"Roasted Wood"

[JAK]

A new Red Diamond F5 listed in the classifieds just sold at Morgan Music, and is described as having "Roasted Wood." It was a $1000.00 upcharge from one of the other Red Diamond F5s they have without roasted wood. What the heck is "roasted wood" and why does it cost so much to roast it? And I'm interested in buying a wood-roaster if anyone knows where I can get one, or can I just use my own oven?

[Timbofood]

Ask Frank Wakefield about roasted wood.

[OldSausage]

That's nothing, you should see what they charge for charbroiled wood. It does go well with a bottle of Chateau Lafite, mind you.

[billhay4]

I believe it is a process, invented in Scandanavia, of heating wood in the absence of air at very high temperatures. The entire body of the wood turns a "roasted" color. What else it does is not clear to me, but some claim it makes tonewood sound better.
More info
Bill

[Timbofood]

David, isn't there a place that specializes in that in Atlanta? Out near the airport?

[Perry Babasin]

Seems to me like it could degrade the integrity of the wood fibers and make the final product brittle. Kiln drying makes some kind of sense but this seems like a little too much to me.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Whatever it is...it's SOLD.

[Timbofood]

Sounds like kiln drying on steroids and speed!
No real idea about how it might sound but, would be happy to test drive one for six months and then render an opinion. I might be persuaded to do that for just about any builder.
Not begging, just offering service.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm going with the Frank Wakefield method. Oven roasted just to dry it out.

[sgrexa]

Recording King makes an 0 guitar with torrefied Adirondack for $499 so that $1,000 dollar premium seems steep.

Sean

[Timbofood]

Whatever it is...it's SOLD.

Must have been a "hot" one
Time for me to hide under a rock but, I know David wanted to get that in first,hahahahahah

[jmagill]

I like a dark tone, and when I went by the Morgan Music booth at IBMA, I asked which of the Red Diamonds they were displaying had the darkest tone. They handed me the 'roasted' one under discussion here.

It was my favorite of the dozen or so mandolins I sampled that day, and I can still remember thinking, 'Boy, this thing sounds great' and how reluctantly I put it back on its stand.

I didn't ask about the roasting process and how it might affect the tone (I think it's a kind of artificial aging), but for the tone I like to hear, that mandolin sure had it going on...

[High Lonesome Valley]

Why not just sink the top wood in the sea and partially petrify it like Stradivarius?

Hey, any of you builders out there, this could be a new selling point.

[verbs4us]

I interviewed Don MacRostie (maker of Red Diamond) about this a while ago (his profile will be published this winter). He said this about roasted wood:

"Now I’m looking at a way of aging wood. Water is easy to get out of wood, but other things in wood take years to change. The nonsolid material becomes more solid. I heard about “roasting wood” at IBMA—basically raising wood to a temperature above kiln drying, which is around 200 deg. C. Something happens at that temperature to sugars and resins in the wood. If you put a light inside a modern guitar and shine it through the top, the top glows orange. But do the same with a 1930s Martin and light does not pass through. Something has happened over those years. This roasting does the same thing; light does not transmit through roasted spruce tops. Roasting stabilizes wood, making it less susceptible to seasonal gain and loss of moisture. I’m experimenting, building four instruments from the same log, all with the same voicing, but two with roasted wood and two not. We’ll see how this turns out. "

[Charlieshafer]

This was brought up before, and Dana Bourgeois was one of the leaders in using torrefied wood for guitar tops. I would venture the upcharge for a carved mandolin top is justified as that stuff is hard to carve. I was given some samples for cabinetry (that's how I make my living, so I get lots of odd stuff) and while the wood took a router beautifully, trying to mortise in hinges absolutely stank. I love the color, and this process sure seems like the closest way to get to the "100 year old wood" goal better than anything else.

[JAK]

Maybe the wood was roasted AFTER it became a mandolin? If not, was ALL the wood roasted, or just the top? Wondering....

[Bernie Daniel]

Maybe the wood was roasted AFTER it became a mandolin? If not, was ALL the wood roasted, or just the top? Wondering....

