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Thread: TKL Mandolins

  1. #26
    Registered User nordian's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Well Johnny-Alien you finally did wind up getting a couple of responses to your question about the mandolins in question and they were favorable. I know there has been much controversy around here regarding Kyle Dunn and TheMandoShop, some positive, some negative. I know nothing about the mandolin in question but my experience with Kyle when I bought my JBovier A5 Special was nothing but positive. He was courteous and professional with me on the phone and when my mandolin arrived the setup was very good including the Allen tailpiece that I had him install before shipping it to me here in NC. One other thing to note, unlike some others, he never solicited a feedback or review from me in any way. Just my experience.
    Lennie Lowery
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  3. #27
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Kyle says he tap tunes the tops after they are installed to a 440 HZ which I believe is an A note and I believe Sinimoff suggests to carve them at a D note before they are installed so having the sides and back on a mandolin surely does change the tap tuning note, I guess Kyle feels that 440 HZ is ideal, if it makes his mandolin sound like he wants then more power to him...I just wonder why he can`t say who actually makes them for him...

    Just for the heck of it I checked a mandolin that was built using Roger`s book "How to Build a Bluegrass Mandolin" and it rings out at a true A note when tapped, I check one other one that is made by another well known builder and it rings at a note just a tad sharp of an A note...I don`t know what that proves but both builders use the tap tuning method and tune the tops to a D note when they are carved....From that I gather that a mandolin does really change that much when put together...

    Willie

  4. #28
    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Poole View Post
    Kyle says he tap tunes the tops after they are installed to a 440 HZ which I believe is an A note and I believe Sinimoff suggests to carve them at a D note before they are installed so having the sides and back on a mandolin surely does change the tap tuning note, I guess Kyle feels that 440 HZ is ideal, if it makes his mandolin sound like he wants then more power to him...I just wonder why he can`t say who actually makes them for him...

    Willie,

    There has been a trend in the stringed instrument business this century, to contract with factories in China (there's quite a few of them) to build instruments according to the specs you provide, then do some level of QA first, then finish work on your part, with the completed instrument bearing your brand/trademark name. It's the same business model that Jeff Cowherd does with his JBovier line and others as well. Kyle mentioned to me 2 years ago that this was in the works for him to put out his own line. The final "tuning" is just his wrinkle that from what I can tell, works!

    People who use that business model however will probably be tight-lipped to reveal their production source(s) though...YMMV
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  5. #29

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    That's one of the few things that concerned me a bit. I asked him where they were made and he was open about it being China but the website clearly says hand crafted in the USA which is pretty dishonest.

  6. #30
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Since it was established that this was not Johnny's first thread, I sent him a PM and apologized for grouping him with the questionable posts about the Mando Shop from the past. However, no matter what a good dealer Kyle Dunn may be to some, there are definately some question marks surrounding his honesty. Stating on his web site that his signature line of mandolins are "Hand crafted in the USA" when they clearly are not is just another example of that.

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  8. #31

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Allen, that sounds similar to "random hippie sanding" to me.................

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  10. #32
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNick View Post
    There has been a trend in the stringed instrument business this century, to contract with factories in China (there's quite a few of them) to build instruments according to the specs you provide, then do some level of QA first, then finish work on your part, with the completed instrument bearing your brand/trademark name. It's the same business model that Jeff Cowherd does with his JBovier line and others as well.
    Northfield is another brand using that business model.

  11. #33

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    There is, I'm afraid, a bit of mob mentality involved in the rush to knock this dealer. He may well have done things in the past that merit some skepticism, but some (not all) of the criticism being heaped upon him here comes from people whose 'experiences' with the man go no further than reading bad things about him on the Cafe.

    I mentioned my Thai friend who is very happy with his TKD. There are hardly any mandolins available in Bangkok, and my friend needed something better than the low-end (and over-priced) Fenders that pop up in stores from time to time. He contacted Kyle, identified a TKD from photographs supplied, listened to audio clips sent to him by Kyle, negotiated a fair price for the instrument, and trusted Kyle to get it shipped half-way around the world to Bangkok. The instrument arrived as promised, in excellent condition, beautifully set up and ready to play. My friend (and his son, who is something of a mandolin prodigy) are delighted with the instrument and with the honesty and reliability of the seller. I believe this is much more relevant to the OP than vague, fourth-hand rumours eagerly passed on by people with no experience of the dealer.

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  13. #34
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dotneck View Post
    Northfield is another brand using that business model.
    No. Absolutely not.

    Totally different setup entirely.

    http://www.northfieldinstruments.com/about-us/our-story

    There is a world of difference between what Northfield do and the 'contract builders' discussed above.
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    No. Absolutely not.

    Totally different setup entirely.

    http://www.northfieldinstruments.com/about-us/our-story

    There is a world of difference between what Northfield do and the 'contract builders' discussed above.
    +1
    click "our team" in the left hand column within the link-5 people make up Northfield(3 builders and 2 who setup). that's small shop, less than say SantaCruz guitars.

    d

  16. #36

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNick View Post
    Mary,

    I think final set-up work is not the same skill set as tone-bar graduations; if I'm wrong and the skill-level/difficulty is the same, I stand corrected, but I don't think so...
    Basic seating of frets (the frets in both instruments had to be reseated on each of these) is not set up work in my book. This is mandolin building 101. It should not go out the door unplayable. Cosmetics and refinement are a different issue.
    Good Advice: Play before you pay, and know your product and your market.

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  18. #37
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by darylcrisp View Post
    +1
    click "our team" in the left hand column within the link-5 people make up Northfield(3 builders and 2 who setup). that's small shop, less than say SantaCruz guitars.

    d
    Northfield mandolins are all built in the USA? Are we back to what a factory is vs a shop? The business model is pretty basic and has matured over the years. Because there's a picture of an individual on the website means little. They are still contracting to have a mandolin built to their specifications. If they suddenly are selling thousands of units and the operation in China can't keep up does it grow? This is a known model that has worked for a whole lot of companies and to pretend that it's different is to ignore reality.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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  20. #38
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Slightly off topic but...

    While not usually a fan of black-top instruments, that mottled grey "barn-board" look strikes me as really interesting, especially backed up with nicely flamed maple (I'm guessing) back & sides of matching color.
    - Ed

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  21. #39
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Northfield mandolins are all built in the USA? Are we back to what a factory is vs a shop? The business model is pretty basic and has matured over the years. Because there's a picture of an individual on the website means little. They are still contracting to have a mandolin built to their specifications. If they suddenly are selling thousands of units and the operation in China can't keep up does it grow? This is a known model that has worked for a whole lot of companies and to pretend that it's different is to ignore reality.

    I would suggest that you don't "contract" with yourself to have something made.

    You go to a third party. That's the key difference in my opinion.

    Anyone can have instruments built-to order by a whole range of what are typically fairly anonymous (outside of the industry) builders. These can range from quite small operations, to very large ones. They are used by a host of well-known names, especially for budget and medium range instruments. A lot of these 'contract builders' used to be based in Japan, but in more recent years have moved base to Korea and China. They usually offer a baseline range of designs that you can simply have your name put on, to more involved 'true custom' building, so many of the designs we see again and again are essentially all the same, except for the name they are sold under.

    Northfield are quite different in two important respects:

    1. They do not 'contract build' for anyone else;
    2. The instruments they offer are all built entirely 'in house' in one or other of their own facilities, one in China and one in the US and those instruments bear their own name, not that of a store or third party importer. In short, if you buy one of these you know who made it. Northfield did. Not some unidentified third-party factory who is simultaneously building for other 'brands'.

    Personally, I do feel that is quite a significant difference from say, a store or importer simply putting out a contract to have something made that will carry their own name, not that of the actual builder. Of course, good quality instruments can be produced using both methods, it all depends on the costings, the QA and specifications. As we all know, Kentucky have made some very nice instruments over the years, and have changed actual builders, factories (and countries) a number of times.
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

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  23. #40
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    OK, so Saga does the same thing. The people they contract don't build for anyone else. There are literally dozens of companies that do the same thing. There's nothing magical here. The big talent comes in managing the process. The people that can manage that process import quality products. The ones that don't manage it well generally fall down. Either way, it's the same process no matter how you dress it up.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  24. #41

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    I agree. I don't think J.Bovier is using a large shared factory to make their stuff...Jade didn't and it sounds like TKD is not either. It sounds like there is one factory cranking out identical Mandolins with different logos and perhaps I am naive but I didn't think that was happening (at least not with all of them) although it's very common in the import guitar business.

  25. #42
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Northfield mandolins are all built in the USA? Are we back to what a factory is vs a shop? The business model is pretty basic and has matured over the years. Because there's a picture of an individual on the website means little. They are still contracting to have a mandolin built to their specifications. If they suddenly are selling thousands of units and the operation in China can't keep up does it grow? This is a known model that has worked for a whole lot of companies and to pretend that it's different is to ignore reality.
    Mike I honestly don't know what goes on within the walls of the Northfield boyz. What I do know is what these instruments do when held in hand and played. Definitely an instrument built with intent by a couple of people who know what they are doing extremely well.

