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Thread: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

  1. #51
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Pondering Dan Voight's Instagram post "#1. The mandolin that started it all" makes one wonder if any of the Luthiers involved in the project with Lloyd had children or grandchildren that might remember details of the collaboration. Roger Siminoff has done a spectacular job of salvaging Lloyd and Bertha's world and sharing it with the rest of us but unfortunately details of the creation of the first F-5 is still obscure. Julius Bellson who wrote a book on Gibson in the 1970's or his descendants might be able to elaborate more on the project. Lewis A. Williams's(Lloyd's friend and original investor in Gibson) family may have stories to tell. Borrowing a few paragraphs from Roger's site the work of Albert Shutt most likely inspired many of the new F-5 design leading particulars.

    "Loar was highly motivated by the work of the great violin makers and sought to include their features in the development of his fretted instruments. And, it was these features that made Loar’s fretted instruments outstanding. These included: fully graduated soundboards and backboards, a minimum-thickness area (today referred to as a “recurve”) around the entire soundboard, longitudinal tone bars, tap tuned body, f-holes, longer necks (i.e., access to a greater playable range of the fretboard) that connected to the body at the 15th fret, elevated fretboards (above the soundboard), ebony fretboard extender, increased neck pitch from 4° (of the F4) to 6° to achieve a 16° string break angle (over bridge), resonance tuning (sizing) of air chambers, and a classic “Cremona” finish. While all of these attributes are important, I believe his major contribution was the introduction of tap tuning. This process ensured the correct stiffness of the soundboards, backboards, and tone bars by tuning them to specific notes. Realizing that stiffness and pitch were inextricably related, tap tuning ensured reliable and repeatable construction from instrument to instrument. Further, the size of the f-holes was adjusted to tune the air chamber to a specific note. Here, Loar drew from both the great acoustical engineers of the day as well as from the much heralded violin makers. In his Physics of Music class at Northwestern University (1930-1943) Loar spoke of Stradivari’s tuning process: His greatest improvement, and one which took much research to discover, was attuning the tops and back. He would set the pitch so that the front was a quarter of a tone higher [than the backboard]. This tuning feature, as adapted by Gibson under Loar’s guidance, is what sets these instruments apart today. It is also what made them difficult to produce in a manufacturing environment and ultimately lead to the demise of the tap tuning process at Gibson after Loar’s departure from the company at the end of 1924."

    "It is important to note that Loar was not the first to suggest the use of f-holes, elevated fretboard extensions, and arched soundboards and backboards on mandolins. Another instrument designer named Albert Shutt of Topeka, Kansas filed for a patent that claimed these features on December 6, 1909 and was granted U.S. Design Patent 40,564 on March 8, 1910 – a patent that had a life span of seven years. In essence, these features were on the market and accessible to the public long before the development of Gibson’s F5 mandolin, and it meant that Gibson could begin using these features on mandolins, mandolas, and guitars as early as 1917 when Shutt’s seven-year patent expired. While we know nothing of the relationship between Gibson, Loar, and Shutt – if any – it begs the question of just how many of these ideas came directly from Loar and how many were borrowed from Shutt. Regardless, Gibson was a well-established instrument company and had the manufacturing and marketing muscle to include these features in their instruments to expand its mandolin and guitar business."

    http://siminoff.net/loar-background/
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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hank,

    I have had the same thoughts in the past. Here's part of a post I wrote on another forum with regards to the above picture.

    "This picture was featured in Bellson's book The Gibson Story and was captioned as "Corner of the Experimental Laboratory". If a company has an experimental laboratory then research and documentation along with it must be taking place. Was all this lost? Did some leave with Loar when he left the company? Do members of his family (or other's who left Gibson at the time) have any of his notes and does anyone have contact with them? I know it's a lot of probably unanswerable questions but finding some info could lead to how the development of the 5 series evolved. "

    Phil

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  5. #53
    Registered User Tom Sanderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Waltham View Post
    Steve is the only man on the planet that can do it right!
    I totally disagree. Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget) could handle it.

