BIB, ChordPulse? Record Yourself With Backing

[Mark Gunter]

In a thread from September this year about backing tracks, the website strummachine.com was mentioned. I liked the fact that I could easily add my own tracks and there were quite a few ready-made, which also could be modified if necessary, so I bought a year subscription to that. I have found it a great resource that I use daily to practice many tunes and to increase speed with.

But I really want to be able to create backing tracks that I can record myself with. Strummachine is not very good for that. The tracks there can only be played (streamed), they can't be downloaded or converted to different formats. In order to record myself to these tracks, I have to play them through the speakers and record the speaker output along with my mandolin playing. The result is awful.

In that same thread, JL277z mentioned and gave examples of a program called ChordPulse, and Pete Martin mentioned Band-in-a-Box . . .

I have some minimal recording equipment that I'm not using right now, and the Ableton Live Lite recording software. I need something for making backing tracks to record with. I don't want to learn multiple softwares for creating backing tracks (I use a lot of softwares already for many purposes).

I'd like some discussion to decide what software to purchase and focus on learning. This would be software that can easily create backing tracks with plenty of options (like using an initial pick-up measure and such). Backing tracks have to sound good (not dinky, like the midi stuff from Tabledit).

Can I get some opinions on BIB vs. ChordPulse, and perhaps others that you've used?

[farmerjones]

Just get a multi-track recording app or software.
Years ago they weren't so good, so I bought a Fostex MR8 unit. (A hardware solution rather than a software) But I could add tracks upon tracks to my heart's content. Save some. Master the whole works. Or scrap the whole project.
I have used Chordbot for play along practice. (android app)

I looked at BIB. Seems like a lot of money for. . . .well. . . .let's say I made something good enough to give or sell. I didn't feel I could do that with something produced with BIB. Where as if I played all the instruments (good or bad) it's OK.

[Mark Gunter]

fj, that had kind of been my plan for the past couple years. What I already have would allow me to do that. I haven't done it because of some laziness - lack of knowledge about the recording software and lack of skill on the instruments. As a long-time guitarist I hold my own well in live solo performance and jam sessions, but in recording I generally suck. I was thinking that making up some canned backing would be the way to go with recording my mandolin progress, but you do make good points.

I have the barest minimum of recording stuff to play with, and could lay track upon track with it. The Scarlett Solo coupled with Ableton Live software. I've had it for over a year but haven't really played with it much yet.

[Jess L.]

Might have issues getting people to talk about this stuff in much detail, whether good or bad, no one wants to be mistaken as trying to plug (or conversely, bash) any one particular app or product. But anyway...

I like some of the 'canned' backing tracks so I can experiment with unusual (for me) rhythms and styles that are out of the norm of what I usually play.

Such variety helps to get me unstuck from occasional musical ruts/plateaus and get some creativity started up again, learning new stuff.

Who says fiddle tunes must have a trad banjo or guitar backing? Who says classical music can't have a rock/metal backing? This is where canned backing tracks are fun, because many of them (actually most, for me) are in styles that I have no previous experience with (rock etc) so it's like having a new toy to play with.

It's a blast to experiment with previously-untried combinations just to see what the potential is.

Alternatively... Then there's the more predictable, one-note-at-a-time, write-your-own-backing approach. (Some examples are down below a ways, in this post.)

People who already know exactly what they want their backing track to sound like, and how to put those notes onto paper (or screen), can write their own custom multi-'instrument' backing with music-writing apps such as MuseScore (free open-source software for PC, Mac, & Linux). But then there's that thin unrealistic sound thing again...

MuseScore is not as user-friendly as TablEdit but some of the MuseScore sounds are better, depending on which 'instruments' you select. It's still a fake-sounding midi thing but hey it's free...

This one-note-at-a-time thing isn't really any harder (assuming music-writing experience) than recording yourself playing 3 different instruments and mixing the tracks, although the live recording will probably sound a lot better just due to better audio quality. And the note-writing option would be more for experienced players I suppose, as newbies have enough on their plate already without having to figure out how to write music too.

I experiment with all three of those apps (TablEdit, MuseScore 2.x, and ChordPulse), sometimes even using Audacity (another free open-source app) to combine together tracks from *each* of those other three apps to make a backing track that I like.

If I were just starting out in music, I'd probably only use ChordPulse (well unless I had a Mac, I think ChordPulse is still only for PC, huh that's odd but anyway) it's easy to use, just click some chords, to start out with anyway, it has more advanced options too but you can ignore those at first.