    Not having visited either shop(within the USA or Asia), I am going by what info is available on the NF website. The info below taken from the NF website leads me to think it is a group effort, group owned, and there is no party contracting out. They are simply working together to build quality high end mandolins after having met and worked together in the past.

    Not being involved with the company first hand, I have no idea how the business model for Northfield is set up. I do have a strong gut feeling it is exactly how they present it on the website.

    d

    This from the NF website:

    Our company is owned together as a group, with each member investing and each member sharing in the rewards. This makes us the same as many traditional shops and very, very different from most of the current international business ventures in the music industry. It’s simple, we all take responsibility for our small company’s work—so we all share in the results, good or bad. Aligning our interests, even those related to paying the bills, has meant a great deal to our development as a team and as friends.

    (and I stand to be corrected, in my earlier reply I mentioned 5 people making up the Northfield shop(factory,company,team). in reading over some interesting tidbits on Northfield I saw this list as making up the Northfield team:

    Adrian Bagale
    Derek Smith
    Peter Bagale
    Dianhong Yin
    Kosuke Kyomori
    Jidou Qin
    Xi Sheng Zhang

    *what each individual does or where they live I don't know-an email to NF would get the exact job title of each, and if time permits later this weekend I may send an email to find out. if I get around to it i'll list the info next week. now back to cutting some hickory trim for the kitchen my wife and I just overhauled on a weeks vacation-pics to follow on the kitchen when I have time to do that as well.
    Last edited by darylcrisp; May-14-2016 at 8:47pm.

  26. #43

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    This business model is nothing new, but the days of being "vague" about the country of origin or concealing that information are over, thanks to the internet and websites like MC. 20+ years ago, before pac-rim knockoffs were available inexpensively, Marc Silber comes to mind. Marc had commissioned Weissenborn copy guitars to be made in Paracho, Mexico. They were quite good and filled a small demand at the time for those who couldn't locate an original. There was no mention of where the guitar was made on the guitar, as I recall, only Marc's name. I know another seller of "handmade" mid-level classical guitars in Nashville, who imports his brand from Paracho and prints his own label on his computer. And yes, it is indeed a handmade guitar and very nice for the money. Most people associate Paracho instruments with the cheap, warped, and crudely finished Guitarron's seen at Mexican-owned convenience stores in the USA, but actually all grades of instruments are available in Paracho. I see this business model being more of an "old school" thing rather than intending to deceive. Similar to when a person says, I built a house in Florida, meaning they had a house built, rather than they actually did the building themselves. Reviews of Marc Silber guitars usually say made by Marc Silber of San Francisco, mostly due to lack of information available, but most people who were into these at the time knew the story and were fine with it. A deluxe "house brand" if you will.......

    I know an old Italian tailor who will still measure you and make you a suit completely by hand. However on his shelves are handmade shirts he sells, which he imports from Mexico. The work meets his approval and the impression is that he made them. Deceptive? Not really, IMHO, just playing upon the mysteries that go on with a "old world" business like being a tailor. I think luthiery has some of that same mystery to many people.

  27. #44
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    I remembered an article I read long before I had hands on with a Northfield, I then called and spoke with Adrian in Michigan, and since have spoken with Peter on a few items I needed exact answers with.

    This article was published in 2012 I think, I may still have the paper copy, but read it thru, and take note of how NF was started and why-on the last page it pretty much sums it up. A few people came together to form a company to produce a few high quality mandolins each month.

    I remember somewhere lately I saw mention of how many mandolins total that Northfield has made since its inception-i'll try to find that and post a link if I do. The amount wasn't a large number.

    http://www.northfieldinstruments.com...imited_web.pdf

    I remember an article(I think I read it here on the Café), where Will Kimble and his dad make Kimble mandolins. They live a couple states away, so the mandos get shipped back and forth a couple times to have each do a certain step in the build. I found that interesting and unusual, and it evidently works very well for them and the mandolins(and players who acquire one of these).
    found it:
    http://archive.mandolinsessions.com/dec05/interview.pdf

    d

  28. #45
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Total number produced is still only around 300....as of this April.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...dn-t-last-long

    Mine's a 'Big Mon' number 127 and just keeps getting better. Really fine mandolin indeed.
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

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  30. #46
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    Total number produced is still only around 300....as of this April.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...dn-t-last-long

    Mine's a 'Big Mon' number 127 and just keeps getting better. Really fine mandolin indeed.
    I remembered that #300, but I wasn't sure if that was just for that specific model, the standard F5S, or if it included the F2SB, the MasterModels, and the M Models. I haven't a clue. I may ask and see what total number there is.

