't the lowest, but is tuned to a G note between the E (2nd) and A (1st) string pitches. Make sure what tuning you buy strings for.

Be prepared for the strings to stretch out approximately forever; you'll be touching up your tuning for months, probably. On the other hand, the strings also last approximately forever; I'm working with five-year-old strings on my Regal taropatch (double-strung uke), and they sound pretty much as they did when I put them on.

[Jess L.]

JL, is there any somewhat comprehensive guide to the vocabulary, syntax, and grammar for Google searches? Thanks for the tips.

Well, there is a list of search operators that has some pretty exotic options, most of which I don't understand, *but* I just now realized that the more-common search operators are present on the Google Advanced Search page without having to do extra typing. (I didn't even know they still had the advanced search page, although I used to use it years ago.) The Advanced Search page is an easier way of getting the same results, at least for the more common search options.

I especially like the "filetype" option (available via either of the above methods), for instance you can choose to see only pdf files -- useful when looking up sheet music etc. Can't seem to make it look up only tef files though, hmm...

Edited to add: My today's (re)discovery of the Google Advanced Search page seems to have encountered a slight snag... I just tried that Advanced Search page on my Android phone and it doesn't have as many options (even after scrolling down) as the PC version of that page. Huh. Might be some usefulness left, after all, in manually typing the search operators.