Roasting after construction would probably be a disaster for all the glued joints?

[Jeff Mando]

I like a dark tone, and when I went by the Morgan Music booth at IBMA, I asked which of the Red Diamonds they were displaying had the darkest tone. They handed me the 'roasted' one under discussion here.

It was my favorite of the dozen or so mandolins I sampled that day, and I can still remember thinking, 'Boy, this thing sounds great' and how reluctantly I put it back on its stand.

I didn't ask about the roasting process and how it might affect the tone (I think it's a kind of artificial aging), but for the tone I like to hear, that mandolin sure had it going on...

Maybe it was a dark roast----c'mon, any Starbucks, fans out there?

[Bernie Daniel]

This was brought up before, and Dana Bourgeois was one of the leaders in using torrefied wood for guitar tops. I would venture the upcharge for a carved mandolin top is justified as that stuff is hard to carve. I was given some samples for cabinetry (that's how I make my living, so I get lots of odd stuff) and while the wood took a router beautifully, trying to mortise in hinges absolutely stank. I love the color, and this process sure seems like the closest way to get to the "100 year old wood" goal better than anything else.

But is it really? As far as I know 100-year-old wood is not harder to carve than 10-year-old wood is it? So "roasting" does not sound like in mimics the natural aging process? Rather it sounds like a way to make wood hard thus imparting better tonal properties?

Guessing the wood was carved, then roasted, then glued up into a mandolin?

[JAK]

Wouldn't microwaved wood be faster?

[MikeEdgerton]

I do know that the 100 plus year old fir lumber in the attic of my house in Oregon was a hell of a lot harder than the stuff I was buying at the time at the local lumber yard. You could hardly drive a nail into it. I always assumed it was old growth verses new fast growth lumber but it might have been the aging process. One of my old carpenter friends always referred to that stuff as real wood. With that said, I wouldn't think you could roast an already carved top as it has to affect the size a little bit.

[KevinM]

If they start talking about coating it with cajun spices and smothering the braces with creme fraiche before roasting, i'm out.

http://www.silvatimber.co.uk/media/p...-explained.pdf

About roasted wood, sounds interesting.

[Bernie Daniel]

I do know that the 100 plus year old fir lumber in the attic of my house in Oregon was a hell of a lot harder than the stuff I was buying at the time at the local lumber yard. You could hardly drive a nail into it. I always assumed it was old growth verses new fast growth lumber but it might have been the aging process. One of my old carpenter friends always referred to that stuff as real wood. With that said, I wouldn't think you could roast an already carved top as it has to affect the size a little bit.

Well there are certainly many wood instruments over 100 years old (e.g., violins etc.) so there should be plenty of folks here who can weigh in on what it is like to work on even 300 year old tone wood.

I would be surprised if the wood continued to became harder with age because I don't know what the physical mechanism would be. But I have been surprised before.

Wood once it is dried remains in equilibrium with the humidity in the air around it . That is it does not continue to dry out over the decades --- unless it is in the desert I guess.

But you are probably right trying to use the carved piece after "roasting" might not work too well.

[Steve Sorensen]

After thinking about how instruments were totted about (pre-airconditioning) and had to survive on the road and in tremendously variable conditions as the seasons changed; and also about the hard, bright "ping" of Douglas Fir framing lumber that has been seasoning inside walls that I've demolished in the name of home improvement . . . I decided to try accelerating the process.

We have an old Wedgewood stove that is about 125 deg F all the time because of the pilot light below the oven.

This year, I've been experimenting with wood in the oven for several months and also with cycles of taking the temp up to around 200 deg F. and then letting drop back down.

This is not the "Torrification" autoclaving process, but more in line with the idea of accelerating the seasoning process that wood experiences in the real world.

I really like the results with Sitka Spruce. The tops are light, hard and feel/tap bright and dry like older wood. Not sure if I can see/feel a difference in the maple I've tested so far.

Of course, one can continue the process on a one-piece top or back . . . but that is another story.

Steve

[jwpope]

This guy has roasted curly maple. Sharpslumber.com