Lloyd Loar Mandolins

[FLATROCK HILL]

...So it is not the actual sound that makes them worth $175,000 compared to a $10,000 high end modern F5. It's all the reasons of rareity, Bill Monroe etc as mentioned but no one can tell me that the SOUND can make one mandolin worth $175000 against a good high end $10,000 modern mandolin. Even if it was felt that the tone was "special" compared to a $10,000 modern F5 then that may make it worth $15,000 but that's all.

You are right of course, rarity is a factor...surely a huge factor. But, while you (or I) may not perceive a tonal difference that merits 175K, neither one of us can say with certainty that it doesn't exist.

I don't have that kind of money to spend. Even if I did, I'm not sure I could justify spending it on one of those beautiful old F5s.

I do respect the opinions of those (players) who have chosen to own one. Just one example...Reischman.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Flatrockhill - "....may not perceive a tonal difference that merits 175K, neither one of us can say with certainty that it doesn't exist". Exactly !. Some people might hear a difference & some people won't,although just how much a person's imagination comes into it i couldn't guess. If we're told often enough by ''informed'' persons that A is better than B,then less informed persons can come to doubt their own opinion that B is in fact,better than A.

I remember that shortly after i bought my 'used' Ellis "A" style,a friend & fellow Cafe member brought his own lovely Heiden "A" style down to my home & we compared them one against the other using both our picks - his a Blue Chip, & mine a Primetone.
I couldn't tell one from the other using either pick,my friend thought that maybe my Ellis was a bit 'rounder' in tone,but to my ears,they sounded very,very much alike.

You mention John Reischman - JR is widely regarded as having possibly 'the best' Loar out there,but i've seen a home made video of JR & Chris Thile jamming together,JR on his Loar, & CT on his famous 'Dude' & honestly,i couldn't tell one from the other. You could tell who was playing though,CT's technique was very different that JR's. I still prefer the tone of CT's original Dude. to that of his current Loar - but that's just my taste in tone. Apart from rarity value,can we really say that a 'Loar' is worth the cash asked for them ? - on a tonal basis,my opinion is that there are many modern mandolins that 'sound as good' - 'but different',& in some,the difference may be very small indeed (IMHO). I haven't heard him play one,but i wonder just how JR's Heiden mandolins sound in his hands - pretty darned 'special' i'd imagine,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

We can debate for ever (and sometimes it seems like it) about "tone" and financial "worth"..... it is a funny old world...

To inject a slightly different angle into that, I have a couple of guitars that are both "worth" quite a lot. I also have a fairly recent (2007) guitar built by a maker who for whatever reason, never got a foothold or real reputation in the traditional dread area and who then dropped the line entirely (Breedlove). Those sold for "only" $1500. I happily use the latter and use it both live and for recordings often in preference to the others.... I like how sounds. It is very precisely intonated. It mics up well. It plays well.

Total sacrilige and heresy... but there you go

[Timbofood]

Just for reference, perceived value is just that. An instrument, diamond, vintage car, or whatever is only worth the perceived value when:
A- A purchase price is met or,
B- the item is insured and suffers loss or irreparable damage (theft or destruction)
Nothing has any real "value" until someone else sells/buys it.
That said, if I had the money and would enjoy the "Pride of Ownership" I'd get one in a New York minute!
Prime example of why these are such gems is shown in the "Tony Williamson, Lloyd Loar" thread where he plays "Golden Slippers"! That would be in the running for sure, after I get my Halsey!

[JFDilmando]

it always cracks me up when someone subjectively says that something is "worth it" or "not worth it", or something like "even if I had the money, I wouldn't spend it on that".... all that reveals is the relative value or scarcity of money to that particular person. It reminds me of a boss, berating an employee for spending so much on a dinner on the expense account, and challenging the employee to spend the money "like it was your own"..... then being shocked when the next expense account comes back with a bottle of $200 wine on it in one dinner.... "I thought I said to treat these expenses as if you were paying with your own money !!" says the boss....
"well," sighs the employee, "I have been holding back, knowing the business was struggling, but my family has been in politics for generations, and this is how we eat every night."

You can't assume your perception of what is of any value means ANYTHING to anyone else, unless you are assuming they are as poor or as rich as you are... or that they have hearing as poor as yours !!

[Ivan Kelsall]

John - I take your point fully. But,there are people around with boat loads of cash who choose to buy 'this' rather than 'that' simply because it's a 'preference', scarcity of cash doesn't come into it. However - amongst us mere cash strapped mortals,your point has a ring of truth. 'Priorities' also come into our choice of what or what not to buy or even 'whether to buy'.
Currently,i have enough cash to buy my 'dream mandolin' - but - that cash is my home emergency cash,accrued over several years, & living in a 150 year old house,you never know when it's going to be required. My point - many factors come into play when deciding whether to spend cash,not simply if you have it or not. Somebody once told me the secret of ''how the rich stay rich'' - they don't spend anything !
Ivan

[UlsterMando]

JeffD cleared this for me . . .
What they are is inseparable from what they do.

[Jeff Mando]

Somebody once told me the secret of ''how the rich stay rich'' - they don't spend anything !
Ivan

Another version of that is, "never invest your OWN money -- always use somebody else's!"

Ivan, I have a similar house. My wife wanted a "historic" home.....

[Timbofood]

My house is just old.
Correction...."vintage"!
1935

[Ivan Kelsall]

Jeff - My home is far from Historic - Hysterical maybe,but Historic NOT !!! Imagine my overwhelming joy,when,a week before Christmas 2012,my wife called me downstairs to see this - a huge hole in my hall ceiling caused by a badly repaired lead pipe having leaked water onto a 150 year old plaster & lath ceiling. Fortunately,my brother in law repaired it & replaced all the old lead piping with steel lined plastic piping & put a new ceiling, complete with plaster coving up for us. The guy who does my decorating for me got it done 2 the day before Christmas eve.
This is the reason why i need an 'emergency fund'. The previous year,i had to have a wall in my backyard knocked down & re-built = EXPENSE!!!!,
Ivan

[Jeff Mando]

Jeff - My home is far from Historic - Hysterical maybe,but Historic NOT !!! Imagine my overwhelming joy,when,a week before Christmas 2012,my wife called me downstairs to see this - a huge hole in my hall ceiling caused by a badly repaired lead pipe having leaked water onto a 150 year old plaster & lath ceiling. Fortunately,my brother in law repaired it & replaced all the old lead piping with steel lined plastic piping & put a new ceiling, complete with plaster coving up for us. The guy who does my decorating for me got it done 2 the day before Christmas eve.
This is the reason why i need an 'emergency fund'. The previous year,i had to have a wall in my backyard knocked down & re-built = EXPENSE!!!!,
Ivan

Not to mention a 150 year old house has 150 year old trees that need maintaining. Even in Mississippi, those guys don't work cheap!

[jim simpson]

Not to mention a 150 year old house has 150 year old trees that need maintaining. Even in Mississippi, those guys don't work cheap!

Use this picture when someone asks why are you selling your (fill in the blank).

[Ivan Kelsall]

I also forked out £3,000 UK ($4,000 US), to have my roof totally replaced a couple of years ago. I'd run out of pots & pans to place under the dripping water coming through my ceiling !.
I don't see my 'dream mandolin' appearing over the horizon any time soon. If i was still working,i'd already have it,
Ivan
Maybe this should go in the ''Home improvements'' section ?.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I also forked out £3,000 UK ($4,000 US), to have my roof totally replaced a couple of years ago. I'd run out of pots & pans to place under the dripping water coming through my ceiling !.
I don't see my 'dream mandolin' appearing over the horizon any time soon. If i was still working,i'd already have it,
Ivan
Maybe this should go in the ''Home improvements'' section ?.

What IS your dream mandolin Ivan? Or is it just a concept awaiting realization?

[Capt. E]

Yeah, my paid for house is just hitting 50 y/o and I have neighbors that are having to replace their cast iron sewer lines (47 year life expectancy, I am told) The cost can run up to $30K. Yeah, I really don't need a $10K+ mandolin. I'd like to retire comfortably in a decent home with everything working.
I once was able to play an unsigned Loar (first batch after LL stopped signing) and it was very very nice. I am envious of all of you who have played (and owned) more that one GREAT instrument.
I also really appreciate the guys at Fiddler's Green letting me play an Ellis (and other fine mandolins) when they have one on the wall. It keeps the dream alive.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Andrew - Most folk on here if they've read my posts over the years,will know that i have a distinct liking for Tom Ellis's mandolins. Going back many years,when the old 'Frets' magazine was still being published,they ran an article on Tom Ellis & the mandolin that he'd made for Ricky Skaggs. Even though i'd never held an F5 style mandolin,i could recognise the incredible workmanship. Many years later,at a UK Bluegrass festival,i got to hear one up close & i thought it was simply immense !. For me - it was as good as i'd ever want a mandolin to sound. It was many years afterwards that i actually bought my first mandolin.