    Apologies to the OP due to the way your thread turned, we need to let the NF discussion die off here and get back to your original questions.

    d

  31. #47
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    Allen, that sounds similar to "random hippie sanding" to me.................
    From the website " using hand tools through the sound holes ", I'm sorry, there is only so much one can do accurately to the top through the sound holes. To be fair I would like to hear how he does it.
    Charley

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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post
    From the website " using hand tools through the sound holes ", I'm sorry, there is only so much one can do accurately to the top through the sound holes. To be fair I would like to hear how he does it.
    I wasted a hundred bucks having Kyle do this procedure ! No difference in sound ( bad before and bad afterwards ). But I think the main problem was the poor job he did on replacing the frets. Several frets you could run a fishing line under.
    My two favorite pastimes are drinking wine and playing the mandolin but most of my friends would rather hear me drink wine! Adapted from quote by Mark Twain

  33. #49
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    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    ...Marc Silber comes to mind. Marc had commissioned Weissenborn copy guitars to be made in Paracho, Mexico. They were quite good and filled a small demand at the time for those who couldn't locate an original. There was no mention of where the guitar was made on the guitar, as I recall, only Marc's name....
    I bought one of those K & S Mexican-made Weissenborn copies on eBay. It was OK, but I didn't keep it long; the bridge pulled up, I had it re-glued, but once that kind of thing happens, I get a bit nervous about the quality of construction. I traded it in at Bernunzio's, I think on my Weber "sopranolin," along with a couple other instruments I wasn't playing at all.

    There is a great difference, IMHO, between setting up an exclusive shop overseas to make instruments you design, and inspect/set up when they arrive in the US -- and contracting with an established large-scale foreign manufacturer to put your imprint, on instruments that they make for you and for a variety of other US sellers.

    Don't know into which category Mandolin Shop and TKD mandolins fall, though I guess it's more the latter than the former. I've been quite satisfied, for example, with Gold Tone instruments, which are Asian-made, but supposedly carefully inspected and adjusted when received by Gold Tone in this country. I've been less satisfied with Johnson instruments, which seem to be more "generically" produced in China; I still have my Johnson resonator ukulele, but traded away the Johnson trip-cone guitar I purchased.

    There are many examples of Asian-made instruments made for US dealers, that are ID-ed as being nearly exactly like other instruments sold here under different labels. While I've never run across a TKD mandolin to try, and while they may be among the better-quality Asian imports for all I know, nothing I've read here or elsewhere suggests to me that they compare with Northfields, Eastmans, or the other specifically-made Asian mandolins.
    Allen Hopkins
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  34. #50

    Default Re: TKD Mandolins (TheMandoShop)

    Many of the insights here are partially correct.

    There are a whole lot of sources for instruments, but just a couple of factories dominate. Most of the imports are obviously from the same sources. You can tell by looking at them. These factories have their standard models that they can put any name on. They can do minor customization of the standard models (finish, binding, inlays, etc), Then, if you can commit to enough volume, custom instruments can be made.

    While many brands truly are selling the identical mandolins, not everything that looks the same is. Grades of wood, graduation and QC can make a big difference in the final product. We also have more than one factory producing similar instruments. These can look basically the same in images. In person there will be minor differences.

    There are only a handful of truly unique instruments coming from China. Much of what looks unique is still coming from these same large factories. If you have been at this long enough, you start to catch small similarities. Over the years I have seen what appear to be instruments from entirely different sources have small details such as incorrect nut spacing happen during the same timelines. This is on completely different instruments, with different materials used for the nuts, yet these otherwise unrelated instruments all have the string spacing change at the same time, then change back at the same time. Several brands having the quality of fret work fluctuate at the same time. Coincidence? Maybe once, but this sort of thing happens semi-regularly.

    Now how about the number of instruments where I have opened the box to find another brand of instrument inside. The boxes that have other brand names printed on the inside, invoices and other such stuff, used as packing material, or stuffed inside the instrument for finish work, then left there.


    There are also cases where instruments in the white or parts, may be made at the factory and then finished somewhere else. Everything is so intermixed. This happens with domestic instruments as well. And not just outsourcing within the USA. Sending American wood to China, to have parts made, and then parts come back to the USA for final assembly and instruments are sold as US Made, Some with "qualification", some not.

    "A product that is "Made in America" has to be assembled, and most of the cost of making the product incurred, in the United States. But that’s where things start to get a little tricky. (And that’s why it takes 40 pages to explain the rules.)"


    In the end, it is impossible for someone without inside information to know exactly how their instrument comes about.
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