Help me use this diminished lick

I am working on a chord melody, and there is a nice diminished lick in it. I need help with using it in another context.

The lick is pretty simple. One chord shape that moves up three frets, and then three frets again. Diminished!

The chord is an F on the D string (3). The D on the A string (5). And the A flat on the E string (4). Again move this shape up three frets. Three more, and then back if you like.

2 questions. What is the root note of this chord shape? What chords could you use this lick over?

The genre is gypsy jazz btw. Thanks for any help with this!

Any note is a root. The 4th tone would be B. D, F, Ab, B are the 4 tones, all a minor third apart.

I believe you could use it over Bb7, Db7, E7 or G7.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andyesquire

... F on the D string (3). The D on the A string (5). And the A flat on the E string (4)...

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Well I'm no expert but... so you've got x-3-5-4...

Looks like a simplified version of either:

• 1-3-5-4, which is one of several ways to play Ddim (D F Ab). No 7. Root D.
  
  
• 4-3-5-4, which would make it a Ddim7 (D F Ab B) instead, in which case I think it would be like Bill says below:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill McCall

Any note is a root. The 4th tone would be B. D, F, Ab, B are the 4 tones, all a minor third apart.

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Looks that way alright, if one adds the B to make it into dim7: a reverse chord-finder website says that the notes "F D Ab B" are any of the following dim7 chords:

Abdim7
Bdim7
Ddim7
Fdim7

To double-check those chords, since I'm terrible with flat and/or (for me) unusual keys, ~:> :redface: I use a different website where you type in chord names and it gives you the letters/notes:

Abdim7 = Ab B D F
Bdim7 = B D F Ab
Ddim7 = D F Ab B
Fdim7 = F Ab B D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill McCall

I believe you could use it over Bb7, Db7, E7 or G7.

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I'm not sure :confused: but here are the notes in those chords... they look different:

Bb7 = Bb D F Ab
Db7 = Db F Ab B
E7 = E G# B D
G7 = G B D F

Yes any note in the chord could be the root. Naming it would depend on the context. The key, the chord before and after. Usually the chord before is a half step lower, say for example a E7 (E,Ab,B,D). Then you raise the root note up a half step to F and you have an Fdim7. Then resolve to and A.

The trick of using a dim7 chord over a V7 a half step lower is to create a 7b9 chord:

A7 = A C# E G

Bb dim7 = Bb Db Fb Abb - yes that's the correct spelling, A double flat - enharmonic to Bb C# E G

Played together you get A7b9 = A C# E G Bb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidKOS

Bb dim7 = Bb Db Fb Abb - yes that's the correct spelling, A double flat - enharmonic to Bb C# E G

Played together you get A7b9 = A C# E G Bb

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That is, C#dim7 over an A bass. (Normally someone else in the group will be playing the bass note, since mandolin has only four courses, and no real "bass" notes.)

C#dim7 is a diatonic (scale-based) chord in the key of D minor, and easily used as a dominant in D major for a little chromatic colour.

The Bb dim7 spelling suits Gb7b9, a useful substitute if you're playing in the key of C flat!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen

That is, C#dim7 over an A bass. (Normally someone else in the group will be playing the bass note, since mandolin has only four courses, and no real "bass" notes.)

C#dim7 is a diatonic (scale-based) chord in the key of D minor, and easily used as a dominant in D major for a little chromatic colour.

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C#dim7 is not diatonic in D minor, since there is no C# in the key signature. But, C# is usually found in D minor as the raised leading tone. It is what makes harmonic minor.

Right, the chords of a minor key are based on the harmonic minor scale.

Another context? It's what's normally played -on piano- in the old black & white pre-talkies, just as Snidely Whiplash is tying Liza Belle to the railroad tracks, with a steam locomotive fast approaching from the distance!

Or you could just listen to The Beatles' mid-'60s revival of the (even THEN old) "'Til There Was You". Granted that it's on guitar, but Mr. Harrison nicely moves the series of diminished 7th chords (for my money, the SAME diminished chord) on up the neck 3 frets at a time.

While I've had relatively little (read that "absolutely no") formal music education, I still find it amazing how much can be learned just because someone had pointed out such details along the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EdHanrahan

Another context? It's what's normally played -on piano- in the old black & white pre-talkies, just as Snidely Whiplash is tying Liza Belle to the railroad tracks, with a steam locomotive fast approaching from the distance!

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And on old 45's as well. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFyr49TwuiI

(FWIW, I'm pretty sure it's Mr. Lennon doing the three-fret slide in Till There Was You, on rhythm guitar in the second bar of the A section each time.)

Thanks everyone for this great discussion! Very helpful.

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I had to run out of the theater. The train was coming right at me!!

I taught "classical" music theory for years. When Tim Connel told me to use a "flat-ninth-without-root instead of a V7" I didn't know what he was talking about (I do now). The "root" is implied in these chords, but in 19th Century based classical theory you have to call it and decide which note is root. I tried your progression and it sounds cool! Added some Jesse McReynolds cross picking for even more scary fun.