Playing in a different key

[Lonesome Loser]

Does playing in a different key amount to using the same open string fingering but fingering what would have been an open string further up the neck, thus stretching your fingers to hell and back again?

If so, then I know what I'll be doing this new year weekend!

[Tobin]

It "can" mean that, but not necessarily. That's usually the logical place to start, if you want to play what you're familiar with. It just requires learning to use the 7th fret instead of open strings. And once that pattern is established, moving it up the neck to different positions.

But playing in different keys can also mean using entirely different fingerings. For example, transposing from D to A would be as simple as moving over one string, or moving up the neck 7 frets. Either way, the fingering is roughly the same. But going from D to C might involve a whole new starting point.

This is where FFCP really comes in handy (see jazzmando.com for more). When you learn to play scales in closed positions, using different fingers as your start points, it frees you up to play in different keys more easily. Or even to play the same key, but in a different place up the neck.

[DavidKOS]

But playing in different keys can also mean using entirely different fingerings. .

Exactly! Closed position fingerings with no open strings are moveable, but most common mandolin music uses some open strings.

see also this thread

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-is-it-Usually

[JeffD]

Here is something to try. Play by ear a tune you know well. Something simple. I recommend Joy to the World (its the season what the heck). But When the Saints Go Marching In will work, Twinkle Little Star will work anything you knew before you knew it.

OK so you work it out on the mandolin.

Then pick a different fret, one up 3 up two down where ever, and work it out again.

Then pick a different fret, next string first fret, fifth fret, where ever, and work it out again.

Just the exercise of working it out from where-ever you start, you will experience the intervals, as opposed to the notes, and some pretty big lights will come on. They did for me.

[roysboy]

Here is something to try. Play by ear a tune you know well. Something simple. I recommend Joy to the World (its the season what the heck). But When the Saints Go Marching In will work, Twinkle Little Star will work anything you knew before you knew it.

OK so you work it out on the mandolin.

Then pick a different fret, one up 3 up two down where ever, and work it out again.

Then pick a different fret, next string first fret, fifth fret, where ever, and work it out again.

Just the exercise of working it out from where-ever you start, you will experience the intervals, as opposed to the notes, and some pretty big lights will come on. They did for me.

This is a good practice exercise Jeff . Simple and effective in so many ways .

[DavidKOS]

This is a good practice exercise Jeff . Simple and effective in so many ways .

Supposedly that was something that Charlie Parker did during his period of woodshedding right before he became famous. He had been a not-so-good sax player until he figured out that he needed to be able to play in every key and would take a tune and play it - then play it a half-step up, and so on through all 12 keys.

It sure worked for him.

[pointpergame]

It may be obvious, but just to emphasize the point, many tunes have been originated in one of the fiddle keys and lean heavily on open strings and a specific key. I find some of them are no fun at all when played FFCP just because of where the drones and the double stops fall. At the same time, the FFCP skills are essential. A mandolinist is very limited without the happy pinky that comes with Four Finger fluency.

[Lonesome Loser]

This is a good practice exercise Jeff . Simple and effective in so many ways .

I too like but feel I'm not up to the task yet. Maybe this is better for a more accomplished musician than me. Thing is I don't want to develop bad habits out of ignorance. When I've a better grip on scales I'll give this a shot. The sort of melodies I play currently ... whaddya call it when notes in a melody are for the most part notes in a scale? Diatonic melody? Whatever, but that. Proper fingering ought to come to play, no pun intended. Maybe I'm flying too high on coffee but my thinking is I should know scale forms before riding bareback, if you get my meaning.

Then again I may be splitting hairs. Please feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

[roysboy]

I too like but feel I'm not up to the task yet. Maybe this is better for a more accomplished musician than me. Thing is I don't want to develop bad habits out of ignorance. When I've a better grip on scales I'll give this a shot. The sort of melodies I play currently ... whaddya call it when notes in a melody are for the most part notes in a scale? Diatonic melody? Whatever, but that. Proper fingering ought to come to play, no pun intended. Maybe I'm flying too high on coffee but my thinking is I should know scale forms before riding bareback, if you get my meaning.

Then again I may be splitting hairs. Please feel free to tell me I'm nuts.

Developing and using your ear is paramount to playing any instrument well , I believe. As a professional player for a lifetime , I've relied on my ear far more often than written melodic charts and its been hugely helpful in my ability to play something quickly .
( granted ..I'm not first violinist in the symphony...just a journeyman jack of all musical trades). Part of that development is experimenting and stumbling upon musical ideas through serendipity . Not only do you get a workout for your fingers AND your brain but you discover things differently than you would on a " by the book " basis . I'm certain Jimi Hendrix , Buddy Rich , Tommy Emmanuel and even Bill Monroe relied as much or far more , in some cases , on their 'ears' in developing their grasp and understanding and respective styles . I'm not sure " playing strat with your teeth " will show up as a chapter in ANY guitar instructional book .

