What is OLD TIME?

[Cider]

Hi Z,

The bass makes me more aware of the ends of measures and phrases than I normally would be, and it ends up taking rhythmic focus off of the fiddle. At least for me. I'm sure there are lots of folks who would disagree with me.

It also makes all the tunes sound very similar. By the end of the evening the "boom boom boom" of the bass was driving me a little nuts. He's a fine bass player and I don't think the mix was bass-heavy or that the bass in question was super loud.

I like my old time music heavy on the fiddle. The bow pulses and syncopation with the banjo create a unique feel that gets lost when huge quarter notes are present on every down beat. Guitar playing can do this too, but if you have a good guitarist s/he can add some snap and a run or two that can shake a tune from those "oompa, oompa" moorings (I'm thinking Riley Puckett from the Skillet Lickers here).

Some fantastic modern old time bands have employed upright bassists. The Freight Hoppers and the Highwoods String Band come to mind. Out of the ones I've heard I think that the Highwoods did bass the best simply because they had two fiddlers that could overcome that low end sound. Would I prefer them without bass though? You bet.

I can't think of any string bands from the 20's that had an upright bassist that played a pizzicato style (though I've heard some bowed bass in the early recordings before). Some of them had organs or pianos that served a similar purpose, but I really think that the addition of pizzicato upright bass in old time music is a modern (post-bluegrass) phenomenon (though maybe someone here can cite a 20's stringband recording that proves me wrong).

And yes, Caleb sang. Fantastic voice especially on "Lazy John". I was inspired. He's an old time musician to watch, for sure. Honestly, I thought he was the best musician on stage that night (and he was up there with Dirk and Riley Baugus).

[Cider]

And let me just say real quick that I think the Foghorn Stringband is excellent.

This is all old time music we're talking about, and to nit pick like I'm doing is kind of obnoxious.

[mingusb1]

Hey, thanks Tom, really enjoy "reading into oldtime" a little bit here. #

I've been playing upright for about 8 years or so, and have been into oldtime for almost as long. #I echo your sentiments in that the fiddle and clawhammer (and mando since this is the cafe!) is often plenty for me. #

Many times I've been at my weekly gig with my band and have suggested that the fiddle, clawhammer, and mando players play some tunes without me--and they look at me like I'm nuts. #

Don't get me wrong, I love thumping away on a rockin' dance tune, even playing runs that echo some of the chord/melody progression. #But sometimes the stuff just doesn't need the bass.

Z

[Cider]

With a handle like Mingus I should have put two and two together. Hopefully I didn't offend you!

I will say that what a bass does do in old time is that it provides a great back beat for square dancing. Nothing like a bass to get your toes tapping. One of the problems with old time today (geez, here I go again!) is that we've removed the social/community aspect by stuffing it into a modern audience versus musician context. I'm not talking about jams here because they're obviously social. I'm talking about concerts.

Honestly, "concert" and "old time music" are kind of contrary if you think about it.

I bet if I were dancing to Foghorn and not passively sitting and watching them, I would have a slightly different opinion of the bass.

Z, have you ever bowed your bass in the context of old time music?

[bjc]

Wow...a TON of great info people...thanks, and uh, carry on y'all :-)

[bones12]

Old time music has been my compass for over thirty years whether playing in bands, with friends or just listening to it.Playing alone on the porch with mandolin or fiddle is a balm that soothes. The specific definitions are well laid out but it is a broad brushstroke of great music handed down aurally over 100 years with roots and branches that reach here and there. The sum is greater than the parts, solos really don't really add much and getting in a zen state when the "groove is on" says it all. The Old Time Herald is the finest champion of the old time community and it deserves to be read (and subscribed to) by all those who need old time all the time. Doug in Vermont

[LeftCoastMark]

Old Time is a genre name, invented by the black and white thinkers. It fits in there on the record racks with "Bluegrass" and "Rock" and "Country" and blah blah blah.

Stringband music, frozen in time at the dawn of the invention of recording technology, that's Old Time Music. A museum piece, dead and dusty, attracting those who lack imagination and the talent to do something new with it all.

But, of course, before the advent of recording technology, people just played. What's a genre name when your out on your back porch and the sun is setting, and you've got a jug and a fiddle and a harmonica and friends and time to kill.

I ignore rules. I play "old-time" music, fiddle tunes that are probably hundreds if not thousands of years old. I know an awful lot of them.

