1898 Martin Style 6. What should I do?

I just acquired this 1898 Martin style 6 (or so what my research uncovered). #267 It is missing some binding, and the bridge cover plate. But is overall in sound shape, the action is a little high, but I believe with a little work it would be a nice instrument.

My big issue is I'm a guitar and bass player. I've built and repaired guitars for decades non-professionally. I could repair it myself, but feel it is too historic a piece to mess with it. I'd really rather trade it for an equivalent condition old guitar or electric bass than go through the hassle of listing it online, PayPal etc. My questions are 1) Am I nuts or unrealistic to expect a straight trade? 2) What would you value it at (I think give or take 1000 usd given binding repair, maybe neck reset) 3) What do you suggest?

Should I clean it? Or not. I think that nearly all of the blemishes are just surface grime. A few have told me don't touch it. But in guitar restoration, a mild cleaning is not a big deal. Except for electric guitars, which nowadays people seem to like them "reliced". I don't know attitudes about this in the mandolin world, or what the right thing to do is in regards to such an example of an early Martin.

What a magnificent instrument! Cash was invented as barter is difficult and I think it unlikely you will be able to get a guitar that you like that way- even with some cash changing hands but you could try it. I think a light clean is not an issue but leaving it alone will not be a negative as the instrument does not need burnishing- it speaks for itself as it is. I think getting it repaired by an expert is the best idea- whether that is organized by you or someone down the line but if repairing it increases its value substantially, you might want to do that and have the knowledge that it is in good playing order when you sell it.

Fair play to you, B. Covey.

I'm usually not a fan of the blinged up Martin bowlbacks, but this one catches my eye.

What will catch folks' eye is your first photo, which shows the mandolin's neck woefully out of position and a pretty impossible playing action.

Unfortunately, these mandolins don't have a truss rod or any unobstrusive means to adjust the action.

I've seen some Martin bowlbacks that have had an imbedded steel bar in the neck under the fretboard to ostensibly add some stiffness.

As you hint, a neck reset is likely needed to get this playable as the bridge / saddle doesn't appear to offer any wiggle room.

And the neck is pretty far out.

The good news is that the neck is likely attached to the neck block via a dovetail or similar joint.

I have done extensive repair work on a range of US and Italian bowlbacks (that were my own) so I've got some sense of what this will take.

The bad news is that all that bling and the cowling at the neck / bowl joint will make any such repair that much more complicated and certainly expensive.

It looks as if the neck rotation upward is a consequence of some top sinkage, or the two events are intertwined.

But that will need repair attention, too.


The market for bowlback mandolins in the States is a small one as it is. For a mandolin needing this level of work it is likely to be even smaller.
And to make it even harder to gauge value, the number of folks willing to take on this scope of work is exceedingly small.


$1K price and $1K in repairs yields you a $2K Martin 6. Might be worth it to someone, but it will be a small pool.

Trading with another builder / luthier who would relish the task might be the lucky way to go.

Maybe trading it for a guitar or bass that also needs extensive work might reel in some ringers.


Good luck!

Mick

Yeah, that certainly makes sense. I have been thinking of the option of investing in it and bringing it to a reputable professional. But It kind of bothers me though, as I've restored old guitars, including several Gibsons, and an old 20's Martin. Which all had higher value than this. Then the idea of paying money to someone and not being quite happy with the results would bother me. Conversely, I'm unfamiliar with bowlback mandolins, and really would rather spend my time on my true love, guitars. And this is a truly remarkable piece.

I could sell it as is I suppose, but then I would lose the existential satisfaction of bartering. In my ideal situation, someone would trade a 60's Harmony electric, or a dusty parlor to refurbish. An off the wall hollow body bass from Japan. Even an abused Fender bass neck All things which I would really dig restoring. And the person exchanging would have the equal experience. But I suppose cash is indeed a tool. But then selling invokes the specter of nitpicking buyers. People intent on profit versus people just passionate about instruments. I suppose they aren't exclusionary, but it would be nice that someone excited for this got it and loved it.

The Johnson & Boak book, Martin Guitars: A Technical Reference, says that only 3 #6 mandolins were made in 1898 and only 3 in 1896. I wonder if Martin would be interested in buying it for their museum. Or you might list it for sale at UMGF.com. It's too bad the playability is what it is.

I sent you a message.

