Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

[Jim Imhoff]

Bela and Abigail will also do a whole evening of just banjo and vocals. Also rare artists.

Charles Sawtelle is said to have expounded on that point once to Tim O'Brien stating that it is impossible to create beautiful music on an instrument with only highs and no midrange. Tim then proceeded to play an astounding, extraordinary, wonderful solo mandolin piece. He looked at Charles and said something like "Well, what about that?" Charles then responded "I rest my case."

I guess I will have to throw out all my recordings of the Bach violin partitas; damn, I thought the Ciaconna in d minor was the greatest solo piece ever composed. In all my years as a music educator and researcher, I have found that the rigidity of defined categories is both wrong (linguistically, neurobiologically, and epistemologically) and more a function of an individual's personality than anything to do with music, dog breeds, or pickup trucks. "There are only 2 kinds of people in the world: people who agree with me and people who are wrong."

[CarlM]

Just to be clear the story is tongue in cheek. Anyone who could respond that way to Tim O'Brien's best work is either asleep and not listening or in this case a profoundly good musician having fun at the expense of a friend who he played with for many years at the highest level.

[Drew Streip]

I'm late to the discussion, but I think there's an interesting chicken-and-egg element to your question, Doc:

What are the shared cultural elements before and after becoming a "Mandolin Player"?

I started out as a saxophone and guitar player. Actually, I started out as a kid interested in listening to (and wanting to create and re-create) music. Violin wasn't for me. So I became a sax player, and quickly moved to baritone sax -- which was its own phenomenon, as an 11-year-old with a life-size instrument.

Looking back, I realize that my obsession with mandolin and bari sax are similar: They're both instruments that elicit stares and questions ("Look how big/small that is! Can you believe he plays that?"). They both are critical additions to voicing common ensembles, yet there are relatively few "solo" performers, because they occupy a space outside the comfortable mid-range. They're both versatile -- neither is as pigeonholed as, say, the tenor sax is for jazz, or as the 12-string guitar is for wayward hair-metal ballads, or as the ukulele is for Hawaiian music and college girls trying to be quirky.

Then, of course, people subconsciously emulate other aspects (beyond the musical) of the their instrumental idols. Chris Thile is just barely older than me, so I like the way he dresses, and his stage presence. I like Paul Hoffman's beard and hard-rock aesthetic. I like Mike Marshall's goofy, academic, professorial appearance and approach to his instrument. Ditto John Reischman. They come across as worldly in a way that good ol' boy flatpickers don't. I've always loved South American culture; is it a coincidence, then, that Marshal and Reischman both have albums of Brazilian choros? Or am I destined to one day deserve and acquire a Lloyd Loar mandolin and spread music to the next generation?

Great discussion!

[Jim Imhoff]

Drew,
That's a useful line of thought for my study: how has joining this world/group/community changed the player's life? identity? social net, and so on. And the off-center range of both your instruments is surely a factor: it almost calls out to be in an ensemble, not as heavily soloistic as guitar or piano. Appreciate the thoughts.
Jim

[Jim Imhoff]

Of course, Carl--I wasn't really going to throw out my Bach partitas! I bet they both had a big laugh if that story really happened. But the rigid category thing was part of my dissertation years ago, and I learned the popular (and ancient Platonic) concept of a category being sharply defined by features (this color, that size, found in Australia and so on) does not hold up under careful linguistic analysis. I have run into a lot of "That's not bluegrass!" attitudes at jams, and I even know a guy who will sit his instrument down if you don't "play it the way Bill did." Just think of what is contained in the category of "Mandolin Music;" how would you give a simple rigid definition of that?

[Tom Haywood]

The use of language and particular words interests me. In this case, the word "culture" has acquired over time a fairly diverse set of meanings from the base verb "to cultivate", which is based in agriculture - tilling a field for crops. This diversity is causing me difficulty in understanding the OP's questions. I do understand that this exercise is in part an exploration of possible diverse approaches to the idea, which itself is not solidly framed. Merriam-Webster's definitions #5 b and d, having to do with beliefs, conventions, values and social practices of particular groups, seems to me to be what we are discussing. Definition 4 a, having to do with enlightenment and excellent taste, is very appealing, but 4 b could cause trouble by distinguishing between taste in fine arts and mere vocational and technical skills. There is some hint in responses that we are discussing definition 2: "the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education". Based on definition 6, I placed a mandolin in a very large petri dish and nothing happened - no culture developed. We might all agree that this last definition is not what we are discussing - even that it's ridiculous, but at this point I think it is fair.

