The ultimate OLD and IN THE WAY

[AlanN]

why no Peter Rowan guitar breaks? And any video out there?

He was mostly trad in a bluegrass setting, and outside of Clarence White and Doc, there were few guitar pickers who took breaks back then. Pete's style was pretty straight and a break would have likely been a bass note, downstroke thing.

I too would love to see some OAITW vids. The closest is that TV show of Muleskinner (have it on VHS). Some stoned hippies in that....

[Rex Hart]

Debatable, my friend, debatable.

I can't put my finger on it, but in some way I can't fully explain or understand, OAITW sounds almost older than WSM. Maybe it is the sagging or timing, but their music just seems to flow. I love Garcia's accentuated banjo at the end of vocal lines. I love Vasser's break on Wild Horses, I love all the breaks on The Hobo Song. Is it perfect? Are there flaws? Does Jerry play with the timing of JD Crowe? Does Vasser play with the preciseness of Mark O'Connor? Are Dawg's solo's as intricate as Thile? Nah. I am thankful for that and for this recording. This is more about feeling and if some don't get it, I can't help you, but I hope you get it someday.

[AlanN]

If this is directed to me, I'll play. Here's the quote from above that I questioned:

he would just go and play what is now considered some of the best bluegrass out there.

I have said OAITW was its own thing, full of all of the various influences going into it, some of them very beautiful. In that regard, it was hard to beat and was wonderful. To claim it is 'some of the best bg out there' is debatable. And that aspect hardly plays into the whole OAITW vibe, anyway.

[Rex Hart]

Alan,
It's all good, and I guess it is "debatable", but to me, it is some of the best bluegrass out there. However, point taken. OAITW probably didn't consider themselves the best by any means. Like you said, it wasn't there vibe. I bet it was considered rather progressive when it came out, but now sounds almost traditional if not old timey. That album along with Barren County by NGR were the two that got me and I was hooked. That led to Stanley Brothers and WSM. No more Outlaws and Lynyrd Skynrd for me!

[AlanN]

You betcha. The prism of time has a way of putting everything into perspective. With a related recording, The Good Ol' Boys Pistol Packin' Mama, and Frank's mandolinisms, seemed radical at the time. Now, if I listen to it, I see how closely FW was tethered to the Monroe pole.

As you say, Rex...it's all good.

[Gary Hedrick]

Remember that Vassar's fiddle style was hardly long bow bluegrass of the Gordon Terry's of the world. He played a lot of short stroke jazz (to my ear) passages.

Alan, it is true that looking back things don't quite seem the way they were with the perspective of time. I used to really find Frank Wakefield's playing to be a bunch of note factory stuff. But when I go back and listen to some of the recordings with Red Allen and naw it isn't that way at all.

[SternART]

Grisman learned a lot about Monroe style directly from Frank.........who was one of the first to really study it & when he wants to Wakefield can indeed play a lot like Monroe. I hear a lot of Monroe-isms
played by Grisman on this 4 CD set of OAITW.

[Gary Hedrick]

Oh certainly when one listens to Grisman he can throw the switch and play Monroe as good as anyone I've heard and so can Wakefield. OAITW just had a vibe that was loose and free flowing.....the harmony of the vocals in many cases left a little bit to be desired. Some of Vassar's fiddle playing was more Stephen Graffelli (sp?) than Monroe fiddle player in style. But the music to me was interesting....a mix of several styles by folks that were great musicians.

When I lived in Fresno for several years and played at a jam session there some of the music was tinged with their music along with western swing. When I played I had folks asking me where I was from because I played "Kentucky" bluegrass. But OAITW certainly was an big influence on a number of the pickers there.

[Bernie Daniel]

I have the original LP album that I bought new when it first came out !

Me too! I love the cover art!

[LMF]

I've always wanted to give OAITW a listen but it was not available a few years back. Looks like I have something to download tomorrow.

[Gary Hedrick]

Remember that in the days when this was done guitar players did rhythm very few picked breaks etc. Also Pete Rowan most certainly could play driving rhythm ...I heard him do it with Monroe.

When I lived in Fresno for 8 years I played at a jam session where many of the folks played in the style of OAITW....a kind of loose flowing grass...a couple of the fiddle players were kind of Grappelli like in their phrasing.....I had a number of folks ask me where I was from because I played "Kentucky" bluegrass....

This band influenced a number of folks in those years....many Deadheads were drawn to bluegrass by Garcia playing a banjo.

A couple of the folks where I worked in Indiana were true Deadheads and when I explained to them that Garcia was playing banjo before the Dead came about they just about were ready to lynch me.....then I told the story of him and Sandy Rothman making copies of bluegrass tapes from Bean Blossom in the basement of my father's shop and they calmed down a bit.....I had seen and experienced the presence of the "master" first hand so I was blessed.

[AlanN]

Re-reading the Rice book, the part where he left JD, moved out west to be with Grisman. The joy, enthusiasm and sheer musical magic that was then is so cool to re-live, through his eyes. It was all so new and vibrant then. When the DGQ record came out, it was a pure mindblast. And it was all a continuum of OAITW, 70's bluegrass.

[Glassweb]

Old & In The Way were amazing in many ways. When you have the musicality of Peter Rowan, David Grisman, Jerry Garcia and Vassar Clements in one band... well, that's a hell of a lot vision, diversity and experience! Vassar and Peter were members of Monroe's band... so the vibe was thick on their part and of course Jerry brought his cult status, his enthusiasm and soulful voice. And the Dawg... well what can you say about the Dawg? The guy was (and is) just an ELECTRIC player with an amazing life force. One of the greatest rhythm players of all time as far as I'm concerned. Also OAITW perfectly reflected the times they were living in... heavily influenced by drugs and rock n' roll... maybe sex too! You see all these kids playing "Americana" and banjos and stuff today? In no small way was OAITW directly responsible for this. By the way, I was speaking with Andy Statman the other night and we both agree that Grisman is, hands down, the most influential and important mandolinist of all time. I know many would argue with that, perhaps even David himself, but I'll stand by it...

[SternART]

By the way, I was speaking with Andy Statman the other night and we both agree that Grisman is, hands down, the most influential and important mandolinist of all time. I know many would argue with that, perhaps even David himself, but I'll stand by it...

No argument here.

[Gary Hedrick]

Oh the Bluegrass Police will come after you two.....

But if you really take into account the Acoustic Disc stuff......the OAITW stuff....the other bluegrass recording etc.... the academic material..... the classic stuff...the Dawg Music....the helping and influencing of a whole bunch of folks that wouldn't know a mandolin from a "funny little guitar"....then you are likely correct in total numbers and he hopefully still has a bunch more left in the tank which will further cement that influence.

[Glassweb]

Oh the Bluegrass Police will come after you two.....

But if you really take into account the Acoustic Disc stuff......the OAITW stuff....the other bluegrass recording etc.... the academic material..... the classic stuff...the Dawg Music....the helping and influencing of a whole bunch of folks that wouldn't know a mandolin from a "funny little guitar"....then you are likely correct in total numbers and he hopefully still has a bunch more left in the tank which will further cement that influence.

How right you are Gary... and lest we forget, guess who is responsible for the now worldwide fervor and fever for Choro music in general and Choro mandolin in particular? It ain't Red Rector baby!

[Gary Hedrick]

Yep, that's just the point that you and Arthur are dead on about.....the man has influence and exposure in this world of internet and he knows how to work things and seems to have a never ending curiosity about different forms of music and the mandolin.

[Glassweb]

Actually it was David's legendary mandolin work on The Grateful Dead's "American Beauty" (Ripple, Friend of the Devil) that sent legions of young longhairs scurrying out the door to buy a little 8-stringer (yeah, I was one)! And hey, don't forget his composition "Doggy Mountain Breakdown", which was heard repeatedly for YEARS every week on NPR's Car Talk w/ Klic & Klack, The Tappit Bros. No, seriously... this Dawgs paws go deep and don't let go...

[fatt-dad]

thanks for the OP. I saw the band at some bluegrass festival in the early 70s. We were at the Culpeper or the Culpeper/Warrington Bluegrass festival. Just crazy good with everybody from Grandpa Jones to NGR.

Now who cited Les McCann? You see back in those days, I listened to jazz and bluegrass. It was Les' "Invitation to Openness" that got the most airplay in my house though.

f-d

[brunello97]

....Now who cited Les McCann? You see back in those days, I listened to jazz and bluegrass. It was Les' "Invitation to Openness" that got the most airplay in my house though.

f-d

Les McCann (another Kentucky boy!) blew my Texas Gulf Coast ears open. All else followed. Try to make it real.

[SternART]

I just heard this OAITW download is now the Acoustic Oasis biggest seller.

[neebee]

I got the CD two days ago - I don't do downloads. Awesome sound and great to hear some other versions of what I have been listening to for years. On the 10/1 show, Dawg and JG really get down at the end of Old and In the Way Breakdown. Thanks again, SternART, for kicking off this thread.

[neebee]

I forgot about a CD I had titled "Studio Sessions". Not sure when it was recorded but I think it was early in the Vasser era. Lots of good chatter and cool practicing great songs. Can somebody tell me how to post tunes to the forum?

[Will Patton]

In response to your post about the lust for that big rhythm section behind your solo thang - Django and Dawg - I've heard that same thing, Art, and had it collaborated by a number of folks - Ya just need that big honkin' pompe behind you! Great bit of writing here, thanks.
WP

[Psyberbilly]

Exactly . The music is alive and it breathes. It's not machine like , but it is human , warts and all . As someone who plays five string banjo , I believe that Garcia's missing middle right hand finger ( which required him to use the ring finger in it's place ) had a lot to do with his banjo sound . I have played around using that finger , just out of curiosity. Can't replicate what he does , but it does noticably change the sound .

A friend of mine from North Carolina was buying a load of white oak wood an old man had cut at his old home built saw mill , and made a mention ( not complaining , just noticing ) of the fact that the wood didn't conform to modern commercial " norms " .

The old man grinned at him and said " Ya want it perfect , or do ya want it WOOD ? "

I like "wood" and am vastly appreciative of some of the same imperfections in music .