I play them on the mandolin. I've listened to a lot of African Drumming, and I incorporate all of those African Polyrhythms into my mandolin rhythm playing. Why? Because that's all I've got.

When my "old-time" stringband plays a contradance, the dancers don't ask if we're purists. We make their butts twitch and they beg for more. That hasn't changed for millenia. We play all of them old tunes. But we just ignore the rules, and everyone's happy.

Without recording technology, Bill Monroe would have still been Bill Monroe. He was just a stringband musician playing songs that had been around for a long time.

Old Time Music? Ignore the rule makers and play it.

jflynnstl, I always enjoy your posts. But I couldn't disagree with you more about pretty much everything related to the mandolin, and to playing "Old Time Music".

Of course, I'm also a Libertarian and an Anarchist.

[John Flynn]

jflynnstl, I always enjoy your posts. But I couldn't disagree with you more about pretty much everything related to the mandolin, and to playing "Old Time Music".

Interesting and ironic. I agree with pretty much everthing in your post and that is very close to the way I approach my old-time mando playing. Also, I consider myself a Liberterian and I get accused of being an Anarchist all the time, although I don't like that title. I am always at odds with the old-time purists in my area for espousing very similar ideas to yours. I'm not sure why you think we are that far apart, not that it would bother me if we were. I do like to get people to see both sides. Perhaps sometimes that makes it seem to you like I am taking the purist side. Anyhow, I like a good debate, so I'm happy!

[LeftCoastMark]

Happy here too, Johnny. And thanks for the discussion!

[John Ritchhart]

Sorry for starting the uproar. Old time to me doesn't have such a narrow definition but then I'm not a musicologist. The child ballads and popular tunes of the American Civil war are not Old Time by this definition. This is a small, select group I see. But then, "I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member." - G. Marx

[A.N. Orange]

I'm a youngster so I write with a bit of naivete but Oldtime seems to have become a more restrictive term. Rather than being an inclusive term, I see traditional stringbands (composed of a group with a fiddle playing fiddle tunes) being labeled "oldtime" more often than other styles. This seems to be a trend as I don't think the New Lost City Ramblers were ever deemed oldtime back in their day, though I might be wrong.
And I LOVE Foghorn.

[mingusb1]

Hey Tom, no offense taken at all. #I love good bass playing, but still see plenty of situations when the bass is not necessary. #I have only done a little bowing (probably should work on it more) on a few slow (mostly waltz time) tunes/songs. #Do you know examples of up-tempo songs recorded with bowed bass? #That would be a trip.

Do you have the 1st Foghorn cd? #I was telling Brian (bass player) I really liked the bass sound on there and he was saying the studio room was so hot that he was just barely hitting it.

Anyway, let's here more about old time!

How 'bout this:

"oldtime music, better than it sounds!"

Z

[Moose]

re: "old-time" - I can love, respect and appreciate the genre :- the historical, cultural, social..., etc. aspects - I even sometimes like to jam with/on it ; BUT, 10 fiddlers playing - note-for-note - "Sally Good'n"... for 20 minutes! - naaa..., I can't handle THAT! - of course IMHO only.

[Cider]

Stringband music, frozen in time at the dawn of the invention of recording technology, that's Old Time Music. A museum piece, dead and dusty, attracting those who lack imagination and the talent to do something new with it all.

I have no idea where a comment like this comes from or what use it's supposed to serve in this discussion.

Anyway, I think "old time" is a term just like any other: it's useful up to a point. I guess I'm one of those "purists" who defines old time in a pretty specific way, but I understand that it really is a term that can refer to an extraordinarily diverse number of musical styles.

[Cider]

Do you know examples of up-tempo songs recorded with bowed bass?

Hey Z,

Let me dig around a bit and see what I can find. I seem to remember some tracks on the Echoes of the Ozarks CDs having bowed bass...

[dwc]

I am not sure if its old-time, okay I'm pretty sure its not, but Edgar Meyer does a ton of very fats bass work with a bow. He and David Grisman do a mando/bass duet Mando Bass Boogie (fittingly). Meyer recorded one or two albums with Bela Fleck, so up tempo stuff there as well. Then again, Edgar and Yo-Yo Ma recorded an album with someone else (don't know who)that was sort of classical meets third stream meets old-time.

[luckylarue]

Group hug anyone? Just kidding! For listening, I'd recommend a recording by the Poplin Family from Smithsonian. Incredible stuff from S.C. Also, what about Leroy Troy? Would he be considered old-time? He's a must to see live. We hung out w/ him by the campfire all night at the Thomas Point Festival a few years ago. Great guy and he knows a ton of music. He also does a version of "Rose of Alabama" from the film, "Outlaw Josey Wales"...I gotta learn that one.

