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Thread: Mandocello: Where to start?

  1. #26
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by ombudsman View Post
    Mandobart, you mentioned exactly what I have been thinking of - something in a long-ish scale in octaves rather than unison. I'd like to get into something like that, ideally in CGDA tuning, as I have started dabbling on tenor banjo and think I could take on this tuning.

    If there are any particularly suited or not suited instruments for octave stringing purposes, or other pieces of information that come to mind, I'd love to hear more about your experiences. I'd like to go vintage if I could find something suitable, but only if I would be able to reduce rather than increase the stress on the instrument with my non standard stringing.

    Cheers
    My easy to remember rule of thumb for octave pairs, is you can double the frequency (octave higher) and halve the string diameter and there is no net change in string tension. So that's how I string 'em up.

    Since the Eastman takes ball end (guitar) strings, I use giotar strings: C1 .066, C2 .032, G1 .046, G2 .020, D1 .032, D2.014, both A's .020.

    I've strung it opposite of a 12 string guitar, where the octave higher strings are on the left or bass side, or top if you're playing right handed. Here's a repost of my 'cello with octave pairs:


  2. #27
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    thanks. That is definitely helpful.

    I hope whatever I end up with can handle ball end strings since that gives a lot more options. I was looking at tension charts and guessing that if I went with a very light gauge - maybe an .008 or .0085, but even .007 exists and could be tried - I should be able to do an octave on the A as well. That's a very small string of course, but I'm not a hard picker. The nut could be cut so as to favor the lower string in that course, improving the string survival odds further.

    Then I found the below discussion among seven string guitarists, the gist of which is that with typical slightly long guitar scale lengths (25.5") the high A is problematic; you can do it with the .007 but it's right at the threshold of breaking although the tension isn't that high. With a somewhat shorter scale it's going to be more stable and some of the slightly higher gauges might work too. So I am guessing 23" to 24" is going to be my best bet.

    This might all seem nit-picky, but I've done some 12 string guitar playing and I always dislike the jump from the octave pairs (which go up to G in my case) and the unison pairs. I had been thinking of converting a 12 string guitar to an 8 in EADG tuning, but something in fifths with as much of a mandolin tone as I can get would be a nice acoustic flavor for my music.

    http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lut...periences.html

  3. #28
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
    My easy to remember rule of thumb for octave pairs, is you can double the frequency (octave higher) and halve the string diameter and there is no net change in string tension. So that's how I string 'em up.

    Since the Eastman takes ball end (guitar) strings, I use giotar strings: C1 .066, C2 .032, G1 .046, G2 .020, D1 .032, D2.014, both A's .020.

    I've strung it opposite of a 12 string guitar, where the octave higher strings are on the left or bass side, or top if you're playing right handed. Here's a repost of my 'cello with octave pairs:
    That mandocello sounds good!

    Here is the sound of a mandocello strung octave the other way with the lower string first (i.e. strung Cc Gg Dd AA) the gauges are: 0.074"; 0.038" / 0.048"; 0.025"/ 0.034"; 0.018";/ 0.022"; 0.022".

    I was just experimenting in this video with trying to add a lower register to the flute & harp tune. I hope you can here the mandocello clearly enough among the other instruments. I'd do another recording of the mandocello by itself but I've already converted it back to unison stringing. Placing the smaller (higher pitched) string on the inside or treble side give the mandocello a decided 12-string guitar sound. I liked it at first but got tired of it after awhile.

    Also I think an octave strung mandocello is actually more tricky to play because the fretting and picking need to adjust the the fact that up strokes and down strokes feel and sound different.

    I use the same approximately half the string diameter for the octave higher pitch to keep tensions constant.
    Bernie
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Thanks for the videos guys, those are helpful.

    I know what you mean about the right hand technique for octave pairs Bernie. I think that is solvable for me because I've got some experience with 12 string guitar, and I do have good picking technique. For the sound I am going for the higher pitch would be the more important of the two to strike cleanly/fully, and I think with the octaves on the treble side I can fingerpick or combination pick , or use all upstrokes (which I tend to favor anyway for reasons unbeknownst to me) to get the primary sound and then use downstrokes for a contrasting sound sometimes.

    I think the octave pairs with relatively light strings will work OK for fingerpicking, whereas the heavier unison strings that are recommended for mandocellos would be harder on my nails.

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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Here's some ovation


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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    Here's some ovation
    sounds great!
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Nicely done!
    Be true to your teeth, or they'll be false to you!

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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Nice job, tmsweeney. You play both parts very well! Is that a cf OM?

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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Mandobart thanks,

    cf ? not sure what you mean
    it's a Weber Gallatin, unison courses, 20", very dark. so far one of my favorites.

