Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Also, to learn jazz, you’ve got to know the blues.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavidKOS
I firmly believe you cannot play bop well unless you can play swing.
You cannot play swing well unless you can play trad (aka "Dixieland") jazz.
And you cannot play trad unless you can play the blues and ragtime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Lewis
Also, to learn jazz, you’ve got to know the blues.
As you see, you agree with me on this.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavidKOS
As you see, you agree with me on this.
Seems so. :)
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Maybe, but just two guys opinions.
Ymmv
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
To you all who participated in this great thread, many thanks. It about makes me want to cry for my drums. I love jazz more than anything in music.
* oh and I did want to remember John Abecrombie whose records I collected because Pete Erskine was on them, and Towner, et al. But other cats have passed too, if I could but remember who..
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bill McCall
Maybe, but just two guys opinions.
Ymmv
One of which is a native New Orleans jazz musician, which makes it his folk music.
And like other things, we all have opinions.
The other opinion would be something like "you don't have to know how to play blues to play jazz".
Tell that to Armstrong, ellington, Basie, Parker, Coltrane, Davis, etc.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
We need to distinguish jazz blues from delta and Chicago blues. Jazz blues is jazz on a 12-bar blues chord progression. “St. Louis Blues” does not share much with “Born Under a Bad Sign”. What is shared are the melodic elements, which, to my ears, are the easy riffs one can do on guitar. Those are present in all popular music, including jazz. But jazz also uses Jelly Roll Morton piano figures, and Dixieland rhythms, and show-tune harmonies.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
[QUOTE=DavidKOS;1740255..........And like other things, we all have opinions.
The other opinion would be something like "you don't have to know how to play blues to play jazz".......[/QUOTE]
No, another opinion is 'don't confuse the historic origins of the music with the development path of all modern players.'
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Following up on what Mr Wright said about distinguishing Jazz Blues from delta to Chicago Blues, I don't think the distance is Always that far. Most of the early big name Chicago guys, Muddy & Wolf, came from the Delta Blues & their Music took an Uptown turn once they reached Chicago. Muddy was almost exclusively a slide player until me met Blue Smitty & learned a citified approach. Guitar players such as Louis Meyers & Robert Lockwood, in their backing of Harp player Little Walter, certainly borrowed chord extensions & voices they shared with Jazz players. Even some early Buddy Guy, you'll hear some Grant Green & Burrel borrowings. I heard Sammy Lawhorn (& got to jam with him) use similar chord ideas, even ending a tune with a major 7th. Wayne Bennet backed up Bobby Bland & was a quite sophisticated player. I got to hear him back up Bobby once in Chicago in a rare reunion. He was very tasty.
When ever I heard B.B. live, I would pay attention to what ever rhythm guitar (or Piano) player would play behind him. Again, very tasty.
There may be artificial walls between Jazz & Blues, but there are cracks in those walls. Ever hear Chuck Berry play St. Louis Blues? Quite fun.
Joe B
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
That looks like good material. There's some other resources i like, https://www.jazzadvice.com/ and Jens Larsen's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/jenslarsen02/videos. And Dix Bruce's swing jazz tab books (for mando, guitar, violin)
This was a good recent thread, enough people have mentioned Barry Harris that i think i will commit some time to the method https://mandolincafe.com/forum/threa...69-Improvising
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom Morse
Harder to find, but they’re out there are Homer and Jethro’s “Playing It Straight” and “It Ain’t Necessarily Square.”
These amazing recordings were re-issued on a single CD a few years back, and Elderly Instruments has been carrying them since then.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom Wright
We need to distinguish jazz blues from delta and Chicago blues. Jazz blues is jazz on a 12-bar blues chord progression. “St. Louis Blues” does not share much with “Born Under a Bad Sign”. .
Jazz blues seems to be somewhat older...like 20's:
http://www.midnightflyerblues.com/fi...recordings.htm
http://www.midnightflyerblues.com/crazyblues.jpg
https://www.earlyblues.com/chronolog..._on_record.htm
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bill McCall
No, another opinion is 'don't confuse the historic origins of the music with the development path of all modern players.'
Indeed it is.
Another opinion is "modern players that do not include blues, "Trad" (Dixieland) and swing into their understanding of 'modern' jazz are not really playing jazz but some other form of improvised music".
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavidKOS
Indeed it is.
Another opinion is "modern players that do not include blues, "Trad" (Dixieland) and swing into their understanding of 'modern' jazz are not really playing jazz but some other form of improvised music".
