Trying to find a suitable role for the mandola

[Tobin]

I love the sound of a mandola (tenor mandola, for those so inclined). Being a fifth-interval deeper than the mandolin offers a nice baritone voice. And since adding one to my stable, I've been exploring what I can do with it. I am really enjoying it.

My wife and I both play mandolin, and typically switch back and forth between lead/rhythm, or play melody/harmony duets. Mostly what we play is fiddle tunes, some bluegrass, Old-Time, Celtic-style tunes, etc. We're not much into classical/baroque music or the like.

But I'm finding it a bit difficult to make the mandola "fit in". For starters, I can't seem to find any good sources of written music tailored specifically to the mandola that isn't classical music. I do realize, of course, that anything written for a viola, tenor banjo, or tenor guitar will work, but those seem difficult to find. Or they just don't work well on a mandola. And when I do find them, they are usually just the same tunes we normally play, transposed to a different key so that they work with CGDA tuning. And to be honest, that's mainly what we've been doing with the mandola so far. Just playing our usual stuff in a different key so that a mandolin-mandola pairing can both have a comfortable range. But it seems rather limiting.

What I'd really like to find is a source (or ideas) for music that's written specifically for a mandolin-mandola duet, that isn't classical music. These being the equivalent of a violin-viola pair, I would think that there would be a vast amount of music out there (though I fear it may all be classical). Is there a site you'd recommend that is mandola-specific?

I've looked for inspiration on the web, searching YouTube, etc., but it seems that what most people do is just take mandolin tunes and play them on the mandola (in a key that's one fifth interval lower than the original). So it seems I'm not alone in this.

My main issue seems to be finding a key that lets both the mandolin and mandola work together without someone running out of strings to play. The key that seems to work best is G. But with the usual tunes we play, it ends up with the mandola never even being able to use that C-string, and basically just mimicking a mandolin by staying on the G, D, and A strings. Depends on the tune, of course. I think I'll have to find melody lines that fit the mandola's range first and foremost, then work up harmony on the mandolin.

On top of that, I have only found a handful of people who seem to use the mandola for bluegrass or even Old-Time music. Are there any artists I could look to for inspiration on getting the full potential from a mandola? Kind of like the way Sierra Hull has done with the octave mandolin in bluegrass? Or the way Mike Marshall has incorporated the mandocello?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Rich DelGrosso switches between a National resonator mandolin and a Gibson H1 Mandola...

[JeffD]

My mandolin quartet has a mandola. We do mostly old time, northern and southern, and a few nutty pieces just to evoke a smile.

Our mandola (CGDA) player has a background in jam bands, so what he does is chords, double stops, and harmonic noodling against the melody being played on the mandolin. He doesn't read, but he can come up with nice harmonies, counter melodies and double stops almost on the fly.

On a few tunes he plays the melody, while the rest of us support him.

What we almost never do is unison melody mandolin and mandola. If we are both playing one of us is in a support role against the other's melody.

I asked him how he does it. He explained that he finds the melody, where ever it falls on his instrument, and comes up with things he can do with it, and for it, there. He never thinks about being a fifth down, he just deals with what he hears.

He says he can't play anything note for note more than once anyway, so mandola is the perfect role for him.

[Your timing is perfect. I am writing a blog post on how the quartet puts it all together and the roles of each of us. (Mandolin 1 and mandolin 2, mandola, and a mandocello.) Its not ready yet but the above is taken from it.]

[JeffD]

Mandola also makes a really cool solo instrument to play while singing. Mandolin, to my taste, is in a range that competes with the voice. Mandola comes in just under and just fills out the sound.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Listen to Don Grieser's Hillbilly Chamber Music CD, any Andy Irvine compilations, Jimmy Crowley and Marla Fibish's The Morning Star...

[foldedpath]

My main issue seems to be finding a key that lets both the mandolin and mandola work together without someone running out of strings to play. The key that seems to work best is G. But with the usual tunes we play, it ends up with the mandola never even being able to use that C-string, and basically just mimicking a mandolin by staying on the G, D, and A strings. Depends on the tune, of course. I think I'll have to find melody lines that fit the mandola's range first and foremost, then work up harmony on the mandolin.

If you haven't heard this one before, here's an idea to "synchronize" a mandola with mandolin, especially since you say you're playing mostly fiddle tunes.

Get a suitable capo (if you don't already have one), and capo at the 3rd fret so you're in DAEB tuning. Now you have the bottom three strings as DAE, same strings an octave down as the top three strings on a mandolin. Most (not all) OldTime and Irish/Scottish fiddle tunes only use those three strings, so you can play tunes you know on mandolin just by shifting over one set of strings. And you have a nice B note on top, which eliminates the pinky stretch for the high B note in fiddle tunes.

It requires a bit of thinking for chord forms, since you're dropping the bottom note you're used to, but melody lines fit very well this way. The exceptions are things like recently composed Contra Dance and a few Irish tunes (like Liz Carroll compositions) that go down on the bottom G string on mandolin and fiddle. For the usual fiddle tune repertoire it works well, a bit like having a short-scale octave mandolin.