  6. #54

    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Many, many people are qualified to do a proper repair. In this case, it is more of a "pedigree" type of thing for purpose of resale. Best would be if it didn't need repair, of course. Second best, would to have been repaired by someone world famous in the field, such as Gilchrist, and can be advertised as such. In a weird way, it becomes a selling point.

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  8. #55

    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    Many, many people are qualified to do a proper repair. In this case, it is more of a "pedigree" type of thing for purpose of resale. Best would be if it didn't need repair, of course. Second best, would to have been repaired by someone world famous in the field, such as Gilchrist, and can be advertised as such. In a weird way, it becomes a selling point.
    Somebody gets it.

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  10. #56
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    It's still at CVG. They posted a photo on their Facebook page of Steve G. and Chris Thile studying it.

  11. #57
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    From Andrew above - "..... Steve G. and Chris Thile studying it." That makes one wonder !,
    Ivan
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  12. #58
    Registered User kudzugypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    i wonder if he can somehow save the 'good half' of the top - that would be the true test of a luthiers skill. to be able to bookmatch up a new half - org finish and all. my uneducated guess is this will end up being a 3 piece top.

  13. #59
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Well he can't bookmatch it. That can only be done with the original wood when it is resawn and opened like a book. Hence the "bookmatch" designation.
    Bill Snyder

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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson View Post
    It's still at CVG. They posted a photo on their Facebook page of Steve G. and Chris Thile studying it.
    Anyone have a link to that?
    Bernie
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  15. #61
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar


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  17. #62
    Registered User FPhil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    For the non-Facebookers:

    Attachment 139268

    Carter Vintage Guitars
    28 september ·

    Mandolin Summit last night---- Stephen Gilchrist and Chris Thile looking at the very first signed Loar F-5. — by Carter Vintage Guitars.

  18. #63

    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    attachment 139268 does not work
    John D

  19. #64
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    There is a youtube video of the Dawg playing this loar.
    https://youtu.be/jYVpR6ApHd8

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  22. #66
    Registered User vates's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Cute

  23. #67

    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    That mandolin sounds great in Dawg's hands. Thanks for posting the vid.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  24. #68
    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    I remember each time I got to play this one (back in the 80's) I would think, damn what a fine sounding Loar and think what a shame the top is this damaged. What I remember back then is this one never really had a proper set-up by anyone who could set up today (like Gil, Dude, etc). Tony Williamson lived near this one so he likely knows more about it than anyone. It's really magical and oh so unique in the world of Loars.

  25. #69
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Another pic and Paul Duff's assessment: http://www.duffmandolins.com/whats_on_bench.htm

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  27. #70
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Eagle View Post
    Another pic and Paul Duff's assessment: http://www.duffmandolins.com/whats_on_bench.htm
    i can't say i agree with Paul's comment about the back plate "button" being that of an F4. to me it more resembles the buttons circa the July 9th batch. F4 buttons from that era and before were quite pointed. anyone else have thoughts on this... Tom, Ken?

  28. #71
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Glassweb View Post
    i can't say i agree with Paul's comment about the back plate "button" being that of an F4. to me it more resembles the buttons circa the July 9th batch. F4 buttons from that era and before were quite pointed. anyone else have thoughts on this... Tom, Ken?
    I guess you're right. However, that button is at least unique. It does seem a bit pointed, and there is that ridge you won't find on other F5s - I believe.

  29. #72

    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Yeah, Glassweb, I can see it both ways. It is kinda pointy, and with a pronounced ridge, like Henry says.
    My own July 9 had a small button, quite flat as I recall. To some degree, all the back buttons were slightly different on my Loars, but, as you say, none were like a Loar period F4. After the Loar period, the buttons become much more like an F5.. that is the F4 buttons. I have two here now that show this.

  30. #73
    Registered User kymandolin29's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    wonder why there aint no F-5 fernal?

  31. #74
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Yeah - this attachment doesn't bloody work. Lay another one on us.

  32. #75
    Registered User mandotool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gilchrist Restoring the First Loar

    Here's a couple photos of #1 Loar's arrival at Carter's..Click image for larger version. 

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    and 1 photo from Monroecamp/2015
    Thomas Quinn

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