[Lonesome Loser]

Sorry, please see post below. This was in error. Yep, toooo much caffeine.

[Lonesome Loser]

It may be obvious, but just to emphasize the point, many tunes have been originated in one of the fiddle keys and lean heavily on open strings and a specific key. I find some of them are no fun at all when played FFCP just because of where the drones and the double stops fall. At the same time, the FFCP skills are essential. A mandolinist is very limited without the happy pinky that comes with Four Finger fluency.

Yep, and thats where I am right now: ready to move the scales up the neck. Kinda the reason I ask this question. I'm thinking higher positions are less, I don't know, essential for the mandolin than the guitar, which I've played for decades. I guess my thinking is a bit guitar centric.

What I'll do is gradually move fingering up the neck, without sacrificing the open string goodness that we all love, for the reasons you've mentioned.

I'm also beginning to realize/feel at times I'm playing upside down given the way the mandolin is tuned compared to the guitar. The first four strings of a guitar are tuned as a mandolin/fiddle, only inverted. This has resulted in strange realizations as I play. Makes me wanna start inverting guitar scales & songs to see how that flows on the mandolin, prolly not a good idea!

[Lonesome Loser]

Developing and using your ear is paramount to playing any instrument well , I believe. As a professional player for a lifetime , I've relied on my ear far more often than written melodic charts and its been hugely helpful in my ability to play something quickly .
( granted ..I'm not first violinist in the symphony...just a journeyman jack of all musical trades). Part of that development is experimenting and stumbling upon musical ideas through serendipity . Not only do you get a workout for your fingers AND your brain but you discover things differently than you would on a " by the book " basis . I'm certain Jimi Hendrix , Buddy Rich , Tommy Emmanuel and even Bill Monroe relied as much or far more , in some cases , on their 'ears' in developing their grasp and understanding and respective styles . I'm not sure " playing strat with your teeth " will show up as a chapter in ANY guitar instructional book .

You believe this is the case for a beginner? I wrestle with this question all the time (guitar or mandolin). I've a mountain of instructional material I've bought over the years. I wonder if I should just set those books aside and learn a song (melody, rhythm and breaks) with my recorded stuff. I'm hardly a year in with the mandolin, now would be the time. I can't tell you how liberating that would be for me. Let the books come afterwards, as icing on the cake. Then again, Amazon would go bankrupt if I suddenly stopped ordering music books from them.

Interesting... hmmm ... I just might this time. Get off my armchair and finally become a musician. I'm serious!

[Lonesome Loser]

Developing and using your ear is paramount to playing any instrument well , I believe. As a professional player for a lifetime , I've relied on my ear far more often than written melodic charts and its been hugely helpful in my ability to play something quickly .
( granted ..I'm not first violinist in the symphony...just a journeyman jack of all musical trades). Part of that development is experimenting and stumbling upon musical ideas through serendipity . Not only do you get a workout for your fingers AND your brain but you discover things differently than you would on a " by the book " basis . I'm certain Jimi Hendrix , Buddy Rich , Tommy Emmanuel and even Bill Monroe relied as much or far more , in some cases , on their 'ears' in developing their grasp and understanding and respective styles . I'm not sure " playing strat with your teeth " will show up as a chapter in ANY guitar instructional book .

Sorry, another quick note. I think I feel a New Year's resolution (sorry, Resolution ) is in the works here.

Thanks all!

[Mandoplumb]

Yep, and thats where I am right now: ready to move the scales up the neck. Kinda the reason I ask this question. I'm thinking higher positions are less, I don't know, essential for the mandolin than the guitar, which I've played for decades. I guess my thinking is a bit guitar centric.

What I'll do is gradually move fingering up the neck, without sacrificing the open string goodness that we all love, for the reasons you've mentioned.
I'm also beginning to realize/feel at times I'm playing upside down given the way the mandolin is tuned compared to the guitar. The first four strings of a guitar are tuned as a mandolin/fiddle, only inverted. This has resulted in strange realizations as I play. Makes me wanna start inverting guitar scales & songs to see how that flows on the mandolin, prolly not a good idea!

No don't think of a mandolin as an upside down guitar, Unlike most on this form I started on mandolin then realized every one should play guitar a little, started thinking of it as an upside down mandolin ( which is correct the mandolin is correct LOL) it limits you. As for playing up the neck that is needed with any instrument as you become more advanced. I played guitar as a second instrument in a band I used to play with, I would joke that you can pkwy any song in the first five frets from the capo. Thats true but the playing is simplistic, same is true with mandolin. While I played everything on guitar in lower frets I don't limit myself like that on mandolin but vie played it longer and know the fingerboard better.

[roysboy]

You believe this is the case for a beginner? I wrestle with this question all the time (guitar or mandolin). I've a mountain of instructional material I've bought over the years. I wonder if I should just set those books aside and learn a song (melody, rhythm and breaks) with my recorded stuff. I'm hardly a year in with the mandolin, now would be the time. I can't tell you how liberating that would be for me. Let the books come afterwards, as icing on the cake. Then again, Amazon would go bankrupt if I suddenly stopped ordering music books from them.

Interesting... hmmm ... I just might this time. Get off my armchair and finally become a musician. I'm serious!

I believe developing an ear is ESPECIALLY important for a beginner . It can certainly be done in tandem with books and other 'more disciplined ' routes. But yes....learn something using your ear and keep THOSE synapses well-oiled . Unless YOU are going to play mandolin in the symphony you will call upon your ear far more often AND you will be developing a confidence about playing that perhaps you wouldn't develop to the same extent if you absolutely CAN'T function without charts etc. I see this scenario quite often with piano students attending formal lessons . They don't develop a sense of just having fun , interpreting something differently, playing off of other musicians whether it be drummers or bassists or alongside several other lead instruments ( bluegrass ) . Start with an easy tune ....a childhood nursery rhyme even ....and FIND the notes and the easiest fingering for YOU . Move on to the next and you will begin to see similarities in structure , melody , rhythm and technique from one to the next. Sit in on jams ...over in a corner if you have to ....and LISTEN to chord movement first . Try to follow along using only your ear . Watch how other players are executing their respective parts...particularly guitar and mandolin , in your case .You will learn SO MUCH watching and listening You get the idea . Get back to us . May the Force be with you .

[JeffD]

You can always take a break from the "book learning" and work on "ear training" for a while, and then go back to the books whenever you want. Keep it fun. Don't "should" all over yourself.

[Mark Wilson]

Keep it fun. Don't "should" all over yourself.

I can live with that

[Pete Martin]

Supposedly that was something that Charlie Parker did during his period of woodshedding right before he became famous. He had been a not-so-good sax player until he figured out that he needed to be able to play in every key and would take a tune and play it - then play it a half-step up, and so on through all 12 keys.

It sure worked for him.

That and about 16 hours a day practicing for a few years!

[foldedpath]

It may be obvious, but just to emphasize the point, many tunes have been originated in one of the fiddle keys and lean heavily on open strings and a specific key. I find some of them are no fun at all when played FFCP just because of where the drones and the double stops fall.

Another thing about "fiddle tunes" is that not all of them started out on the fiddle. There is an older tradition of pipe tunes in Irish/Scottish music that pre-dates many of the modern instruments used to play the music. Many tunes were also first composed on diatonic (pre-Bohm) flutes and whistles, that can easily play in certain keys but not others.

Not only are the common keys derived from original diatonic instruments, but also the range of pitch in the melody. Have you ever noticed how something like 90% of traditional fiddle tunes never touch the G string on a fiddle or mandolin? You mainly see that now with Contra Dance and other recent modern compositions. It's because traditional, diatonic instruments like the pipes, flutes, and whistles don't have a large range like a fiddle does. That's why so many of the tunes only sit on those upper three D,A,E strings.

These are tunes that you could shift into other keys on a fully chromatic instrument like mandolin, but tradition and common practice says you shouldn't, especially if you want to play the tunes with anyone else familiar with them.

At the same time, the FFCP skills are essential. A mandolinist is very limited without the happy pinky that comes with Four Finger fluency.

I wouldn't call it essential if you only want to play Irish traditional tunes.

You will almost never leave first position, and only then on the more avant-garde and recently composed tunes (also some of the Scottish stuff, but they're weird that way). You can't articulate notes in FFCP either, the way you can in first position. Try simulating a fiddle cut or a roll in FFCP, which is hard enough on mandolin or OM without reducing the available sustain by being up the neck. You'll also get more stretching exercise for your pinky in reaching the high B for many fiddle tunes on the E string, than you will in any FFCP position.

I'm not knocking FFCP by the way. It's great for some things, but it's not great for everything. If you enjoy playing "fiddle tunes," then you really don't need it. If you want to improvise a Bluegrass break or play Jazz, you'd better learn it.

[JeffD]

I too like but feel I'm not up to the task yet. Maybe this is better for a more accomplished musician than me..

Joy to the World is not much more than a scale, really. Something to try. Scales are great too, and important.

As you know, (but i can't resist saying) the way to become a more accomplished player is by working on stuff that more accomplished players do.

[Lonesome Loser]

Hi All,

Our discussion has gotten stale but I've been asked to keep you all updated on progress. What I've been doing is practicing songs from the books, that best gets the melody in head as I play it over and over again, certainly better than listening to recordings I have. Then when I sit down next I first start with the melody in my head translating that to the mandolin and finally going back to the books for reminders or whatever. A hybrid approach!

The first song I chose to develop this approach, kind of a method really, was Billy in the Lowground. And it worked/works really well.

Maybe this may help others.

Thanks so much for your input. It totally helped me determine my next steps. Cheers!