  10. #35
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    I thought it might be carbon fiber since its so dark. I've heard clips of carbon mandos here, and have a friend with a CF cello. Very stable during temperature/humidity changes.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by goatmilk View Post
    Also, some music recommendations for what to start on or what books to start with would be appreciated.
    I'd start by watching this intro video that Mike Marshall did a few years ago:

    still trying to turn dreams into memories

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus CA View Post
    I'd start by watching this intro video that Mike Marshall did a few years ago:
    Yes, but only if you want to be intimidated right from the get go..............
    Bernie
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  13. #38
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Mandobart - well the back of the ovation is cf but you already knew that

    not sure what that weber is made of, guess it's easy enough to find out.

    If you watch Mike M play - he uses a lot of open string while playing 7-12th fret type of thing on the string below.

  14. #39
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    ...If you watch Mike M play - he uses a lot of open string while playing 7-12th fret type of thing on the string below.
    I've watched that video several times over the years. It always seems to me that at 7:01 he is using his thumb to fret the C-course?
    Bernie
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  15. #40

    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    I have a similar wish, but none of the experience with stringed Instruments. I'm quite enchanted with the mando cello sound, & wish to learn as an accompanyment instrument. I'm soprano but just average in my signing. I really want to do some gospel bluegrass tunes, as well as some instrumental Celtic and classical. I'd start on a mandolin (took a few lessons already) but feel it's too high for accompanying my voice. I considered an octave mandolin, but really want that bass sound alongside my voice. What do I do? I really want to sing and play right away, & want the sound of that instrument right away. I'm willing to put some effort Into learning if I had the course, book or great lessons. Any suggestions?

    I'm Just starting with stringed instruments, but studied voice and piano.

  16. #41
    Registered User Mike Rodbell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    FYI. I once set a query to the Bluegrass college or whatever the school is the Mike has started and asked what they would do if someone requested mandocello lessons. The answer was "Mike says mandocellos are welcome". So there is a possibility.

    Also yes on the phases thing. One good part about spending a few weeks on the mandocello is that by comparison everything else -- even octave mandolins -- are like child's play!
    I realize this post is from close to five years ago, so first off apologies that its out of the blue. I recently purchase a 5-course mandocello & am considering signing up for Mike Marshall's classes. I'd used them for mandolin and really appreciated his advice. I'm thinking of submitting a few videos & getting him to take a quick look & make some recommendations. Had you decided to use his service for mandocello & if so, what was your experience? I don't envision that the bluegrass mandolin site will have much direct value (for mandocello) beyond getting his advice (which I imagine would be extremely helpful).

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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Started with mandolin, joined a mandolin orchestra and moved to mandocello. Reading through this thread I see interesting perspectives and opinions. Also wish I had played more instrumental music when young (I'm a retired choral director). Some of the comments about chords and accompanying are accurate but I think not entirely appropriate. The cello, mando- or otherwise, is not built to play chords (you can, of course) but rather melodic bass lines. I do fool around a bit with bluegrass tunes and a few 3-string chords, which are a challenge with slightly arthritic thumb joints. But I really got the instrument (first a Vega cylinder-back, then a 1918 K2, more recently, a 1911 K4) to play string quartets, orchestra parts, and Bach suites.
    And I must step in here because there IS (or at least will be soon) music for mandocello: I will be presenting a number of solo mandocello pieces (not cello transcriptions) by contemporary composers and from early 20th Century Method Books at the CMSA Convention in Santa Rosa. These pieces will become available soon: some on open websites, some by purchase from the composers.

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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Birdie, I was a vocal/choral major too, so singing is my strong point and I only started mandolin when I was in my 60's. I agree the mandolin is not the best as vocal accompaniment on its own, although Chris Thiele does it like nobody else. I almost always get together with other instruments--the obvious bluegrass combo (banjo, fiddle, bass) with the rhythm guitar filling in the full range. I tried a cheap octave mando, not satisfied: did not have the bass feel I hoped for, and the chords I was used to playing on the mandolin were much more of a stretch than I thought. But maybe a really good one would give you what you want. My real love is the mandocello, but I don't sing with it much. I see people playing MC chords and finger style, sounds cool but I don't have the hands for that. Besides the instrument (Gibson's, anyway) was originally designed to play bass/cello parts, which is how I use it.
    What kind of stuff do you sing? Ever tried De vieni a la finestra from Mozart's Don Giovanni? It has mandolin acompaniment!

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    Default Re: Mandocello: Where to start?

    Just a quick note: I just got my Eastman 804 (oval hole mandocello, I like them that way) for significantly less than $2K, even including tax and shipping here in my state. If you shop around and ask, you may be able to do pretty well with cost.

    AND, if you're ever anywhere driving up the Coast of California, north of Santa Barbara and South of Salinas, stop by my place and play a few of mine. Free lunch, too.
    Clark Savage Turner
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