To answer one of the OP's questions, ChordPulse does have a lead-in option, of either one bar or two bars. The lead-in is kind of like someone tapping on a cymbal or something, helps set the beat before the music starts. You can turn off the lead-in count if you don't need it.

The main annoyance I find with ChordPulse, is that you really have to turn the main drums down a ways, the default 'snare' drum is ridiculously loud and annoying, I don't know why they made it that way... or maybe it's just my ears, my high-frequency hearing is still quite good (lack of rock concerts in my past heh). Fortunately it's easy to change the volume of stuff via either the main sliders or (better) via the menu's "Mixer" settings which gives more precise control.

I haven't tried Band In A Box yet, last time I checked it doesn't have downloadable demo's anymore and I'm not willing to risk that much money for something that I might or might not find useful, plus my computer is pretty low-spec and it might not be able to handle BIAB anyway, not sure... no way to know without being able to try a demo.

Some examples of stuff I've put together to help me learn tunes... these are just for practicing when first learning a tune, not gonna make any platinum albums using these backings:

1. Very simple hand-written TablEdit practice backing, just midi so yeah it sure ain't hi-fi, has light melody also so people don't lose track of where they are in the tune (and to make it easier to figure out harmony lines when playing along), anyway (for what it's worth) my arrangement of Ronnie Cooper's Shetland fiddle tune "Chadwick's Bog", 10-minute loop of 50-seconds of notes:


(or direct link)

2. MuseScore 2 backing, my own arrangement of Playford's "Newcastle", although arguably a tinny sounding midi that the OP doesn't prefer, MuseScore might have some other 'instrument' sound that's better but I haven't found it yet:


(or direct link)
NOTE: Writing multi-part arrangements like that, is one way to gently delve into harmony 'n' stuff, just keep trying different notes until you find some that sound ok... maybe not the 'right' way to do it but it's fun to experiment with... and such music-writing can be done anywhere you've got a laptop/notebook computer, in case you're traveling without an instrument handy. But, have not yet found an Android music-writing app I like though.

3. Combining TablEdit and ChordPulse together (in Audacity) to produce this hybrid practice backing track for Michael Perry's "Calypso Carol" , this seems to me to have a more full sound:


(or direct link)
(Note: For actual mandolin with same style backing, there's this: me)


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Obligatory disclaimer: NFI in any of those apps. I just find them handy.

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More music stuff of varying quality at my YouTube page.

[farmerjones]

fj, that had kind of been my plan for the past couple years. What I already have would allow me to do that. I haven't done it because of some laziness - lack of knowledge about the recording software and lack of skill on the instruments.. . . .

There's a lot of education just pursuing the project. Everybody sucks at recording when they start. It's different than practice or jamming. Sure, you have to be clean and precise, but you get as many takes as you want. Then you may find out it's a case of diminishing returns. Then you learn about that. I'm not a friend of click tracks, so I make sacrificial rhythm tracks. I learned about that. I now understand why folks like Grisman just leave the tape rolling. (not actual tape anymore) There's a whole lot of value to having studio skills. Everything helps everything.

[Mark Gunter]

Might have issues getting people to talk about this stuff in much detail, whether good or bad, no one wants to be mistaken as trying to plug (or conversely, bash) any one particular app or product. But anyway...

I suppose you're right, most of us are silent for fear of being misunderstood, and those of us who are not silent are usually, unfortunately, misunderstood

Anyway, thanks for your taking the time to respond, it has been a help. The response by you and by fj has definitely helped me to make some decisions. Just getting different folk's views can open up one's creative thinking.

Regarding the kind of software I was asking about, I think that it's not necessary at the moment and when I get ready to get something like that I'll just do more of my own research.

What I currently use is Tabledit for writing music and Transcribe! for analyzing audio and video. For practicing mandolin, I play solo or with a metronome, or with songs from albums, videos from YouTube, and recently with strummachine. I have good tools for learning and practicing, but for recording all I've been doing is using an iPhone on a tripod and no backing tracks unless strummachine playing through the speakers.

It's obvious to me that I need to use the recording equipment and software that I already have and do not use (Scarlett Solo + Ableton + Shure mic), and since posting this I've decided that doing that is a bigger priority than finding a "backing track generator."

And no, I have no financial interest in promoting iPhones, strummachine, Transcribe!, Tabledit, Focusrite, Ableton, Shure or any other product I have mentioned in this thread, LOL.

[derbex]

You might like to try MMA http://www.mellowood.ca/mma/index.html

In short you give it a lead sheet and it makes a midi backing track which you can then play through a midi player. I have only used it for one tune so far (Blue Moon in 3bs) and it made a decent enough track to play along to.