[Dagger Gordon]

I've got an old record by the Fuzzy Mountain String Band called 'Summer Oaks and Porch'. The band looked like youngish people who were into old-time music; whether they were genuine traditional mountain people I wouldn't know.
Anyway, I liked (and still like) the album a lot.
What happened to them? Are any of them still active?

[John Flynn]

Re: Fuzzy Mountain String Band

From what I can tell, FMSB was one of the key groups that lauched what you could call the "modern era" for old-time, back in the early 70's. This modern era was characterized by OT groups that were not necessarily "traditional mountain people," but just folks who wanted to play the music. BTW, Rounder has a CD of them in print, which is a compilation of thier first and second albums. It is excellent and in my area, it is used as THE reference for nearly every tune title on the track list.

[PhilGE]

What happened to them? Are any of them still active?

To fill in after Johnny's comments, you can find out more at this link.

Another major influence I haven't seen anyone mention is the Highwoods String Band. One of the founders, Mac Benford, now leads the Woodshed Allstars. Got to see them a few years back and loved 'em. Here's a link for more info.

Also, check out the Volo Bogtrotters.

I've had the good fortune of living near Dan Gellert and getting the chance to learn a bit when he plays for our dances. Take a listen to the cuts avaiable through the website. He's got incredible rhythm. Dan's take on mandolin rhythm playing is to emphasize the downbeat (ex: ONE and two and THREE and four and ONE and two and THREE and four and).

RE: New Old-Time music. Uncle Earl - Let their music speak to you.

Modern Tunes I love to play: Waiting for Nancy and Sadie at the Back Door.

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks for that info about the Fuzzies, guys. I really enjoyed reading their account of the bands history - indeed I found it quite moving for some reason . Must be getting old.

I must listen to it again. We had a cassette of it we used to play in the car. Tremendous driving music!

Cheers,

[mingusb1]

Speaking of oldtime, or is it old-time...

Caught "The American Experience" program last night on PBS tv on The Carter Family. #It was a fun show with some great old photos (and footage) of The Carters, interviews with family members, and of course the obligatory comments from modern historians, etc. #As the show was going, one after the other I found myself saying "i do that song"..."i love that song"..."i used to play that song" etc. for almost the entire hour!

Interestingly, they had Gillian Welch (who I really like) talking about and demonstrating Maybelle's guitar playing style. #Saying how she combined chord and melody playing in what some refer to as the "Carter scratch". #But, she was playing the parts with a flatpick, and in the footage of Maybelle playing it was pretty clear that she had a thumbpick. #It seems she was getting a lot of that bass "chunk" (timing and tone) from that thumbpick that you wouldn't really get from a flatpick.

So, the show never called attention to something that might be a most important aspect in trying to describe someone's style. #Maybe since I've been tortured trying to learn to crosspick the mando lately that I am too sensitive about these things!

Anyway, check the show out if you get a chance! #I'm going to try to see it again.

Z

[Stillpicking]

Check out the late John Hartford's 'Hamilton Iron Works" CD.
Compton is playing the mando on most of the tracks I think, great "old-time'' fiddle tunes.

[Michael H Geimer]

I understand that thing about The Carter Scratch. I used to play with a thumbpick, and pretty much played Maybelle's way for a long long time.

I switched over to flatpicking once I took up the mandolin. But, I still play with the same Carter Scratch 'feel' ... somehwere in between a Boom-Chuck and a single-note melody.

Arrrgh! I wish I could see this thing! My local PBS station (KQED) chose not to broadcast the show last night.

Anyway, I agree that it would be nice (and accurate) if they had portrayed Maybelle using a thumbpick, but almost no one who emulates her style really uses a thumbpick. (I knew that even when I was using them myself)

[Steven]

So O.K. I'm new to this mandolin stuff compared to lots of people thou not completly ignorant of music as I played classical violin as a boy.Can someone tell me about the basic mechanics of Old Time verses Bluegrass in regard to the actual playing of the tunes?I have heard that in Old Time all the instruments play the tune at the same time together,as opposed to taking breaks as in Bluegrass,I think I would rather play Old Time if this is true as I dont personally care to stand arround and chop chords.Is Old Time music basically intrumental or are there vocals?Sorry if these are dumb questions and you guys have answered them before,I'm just trying to figuer things out.