Bass guitar in Celtic music

[Dagger Gordon]

I dunno. It seems to me that Scottish music has featured drums for as long as I remember.
Damn good drumming as well.
This is the only video I could find of the great drummer Billy Thom, and I must say it is a rather charming wee film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXCBJm6NUOM

And when you look at the pipe band scene and the quality of their drumming, it seems to me undeniable that drumming (using sticks) has been a pretty fundamental part of Scottish traditional music for ages.

Just because folk bands in the 70s and 80s didn't use them much really doesn't change that.

[foldedpath]

I dunno. It seems to me that Scottish music has featured drums for as long as I remember.
Damn good drumming as well.
This is the only video I could find of the great drummer Billy Thom, and I must say it is a rather charming wee film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXCBJm6NUOM

And when you look at the pipe band scene and the quality of their drumming, it seems to me undeniable that drumming (using sticks) has been a pretty fundamental part of Scottish traditional music for ages.

Just because folk bands in the 70s and 80s didn't use them much really doesn't change that.

I don't think anyone is arguing that drumming is not a part of the Scottish traditional music scene. That would be silly. I might argue against the "fundamental" part though, because that suggests it's all-pervasive.

When friends gather to play a night of trad music in someone's kitchen, or a pub session, it isn't always guaranteed that a drummer will be there, or be considered essential to the music the way it is in a pipe band. The traditions of kitchen/pub sessions and marching bands are orthogonal to each other.

For example, the workshop my S.O. is at this week handles the groups separately, with fiddles and smallpipes/border pipes one week (no drummers), and GHB and marching drums the next week (tons 'o drummers). The informal nightly sessions just wouldn't mix between those groups, so they don't even try.

[kmmando]

Top Scottish dance band drummer Gus Millar ....

[James Rankine]

Some lovely scenes there Kevin in Linlithgow. I know it doesn't rain as much on the east coast as people think when they talk about the Scottish weather but it must still have been a worry having an outdoor Ceilidh (or was there an indoor backup option?).

I wonder if part of the popularity of the drum in Scottish ceilidh bands (apart from the pipe and drum tradition) is down to the quintessential ceilidh band instrument the piano accordion. It is quite difficult on this instrument to get a real rhythmic pulse from the melody line (I play it myself - though not particularly well). It's not impossible to do and there are some great players who can do this but you need to work hard with the right hand whereas the push pull of a button box gives the rhythmic pulse almost as a given. Also the use of the bass keys on the piano accordion can detract from the melody as the driving rhythmic pulse. Most Irish button box players use the bass keys sparingly, if at all, and there was a cottage industry in modifying them to strip them of their thirds giving the unobtrusive modal drones favoured in Irish music. The manufacturers have cottoned on to this and you can now buy them without the thirds. Our ceilidh band has both piano accordion and button box players and the instruments, like all instruments, have there strengths and weaknesses.
I suppose what I'm coming to is that it is all down to different styles, musical traditions and the combination of instruments most commonly used for a particular style and the notion that there is some uniformity to "celtic music" (whatever that is) is ridiculous. Of course we will all have our own particular likes and dislikes and there is no right or wrong. For me there is no greater thing than a Scottish waltz played on the piano accordion - it can bring me to tears for the old homeland (though not when I'm playing it!).

[JeffD]

So the previous decade's "radical" becomes the new "traditional" if enough people like what they heard.

I have the text of a letter from Appalachia circa a whole lot of years ago, bemoaning "those guitars with their frets" which were coming into the mountains polluting the purity of fiddle and fretless banjo. "telling us what notes we can play and what notes we can't."

[Dagger Gordon]

Hey Kevin,
I don't know your fiddler Alison Smith. Where does she come from?

I namechecked Gus Millar in post #15. I figured you would be mentioning him sooner or later!

Happy new year, by the way!

[Colin Lindsay]

- - - - - -
At one time Sean O'Riada's Ceoltóirí Chualann, and The Chieftains (who had been involved in O'Riada's group) were "radical". Using concepts of arrangement and presentation from classical chamber ensembles, the idea was to present an ethnically Irish equivalent.

I played Sean O’Riada’s bodhran back in the 1980s, so there’s a crisis: the great man himself wanting to go into a session, but having to stay outside crying as he’s got a bodhran….

[Beanzy]

One thing that gets on my nerves is drummers using the cymbals all the time. It annoys me in jazz too. All that busy noodling along really grates after a while. I love when players know how to save up the sparkles for effect rather than turning the whole thing into some sequined cabaret act.

As for bass I'm a big Eoghan O'Neill fan. Rather than just using it as a rhythm instrument he uses it to create the topography on which the whole landscape rests.I love his use of fretless bass. I reckon bowed bass could be really tastefully incorporated too to make a canvass on which the other instruments draw. Like a good canvas it should remain unseen but will affect the overall quality and feel depending on how well it is made. As ever that gives a different construct from the other styles of music in the genres covered by the term celtic. Maybe we should call it La Tene music ? - sorry bad pun.

[Dagger Gordon]

http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=EPiEUaxHvFw

Came across a clip of Deiseal using bass guitar. I only remember them using double bass so this is quite interesting.
Unusual line-up of whistle, bouzouki and bass.
They later expanded to include sax and drums, but I didn't feel that line-up worked.
The original trio were great though. Did you ever hear their version of Sheebeg sheemore? Really nice.

[M.Marmot]

The danger here, as always, is in proscribing a very narrow and linear path of musical 'tradition' ... if we decide to exclude drums and brass, not because they were not historically proven to be used by musicians and enjoyed by audiences and dancers, but because it does not serve our thesis, then we can only be driven to a foregone conclusion.

Likewise, to ignore the synth heavy music produced in the eighties and nineties, not because it did not stem directly from the tradition, but because it's not to our tastes, can only cause any exchange to shut down. (Also, on that note, may I include for discussion the use of 'clavinet', an electric piano by Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill in both The Bothy Band and Skara Brae?)

If we are discussing the historical use and development of music coming from a country or region then a retreat to 'taste' as a deciding factor cannot produce a growing discussion. Certainly, we can state that certain musics are not to our taste but it's a stretch to then take this prejudice and use it to expel those elements from the discussion.

Irish music did not develop in a hermetically sealed purity it has always been a music which grew through outside influence, through a dialogue with continental, british, later american or diasporic music. It was a maritime hub and, as such, could not take a linear and single path in it's musical development.

Similarly, if we take the onfolding processes of plantation and transplantation immmigration and emigrations of people to and from the island we would see that the idea of a homogenous pure and uniquely Irish expression is tenuous at best. Place upon that the martial history of the island which was both occupied, and through it's peoples participation in various empires, British, Spanish, French etc, and occupier we would see, yet again, yet another level of cross-fertilization.

On that note, we can also point to the history of a two-tiered society in Ireland that of the big house and the city, and that of the townland and the country (a third-level of intinerant communities can also be included). To see Irish music in reductive terms as that of the cottager-savante and the 'kittil' on the hob is to only see half the story.

To ignore the traditions that carried through in the Big House, we would have to ignore the side of the history of those who sought to be align themselves with the modern and progressive, the European, the British and America. It would be too ignore those who fostered the baroque, the chamber pieces, those who attended Handel's premiere of the 'Messiah' oratorio, those who brought back home the fashions for high-society dances such as polkas; it would ignore those for whose comfort the uilleann pipes were developed, those who, and at one stage fostered the harping traditions. It would be to ignore the polite society who danced the quadrille to piano and who ould debate the relative quality of opera tenors over dinner, as depicted in Joyce's 'The Dead'. This was a high society who strove to be modern, sophisticated and cosmopolitan, and whose tastes fed back into society at every level.

To ignore the traditions of the city, the ports, and the garrison towns, would also be to distort the island's musical inheritence. It would ignore the martial inheritence of marching bands (McNamara's Band) which proliferated throughout and who were intensely popular. These bands who trained musicians and brought new materials and trends to light. I would contend that these types of bands stem from the same strain as the famed ceillidh bands who were pictured earlier in this thread. It would also ignore the influence of the rise of ballad singers and pub sessions, which - to my knowledge - were an import of the folk movement and not at all an indigneous tradition, a fact reinforced by the Republic's punitive dance hall acts.

The irony of this, is that the romantic notions of 'traditions', traditional purity, and even the construct of a pan-Celtic nation, are, of course, themselves imports from the European enlightenment with it's focus on the untutored as being natural and the educated as being corrupted. In this light the only true Irish music would be parochial, insular and naive, anything spoiling this image should be removed from contemplation and is to fall into a sentimantalisation that Brian O'Nolan mocked in his novel 'An Bael Bocht'

'In Corkadoragha, where every human being was sunk in poverty, we always regarded him as a recipient of alms and compassion. The gentlemen from Dublin who came in motors to inspect the paupers praised him for his Gaelic poverty and stated that they never saw anyone who appeared so truly Gaelic. One of the gentlemen broke a little bottle of water which Sitric had, because, said he, it spoiled the effect.'

It is this line of sentimentality, not synths, that lead us to the mawkish Celtic woman and Orinoco flow, just as it leads us to the stereotype 'Seven Drunken Nights' and 'The Titanic' steerage scene.

Two strands, progressive and conservative - it's always been this way and it's this tension that drives the music forth.

[M.Marmot]

And in answer to the original question: Bass guitar in celtic music - i have nothing against it. It will always be a question of who is playing the bass and how well they can interpret the music.

Saying that, i take very little pleasure in drums in Celtic music as i feel it pronounces the beat to the detriment of space.

Strangely, this is soomething that i percieve to be more present in scottish music - perhaps this is because Scottish music is more strongly connected to the dancehall and Irish music to the parlor? I don't know.

[ald]

Does anyone know of any bass guitar/mandolin duos playing Celtic music?

[des]

No bass guitar but plenty of drumming - funny when I think about "Celtic" music - as distinct from Irish and / or Scottish "traditional" music ( and indeed popular, dance, folk ... there's a very wide spectrum there) - I tend to think of the marching bands of Brittany, Galicia, Scotland and Ireland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja0uUuroAyo

[des]

Trying to embed Youtube footage of the Dingle Fife and Drum band

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLuG1tVfUH0

[Bertram Henze]

to ignore the synth heavy music produced in the eighties and nineties, not because it did not stem directly from the tradition, but because it's not to our tastes, can only cause any exchange to shut down. (Also, on that note, may I include for discussion the use of 'clavinet', an electric piano by Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill in both The Bothy Band and Skara Brae?)

Triona's playing is what I was thinking of myself, and it never did any harm to the music of Bothy Band. I have my own live experience with such a space age instrument: in the mid-80s, when I was playing banjo in a session inside McDermott's, Doolin , Co. Clare, a young man with a suitcase entered, unpacked a synth keyboard, put it on a foldable stand and started chord-accompanying the tunes we played with an impressive feeling for the harmonies neccessary and harmonies far beyond. It was ethereal and fascinating, and it improved the music - everybody accepted him immediately. Again, it's the player.

The irony of this, is that the romantic notions of 'traditions', traditional purity, and even the construct of a pan-Celtic nation, are, of course, themselves imports from the European enlightenment with it's focus on the untutored as being natural and the educated as being corrupted. In this light the only true Irish music would be parochial, insular and naive, anything spoiling this image should be removed from contemplation and is to fall into a sentimantalisation that Brian O'Nolan mocked in his novel 'An Bael Bocht'

Interestingly, romantic notions seem to be a highly individual and personal thing, everybody having his own authenticity dream. Even Irish musicians themselves are taking part in this. Take 5 minutes to read this funny episode about the flute player Seamus Tansey, noted for his difficult character (I am profoundly grateful for the pleasure of not having played with him in a session).

As for bodhrans, drums and cymbals: there is this historic video of Joe Cooley's last session, featuring a "bodhran" which is really a tambourine. Teaching us that you do the truly authentic Irish thing simply by just grabbing any object that happens to lie near you and play it.

[M.Marmot]

Interestingly, romantic notions seem to be a highly individual and personal thing, everybody having his own authenticity dream. Even Irish musicians themselves are taking part in this. Take 5 minutes to read this funny episode about the flute player Seamus Tansey, noted for his difficult character (I am profoundly grateful for the pleasure of not having played with him in a session).

.

I just had an unexpected revelation from Mr. Tansey's letter.

