Pickup--not satisfied with tone--pickup placement issue?

[plawren53202]

I know, for many of you the first reaction is probably, "join the club"...

Here's the setup I have been running for a little while now, including some (loud) gigs: J Bovier A5 with K&K Twin Spot (external), into a Behringer ADI21 preamp. I have monkeyed around with running that combo through a compressor (Boss CS-2 pedal) and an EQ (Danelectro Fish n Chips EQ). At gigs I go directly to the board and monitor off one of the stage wedges; at home I run into a little Vox Pathfinder amp or sometimes into an Audio Technica studio speaker/monitor.

Here are my frustrations with this setup after quite some bit of experimentation:

(1)--It doesn't seem like it puts out very much volume. Now, if I'm running through the compressor and EQ, I can crank the level on both of those and get plenty of volume BUT that also adds in quite a bit of noise. Not ideal. I would think the Behringer by itself would put out enough volume. But, for example, if I am running into the Pathfinder practice amp, I have to fully crank the volume and turn up the gain on the amp quite a bit to get it to where the sound coming out of the amp is louder than the acoustic sound of the mando (granted, the Bovier is loud). Same (have to really crank it) when I am running into the Audio Technica monitor (have to turn volume all the way up).

(2)--Unlike mando tone, percussive sounds (body thumps, pick clicks, bumps to the K&K wires) come through PLENTY loud. To the point that they really compete with mando tone volume-wise.

(3)--Of the tone that does come out, it seems like I get two basic elements: low end thump (see (2) above, plus just very low end bass), and high tinny highs. All the midrange that I really want to hear seems to disappear. Again, I can correct this to an extent with some EQ pedal work (like complete midrange hump with all lows and highs dialed out), but again, it seems like I shouldn't have to do this.

So, is this just inherent in piezos? Is my pickup placement at fault? I have experimented some with placement but it doesn't seem to make any difference. Right now, I have the two pickups placed next to the bridge, just on the tailpiece side of the bridge, with one under the low G strings and one under the high E strings. But this is merely just because it was the last place I tried them, not because I found any better results by putting them there.

Maybe this is just all inherent in piezos, bc granted this is my first experiment with piezo pickups. But any thoughts would be appreciated!

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I have a very small amp-a Schertler David, that I have to really crank to get much volume. I also have a Fishman Loudbox 180 that is bigger and it gets loud so it may be the size of your amp that is a consideration. With a decent pre amp that has output gain, you should get good volume out of a PA. I'm not familiar with that Behringer but you may need a different pre. I think very, very aggressive eq like you are discussing is key to getting a good acoustic tone through most setups. I do think your placement may be off-check K&K, they give a little cheap placement bent metal screw that helps and it usually half an inch or so from the inner f hole edges.

[pops1]

Do you have the pickups under the bridge, shouldn't be. How are you sticking them on?? They work best with super glue, but i wouldn't want to do that to the outside. The tape is ok and should give you plenty of volume is the preamp you are using designed for a large input impedance i am not familiar with that preamp. My k&k into a red eye is almost too loud and sounds very good. I would try a different preamp. I have also used outside placement with double thickness of tape to warm the sound. Follow k&k's recommendation and put one on each end of the bridge *--------------* like that and it should sound fine.

[Mandobart]

I have got good tone out of the same and similar p'up thru that very same preamp. The only difference I detect is p'up placement and possibly attachment method. I mount the twin head piezo's internally, under the soundboard at the point where each bridge foot makes contact. I use a small amount of blue putty (similar to Blu-Tak) to hold them in place. I've found external mount with a carpenter jack to be noisier (picks up those thuds and thumps) than an internal mount.

The sound you describe makes me think you have a problem with your preamp, either dead battery or something. Have you tried both the balanced XLR output and the 1/4" out to the PA? Have you tried the Behringer on other instruments? Have you tried using different cables to make sure it's not just a bad cable? Does it sound any different running straight into the board with no preamp? Have you tried a simple passive DI? What I'm describing is a part of the logical troubleshooting method I learned in the USN. Break it down into the base components and check each component and check the results.

[colorado_al]

There are limitations to the piezo pickups, but yours sound pretty extreme. I'd try moving the pickup locations and see how they sound clean, not eq'd, to give you an idea what is going on. Best bet is to eliminate everything from your rig that you can, and add in 1 component each time and test, to see where your sound loss is coming from. Once you get it sorted, you still might have some issues withe the pickup sound, but hopefully not as many as you have now.
When I play through a PA, I like to use the pickup and a condenser mic to give a fuller sound than either one alone can give.
Best of luck! Let us know what you find out.

[Jim B]

I also use a Behringer ADI21 coming from a Kelley with Fishman electronics.
I don't have the problem of it being too quiet. Just the opposite.

As others have noted - check the battery in the DI. Also, check the cables you are using. I have found from experience that cheap cables cause more issues that can simply be solved by using better cables.

[colorado_al]

Another possible way to troubleshoot is to plug in another instrument to your rig and see if you experience similar issues.

[mandroid]

Since you still have the 2 pickups external .

move them around and see if there is a placement offering a Better Tone .

then maybe you can install them on the inside of the same spot. ?

[almeriastrings]

Generally, an external (temporary) mount will not "drive" the transducers as hard as a fixed internal mount. There will be some physical attenuation as a result of the fixing material. The tighter the bond to the top, the more energy is transmitted and the higher the output voltage. That said, the AD121 normally has no gain problems. I've used them on mountain dulcimers very effectively, which are much less "hard driving" than a mandolin. Do check the battery... they get through them. Also make certain you do not have the -20dB pad switch accidentally engaged. Into an amplifier, you should be using an unbalanced 1/4" TS jack cable from the 1/4" output on the pedal. Into a PA desk, a balanced XLR-XLR cable (this is at mic level).

They are a very low cost piezo DI, but normally they perform pretty well, even with quite low output transducers... so something is plainly not quite right here. Try the substitutions suggested by Mandobart. You need to zero in on what is wrong.

[lenf12]

I think you can lose the compressor and get most or all of your gain from the pre-amp. Remember what compressors do, they squeeze the entire signal into a very narrow (and possibly quite loud) dynamic range, accenting all of the noise and pick thumps, etc. Once you have your signal under control, you can EQ out the rest of the unwanted sonic crud. Less is sometimes better.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL