Why not oval holes for bluegrass?

[multidon]

This advice has been repeated too many times to count and has even been repeated by me numerous times. The collective wisdom is that you HAVE to have f holes for bluegrass. Why? Because you get that "punch" that enables you to be heard over the banjos. But a recent thread about a Breedlove oval hole has me rethinking this general wisdom.

I LOVE the sound of my Breedlove oval hole. I don't play bluegrass. But why shouldn't I if I had the urge? If it's a volume issue, I have heard quiet f holes and really loud oval holes. I understand the desire for punch on chop chords, but still...

Although I don't play the genre I have heard and seen more than a few bluegrass bands. I saw one once where the mandolin player was using a custom built oval hole. The bluegrass police did not show up to put him in jail.

I wonder why everyone seems to be so concerned with being able to be heard OVER everyone else. It seems to me that regardless of genre your job in a band is to BLEND, not stick out. Unless you have a solo. Then it's your band mates' job to back off so you can be heard. With everybody trying to be loud enough to be heard at the same time all that would accomplish is a too loud band.

Certainly the bluegrass police will show up on this thread to give me what for. But I really see no reason a quality oval hole should not be played in bluegrass. It's a silly "rule" in my view. So flame away and show me the errors in my thought process. On last thought though. It was pointed out in the other thread that Bill himself played an oval hole from time to time.

[f5joe]

Honestly, play what you like. If anyone disagrees with you, they are the "bluegrass police". Borderline troll post ....... no offense intended ...... just my take.

[MikeEdgerton]

Generally threads with the line "flame away" don't do real well here.

[LongBlackVeil]

the ONLY reason (other than personal preference) is for the chop chords. An oval hole can sound great when taking a break and will be heard. The chop chord rhythm playing is THE most important thing a mandolin does in a bluegrass setting though, so its important that it sounds good. Ive never met an oval hole that sounded good with a chop chord.

I dont see how this was a troll post at all

[KEB]

Step 1.
Find the instrument that makes the sound that you want to make.
Step 2.
Make the noise that you want to make.
Step 3. (optional)
Find folks who want to hear that sound that you want to make.

That's it. I just laid out all the secrets to music. Y'all can close up your browsers and go home.

[JEStanek]

In general, people expect an arch top, f holed mandolin with a preference for F-style for bluegrass. Most grassers do this. There are a few exceptions (Statman played remarkable grass on an old A2Z mandolin but now plays f-holes). It's not a law, and you can play what you want where you want. The F5 was designed to cut through and project well for mandolin orchestras. Turns out that projection from the holes, tone bars, and bridge placement on the body works well for bluegrass music.

If you have the right size band and players who can moderate their volume, just about any mandolin could work there.

Jamie

[Jim Gallaher]

I played mandolin in a five-piece (bass, banjo, fiddle, guitar, mando) bluegrass band for 10 years. I also ran the sound system. In the course of my sound system work, I prepared a chart that compared the frequency ranges of each instrument to give myself a better understanding of what was happening.

What I found was that instrument volume in an amplified setting wasn't as important as the "blend" of the various frequencies. The fiddle and mandolin occupied the high end of the spectrum, being especially well-heard above 440 Hz and competition-free at 660 Hz and above (unless you had a female singer). This corresponded to the fall-off point of the guitar and banjo (in the fat middle range with the voices), while the bass (as expected) had the bottom frequencies to himself.

I played a few oval hole mandolins from time to time and they had beautiful, rich low-end (for a mandolin), but didn't "cut through" with the stouter mid and high frequencies of the f-hole models. I suspect that their stronger low-end was competing with the guitar and banjo's frequencies. The guitar's 3rd and 2nd strings and the banjo's 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings occupy the same frequency range as the mandolin's 4th (G) and 3rd (D) strings -- it's "low end".

In an unamplified "jam" setting, this same competition for frequency range seemed more pronounced and the oval hole's rich low end suffered more. Then again, I'm no scientist and I could be completely wrong

If you're interested, I can send a copy of the frequency chart.

[sblock]

This advice has been repeated too many times to count and has even been repeated by me numerous times. The collective wisdom is that you HAVE to have f holes for bluegrass. Why? Because you get that "punch" that enables you to be heard over the banjos. But a recent thread about a Breedlove oval hole has me rethinking this general wisdom.