Are these quotation marks around a David quote? Or from someone else?
In any event, I think this sounds like a very reasonable position to take.
And a sentiment which I will likely quote myself! ;)
Mick
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
An example of breaking the boundaries, check out Allen Toussaint’s Bright Mississippi album. I’m sure my buddy, David from New Orleans, will appreciate this. Mr Toussaint recorded this album, the title track is a Monk tune based on the chords of Sweet Georgia Brown, of early trad, Jelly Roll, & Duke tunes. Appearing on the album were Don Byron, Nicholas Payton, Joshua Redman, Brad Mehldau, & others. A wonderful recording. I heard him at play it with some of the same players at Chicago’s Symphony Ctr, on his birthday. A most enjoyable evening.
So he have a New Orleans R&B piano man, playing “trad” Jazz/Blues, with “modern” Jazz Musicians. & it worked beautifully.
Joe B
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brunello97
Are these quotation marks around a David quote? Or from someone else?
In any event, I think this sounds like a very reasonable position to take.
And a sentiment which I will likely quote myself! ;)
Mick
I admit to it being one of mine.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavidKOS
I admit to it being one of mine.
I like it! Thanks....
Mick
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
As, I think one of the two guys who have an opinion, I am a musicologist and historian who has taught 19, 20 and 21st century vernacular music at universities. My opinion might not be worth much, but others seemed to think it has value, even if limited value.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mandopops
An example of breaking the boundaries, check out Allen Toussaint’s Bright Mississippi album. I’m sure my buddy, David from New Orleans, will appreciate this. Mr Toussaint recorded this album, the title track is a Monk tune based on the chords of Sweet Georgia Brown, of early trad, Jelly Roll, & Duke tunes. Appearing on the album were Don Byron, Nicholas Payton, Joshua Redman, Brad Mehldau, & others. A wonderful recording. I heard him at play it with some of the same players at Chicago’s Symphony Ctr, on his birthday. A most enjoyable evening.
So he have a New Orleans R&B piano man, playing “trad” Jazz/Blues, with “modern” Jazz Musicians. & it worked beautifully.
Joe B
A truly remarkable and unique album.
Toussaint's final album, American Tunes, was (I suppose) intended as a follow-up but didn't quite reach the same level.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavidKOS
And you cannot play trad unless you can play the blues and ragtime
I just started playing Pig Ankles, Entertainer and Dill Pickle... [MAS] Thinking about a resonator or banjo mando
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmandu2
Tom, I think moments notice is by Oliver Nelson, IINM.
David, in fact I don't know - only observing (by way of Holland, Mingus, et al) the departure from simandl. But that of course is logical wrt jazz.
Probably nearly all players at that level have studied simandl, and perhaps modified it as needed/personal preferences.
My remark is likely wrong - prbly everyone of that caliber has studied position exercises, simandl, rabbath, whomever... and if not while developing, certainly when entering academia (such as the case with Holland).
Tenor/plectrum banjo. My 5-str playing was always BG, OT, "classic,"...
Holland studied at conservatory. That instrument needs a strong fundamental foundation, or it will hurt you.
I like to transpose solos I like. It’s not just gaining vocabulary, it training your “insides” too. Those have to be educated just like your chops. Rarely do I sit down and write out the solo, but just play it along with the soloist. If I can’t figure out how the solo relates to the harmony, then I will write it out. Lately, Been going through Leo Parker’s recorded output. Man that’s good stuff! Occasionally will look at a Pepper Adams solo. That’s a challenge! there’s something about the baritone players.
Re: Want to learn Jazz mandolin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mandopops
An example of breaking the boundaries, check out Allen Toussaint’s Bright Mississippi album. I’m sure my buddy, David from New Orleans, will appreciate this. Mr Toussaint recorded this album, the title track is a Monk tune based on the chords of Sweet Georgia Brown, of early trad, Jelly Roll, & Duke tunes. Appearing on the album were Don Byron, Nicholas Payton, Joshua Redman, Brad Mehldau, & others. A wonderful recording. I heard him at play it with some of the same players at Chicago’s Symphony Ctr, on his birthday. A most enjoyable evening.
So he have a New Orleans R&B piano man, playing “trad” Jazz/Blues, with “modern” Jazz Musicians. & it worked beautifully.
Joe B
Great album...don't forget guitarist's Marc Ribot's contributions