If I was playing strictly Blues or Jazz, or accompanying myself singing, I'd keep my 4-string mandola in standard tuning. But since I mostly play "Celtic" these days, I've moved to a slightly lighter string gauge and keep my mandola in DAEB full time without a capo.

[Beanzy]

It's long been quite popular over here in England to get folk fiddlers playing with viola and violin.
They trade off between players doing rhythm and drones then into unison or playing a counter-melody, sometimes deliberately seeking dissonances to make things more interesting.

Two of our local players who I think get this really well are Nick Wycke and Becki Driscoll who each play both instruments expertly.
To get a feel for it you can check out what I mean on here on their YouTube page although there's not much of viola/violin up there on YT they include loads in their performances.

Here are a few old examples on twin fiddle
http://youtu.be/_EMCuc_7-x4 this one is particularly good at variations
http://youtu.be/u-L57D6bISY

From that side of the pond here's a video of the Abbots on viola and fiddle
http://youtu.be/QAqe9iRjmbc

Many modern folk fiddlers have adopted the five string for this, but I prefer the larger bodied viola tone.
Anyway it's all similarly achievable on the mandola / mandolin.
Seeking out the double stops/ chords and getting the mandola to work out of those is probably a good starting place, along with using complementary rhythms. For this you should get the mandolin to move to the main beat and let the mandola work in the off-beat space too and trade off those temporal spaces as well as the tonal differences. Also a good opportunity for the mandolin to get up the board and play well up leaving an even larger space between the sounds.

[Tobin]

From that side of the pond here's a video of the Abbots on viola and fiddle
http://youtu.be/QAqe9iRjmbc

Holy smokes, that was great! See, that's the kind of dynamics I'd like to get going with mandolin and mandola duets. But how does one go about putting it together? That tune, for example: I've listened to it several times and I can't clearly separate the two instruments to be able to tell who is playing what. That's the great thing about this mixture of voicings - they can separate with one going high and one going low, or come together in a blur of notes in the same octave range. And the fact that it's difficult to distinguish between the two players' notes means that it came together beautifully. But it also makes it difficult to analyze what they're doing and transpose it for mandolin/mandola.

Is there sheet music for this tune (or other fiddle tunes), broken down for violin and viola? Or is this something players are expected to just figure out by ear?

[JeffD]

Get a suitable capo (if you don't already have one), and capo at the 3rd fret so you're in DAEB tuning. Now you have the bottom three strings as DAE, same strings an octave down as the top three strings on a mandolin..

Second fret?

[JeffD]

, along with using complementary rhythms. For this you should get the mandolin to move to the main beat and let the mandola work in the off-beat space too and trade off those temporal spaces as well as the tonal differences.

Good point.

Also a good opportunity for the mandolin to get up the board and play well up leaving an even larger space between the sounds.

In my group I have a Weber Sopranino mandolin. It is pitched a fourth above the standard mandolin, so it is an octave above the mandola, two octaves above the mandocello. We stick that into the mix, four distinct voices, and it can sound really nice.

[foldedpath]

Second fret?

Oops, brain fart! Yes, second fret for DAEB on mandola.

[Mandobar]

Listen to Don Grieser's Hillbilly Chamber Music CD, any Andy Irvine compilations, Jimmy Crowley and Marla Fibish's The Morning Star...

Marla tunes her Mandola DGDA, and uses a capo, which makes it easier to some extent. I have several 19" scale mandolas and capoing at the second fret is quite suitable for playing in G and D. It all depends on what type of tunes you are playing.

[Laurence Firth]

I've started a Mandola Group here on the Cafe so we can keep this topic going and add tunes etc to the discussion. I've been trying Bach on my mandola and I bring it to "folk" jams as a general jam instrument. I never see a mandola at a bluegrass jam. I've tried playing fiddle tunes on my mandola but prefer to play them on my mandolin.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=289

Please join!

[Beanzy]

But how does one go about putting it together? That tune, for example: I've listened to it several times and I can't clearly separate the two instruments to be able to tell who is playing what.
>snip<
Is there sheet music for this tune (or other fiddle tunes), broken down for violin and viola? Or is this something players are expected to just figure out by ear?

This is where I'd definitely say learn the tune by ear on both instruments first. Really get on top of it. Then like with harmony vocals match it a third or fifth above to start with, always use other intervals too (every one of them) as you can get some lovely scrunchy moments you'd never think of from an academic or off the page approach. Then try to pull at things some more to see where you can make it interesting by jumping up octaves or swapping low and high parts, throwing the tune from instrument to instrument. Then see if you can come up with another melody or rhythm that enhances the feel and build a high or low accompaniment from that.

Really until you've ripped apart a stack of tunes like this you won't have found your way of working together, so rather than getting notation/tabs (HERE) you'll be better served by honing the ear skills with the other instrument. It can be real fun and the mistakes can be great too, especially with people who you trust and who trust you. One personal rule I'd have is that no idea goes unspoken and one rule between you is that the word "no" "not" or such never gets used. If it doesn't work well, then you have to come up with a 'how about' alternative before abandoning the idea. (even if it's just 'how about a coffee break' ) Otherwise people start self-censoring their ideas before they get a chance, where as a really useless suggestion can trigger the moment of 'genius' in the other player. So there are no mistakes, just things you've tried and moved on from.

[domradave]

Get THE MANDOLA SAMPLER by Niles Hokkanen. There are lots of ideas in there. Stan Jay gave me a copy when I bought a Flatiron mandola at Mandolin Brothers. Niles is a great teacher!

[Tobin]

This is where I'd definitely say learn the tune by ear on both instruments first. Really get on top of it. Then like with harmony vocals match it a third or fifth above to start with, always use other intervals too (every one of them) as you can get some lovely scrunchy moments you'd never think of from an academic or off the page approach. Then try to pull at things some more to see where you can make it interesting by jumping up octaves or swapping low and high parts, throwing the tune from instrument to instrument. Then see if you can come up with another melody or rhythm that enhances the feel and build a high or low accompaniment from that.

Really until you've ripped apart a stack of tunes like this you won't have found your way of working together, so rather than getting notation/tabs (HERE) you'll be better served by honing the ear skills with the other instrument. It can be real fun and the mistakes can be great too, especially with people who you trust and who trust you. One personal rule I'd have is that no idea goes unspoken and one rule between you is that the word "no" "not" or such never gets used. If it doesn't work well, then you have to come up with a 'how about' alternative before abandoning the idea. (even if it's just 'how about a coffee break' ) Otherwise people start self-censoring their ideas before they get a chance, where as a really useless suggestion can trigger the moment of 'genius' in the other player. So there are no mistakes, just things you've tried and moved on from.

Thanks, and what you describe is pretty much what I think I'm going to have to do. Basically just take some tunes, dissect them, and experiment with combinations of mandolin/mandola to put them back together in a pleasing way. I do enjoy that sort of thing.

But it really surprises me that there isn't a wider base of people who pair these two instruments together, who might have already figured out a sort of standard role for the two when played together. I mean, we all pretty much know that the mandolin, banjo, bass, guitar, dobro, fiddle, and other instruments have fairly well-defined roles in different genres of music. But the mandola seems to be a red-headed stepchild, and the best descriptions I get of its role is that people use it for noodling around.

The reason I prefer to see written music (or create written versions of what I'm playing) is because my wife primarily learns that way. She's only about a year into playing an instrument at all, and after many attempts at different methods to teach her new tunes or chords or whatnot, I've found that she just has to see it on paper. Perhaps with time it will come more easily to her (and indeed she has improved a lot in her ear for music), but for now I really have to commit things to paper. Not to mention, we have so many tunes that we play, it's hard to keep it all straight sometimes without it!

[allenhopkins]

Here's how I use mandola for harmony (to Mark Deprez's mandolin-banjo) in Innisfree. You can see that it's "alto" to the mandolin-banjo's "soprano" in most cases. Second time through the third tune, Mark and I double melody an octave apart.

Mandola in this case is a longer-scale Sobell. Other instruments are hammered dulcimer (Barb Jablonski) and 12-string guitar (Kathleen Cappon).

Not saying this is great, but it's one possible approach. Tunes are Irish Washerwoman, Swallowtail Jig, Saddle the Pony.

[Beanzy]

Quite a cool short cut to getting notation you can both work off would be to get hold of the tenor banjo/guitar notation as there are loads of those for CGDA reading out of treble. It may be worth a rummage with those tenor banjo tunes in mind ie;
BHO Search for CGDA tunes then search out those tunes for mandolin by using the 'Irish Tuning' menu option instead of Standard Tenor?

Another option for standards to work through http://www.scoreexchange.com/scores/68913.html

[Mike Anderson]

Celtic, you say? My favourite mandola player, Brian McDonagh:

[Mandobar]

I have used a Mandola on Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, Old Dangerfield, and then for Irish and old time tunes. Ugh all depends on the key. Gold Rush is a bit challenging though.

[Tobin]

OK, so here is a tune I've been working on. An old-time fiddle tune called Feed Your Horse Corn and Hay. Actually, I've pretty well bastardized the original fiddle tune (found here). I took the basic melody as notated there, and added my own chord progression which is different than their audio file example. It probably makes it a different tune entirely and deserving of a new name, but I'll stick with its original name for now. And my meddling has removed it from any semblance of old-time style.

I've created a mandolin/mandola duet piece out of it, where each instrument plays the melody once (or a close approximation thereof), with the other playing rhythm, and then they come together at the end (third time through the tune) for some interesting interaction. Or possibly horrifying interaction, depending on your outlook.

Pardon my amateurishness in TablEdit, but the .tef file is attached to this post as well as .pdf files for each part.

Keep in mind that I'm still experimenting with ways to make the mandola and mandolin work together aside from just playing rhythm while the other plays the melody. So it's really the third go-round where I was tinkering with the parts. One thing I think works well is for them to be complementing each other in harmony, but not necessarily playing the same note durations at the same time. It keeps them together, but apart. Separate but equal, LOL.

What are your thoughts? Any pointers on ways to make them flow better together?