I LOVE the sound of my Breedlove oval hole. I don't play bluegrass. But why shouldn't I if I had the urge? If it's a volume issue, I have heard quiet f holes and really loud oval holes. I understand the desire for punch on chop chords, but still...

Although I don't play the genre I have heard and seen more than a few bluegrass bands. I saw one once where the mandolin player was using a custom built oval hole. The bluegrass police did not show up to put him in jail.

I wonder why everyone seems to be so concerned with being able to be heard OVER everyone else. It seems to me that regardless of genre your job in a band is to BLEND, not stick out. Unless you have a solo. Then it's your band mates' job to back off so you can be heard. With everybody trying to be loud enough to be heard at the same time all that would accomplish is a too loud band.

Certainly the bluegrass police will show up on this thread to give me what for. But I really see no reason a quality oval hole should not be played in bluegrass. It's a silly "rule" in my view. So flame away and show me the errors in my thought process. On last thought though. It was pointed out in the other thread that Bill himself played an oval hole from time to time.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight, and trying to make trouble. Your premise is a bit ridiculous, in fact. OF COURSE you can use an oval hole mandolin to play bluegrass. You can even use a bowlback if you want! You are entitled to play whatever you want. In fact, you can play bluegrass on a trombone or flute, if that's what floats your boat. But you need to recognize that this is unconventional. Not everyone will appreciatively nod, and some may not even want to participate. But plenty of talented mandolinists have used oval hole instruments, even for performing bluegrass, including Red Rector and Andy Statman. So please stop trying to make such a big deal about it.

And yes, there's a bit of a volume/projection difference. Overall, ff holes tend to project more towards an audience. But the natural variation in volume from mandolin to mandolin, and from player to player, is so great that this characteristic might not matter much.

So, play whatever instrument you like, enjoy your music, and stop trying to make trouble. You exaggerate the power of the bluegrass police. There are plenty of oval holes out there. And A models, as opposed to F models. And even ... gasp .. Breedloves, Rigels, Hulsts, and other unconventionally shaped instruments. You're better advised to improve your technique. If you're a great player, none of the bluegrass aficionados that I know would EVER consider rejecting you from a jam because of the shape of your instrument.

[multidon]

My original post was not meant to be a "troll". I know that is against policy here, and I value my membership here too much to risk losing it by violating guidelines. You can look at my record of years worth of over 1800 posts and lots of "thanks". My record speaks for itself and shows that I try to be a positive contributing Cafe member. To those who accuse me of trying to start a fight or trolling, indeed I do take offense even if it wasn't intended. I suppose I should have not said "flame away", poor choice of words, it's just that I know from experience what to expect from certain corners. Many of those folks are on my "ignore" list. Looks like I may need to add to it. I do feel I have raised legitimate points for discussion here. My premise not ridiculous, and everyone here knows it. How many times has a newbie been told to get one with f holes if they want to play bluegrass? Hundreds? Thousands? If something gets repeated enough it must be true, right?

When I was new to the Cafe I used to chime in on threads that upset me. Now I just ignore them. Life is too short. I look forward to positive contributions to my thread. Perhaps some more of you know of bluegrass groups that use an oval hole to good effect. I for one at least would love to hear about the exceptions to the "rule". I hope that we can continue to have a civilized discussion without negative comments specifically designed to get the thread shut down, just because somebody has the audacity to question the status quo. You know, I've made this point previously as well, can't we agree to disagree without being disagreeable?

I have just finished re reading the forum trolling/ flaming guidelines. The say "we expect spirited discussion". And the guidelines warn against being impolite. I don't see anything I said that would be considered impolite. And I assure you I did not say anything that I would not say to you in person.

[lowtone2]

There was a bluegrass band featured on David Holt's old television show on the Nashville network, that featured a mandolinist who played a L&H style A. Sounded great to me. I think it was Special Consensus, or something similar but I'm not sure.

Also, on many of Jimmy Martin's bluegrass tracks the mandolin when used was a Gibson A model, I think.

[Timbofood]

I seem to recall Jimmy Martin owning the F-4 for the mandolin player in his band because he didn't want him to sound like Bill. Or at least that story has been told more than a few times. There is significant evidence which I am sure will be shared chapter and verse (album and cut) to exhibit round hole mandolins being used by many soon enough. I see no provocation from you Don, more just an observation.

[tree]

the ONLY reason (other than personal preference) is for the chop chords. An oval hole can sound great when taking a break and will be heard. The chop chord rhythm playing is THE most important thing a mandolin does in a bluegrass setting though, so its important that it sounds good. Ive never met an oval hole that sounded good with a chop chord.

I dont see how this was a troll post at all

LongBlackVeil has the answer, IMO. I have an F hole and an oval hole mandolin. Both have plenty of volume and can be easily heard when playing with others. The oval hole sounds awful to my ears when I play chop cords. Makes me cringe, and there is no way to change my technique that I can figure to make it sound better (I've tried). It's just an ugly sound to my ears; too much of something, but I don't know what.

The type of music really doesn't matter (bluegrass isn't the only time you would ever chop chords). In chopping to provide rhythm, I think the higher end of the frequency spectrum is more important, and it's just not there with most oval hole mandolins. I'm positive there are oval hole mandolins that do sound good when chopped, but my inclination would be that those are the exceptions to the general rule.

[stevedenver]

guys
multidon has been around and from what I know, always a decent and polite contributor. I don't see why the nasty vitriolic reaction to a simple question.

IMHO its not how community members should act towards each other.

I'm seeing a growing trend of folks looking to 'prove their point of view', impatience and intolerance. Lets try not to act like a bunch of old geezers with mandolins.

Remember, when you sit with your mando, you hear something different than someone sitting across from you. (Not unlike my singing! LOL)

It seems to me, that since the OP indicates he doesn't play in a BG setting and loves the sound of his Breedlove, perhaps, just perhaps, the question is in earnest, and he might not know or understand why there is the popular use of an F.

soundman Jim explains it nicely.

You don't need a jazz guitar to play jazz, nor a flat top to play BG, or an oval to play celtic.

What I might suggest to the OP, is handing that ol roundhole over to someone and then listen to the mix, from the other side of the room.

You can't always hear things from the driver's seat.

I think however, the issue is, that mando in BG, is first and foremost a percussive element, ie the high hat or snare, and secondly , a lead instrument like a fiddle, which needs front and center presence.

OTOH, I really thought Battle of Evermore wouldn't sound quite the same with an F.

[TonyP]

I love Jim's response. As close to the facts as possible without some of the bias that can pop up. This is exactly what I've found too. Just where that particular mandolin lays in the overall sound has everything to do with what I'm concerned about. Not hard and fast rules that says you have to have this or that bases on make/model.

Being a huge fan of Andy S. And Peter O. I searched far and wide for a oval that had their sound and could supply a decent chop. Had to give it up and go with a cedar top ff hole to get the mellower sound and still have a chop.

But I was also working with a delightfully sensitive banjo player that would work with me and give up space as needed. That's the trick. If you find you are working too hard, you are working in the wrong range like Jim pointed out. I suspect that's why so many of us own different mandolins

[mrmando]

Anybody who played with Jimmy Martin
David McLaughlin (Johnson Mountain Boys)
Jim Watson (Red Clay Ramblers, Robin & Linda Williams)
Mike Compton

All of the above have made use of an oval-hole mandolin in a bluegrass or bluegrass-related string band setting. In the case of McLaughlin and Compton, the oval-hole was a secondary instrument, but still, it was a tool they used to get a certain sound. Tom Rozum usually has his oval-hole Gibson mandola along when he plays with Laurie Lewis.

Some Gibson snakeheads, in particular, will give you enough of a chop to play bluegrass. Right now I have a Bacon Amateur that turns out to have a pretty nice chop too.

[Ted Eschliman]

Certainly the bluegrass police will show up on this thread to give me what for. But I really see no reason a quality oval hole should not be played in bluegrass. It's a silly "rule" in my view. So flame away and show me the errors in my thought process. On last thought though. It was pointed out in the other thread that Bill himself played an oval hole from time to time.

Perfectly legitimate topic of discussion. Interesting responses citing scientific acoustic data. All this would have been great to discuss, but when the opening post invites "haters to hate," we have to draw the line.

As you were.