You have a real rarity; per Longworth's book, only 106 Style 6 mandolins were made over 25 years, 1896-1921. I think you should contact a vintage instrument dealer, and talk about what kind of deal they might be willing to make -- knowing that #267 needs some serious restoration. There's not an established vintage dealer that doesn't have a back room full of "projects" that may or may not end up being restored. Some will be sold "as is" to aspiring restorers or repair-persons.

A good luthier/repair tech with bowlback experience could accomplish the neck re-set and binding restoration, and sell the instrument at a profit. If the dealer had something in the back room that met your criteria for a restoration project, you could work out a barter transaction. Given the mandolin's rarity, a vintage dealer might be excited just to see it. Your requests as listed above are quite modest; a fully-restored Martin #6 is probably as valuable in the marketplace as any US-made bowlback, and what you're looking for could be basic run-of-the-mill stuff -- Kay Kraft parlor guitar, e.g.

I'd start with a few phone calls or e-mails, test the waters, see if you arouse some interest. It's a "diamond in the rough," but still a gem.

Thank you everyone so much for your advice, suggestions and comments!
I really would like someday to find a win/win situation and deliver this to where it would be loved and appreciated.
I am happy at least to show it to mandolin lovers in this forum.
In much the same way I enjoy looking at old electric guitars in other forums.

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Originally Posted by B.Covey

I could sell it as is I suppose, but then I would lose the existential satisfation of bartering. In my ideal situation, someone would trade a 60's Harmony electric, or a dusty parlor to refurbish. An off the wall hollow body bass from Japan. Even an abused Fender bass neck All things which I would really dig restoring. And the person exchanging would have the equal experience.....

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Well, I certainly understand where you're coming from there as more and more of that has been coloring my life.

I think when I was a kid my Daddy said: "When you're young you have plenty of time and no money. When you're older you'll have money but you'll wish you had more time."

He's been dead right.

Someone you might contact is our long unseen friend here, Jake Wildwood. He does all types of instrument repairs and has an eclectic eye for old guitars and perhaps basses, too. He's done bowlback restorations as well and might just be interested.

The other (long shot) option might be mi hermano, Esteban, over in Houston. He's a bass player and seems to endless be collecting basses.
He has no interest in mandolins so he'd likely give it to me.

I'd call that a win-win-win. ;) Just joking, I don't think I'm up for tangoing with all that bling.


FWIW I like the idea of it pulling back into Nazareth, too.


Mick

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Originally Posted by allenhopkins

A good luthier/repair tech with bowlback experience could accomplish the neck re-set and binding restoration...

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When you meet this person, Allen, please send along the contact information........

Mick

It's your mandolin, so you can do whatever you want to it. Clean, restore, etc.

I would prefer it untouched. That way, I can see what's wrong with it and what should be done. And the worst job in a restoration, is to remove and fix "repairs" that previous owners have done. OR professionnals that sand and laquer everything to look as new.

And I can restore it to the level I prefer.

If you ever come to Europe, bring i with you and I'll buy it or give me a good price, so I can afford the local VAT on US goods. ;-)

I had a 1902 Style 6 a few years ago. (Pictured below) A lovely instrument and I admired the incredible workmanship that went into it. I did have it worked on by my luthier and it was playable. But frankly, it really doesn't sound better than any rosewood bowl Martin of that period. Pearl work doesn't contribute much to acoustics. I sold it eventually to another MCer a few years ago. However, take what I am going to say with a grain of sodium chloride...

I know everyone in this thread is excited about this mandolin and rightly so. However...even though we bowlheads have attempted to perk up interest in this style of mandolin and have done as best we could over the years, it is still a hard sell in the vintage market especially in North America but even in Europe.

In addition, it is very hard to find luthiers who know how to restore these bowlbacks unless you want to ship it off to Europe. Believe me I have other quality bowlbacks that are sitting in my closet needing some work.

Honestly, this is a collector's instrument. Probably a completist type of collector may need it to fill in the style 6 space in his/her collection. Frankly, I would not think this is a mandolin that a virtuoso player even one chow plays classical would be interested in.

As for rarity, and this is a quote maybe attributable George Gruhn: "Well, the Bubonic plague is rare, but I wouldn't spend much to obtain it."

If I were you I would sell it as-is. Unless you really want to play it, don't put any money into it, assuming you can even find someone who has the skills, knowledge and willingness to restore it. Just my 2 cents.