The price is right

[SincereCorgi]

Can I get some opinions on BIB vs. ChordPulse, and perhaps others that you've used?

I don't think there's a really good piece of software for this yet, but it seems like it's not far away. BiB's 'real tracks' (or whatever) sound great, but they're not very flexible and I think the program overall is overpriced and too clunky. If you like Strummachine, I'd suggest getting a program that allows you to record the streams (Audio Hijack is a good one for macs), then recording yourself while listening to it on headphones and mixing the results.

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks SincereCorgi, for reading what I had asked about. I was wondering about a software that can make pretty decent, realistic-sounding tracks. I'm not interested in cheesy midi, I make it easily with Tabledit and other software I already use if and when I want it. Strummachine is a nice resource IMO for practice, but with some pretty big limitations that would not make it worthwhile to figure out a cludgy workaround to capture the stream and make recordings based on that, I think.

After listening to and watching JL277z's videos I realized that I am much less enthralled with that sound than I remember having been in an earlier post. And after reading farmerjones' posts, I came to realize that he is correct, I need to work on my recording skills with both guitar and mandolin. So at this point, I am no longer looking for a software solution for this, though I'm always interested in learning about this stuff, particularly about what others may be doing.

Thanks to all for responding!

[gtani7]

Excellent thread (as always) and the "metronome" thread right next to it also.

2 things i ddin't see in my Control F-ing (I'm no saying bad words, i'm hitting Control and F keys together):

- multiloop looper like the TC electronics Ditt X4, Electro Harmonix 22500 or 45000, Boss, etc. I tried a single loop looper, the TC ditto X2, and it had great sound quality, intuitive interface, you can just pull it out of the box and use it and read the manual later, but with a single loop, if you want to do, say, A-B-A-B, you have to record the whole AB as a loop. I'm getting an TC ditto X4, that just let me do the A and B sections separately.

- The other thing i haven't tried but i read about it all the time, is iReal Pro. I think it's mainly pitched at jazz students to work through changes but no reason you can't do any genre you want and there's a huge archive of song structures people have uploaded, otherwise you have to enter the chords. You do have to have a mac, iPhone or iPad tho.

- also Apple Mainstage is another thing that sounds like it should work but i haven't used that either

[derbex]

I liked the look of the DigiTech TRIO+ advanced Band Creator and Looper pedal, but I am feeling poor at the moment which is why I found MMA.

[Barry Wilson]

Of all the computer base programs I tried, mixcraft was the easiest to navigate with a lot of features. reasonable price. I am going to try and synch it up with my zoom r24

[Jocaef]

There is this similar app to chord pulse but it has its own approach:
Chord Pad - lets you make chord progressions in many styles,jazz are really good ones I think.

[Jairo Ramos]

Band in a Box is a very sophisticated and versatil software, the best for practice and backing tracks. The realtracks are amazing, no the midi sound others programs have. If you play Bluegrass, you can buy the bluegrass realtracks, if you play celtic music the celtic tracks, etc. You add a chord progression, style and go! You can export to mp3, etc.

Chord Pulse and other software are good for practice if you don´t care the midi sound. I don´t have a partner to play along, jam, etc., and Biab is the most realistic sound I ever found, from basic backing tracks to more complex backing tracks, practice routines, etc. As all software, you must take a time to learn to use it, but it's worth it!

You can record directly in Biab, I have only a M-Audio mic, and Audacity to mix the tracks.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is this similar app to chord pulse but it has its own approach:
Chord Pad - lets you make chord progressions in many styles,jazz are really good ones I think.

We ask that vendors identify themselves as such. Please take a moment to review the posting guidelines. Shilling your own product like this isn't taken well here.

[farmerjones]

Ok, a year later, how's this project going Mike G.?

Now, I'm sniffing around loopers. I've not pulled a trigger on any yet. They seems so slick. But I get the feeling you have to stomp that button at precisely the right time. Will I be able to get the hang of this? Will this throw everything off? I see people perform live with loopers quite seamlessly. I wish I could borrow one, or go some place where I could test one.

[Mark Gunter]

Ok, a year later, how's this project going Mike G.?

Now, I'm sniffing around loopers. I've not pulled a trigger on any yet. They seems so slick. But I get the feeling you have to stomp that button at precisely the right time. Will I be able to get the hang of this? Will this throw everything off? I see people perform live with loopers quite seamlessly. I wish I could borrow one, or go some place where I could test one.

MG as in Mark G.?

Well, I still suck at recording, but I've been working on tone and accuracy a lot, and improving those aspects slowly. I did finally get the gumption to use the DAW and recorded this in February:



Not great, but it was something to be proud of that I buckled down and did it. After that, I didn't use it again until last month, when I began to "play" with it some more. I'm working on another 'similar' project with it now and will be happy to post it here when it's completed.

Meanwhile, I continue to use strummachine.com for a whole lot of my practice stuff.

Besides just now beginning to learn a little about the DAW, I have learned what a big difference a good clip-on condenser mic can make on recording mandolin. I recently got the AT PRO 35 and it does a great job of capturing the sound of my Collings.

About the loop pedals - I have exactly the same concerns as you've expressed. Could have written that myself. If you go for it, good luck! All I can say about it is that it may be much easier than I can imagine, since they seem to be so pervasive these days.

[farmerjones]

Sorry Mark! I can't even blame it on spellcheck

Fine YT channel! A man after my own heart. Getting your point across in simple fashion, as we do, seems to work the best. It works for demonstrating a chord progression to singing a song. If it's a good song, the best one can do is keep it clean and simple, and sort of get out of it's way. That's not my quote. I didn't even paraphrase it well. But there's some truth there.

You're gracious enough to share your channel. I'll do the same. Such as it is.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Fiddlenguy

[dadsaster]

I'm a former recording engineer. There is a lot involved in getting a good recording. Professionals use multi-tracking (and isolation), compressors, reverb, time and pitch correction and various other tools to get a good sound. It takes time and skill to mix a song and get the right balance between instruments. A proper studio can have a million dollars worth of equipment and the sound of the room will be significantly better than any room an amateur would record in.

I think you Levon Helm cover sounds pretty good.

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks, I thought it was pretty good for a first effort in ignorance of all the things you mentioned, and more importantly (to me) fun, and educational.

[Mark Wilson]

Mark, I'm not sure if you're still interested in opinions on bib, but I can share my experience with using it. I bought it and a Realtrack bluegrass add-on package to make my own bg backing tracks. When I get back around to recording again, I'll definitely use it to lay down basic rhythm tracks.

Here's one of my backing tracks using bib and realtracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYkW-mpLEE

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks for the info and for the link, Mark

[Mark Gunter]

Sorry Mark! I can't even blame it on spellcheck

Fine YT channel! A man after my own heart. Getting your point across in simple fashion, as we do, seems to work the best. It works for demonstrating a chord progression to singing a song. If it's a good song, the best one can do is keep it clean and simple, and sort of get out of it's way. That's not my quote. I didn't even paraphrase it well. But there's some truth there.

You're gracious enough to share your channel. I'll do the same. Such as it is.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Fiddlenguy

Thanks for sharing, enjoyed watching your vids.

[Jess L.]

Mark, I'm not sure if you're still interested in opinions on bib, but I can share my experience with using it. I bought it and a Realtrack bluegrass add-on package to make my own bg backing tracks. When I get back around to recording again, I'll definitely use it to lay down basic rhythm tracks.

Here's one of my backing tracks using bib and realtracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYkW-mpLEE

Sounds good to me!

Question about Band-in-a-Box: if you hadn't bought the optional bluegrass Realtrack, how much of a hit would the sound take? Could BIAB somehow be made to sound reasonably okay without the Realtracks? Or would it just sound like a tinkly MIDI ice-cream-truck or something?

Last time I looked on the BIAB website there were so many temptingly-named Realtracks that we'd have to win the lottery to afford all that. Wondering if the bare-bones "as it ships" no-extra-Realtracks is at all usable without buying extra stuff. They no longer offer trial demos so there's no way to test before buying, at least not that I'm aware of.

I'm still doing most of my practicing using ChordPulse but I want more 3/4-time backing track options, ChordPulse doesn't have nearly as many 3/4 time tracks as it does 4/4 time tracks, that's my main reason for still being curious about BIAB... I'm assuming BIAB is capable of doing 3/4 time tunes?

Would be a nice bonus if BIAB would also do 7/8 time tunes, I still need an app that has that capability, tired of writing my own 7/8 practice-backing tracks one note at a time in MuseScore.

Thanks in advance for any info.

[Pete Martin]

Question about Band-in-a-Box: if you hadn't bought the optional bluegrass Realtrack, how much of a hit would the sound take? Could BIAB somehow be made to sound reasonably okay without the Realtracks? Or would it just sound like a tinkly MIDI ice-cream-truck or something?

The sound difference with the Real Tracks is night and day. Non real tracks are MIDI and sound like most other MIDI driven programs and apps. Real Tracks sound like real pro level players.