I'm very fortunate that a couple of years ago (almost) ,Trevor at TAMCO UK, made me an offer that i couldn't refuse on a used Ellis "A" style. Actually,i did refuse it at first,then relented. The mandolin is excellent in every way,but an Ellis "F" style is still my 'dream' mandolin - i'm lucky to be half way there (sort of !) & i do get a real buzz out of playing it, & thanks again Trevor !!.
Ivan

[Verne Andru]

The mandolins that are sold under the brand name "The Loar" have no connection with the Gibson built Lloyd Loar signed mandolins. That is strictly marketing.

I realize it can be suicide to counter-point a moderator, but my understanding is The Loar mandolins are designed by Greg Rich who was a Gibson custom shop builder and I've read claims he had access to Lloyd Loar's notes and building techniques which have been modified and used in the new builds. The Loar 600 model is supposed to be very similar to the '20's era Loar signed Gibsons, again going strictly from what I've read.

I have no experience with The Loar other than owning one of their archtop guitars, which is lovely, but I do own the top of the line Paris Swing mandolin, also designed by Greg Rich, and it is a fabulous sounding and playing instrument.

[Verne Andru]

What happened at Gibson in the late 60's and 70's was what happens to so many companies that get the name as "the best". They start to believe that people have to have their product and will continue to buy it regardless, so why not cut corners produce it cheaper charge more and rake in the money. Thankfully Gibson seems to have turned back before it was too late, a lot of companies don't. Even so they suffered some damage, they will never be THE only mandolin to have like they once was.

Again going just by what I've read, the decline in quality at Gibson was discovered to coincide with the introduction of noisy automated equipment in the Gibson plant which made it impossible for the workers to "hear" the instruments they were building. Once this was discovered to be the problem source and corrected - during the 90's IIRC - quality rose dramatically.

[BradKlein]

Again going just by what I've read, the decline in quality at Gibson was discovered to coincide with the introduction of noisy automated equipment in the Gibson plant...

I think this is a vast oversimplification of the complex history of manufacturing at Gibson.

I would also agree with MikeEdgerton's point. There is no more connection between 'The Loar' mandolins and Loar-signed Gibson mandolins beyond a superficial similarity in shape and some design elements that are common in F-style mandolins. I don't believe there are any surviving 'notes' or 'building techniques' of Lloyd Loar's that have come down to anyone at Gibson or elsewhere that are not widely known to a anyone who is interested. That's not to say that Gibson hasn't developed its own way of doing things - and in recent years their top efforts were led by some of the most careful observers of the original Loar mandolins.

[Verne Andru]

I think this is a vast oversimplification of the complex history of manufacturing at Gibson.

I would also agree with MikeEdgerton's point. There is no more connection between 'The Loar' mandolins and Loar-signed Gibson mandolins beyond a superficial similarity in shape and some design elements that are common in F-style mandolins. I don't believe there are any surviving 'notes' or 'building techniques' of Lloyd Loar's that have come down to anyone at Gibson or elsewhere that are not widely known to a anyone who is interested. That's not to say that Gibson hasn't developed its own way of doing things - and in recent years their top efforts were led by some of the most careful observers of the original Loar mandolins.

There was quite a thread here a while ago about surviving Loar building notes and the connection between The Loar and Gibson comes via Greg Rich, former Cafe attendee, who was one of their custom shop builders that used that knowledge in his The Loar designs.

And, yes I've oversimplified the complex history of Gibson manufacturing as you can do a search on this site and find tons of other threads that speak to this issue.

Perhaps doing a search might help fill in the blanks for some who have not already seen them.

[f5loar]

A "bad" Loar? I'm with Ken W. on this one except I say "show me a bad Loar and I'll show you it's a fake". That's a nice way of saying there are indeed some pretty good fake Loars out there (see other threads) that do have the fake labels with fake serial nos. and that do fool a lot of people most of the time. Some of these really nice fake ones are over 40 years old, so they even got that old smell to them now. I've had several guys tell me they were not impressed with the Loar they played. So I checked into it and sure enough it was a fake. You get into spending over $100K for any musical instrument, you best be getting that 2nd opinion as to what is right and what might not be right. Martin guitars are a good examples. Many of those 30's D28s were re-topped at the factory in the 40's. The same workers may have done the repairs. They get traded around without an expert looking into it. Now I'm not saying these are crooks doing this. Many times it's the children of those original owners who were told by their deceased love one it was bought new in 1936. What that deceased loved one did not tell the grandkids, is old granddad got drunk one night, fell off the stage, broke the neck off, send it back to the factory for a free new neck. It's like buying those old vintage cars, better look under the hood and check that VIN number on the motor and transmission. Lots of little things can affect price in these collectible "things". Now I've played a few Loars that were not up to par as far as set up. Bridge not seated correctly, truss rod out of adjustment, old strings, etc. And in all reality the really good luthiers that do know how to set up one correctly have not been around but a few decades. And I also agree there are some really good builders of the classic Loar F5. That's why you see pros like Thile, Skaggs, Grisman, Osborne, etc playing "other" brands, but they still got their Loars. And comparing Osbornes Fern to a Loar is really not right because recently serial nos./FON have been "readjusted" from known factory records and the Osborne Fern starting building in 1928 and shipped out in 1929. So it's not as close to the unsigned Loars as once thought and this would account to the difference in sound.

[MikeEdgerton]

but my understanding is The Loar mandolins are designed by Greg Rich who was a Gibson custom shop builder and I've read claims he had access to Lloyd Loar's notes and building techniques which have been modified and used in the new builds.

So Lloyd Loar designed F5 mandolins with no tone bars? "The Loar" built at least one model without them. To be honest, every F5 out there is a copy of a Gibson in one way or the other. "The Loar" as a brand name is just that, a brand name. Greg Rich is a good businessman that saw an opportunity and took it and he has some good and some less than stellar instruments built under different brand names. There's no magic in that connection.

http://www.axlusa.com/aboutus.html

[Timbofood]

Verne, not casting aspersions but, if you are going to "paraphrase" information available via search, why not footnote it if you have done the research?
I'll go one more Tom, show me the worst Loar and the finest "The Loar" drunk, blind, and, stupid and, I still bet I can hear the difference in six notes and two chops.
This is silly. The one has no more to do with the other than green cheese and the man in the moon!
I must add the "value" point is probably best expressed in Walter Huston's character in "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" regarding the actual value of gold. Maybe Jaycat can attach an appropriate scene, I am too tired for that tonight.
Verne, I really don't mean to step on toes, it's all honest opinion here. No one is really right or wrong.
"Voxus Populorum" (Voice of the People), conversation is all good.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'd possibly agree with F5loar that there are no 'bad' Loars,but i'd bet some of them fall short of being as good as the really good ones. In other words,while the very best Loars will sound superb,the 'lesser ones' might sound only as good as or even 'not as good as' a lot of modern mandolins. Ronnie McCoury for one thinks that his Gilchrist is a 'better balanced' mandolin than his Loar. Mike Compton isn't a great fan of Loars,preferring his Gilchrist. However,that doesn't make Loar mandolins 'bad',just not the preferred weapon of some players.
Again - it's all down to personal choice & the way we hear things. Our individual hearing is different to one degree or another. My friend & fellow Cafe member Paul Cowham thought that he could hear differences between my Ellis "A" style & his Heiden "A" style mandolins when we played them back to back & 'blind' for each other,i couldn't hear any difference at all.
I don't give any creedence to the ''Loars are always better than any other mandolins'' scenario,never have & never will. It's down to personal choice. If i preferred a Loar over a selection of mandolins,then that would be my choice at that time. Another time,i might prefer another make of mandolin over the same Loar -it depends on which other mandolins come along. Purely my personal opinion,
Ivan

[William Smith]

I'd place a bet that anyone who possibly owned the "worst" real Loar out there WOULD be a happy camper! Unless they have the capital to pursue another one! I don't think I would complain because I don't believe there is a bad one, granted some are better than others but like F5loar said it comes down to setup. While a bunch are better than others each one is different and has class so to speak. Hey they are the original! Some have hardly been played and are just sitting around in cases or vaults. I'm a believer on the more ya play em rule so show me a bad one and I'll buy it for way less than half price