I once knew someone from up Sligo/Roscommon way and when something was bad she'd describe it as 'cat-malojin'. Having always caught the gist of it's meaning i never really questioned the phrase, but thanks to that letter I now realise she was saying 'cat melodeon'.

Now, off i go to brew me some tay

[Colin Lindsay]

It is this line of sentimentality, not synths, that lead us to the mawkish Celtic woman and Orinoco flow, just as it leads us to the stereotype 'Seven Drunken Nights' and 'The Titanic' steerage scene.

That was Hollywood, that also gave us Braveheart.

[Bren]

That was Hollywood, that also gave us Braveheart.

To be fair, that steerage session in Titanic looked like fun.

[Bertram Henze]

To be fair, that steerage session in Titanic looked like fun.

Yes, but they played Dennis Murphy's Polka and they played it with that stop-time arrangement so often found in modern sessions

[M.Marmot]

To be fair, that steerage session in Titanic looked like fun.

And they even had a big flaking drum aswell as a bodhran

[Paul Kotapish]

The bass on the OP's linked track sounded good to me, too. I love bass on pretty much everything, and generally welcome drums/percussion if it seems to enhance what the melody/lead instruments are going for with their music.

That said, for my own listening preference for traditional Irish music, I tend to prefer a more stripped-down sound with minimal accompaniment most of the time, and if there is a bass in the mix, I'd rather hear a good acoustic stand-up bass.

For my money, the best bassist for pretty much anything/everything is Danny Thompson. He is a jazz player by instinct and inclination, but he has a tremendous feel for accompanying traditional songs and tunes. He was in Pentangle, toured/recorded with Richard Thompson (no relation), and has a discography of hundreds of recordings, including some wonderful sides with Shetland fiddler Aly Bain, Northumbrian piper/fiddler Kathryn Tickell, and a variety of Irish, Scottish, and American traditional musicians on the Transatlantic Sessions. Check him out.

http://www.therealdannythompson.co.uk/Discography.html

M.Marmot seems to summarize the old dichotomy pretty well in his post above. Nothing wrong with adding electric bass and drums and--my own favorite--Souzaphone to the mix, but I'm really glad that there are a few purists out there keeping the traditional flame trimmed and burning bright.

[Bren]

Yes, but they played Dennis Murphy's Polka and they played it with that stop-time arrangement so often found in modern sessions

You gets what you pays for.
They'd be playing seven-part pipe jigs up in comfort class.

[Beanzy]

Anyone read The Drone News? .... goes well with your mornin cuppa..... great stuff

[Bertram Henze]

Anyone read The Drone News? .... goes well with your mornin cuppa..... great stuff

There's some evil humor to be found

[M.Marmot]

I've just been scanning through the posts here again and, maybe to address the original question / non question just a notch more than i've done -

First, i'd have to agree with Roland Sturm that, if i'm not being misleading here, the recording as a whole, it's a bit middle of the road jazz. In fact, for myself, i can pinpoint to exactly which album this reminds me of 'Earl Klugh 'A Sudden Burst of Energy' ... or, more generally, ITV late night. It's pleasent enough, but it's got a big white line and cat's eyes ... right down the middle.

Second, I'd have to agree with Paul Kotapish, for me no one has done a better job of acompanying folk / trad on bass than Danny Thompson ... i don't know if there is a course which teaches 'Thompson's Specific' bass for these things, but, for me it'd be the brick and mortar of trad bass.

Third, i think that (the) trad music (audience) has managed to paint itself into a wee bit of a corner in that it's more romantic elements don't often mix with those wishing to expand on the music's imprint. Often, folks balk when the spit and shine of a studio becomes too obvious on a production but i am adamant that a type of chamber classical/jazz/folk, as is heard on the ECM label, might provide the way forward for a certain strain of trad.

As i type, i'm listening to 'Buille' by Nial Vallely, and, though bassless and drumless (though not percussion less), does boast some fine piano and 'jazz' moments it's pretty progressive and, in my opinion, manages to skip the cat's eyes while managing keep a solid trad pedigree.

As such it avoids the snick of Mc Mahon's razor; it's progressive, cosmopolitan but still carries a parochial air with it - it's a hard edge to straddle, one, in my opinion, the original recording falls foul of. I can hear the jazz clubs ... i can't hear the parish bells.