Sawstop table saw and LMI fret saw blades?

[j. condino]

I had one of the early sawstop industrial tablesaws about a dozen years ago when my shop was back in Oregon. It was an excellent saw that replaced a very good powermatic and exceeded it by almost every area. It was very cool to drive over to west Portland and meet the designer and the three guys who worked there at that time in person. YES, I did trip the safety mechanism twice- both from using titebond to glue up some jigs. Since we were all used to the idea that titebond sets up to working strength in about 1/2 hour with mdf.....but forgot that it still takes about 24 hours to equilibriate in the material so that the overall moisture content is down to a working level for the safety mechanism to work normally. Overall, it was a very good saw but I sold it during the move to North Carolina and was quite grumpy over the additional $500 east coast delivery charge and another $500 in state sales tax (non existant in Oregon!).

I have been using an almost museum quality 1953 Delta Unisaw with all of the art deco goodies and pimpin' good looks for close to a decade with zero complaints. My lutherie teaching and private lesson workload is 8+ days a month now in my current shop so there are a lot of other people around and I do let the more seasoned ones use the tools. Even though I have played over 150 gigs with my Django trio in the last three years, I'm still a bit of a sissy and like using all four fingers; at this point in the game I could honestly give up the instrument building and say that 38 years was a good run, but NO WAY do I want to stop the gigs. I'm also pretty sure that I can offset more than the cost of the saw with my insurance reduction for having that in place.

Given that and the rest of the obvious events, I think it is time to get another Sawstop- the big pro model. I tend to switch around the blades between a 60 tooth Freud or Forrest blade for most of the daily grind, but I still use the LMI fret saw system- their .023" ground blade and a set of 4" Forrest stiffeners- several times a month for fingerboard slotting. Does anyone here have any experience using that blade system on the Sawstop? Given how specialized it is, I wonder if it will play nice with the Sawstop. I don't have room for two tablesaws (mainly because of my multiple giant bandsaw obsession!).

I'd really like to keep this on track instead of trainwrecking into "only idiots hurt themselves on tablesaws..." because I have met some world class craftsmen with 50 years experience who push wood with their Django nubs from one split second mishap. Lets not even talk about the jobsite accidents that Mrs. C sees in the emergency room at work every night. Thx for the input.

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

[Mark Gunter]

An interesting question. I wonder if Steve Gass is still around? I remember him as being a very personable and approachable guy, and it seems you've had dealings with him before; you might contact him and discuss the specifics if you don't hear from someone here who is actually using that setup. IMO, the Sawstop was a great device and should be a standard safety feature on new TS's in some form or another - but that's not our world, unfortunately.

[Grommet]

James-
Since you've already owned the the Stopsaw, Powermatic and the Unisaw, you are in a better position than most to know what you can and should expect in a good saw. I agree with Mark that this technology should be available much more broadly. In a perfect would I could be able to retrofit my Rigid contractors saw and would not hesitate to spend the cash to do so. I have no experience with the Stopsaw, so I would want to know before purchasing their saw if the fence system was at least approaching the quality of the Biesmeyer unit available on Delta products (I am actually pretty happy with my Rigid fence). Maybe you could describe their fence system for us?

While I think this is a hugely important safety advancement, I would encourage all who use it to remember that even with the Stopsaw feature, kickback and major injuries resulting from it, will still be a problem that calls for proper safety accessories and avoidance of situations resulting in a bind during the cut. Stay safe everyone!

Scott

[j. condino]

I have a Biesmeyer fence on my unisaw that I upgraded with an 80/20 extruded fence; it is accurate enough that I can use it to join upright bass 44" top wedges @ 2.5" thick and using hot hide glue the joint is as good as I can get with the $400 plane and it just takes a few minutes. If it didn't meet my neurotic standards, I wouldn't use it. In the past owned all 3 of the Delta style fences, and also the adjustable Vega. They all have subtle differences, none being perfect for everything. The low end Sawstop fence is definitely less than the Bies. but the one that comes on the PCS and institutional saws to me is actually better than the newer aluminum rail Beismeyer fences.

I'd pay a happy fortune to be able to retrofit my vintage saw with that technology, especially if they made it in the US, but that is not an option. I think that was the original goal with the sawstop project but they had tremendous resistance from everyone in the industry so they went to manufacturing.

They have sold enough of them now that I'm surprised there is not a little nerdy maker forum of guys wiring up special chips to hotrod and bypass things on a sawstop...'still curious about the fret saw system; I'm pretty attached to it.

[Clinchriver]

The only Sawstop I have used is the one in the Knoxville Woodcraft cutting the notch in the X-bracing on a group build charity guitar. You have been over two or three times for the Luthiers meetings I'll bet Paul would let you give your fret slotting setup a whirl.

[j. condino]

The guys at Sawstop told me it will only work with either a 10" blade or an 8" with the dado blade cartridge and that it won't even turn on with anything smaller, regardless if you try to bypass the controls. They also mentioned that they get a dozen calls a week about this. As it stands right now, nobody in the nation makes a comparable .023" fret slotting blade that can be used with the number one selling saw in the country. If I spend $4000, I'll have to go across town and use one of my apprentice's $200 portable saws to cut fret slots.....Of all the blades and tools in the shop, the fret slotting blade sticking up 2mm off the deck is probably the safest one I own. I've cut my hand deeper with the manual fretsaw.

How's that for irony??????

I made up some beautiful giant baritone guitar ziricote fingerboards today with the 63 year old nostop....

[Marty Jacobson]

Sounds like a good excuse to get a Bridgeport.

[tree]

Multiple giant bandsaws???

Jeez, it was bad enough with the finger planes and the Snowflake, but now my tool envy is close to unmanageable . . .

[j. condino]

So I did buy the PCS model Sawstop and am very happy with it- it is a very very fine working machine, far better than my old Unisaw, Powermatic or any of the other saws I have owned. The riving knife alone is almost worth the price of the saw, my insurance company loves it, and I can relax when the rookies use it. I did a 20 year lifespan workup and after I sold the vintage Unisaw, the Sawstop wound up costing me something like $2.30 a week.....

I also figured out how to bypass the controls several different ways and use my LMI fretsaw blade for about 25 cents and a bit of creativity, but probably best not to post it on the worldwidewaste of time. Stop by for a visit with a few malt beverages and I'll show you how....

Clark! 'Have not seen you around these parts in a while. No need for bandsaw envy; the only reason I own that giant Yates snowflake is because I build double basses. For a mandolin builder it is just a 3000 lb doorstop....

[tree]

It may be a 3000 lb doorstop, but that is one more beautiful old piece of iron, dude.

I'm guessing from the timing of your post that maybe you stayed up to watch the Cubs make history. I went to bed in the 5th, when Maddon yanked Hendrix out, I hated that decision. And it's a good thing I did, the drama hadn't even started yet! What an incredible baseball game!

[j. condino]

A bit of followup. In conversation with almost every instrument builder I know, the ability to cut fret slots is a big deal- a deal breaker for most. Since the folks who design and build Sawstops are very aware of the limitations and currently have no interest in our nerdy little luthier market, here is how I did it.

The primary goal was to be able to use the LMII 5" x.023" fret slotting blade, not the ability to use the safety brake. With a 10" or 8" blade and matching cartridge, you can use the saw with either the brake on or toggle the key switch and you bypass the safety mechanism, but the saw will still work. This allows test runs or knowingly cutting wet or recycled materials without triggering things. As sold, you can mount up a smaller than 8" blade on the arbor, but the sensor will not recognize it because the gap between the cartridge and the blade is too far; the saw will not even power on anything- not even the control panel so you can bypass things. I lightly tapped one of the holes in the cartridge, inserted a small bolt, and secured a rigid section of copper wire. Bring the wire over to the blade and electrical connection gets close enough to you mimic the saw blade gap. Turn on the bypass mode and you can even use the diagnostic LED readouts to dial in the exact gap needed.

I only use this with my fret slotting blade; I'm not worried about getting cut from 2mm of that blade being exposed. I take it off when I'm finished and run it in the factory configuration.

A ten cent hack for a $4000 saw problem....

Thanks to the folks over at the telecaster nerd forum for sharing this basic idea.

j.
www.condino.com

https://www.facebook.com/Condino-Str...6588557518578/

[Marty Jacobson]

Interesting. Is it a Hall effect sensor?

[Mark Gunter]

According to Gass' Sawstop patent, his system may use a Hall effect or other sensor:

”...a sensor, such as a Hall effect sensor, an electromagnetic field sensor, an optical sensor, or an electrical sensor. The woodworking machine may take the form of a saw, the working portion may be a blade adapted to cut when spinning, and the dangerous condition may be a person contacting the blade.”

[Mark Gunter]

I was unaware until today that there was currently an open window to make comments to the Consumer Product Safety Commission to require SawStop-style safety systems on all table saws sold in the U.S.

The deadline on consumer's ability to make comments for or against this safety technology ends tomorrow, July 26.

Article: http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/ne...able-saw-rules

[j. condino]

Done.

Thanks Mark.

[Bill McCall]

Would have saved my some stitches 40 years ago. An absolutely wonderful invention.

[Karl Hoyt]

Would have saved my some stitches 40 years ago. An absolutely wonderful invention.

I retired from a local high school as a woodworking/guitar building teacher last year. About 8 years ago, I went to the principal and showed him the saw-stop video where the inventor trips the saw with his own finger. Now, this is a very parsimonious (cheep) guy. I warned him that the saw was probably double the cost of a decent delta or even powermatic. He didn't blink when he signed the purchase order.. When you compare the cost of the saw with the cost of a lawsuit when a 15 year old cuts himself badly... or worse.... no comparison. The way I taught kids to use ANY saw, the probability that someone would get cut was pretty small, but I ended my career with a lot less stress. And it is a great, accurate saw! I didn't use my fret slotting sawblade on it, we still had a Unisaw which was dedicated for a stacked dado blade. I wonder if you can just install the blade and use the over-ride feature to get the .023 saw running on the saw-stop? I never tried it as I was the only one slotting fingerboards.

[j. condino]

Karl- You cannot install a blade and then override the system. You have to have the proper blade in place at startup, the machine runs all of the diagnostics to check and see if it is setup properly, and then you have the option of override.

A bit of an update: After using my "bypass antenna" for about six months and 50+ fingerboards slotted, I set off the system last week. I think it may have been the antenna being a bit too close and dust or vibration causing it to make contact. I installed my spare cartridge in five minutes, made a quick adjustment, and was back at it. Interestingly, here is the cartridge that was set off. I was pleasantly surprised by the minimal amount of damage to the drilled out aluminum "brake" section. When you set this off with a big 10" blade, the whole thing gets deformed as it absorbs the energy. With the LMI fret saw blade, it only made a tiny little kerf on the corner and the blade still works fine. It does however release an internal contact wire that makes it no longer usable, so I was out $60. Luckily I can buy them at Klingspore right down the road from me.