5 string solid body tuning options

[fox]

I want to convert a 25" scale electric into a 5ths tuned 5 string, can any one help me with tuning options and string choice?
Thanks Fox.

[Explorer]

My recommendation would be to look at a set of guitar strings you already love, and take a cue from the tensions as your target when in full fifths.

Her's the D'Addario string tension chart, so you can find a string at your target pitch and tension.

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

I'd do it with progressive tension, going just a pound to two pounds heavier on each adjacent course as you go down.

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CGDAE (low to high) is extremely doable at 25.5".

I posted a few yea ago about using a high string from Octave 4 Plus to have a high B4 course with a 25.5" scale length. It took some work to be sure the string path was free of any edge or sharp bend which would cause the string to break, and that work has paid handsomely over the years. Cafe member Groveland also had success with the strings, but I've also known people who didn't manage to make the strings work for them, so if you're interested in pursuing that option, I'll give you all the advice I can so you can have a success story.

My two 6-course mandophones in (low to high) CGADEB are great because the chord voicings are so mandocentric. Also, capoing at the fifth fret (FCGADE) gives me mandolin/mandola chords and pitches.

Anyway, whatever you decide to do, good luck!

[fox]

Thank you, if CGDAE is possible then that is direction I would like to go.
I don't own a solid body 4 string but when I did, I seem to remember it was set up with .10p .14p .24w .38w GDAE. So I just need to add a thick C string then?
Or do I need to adjust all the string tensions? & can you suggest a C string....

[thistle3585]

I would look at the string gauges on a set for mandocello. .074, .048, .034 and .022. That will get you CGDA. I'm guessing an E is going to be around a .014-.016. You want the string tension for the A to be similar to the E, so you will need to use a string tension calculator to get you there.

[Explorer]

Fox, do you play guitar as well? If so, what strings and gauges do you use?

If not guitar, do you play any CBOM instruments? If so, what scale length, and what string gauges do you use?

[fox]

Yeah, I play 6 string acoustic and electric. I mainly play acoustic tenor guitar, I have loads of them from 20" to 25.5" scale I also have a few 8 strings & tenor banjos too!
What I don't have is a 5 string, I tend to prefer 10 or 11s on my six strings ( lights )
I did quite a bit of searching on this forum and on google but I could not find much about 5ths 5 strings apart from folk saying it was not possible to tune CGDAE on a 23" scale!
I am very keen on DIY conversions so I thought I would narrow down the neck on a electric with a standard scale length and put together a 5 string but first I thought I had better find out more about the turnings available .... I don't like the sound of a .74 though!

[Explorer]

Manufacturers vary in what they define as "10s or 11s," so Rather than me assuming, please give me all the actual string gauges of your preferred electric guitar string set. Thanks!

[fox]

OK sorry missed that bit... .10 .13 .17 .26 .36 .46

[Explorer]

This will match the tensions you already like, for tuning CGDAE

.010 .015 .026 .042 .064

I was shocked the first time i actually did my own conversion, because I didn't expect the lowest string to need to be that gauge, but I detuned the existing low E string by two whole steps down to C, and it was so flubby that it was obvious the new string gauge was going to be correct.

[fox]

Ok that might be a bit of fun, I will get on with it... thanks.

[Jon Hall]

I use the D'addarrio ECG23 and throw away the .20w.

[fox]

Hi Jon, so you are using a .48 for the C. ? Won't that be very low tension?

[Explorer]

Wow! That is quite a range of tensions (16, 14, 21, 17, 12 high to low), and your thickest, stiffest string is under the least tension out of all of them.

The gauges I recommended progress smoothly from around 16 to 21, and the 21 is on the lowest string. There isn't that huge tension spike in the middle of the set, either.

Depending on the bridge and the string path, i'm curious as to whether the lowest string already angles up slightly as it leaves the bridge due to lack of sufficient tension to pull it straight against its stiffness, and if fretting it causes it to go out of tune unless fretting really gingerly. How well does that work?

[DavidKOS]

Just a note - if you ignore the hard-for-me-to-deal-with high G, Robert Fripp's Crafty guitars were tuned CGDAE G.

Also called "New Standard Tuning" or "Guitar Craft Standard Tuning or C Pentatonic tuning"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_standard_tuning

http://thelcg.net/

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._arpeggios.pdf


Gauges for electric guitars
G 1 E 2 A 3 D 4 G 5 C 6 Reference
0.010 0.012 0.016 0.024 0.038 0.052 Robert Fripp[27][28]
0.008 0.012 0.015 0.026 0.042 0.052 Curt Golden[24]
0.0085 0.010 0.015 0.024 0.038 0.056 Fabio Mittino[29]

So ignoring the high G, there are some 5 string electric string gauges for all-fifths.

[mandroid]

could start out from a low F, only 1/2 step up from normal guitar pitch.

FCGDA

Lowell Levenger has a Tenor guitar in that pitch set ..

[Explorer]

Plain strings break around G#4 at a 25.5" scale length, regardless of their thickness.

Thin strins are weak and can't take the tension. Thicker strings are stronger, but require enoguh additional tension to get to pitch that they also break on that trip upwards.

You'll never get your high string up to A4 unless you're using an Octave 4 Plus string designed for that pitch. Even then, I've known people who didn't invest the time and energy in setting up their instrument and eliminating all potential breakage points, and who needlessly broke the O4+ strings due to impatience and unwillingness to do what they had to to achieve success.

[DavidKOS]

Plain strings break around G#4 at a 25.5" scale length, regardless of their thickness.
....
You'll never get your high string up to A4 unless you're using an Octave 4 Plus string designed for that pitch. Even then, I've known people who didn't invest the time and energy in setting up their instrument and eliminating all potential breakage points, and who needlessly broke the O4+ strings due to impatience and unwillingness to do what they had to to achieve success.

The new Guitar Craft tuning version 2 uses a high A instead of a G.....like a .008 or .007. I bet they break pretty often!

They wanted to go to B but there isn't a steel string that can tune that high on a normal guitar scale length.

[Explorer]

A few years ago, I went to a guitar craft circle, and tuned my high string down from B4 to the G4. Some were intrigued that I was using full fifths, and others argued that i was making a mistake by using a completely regular tuning.

It was interesting to hear assertions of why the high G4 of Crippled Fifths Tuning was superior to the B4 of actual Full Fifths Tuning, and it all seemed like sour grapes and/or making a virtue of necessity. I asked them to demonstrate how it was better, as i never saw anyone leveraging that high G4 in a way which you couldn't the B4, but there wasn't anything which could be done with one but not the other.

It was also interesting to note that the experienced guitar craft people, during the free improv period, subtly shook their heads at any non-Frippian experiments, and openly smiled and encouraged Frippian-sounding playing. It was a study in subconscious control, and i noted it during the open question period. I pointed out those who had shaken their heads, and discovered that they

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I've noted before, in topics about my experimenting with CGDAEB Full Fifths Tuning, that the DC area was a hotbed of tuning experimentation and, due to the huge numbers of mando family instruments, there was also a lot of experimentation with full fifths on guitar.

Bob Fripp would arrange orders for the Ovation guitars for his guitar craft students through Bo's Strings in Frederick MD, which catered to those musicians playing and experimenting with full fifths instruments, so Bob wasn't ignorant of all this at the point where he either had a vision in his hot tub time machine as he claimed, or decided to make a virtue of necessity by tuning his top string below the breaking point already discovered by others.

Anyway, for those interested, here's a topic I started when I first started down this road.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-my-experiment

I've since done Full Fifths Tuning on 8-string electric (BbFCGDAEB at 25.5", and AbEbBbFCGDA at 28.625"), and still use it for melodic work, but have gone to EADGCFAD on 8-string for most 8-string work, as it enables the full use of standard guitar tuning chords combined with standard bass on the bottom.

Anyway, all that is likely beyond the scope of the OP's questions, other than establishing that I've spent a little time working on the subject, so sorry about the topic derail.

Back to topic!

[DavidKOS]

It was interesting to hear assertions of why the high G4 of Crippled Fifths Tuning was superior to the B4 of actual Full Fifths Tuning, and it all seemed like sour grapes and/or making a virtue of necessity. I asked them to demonstrate how it was better, as i never saw anyone leveraging that high G4 in a way which you couldn't the B4, but there wasn't anything which could be done with one but not the other.

It was also interesting to note that the experienced guitar craft people, during the free improv period, subtly shook their heads at any non-Frippian experiments, and openly smiled and encouraged Frippian-sounding playing. It was a study in subconscious control, and i noted it during the open question period. I pointed out those who had shaken their heads, and discovered that they

----

Anyway, all that is likely beyond the scope of the OP's questions, other than establishing that I've spent a little time working on the subject, so sorry about the topic derail.

Back to topic!

Thanks for the info. Sorry to hear that there was a musical "study in subconscious control".

I'm not sure I'm ready for 6 strings in all 5ths. I'm happy with CGDAE.

[Jon Hall]

Hi Jon, so you are using a .48 for the C. ? Won't that be very low tension?

fox: The .048 is a little low tension but the rest of the strings seem perfect for me. I wasn't interested in buying individual strings. Ted Eschliman recommended this set.

[s11141827]

Octave4Plus makes a .006 Gauge High B String & you have to replace the original pickups w/ EMG pickups which have an extra winding in the coil to compensate for their reduced volume.