You might want to contact George Gruhn and discuss your options.
He can consign the instrument, and his shop can repair it competently.
Expect their repair rates to be high.
If their terms don't suit you, remember that you can always say no.

I will mention that the original bindings on this instrument are probably real ivory rather than celluloid grained ivoroid.

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Originally Posted by rcc56

I will mention that the original bindings on this instrument are probably real ivory rather than celluloid grained ivoroid.

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Right... and so is the bridge and saddle. Mine was too. So might be problematic selling it to anyone outside the US, even Denmark... :)

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Originally Posted by Jim Garber

...I know everyone in this thread is excited about this mandolin and rightly so. However...even though we bowlheads have attempted to perk up interest in this style of mandolin and have done as best we could over the years....

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Jim, you'll probably recall the "Eugene Effect" on Martin bowl prices after he was on here touting the splendids of his Martin 5 (or maybe it's a 6).

Or at least that's why I tell him I can't afford one anymore. ;)

I think it might still be his main axe.


I don't mean to be a grump, but I do think Martin had a pretty heavy hand when it came to bling. I enjoy the fretboard inlay, and of course the bowl fluting, but the the headstock, scratchplate and top banding where the fretboard meets the soundhole is too much for my eyes.

Much too fussy a design composition for me. An odd collection of disparate bling elements.

Maybe I'm spoied by the iconic cleanliness of much of Martin's design output.

Mick

Forgive my late night musings.
Ivory bindings, yes. As is the bridge. I believe the pickguard is probably tortoise. These are materials they used back then. It certainly bothers me that apparently intelligent and self aware creatures were killed for decorative purposes. But at the same time, it is what this instrument would need as a restoration. I was patina matching old ivory piano keys from a destroyed 19th century upright at a friend's. This type of veneer might possibly be an appropriate thickness for the ivory binding sections missing. Better than to see the material go to waste in a landfill. Ivoroid wouldn't be right in this case, imo.

Although this level of inlay is also wildly over the top for my tastes, I think the inlay artist(s) presented a certain dignity in the design of #267's fretboard. I don't imagine records exist of the names of who did what at Martin in 1898. But cheers to those who worked on this.

I also agree that this is unlikely to be many player's main instrument. Which is a little sad somehow, considering the effort in creating it. I certainly suspect it would sound surprisingly good restored based on other threads. It currently has a horrible mismatch of strings, different ages too. However I plucked it a bit, and it was bell like, and it reverbated on several notes, and I could sense what others say about these old Martin bowl backs. I loosened the strings to take the tension off things, while I consider options. I don't imagine it having new strings until it is ready for them, so maybe I'll never hear it's true capability.

After some personal messages, I like the suggestions that Martin be offered a chance to study and document it or even trade for it if they had an interest. I respect C.F. Martin & Company's impact on music and their role in our culture. I know they produced some outstanding instruments over the years and probably have a killer collection. And similar examples no doubt. Despite #267's flaws, it still represents their top catalog offering at a formative and transitional time when the 19th century was closing and the 20th century was dawning. I'll message them just for kicks. I'll also message a few other dealers and collectors just to get their takes.

Thanks again so much for everyone's input. Many valid perspectives. It is certainly a notable piece, if anything.

I am sure the Martin folks would love to see it. I visited there in 2013 and took a bunch of photos in the museum which I shared in these forums then. Here are some relevant ones. The super pearly bowlback is a style 7 from 1902, even fancier than a style 6. From the fact that no two of these fluted Martins look alike I would assume they were special custom order and the customer paid top dollar.

The mold pictured below is for a style 6 or 7 so both your and my former mandolins were built likely on that same mold.

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Originally Posted by brunello97

When you meet this person, Allen, please send along the contact information........
Mick

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Well, I've had good experience with Bernie Lehmann at Lehmann Stringed Instruments here in Rochester. Basically, he builds guitars, but he's done quite a bit of work on mandolins (built my 10-string, fanned-fret 2-point) as well as lutes, rebecs, and other Renaissance instruments, both construction and restoration.

I'm planning to bring him my Waldo mandocello which has developed a crack along the cant in the top. Dave Stutzman gave up on it, and he's done some bowl-back work for me. I'll know more about Bernie's "chops" when he's had a crack at it. Like other Waldos, it has f-holes, so repair access will be quite a problem.