[Mark Gunter]

Based on definition 6, I placed a mandolin in a very large petri dish and nothing happened - no culture developed.

Perhaps you neglected to attach a ToneRite (sp?) to it.

[Jim Imhoff]

Tom, try a peachtree dish, they work every time. There should be some available in your town.
And yes, "beliefs, conventions, values and social practices of particular groups" is what I am getting at. Some people suggested community, but that ks used so commonly and loosely I did not think it would generate more than short few-word type answers. I am amazed at the volume and level of response. The use of language and words is part of my study too: you are using lexical references (dictionary); my work got me into pragmatics, meanings in context, with factors like setting, power relationships, tone, etc.

[ProfChris]

To power relationships you might want to add status, which seems to me related but not identical.

In the UK's ukulele 'culture' I see four groupings: players (the overwhelming majority), performers, organisers/facilitators of groups/events, and builders. There is a lot of overlap - I appear to belong to all four groups (!) - and they interact in ways which are quite different from what you would expect in, for example, a commercial context (even though some money is involved). There is a lot of cooperation and interaction, and also to some extent a gift economy going on. This definitely impacts on status within the culture, and probably has power effects too. It's quite different from guitar players, where the boundaries between these groupings are less permeable. Just as one example, at a ukulele festival the paid performers all spend time offstage interacting with the audience (who are 99% players), talking to them, teaching them playing tips, jamming with them, etc. But the performers also have conversations between themselves which are quite different in content.

I'd guess the mandolin, as a minority instrument with all the "oddball" perceptions explained by previous posters, might have something similar within its culture.

[Bren]

Most mandolin players I know are self-taught, whereas almost all the fiddlers I know took lessons, often from a young age.

That's the main cultural difference I can think of. I appreciate that a large proportion of guitarists are also self-taught.

Genre differences and boundaries are far more significant to non-players than players, in my experience.

[JeffD]

the instrument is really not that popular. Yes, that's me saying that. The relatively small size of the community makes for better neighbors. ... and somewhat lack of respect in the larger music world makes for a more coherent community.

Yes!

Nothing makes community like a common enemy. Us against the world.

Not enemies really, but that is the idea. Experiences we mandolinners, many/most of us, have had in common are:

Relative ignorance of the general public as to what that instrument is ("I see you brought your banjolukee today.")

Being the only mandolin or one of two mandolins at an event, in a sea of guitars and fiddles.

Music stores not having any mandolins, and/or a staff that knows next to nothing about them.

Of course there are exceptions to these experiences, but they are the exceptions that remind us of the rule. In an onstage interview at an open mike benefit concert - if the MC asks the musician "now what is that instrument that you brought today?", you can feel the general assumption that you brought something for show and tell and left your "real instrument" at home. And with reasonable confidence I know my mandolin compadres can relate to that.

[JeffD]

Another interesting point - well interesting to me - what are some of the common personality types that are drawn to the mandolin in the first place. Perhaps we make community because we recognize that in other mandolinners, maybe even not explicitly, and can relate because they are us are me.

I could suggest a list of personality types, but it would be a lot of hash and reification of my own prejudices about the superiority of the mandolin.

But there is something to this. For example - and I see this often enough - the two mandolinners at a general music event will very often find each other and chat a bit, like new found friends who discover they are from the same small town. Whereas I see lots and lots of guitar players who don't acknowledge each other beyond musical necessity. (Like watching each others left hand to learn the chords to the song.)

[Randi Gormley]

JeffD -- I think in a large enough crowd of mandolinners, you'll find the same personality types you'd find in a mixed musical group, just because they're musicians. If I'm one of two mandolins in a crowd of fiddles and other instruments, f'rinstance, I'll absolutely gravitate to the other mandolin and we'll do fine together. But if I'm in a roomful of mandolins, I've found that some people I like and some I don't care for, in a mild kind of way. I think maybe 'musician' may be at least as descriptive of personality as 'mandolin player' for sorting out 'my kind of people' from 'not my kind of people.' So, maybe, we're musicians first, mandolin players second and then whatever genre we prefer third?

[JeffD]

JeffD -- I think in a large enough crowd of mandolinners, you'll find the same personality types you'd find in a mixed musical group, ?

You may be right.

I go to few "mandolin events" so I haven't a lot of experience in a large crowd of mandolinners. (Its a hard concept to get my brain around. But yea, the principle of rarity. Enough mandolinners so that "they ain't nothing special".

So, maybe, we're musicians first, mandolin players second and then whatever genre we prefer third?

Nested communities, like Matryoshka dolls.

[catmandu2]

Yes, in my (college) town, and other college towns I've lived, mandolin (nor bluegrass) isn't a rarity at all. In fact, the mandolin is relatively common here - given the popularity of bluegrass, generally.

I do experience relative rarity with other instruments I play, such as wire harp and melodeon - don't know that I've seen any of these about here (nor there, for that matter). When I play hammered dulcimer, most (it seems) folks don't know what it is, and typically several inquire whether it's a cimbalom, which is a good guess and not entirely inaccurate.

[JeffD]

Yes, in my (college) town, and other college towns I've lived, mandolin (nor bluegrass) isn't a rarity at all. In fact, the mandolin is relatively common here - given the popularity of bluegrass, generally. .

Well we have likely had some equal and opposite experience. I have not found bluegrass of particular interest in college towns. If anything it is kind of denigrated, and local adherents are sheepish about admitting they like it. Most of the college towns I have visited are much more traditional fiddle tunes and dance and pockets of enthusiasm for otherwise arcane music and dance tradition.

But I suspect also this varies a lot geographically, and by size of institution, and the individual culture of the college itself.

I don't doubt you, just surprised to hear you say that.

[catmandu2]

Yea, i could be way off applying too broad a pattern - in Boulder, Ft Collins and Missoula, caint hardly throw a stick without hitting a mandolin player, and BG band. These may not be typical, among college towns..

*Btw, I too am surprised - here, BG is about as popular as rock and country in the clubs, it seems (well, not quite - nothing displaces 'rock' as preeminent in clubs). I'd thought BG was moving right up there, in terms of wide appeal...but I've no idea of popular trends - no fair means of assessing

Gotta quality above- I don't know of others more than one or two playing wire harp. Melodeon there's gotta be more than those I know - exemplified by the old folks who are selling them occasionally on CL - bought one over the summer in fact

Greg Boyd had a Corona on consignment a few years ago (and a duet-system Lachenal, so things DO turn up occasionally) - I didnt buy it, and Greg said he should keep it and learn how to play it - so hopefully there's at least one more button player here now : ) **ah now I remember - I recommended it to a mel.net-er who bought it.

[Jim Imhoff]

To all of you,
I opened this discussion because I am planning a qualitative study to compare and contrast a local bluegrass jam/class group with a classically oriented mandolin orchestra. Because the orchestra is strictly mandolin (with an occasional guitar part included) I started wondering about the bridge between the two groups as the instrument itself. The bluegrass group of course includes guitar, fiddle, banjo, and dobro players, but a well designed case study should have a well defined "case." I wondered if mandolin culture/community was just such a "case" or just people who happened to play the same instrument. I knew people who played one style exclusively, people who played in both groups (as I do) and people who played other styles such as swing, choro, and old time. On the surface, the mandolin appears to be a common factor, which got me thinking about a community or culture. I am amazed at the length and depth of the thread--I was expecting a few replies and mostly perfunctory YES/NO answers. Instead, I see serious thoughtful dialog(s) ranging from musical to sociological to commercial to linguistic! Before even starting my actual study (this was a preliminary survey, NOT the research itself) I have a wealth of questions to ask and themes to pursue. I will continue checking in to see what further trouble I have stirred up, but I most heartily appreciate the Mandolin Cafe managers and community for their careful and thoughtful response, and for our shared love of the instrument.
Doc James -- not a real doctor, I just play one on the mandolin.

[catmandu2]

Cool Doc - I'm a sociology/human ecology buff from school. Havent read much in the technical realm in years, but still curious! (I'm more an anthro-psych reader, to term broadly, now, to any extent that I read tech).

*Btw I'll have to go back and read the thread yet, and i'm sure it's been elucidated by all the fine folks here - but for me, mostly retired and all, the net is (a) culture, or e-culture, and FB and all that stuff. It's new world.. Thats at least one chapter in your book i'd think.

[catmandu2]

...
One serious question I need to ask first is this: Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on? ...

Hell if I know. Though I would think people/groups sort out by all mechanisms, including homogeneously among, both, types of instruments as well as types of music.. By what I observe online, both instrument type as well as music type tend to be discrete categories by which folks collect and communicate.

When I peruse online fora, I'm generally motivated by music-type, but I find myself amid mutliple instrument-type fora, but typically engaging in music-rather than instrument-related discussion (vis a vis - I don't even play mandolin anymore, yet find topics of various music-related disussion here ..

[SincereCorgi]

To all of you,
I opened this discussion because I am planning a qualitative study to compare and contrast a local bluegrass jam/class group with a classically oriented mandolin orchestra. Because the orchestra is strictly mandolin (with an occasional guitar part included) I started wondering about the bridge between the two groups as the instrument itself.

I don't know if you're going to get a very representative sample of typical mandolinists if you only look at these two groups. Classical mandolin is rare, classical mandolin orchestras are extremely rare, and by their very nature are going to be composed of mainly adult amateurs with a classical music education, lots of income, a desire to be a 'joiner', and spare time. They're probably also a lot more likely to see a 'mandolin culture' than mandolinists who usually play among other instruments.

[Charlieshafer]

I am amazed at the length and depth of the thread--I was expecting a few replies and mostly perfunctory YES/NO answers. Instead, I see serious thoughtful dialog(s) ranging from musical to sociological to commercial to linguistic!

I suppose this might be due to the lack of gainful employment by most of us musicians....Plenty o' free time to expound on, well, wherever the thread creeps to.

On the flip side, I do wonder if the mandolin attracts people who would like not to be considered "ordinary". As someone said about guitarists not being a cohesive group, perhaps there are just so many players, and so many guitars, they feel the need to line themselves up in some sort of pecking order. I'm not seeing that with all the mandolinists (or even multi-genre fiddlers) I know. Everyone seems pretty comfortable with the fact that we're as good as we are as individuals, and enjoy players better than us, and remember fondly the times when we were just starting out and making a mess of things. As far as the instruments, we admire the fantastic ones, and can barely afford the average (on average, which makes sense, that's why they're average.) Most of the mandolin players I know, even a lot of the pros, love the super-instruments, but know they have a car payment or college tuition due. It's a pretty relaxed culture, on the whole...

[Jim Imhoff]

I don't know if you're going to get a very representative sample of typical mandolinists if you only look at these two groups. Classical mandolin is rare, classical mandolin orchestras are extremely rare, and by their very nature are going to be composed of mainly adult amateurs with a classical music education, lots of income, a desire to be a 'joiner', and spare time. They're probably also a lot more likely to see a 'mandolin culture' than mandolinists who usually play among other instruments.

Maybe rare, but not so extremely rare; CMSA has a national listing of around 40. And That's just USA & Canada; a member of my group from Japan says there are numerous MO's in Tokyo alone, and of course many in Europe.
You are right about a representative/typical sample of mandolin player. But the population I am really looking at is (1) adults who participate in community music groups, and specifically (2) the people who play in these two local groups. The mandolin culture question was a preliminary survey, thinking about interviewing just one instrumental group (because the orchestra IS one instrument based). Again, my actual study will be different from the question I posed here, but the feedback will play an important part in developing and designing the research questions.

[Jim Bevan]

So, Doc James, post #99 asks: While your actual study will be different from the question you posed here, you did pose the question, and it's a simple one, which could be answered with a "yes" or a "no" -- were you able to reach a simple conclusion?

[Bill McCall]

maybe rare, but not so extremely rare

Really? OBA lists about 15 monthly jams, plus innumerable private jams in Portland alone. Multiply that across 50 states and innumerable towns and cities. I'm unaware of classical jams, but I may just be a bit uninformed in that area.

I also think the sociology of groups is well studied and examining the differences of similar, non musical groups may be enlightening, such as recreational bicycle riders and team racing clubs.

And finally, I'm still unsure how you design a study when you are a member of both studied groups. Part of the study will invariably reflect your own participation and belief systems.