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Originally Posted by brunello97

Jim, you'll probably recall the "Eugene Effect" on Martin bowl prices after he was on here touting the splendids of his Martin 5 (or maybe it's a 6).

Or at least that's why I tell him I can't afford one anymore. ;)

I think it might still be his main axe.

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It was an unusual Martin bowlback called a style 6a, made for Joseph Handley of Lowell, MA was a rather plain 6 with fluted bowl and a side-mounted simple pickguard. 39 of them were made from 1903-1920. (from Johnston/Boak books).

Here are a few pictures of these. The first one is Eugene's. I think he may still have it. The second is very odd with a strange unique peghead. I am not sure whatthe story is on that one.

It is a very appealing mandolin. Simple but well made for playing.

BTW the book referenced above corroborates my sometime memory that style 5 was the fanciest production mandolin and all those higher were custom orders. All the pearl work was sent out to outside artisans for these super fancy ones.

"It was an unusual Martin bowlback called a style 6a, made for Joseph Handley of Lowell, MA"

I had a 1920 Martin Style 2 bowlback that Mr. J.A. Handley ordered from Martin. A bit of info about Mr. Handley:

Joseph A. Handley, who collaborated with Martin on the development of the Style 6A*, which never appeared in Martin catalogs. Handley worked as a music teacher in Lowell and Southborough, Massachusetts, in the first half of the 20th century. Handley’s family moved when he was a young boy from New Hampshire to Lowell, where his father worked as a machinist. In 1880, Handley worked in a bobbin shop at age 11, when his father became disabled, while his siblings worked as a mule spinner, in a variety store, in a cotton mill, and in a carpet mill, reflecting Lowell’s employment opportunities in the textile trade.
* The Martin 6A was delivered to F. G. C. Printed on paper label with gold border affixed to inside of bowl: FROM / J.A. HANDLEY / LOWELL, MASS. F. G. C. is inlaid in abalone on the headstock of the Style 6A.

Again consulting Longworth's book, he shows 39 Model 6a mandolins made between 1903 and 1920. Here's what Longworth wrote about these instruments:

There were quite a few style 6a mandolins made. This was evidently a minor variation of the model that was not cataloged. These were made primarily for Joseph A. Handley of Lowell, Massachusetts who is known to have suggested the move of the pickguard to the side from its old position between the bridge and the soundhole. This was the variation that caused the style 6a.

Pardon my redundancy with the above two posts. It was quite common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for Martin to build special model instruments for individual dealers, teachers, or even well-known musicians. Different from the "tribute" models they've built in latter years -- guitars designed or ornamented to honor well-known players, from the Car Guys to Joan Baez.

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Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Again consulting Longworth's book, he shows 39 Model 6a mandolins made between 1903 and 1920. Here's what Longworth wrote about these instruments:

There were quite a few style 6a mandolins made. This was evidently a minor variation of the model that was not cataloged. These were made primarily for Joseph A. Handley of Lowell, Massachusetts who is known to have suggested the move of the pickguard to the side from its old position between the bridge and the soundhole. This was the variation that caused the style 6a.

Pardon my redundancy with the above two posts. It was quite common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for Martin to build special model instruments for individual dealers, teachers, or even well-known musicians. Different from the "tribute" models they've built in latter years -- guitars designed or ornamented to honor well-known players, from the Car Guys to Joan Baez.

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Allen: all the information from the excellent Longworth book (which I also own) was incorporated into the two volume Martin Guitar set by Richard Johnston & Dick Boak, published in 2008/9. That where the info I quoted came from in my post above.

Hmm. Lowell, Massachusetts isn't terribly far from where I found this mandolin in New Hampshire. It has been here in a family's possession for a while. 22 years between these instruments. My imagination wants to paint a story where Handley, whose family moved from NH, at some point saw this mandolin and said to himself "Someday I'm going to have one like that!" Then became successful and treated himself to his mandolin desire.

Of course it's probably not even close to the truth. But this is just one aspect of the allure of these old pieces. The stories behind them. Many of my best friends play. The same for most reading this. The people who played these old treasures back then are quite likely to be people we would be friends with if we met them.

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Originally Posted by GoingHome

...In 1880, Handley worked in a bobbin shop at age 11, when his father became disabled, while his siblings worked as a mule spinner, in a variety store, in a cotton mill, and in a carpet mill, reflecting Lowell’s employment opportunities in the textile trade.

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Or the dangers working therein.

Wonderful to know that JA Handley made it through his time in the mills with his hands and fingers intact and become a bonafide enough mandolinist to order his own models.

Mick

Hey you learn something new every day. I didn’t know what a mule spinner was: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_mule

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Originally Posted by Jim Garber

Hey you learn something new every day. I didn’t know what a mule spinner was: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_mule

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And yet we all are familiar with Monroe's Mule Spinner Blues, right?

Or did I get that wrong...?

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Originally Posted by allenhopkins

And yet we all are familiar with Monroe's Mule Spinner Blues, right?

Or did I get that wrong...?

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Such a great image of a mule spinning.... I guess first cousin to cow tipping?

I read "Empire of Cotton" last winter.

NMC of course, but a lot of information on the development of spinning technologies, industrialization, slave economies, 18th and 19th industrial and plantation working conditions.

Hair raising, of course.

As expected, more than a few sacred cows are led to the bbq.

Highly recommended.


Mick

Well thanks everyone for your input. I was able to trade it for a 1946 Gibson LG-2 and a some $$. Which made me quite happy as it went to capable hands, and the work the Gibson needs is well within my skill set. I've already begun its restoration.

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Glad you made a good trade. I saw that your NH craigslist post was gone, and was wondering what kind of a deal you'd made.

Congratulations on the nice LG-2. But dust off your deep throat clamps and brace jacks; the odds are pretty good that you will find at least 2 or 3 loose glue joints inside, maybe more. It comes with the territory with Gibson flat tops from this era. A fellow repairman once quipped that during this period, Gibson had a foreman who "started the day's shift by sprinkling a little glue into the water-pot."

It should be worth it, though-- these are usually quite good instruments once they've been tightened up.

That sounds like a very good deal. 1940s Gibsons and Martins prices are going quite high these days. I sold a 48 LG2 last year and I see the same guitar is offered for considerably more. To get that guitar and cash you did great.

I was faced with a similar problem but with a Salsedo; I did get it in playing condition albeit with all the decoration on the neck gone.
I think you will find that there is not a fretboard as such but rather a thin veneer between the frets, in stripping the neck you will end up with a jigsaw of multiple thin bits of wood and decoration. Personally I'd leave well alone and admire it for the fantastic workmanship, fully repaired, at lord knows what cost might leave you with a mandolin that doesn't sound that good anyway.

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Originally Posted by B.Covey

Attachment 202486

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Nice score on the LG-2! I believe Bruce Springsteen records with one.

Now on eBay at $3,500:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17540586884...emCondition=10

Just finished the work on the LG-2. 15 braces reglued, 9 cracks, neck reset and more. It is a fantastic sounding and playing guitar, I couldn't be more happy with the trade!

The mandolin was beyond my skills, but the guitar was a fun and satisfying challenge to repair. Though one brace took me 6 hours to get right. Always a little detail would require cleanup and starting over. But then I discovered a dollar store kid's super sized pencil eraser that proved to be the perfect brace clamp! Took 5 minutes to get the brace clamped and in position after that. The right tools.. Anyways, hope Indie Music moves the mandolin, they are great guys!

Oh yeah, and certainly Gibson had real trouble with their glue on this guitar. Perhaps in 1946 they were scraping the bottom of the barrel after the war. A few braces had odd grain runout as well. Trying to pump them out for the returning G.I.'s who were sick of war and ready to play!

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Originally Posted by B.Covey

Just finished the work on the LG-2. 15 braces reglued, 9 cracks, neck reset and more. It is a fantastic sounding and playing guitar, I couldn't be more happy with the trade!

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They are great sounding guitars! This reminded me of a late 40's J-45 I repaired a few years ago. Similar to yours, every inside brace had come loose, but somehow the guitar didn't implode in the process. Many of the braces showed the original glue was used quite sparingly. It was the customer's grandfather's guitar and they wanted it made playable again. The finish was still good, so after a lot of thinking and planning, I decided to repair the braces through the soundhole rather than taking the back off. It was a long, but fun process using a combination of jacks, clamps, and homemade purpose-built cauls and more than a little luck. A bonus was after the bracing was restored, the guitar didn't require a neck reset. So the customer ended up with an original finish guitar that hopefully will be around another 60-70 years. :cool:

Thanks for the pencil eraser tip! :mandosmiley:

Through the hole is the way to go!:grin: