I don't like F styles. Anyone else?

So, over the summer I was privileged to go to a small bluegrass camp in Nashville, where I got to play a lot of awesome instruments.
Now, I've always thought F mandolins look the best, although I do really like the looks of an A, but until camp I had only about 5 minutes of time spent playing an F.
During one of the mandolin classes at camp, I got to play a TKD Eagle F5 that another student had brought, and I discovered that I don't like F5s or tone guards. The tone guard was extremely uncomfortable, painfully poking my ribs, and the points on the body poked into my legs. Standing up it wasn't so uncomfortable, but sitting down it was very unpleasant. Has anyone else had the same issues?
On the bright side, that discovery will save me a lot of money whenever I decide to upgrade from my KM150....

Peter Ostroushko, while not a critic of F style, definitely favored A style, and was very vocal about that. I own mostly Fs but I also own some As and have had a few over the years. As far as sound and playability the scroll has 0 effect , unless it has something to do with the way you hold it.
I've played some very fine A models and they blow a lot of high end Fs away, its all in the wood and the creation process.

An F looks like it should sound better, and certainly requires more effort on the part of the luthier - my hat is off to those who have the craftsmanship and artistry to carry out an F5 or F4 (or derivative) construction. The geometry of the curl is crucial to the traditional F style, but in the end it is a visual effect and a strap hanger, in my opinion. I've had A's, F's and twin points - based on my playing style and the way my mandolins play & sound, I only have an A5 and two twin point wooden acoustic mandolins at this point in time. Would I pass up an F that gave me the sound I wanted and had a neck that was comfortable to play? Heck no!

I don't like coffee. That's why there are many drinks. Don't like F styles? That's why there are many other choices. Do what you like. This is not meant to be snarky.

The scroll/points are cosmetic...the real issue should be preference for round/oval holes vs F-holes and SONIC in nature.
The Gibson F2s and F4s were oval holes with scrolls and points.

I don’t like vodka martinis. It must be gin. Also, I enjoy F-style mandolins and coffee ;)

I don't like Bruce Springsteen but I've learned to not mention that in my circle of friends.

But this is a wonderful place of discussion. I like A's also.

I bought an A style in the beginning mainly because of the visual effect associated with an F style that wasn't who I wanted to be perceived as, not that anyone would ever see me anyway. I don't jam or even like the word but I do Play my A quite often around the house.

The good news now is that no matter what your preference, it is possible to buy all manner of styles at various prices points. I can recall a time when an F style mandolin was expensive and I dreamed of having one. Having been laid off, I spent a whole heap of the cash I received on a handmade luthier F style mandolin. At the moment, I am playing a Venetian style mandolin but do rotate back to an A and the F style.

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I haven't seen any responses that actually related to my post, I guess it was too long winded.
My question was does anyone else dislike Fs because they are uncomfortable to hold?

As to round versus F hole, I like F holes way better

Would the need (or perceived need) for a tone-guard differ between an A and an F?? I don't use a tone-guard but my understanding is that the purpose is to hold the sound chamber away from the body to prevent muffling?

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Originally Posted by Gunnar

... I discovered that I don't like F5s or tone guards. The tone guard was extremely uncomfortable, painfully poking my ribs, and the points on the body poked into my legs. ...

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But, how did they sound?

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Originally Posted by BoxCarJoe

I don't like Bruce Springsteen but I've learned to not mention that in my circle of friends.

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I have to admit that enjoying Springsteen is a guilty pleasure for me, and not without conflict. I often wonder how a guy worth $500 million bucks can be a spokesperson the the "common man?" But, I guess he wasn't always rich and that's where the talent comes into play -- that he can "play the character" of a working man and make it believable.....something artists do....

Tom Waits, well.........I never understood what he was going for -- obviously he is playing some sort of barfly character, but it never worked for me? But, a lot of people I respect really like his "work." So.......

As far as mandolins go, I like a 2-point.....basically, an A with a couple accents....

I prefer the simplicity and think A-styles look better. YMMV.

I do not dislike F styles but much prefer A styles for reasons of I think more pleasing aesthetics, cost, more ergonomic, fewer protuberances subject to breakage.

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Originally Posted by Gunnar

... dislike Fs because they are uncomfortable to hold?

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Two points (no pun, or accents, intended!):

1 - The first impression of my '90s Flatiron F (twelve years ago) was that, when standing, it was neck-heavy, which I credited to the larger-than-A-style headstock. Didn't like supporting the neck w/ my fretting hand. Then realized that a minimum amount of fretting-wrist pressure on the body kept everything nicely in place, fretting hand included. No problem since.

2 - As for sitting, some report liking the point against their leg to help keep the instrument in place. No strong personal opinion, but I always use a strap regardless.

Thinking back now, several of my favorite jam-session moments involve having the freedom to go from sitting to standing, to maybe sitting elsewhere, without interrupting the flow of music. Thinking a bit further (I'm sorry!), that felt VERY liberating.

While I don't feel strongly about it, I prefer A-style. I find F's less comfortable, but for different reasons than the OP. For me, the mass of the larger head on most F-styles throws off the balance, makes it head-heavy. I also like saving the several hundred bucks that the fancy scrolls would cost me.

What I do feel strongly about is the hole. The mellow sound of my oval hole A-style is much more pleasing to my ears than the comparatively brittle sound of my F-style with F holes.

Jim

Hi Gunnar,
I wouldn't think an F-5 shouldn't be less comfortable to hold standing. Other than the scroll, the back contours are the same. When seated however, the points can dig into your leg depending on how low the instrument hangs on the strap.

The tone guard is a huge help for players who are not skinny like you. It's purpose is to keep the instrument back off the player's belly, freeing it up to resonant fully- big difference in the lower notes and overall projection. You're thin enough that your stomach is not going to deaden the back vibrations.

I don't dislike playing F5s but I do not like building them. That scroll with its 3 dimensional curves is an absolute bear to carve, bind, and finish. For me, it added another 40% in time and effort to the build (thus why they're so much more expensive than an A). They do, however, make a great strap holder! Once I figured out how to drill a small lace hole through the heel (during construction) to hang a strap, I resorted to building A models.

The good news for you is that you can get a really good A model for about 60-70% of the price of a comparable F when you're ready to move up. BTW, Tim O'brien and Joe Walsh agree with you :-)

I have owned several 'A' and two 'F' mandos. My only comment would be that the F doesn't slip or move as much on my lap while seated due to the points. Never have used a tone guard.

I have owed F-style but the only scrolled mandolin that remains is my mandola. I have no problems with the F design in terms of comfort. My main criteria are tone and playability. I have played quite a few Fs that I loved but my current arsenal keeps me satisfied.

I do have a Tone-Gard on my Campanella A-5 but it doesn't bother me much either.

I like A's but do not find F's hard to hold. When you get old you may appreciate a tonegard. A's sound as good as F's and cost less so the Jack Benny (look him up) in me kicks in.

So, you played one rather obscure budget pac-rim F style mando and decided you don't like F styles in general? I got news for you, if you don't like the sound of the F style TKD, you likely won't like the A style either. As mandocrucian pointed out, there are virtually no differences in tone between A and F style mandos. I own an F and an A. Never had any physical pain associated with points on the F, thogh I can see an increased risk of neck dive being inherent to F styles. God knows mine suffers from it.

Never had an issue with Tone Guards. I don't feel they are painful. The one issue I do find is that they can make a mando feel a tad less stable against the body, but it takes very little time to get used to it and the improvement in volume is inarguably noticeable.

Mugger (holding a gun): Your money or your life!
Jack Benny: [Silent]
Mugger: Your money or your life!
Jack Benny: I heard you...I'm just thinking it over.

I don’t like them, I LOVE them!!!!:mandosmiley::grin:;)

I don't find the F style body any harder to hold, in general, than any other mandolin. I play sitting down, and I find the placement of the point and curl on the treble side really help keeping the instrument in its proper place. And on the few occasions I play standing I the body style becomes irrelevant.

When I first started playing mandolin, it was a different time. There wasn't an internet, and the mandolin was not even on the radar where I lived. I figured it out mostly on my own. There was a publication, Mandolin World News, which I devoured every issue. It was in those pages I saw my first F style mandolin.

My first reaction was that I didn't like it. Too fancy, with these irrelevant curly protrusions and the headstock looked like the profile of a nosed guy with a cowlick looking to the right. A few years later I happened to have a girlfriend who had seriously studied art history, and through her I learned of the different artistic trends in the country around the time of the design of the f style body. Art Deco and Art Nuveau and Vienna Succession and while my engineering rational analytical mind really never "got it", I started to love the f body design. I really started to enjoy its grace and style and kind of transgressive in your face decoration. (At the time I also came to appreciate and developed a real fascination for the paintings of Klimt, as anyone who visits my house could attest.)

So, I am not an artist, I am not a conformist, although also careful not to be a radical non-conformist, I try to make up my own mind, my own tastes, based on my own experience and investigations. Oh and heavily influenced by a girlfriend or two. The result is now I really adore the F style body. I won't pay a large premium extra for it, and I won't worship it, but I do love it.

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Originally Posted by Gunnar

I haven't seen any responses that actually related to my post, I guess it was too long winded.
My question was does anyone else dislike Fs because they are uncomfortable to hold?

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Usually, the answer to any "Does anyone else like/dislike ..." is going to be "yes." So, if you find F models to be uncomfortable to hold, you might find it more useful to ask people to explain how they hold an F model so that it is comfortable. For example, Ed Hanrahan described placing the point against your thigh to anchor the mando.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Mando

I have to admit that enjoying Springsteen is a guilty pleasure for me, and not without conflict. I often wonder how a guy worth $500 million bucks can be a spokesperson the the "common man?" But, I guess he wasn't always rich and that's where the talent comes into play -- that he can "play the character" of a working man and make it believable.....something artists do....

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Springsteen discussed the irony of that in his Springsteen on Broadway show. He said that he never worked a day of his life in a factory. I bet that when "The Rangers had a homecoming in Harlem late last night," Springsteen wasn't part of any event like that, but nonetheless, he created a majestic song from that concept.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Mando

Tom Waits, well.........I never understood what he was going for -- obviously he is playing some sort of barfly character, but it never worked for me? But, a lot of people I respect really like his "work." So.......

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Waits lost me around 1980, but he wrote some pretty amazing stuff before that. You might like his first two albums, before he blew out his voice and became the barfly character. My absolute favorite album of his is Small Change, which has some absolutely stunning barfly songs on it, although you have to deal with him singing like Louis Armstrong after a couple of drinks. No mandolin content, of course.

I started a thread about F style mandolin ergonomics asking a somewhat similar question not that long ago and didn’t get many responses. Maybe most people don’t notice much of a difference? It was quite strange for me adapting to an F-style after having only A-styles (and a 2-point).

For me the way the strap hangs off the scroll and the weight of the headstock makes an F-style much different to hold standing up. The headstock kept trending towards a more horizontal position and it would change the pick angle and make my right hand really have to adapt. For brief periods I didn’t notice it much but for the 4 hour gigs, any little change can make a huge impact!

But I’ve adapted because I feel like the sound is so amazing on the F-style I have...

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Originally Posted by Gunnar

...My question was does anyone else dislike Fs because they are uncomfortable to hold?

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Historically speaking Ms. Griffith had an issue with them, thankfully. Otherwise the only A style mandolins might have short necks and round sound holes. Maybe.

I often play standing up, with a strap, and to me F5s feel neck-heavy when used that way, that's my only issue with them aside from cost. Every once in a while I play one that sounds good enough to make me think I could get used to the feel, and one of these days it'll be the right deal at the right time and I will.

I own -- and play -- a 1914 Gibson A, a 1921 Bacon Artist and a 1925 Washburn/Lyon & Healy Style A Professional. I wouldn't trade any for an F.

I have one of each. If an F-style is uncomfortable, you're holding it wrong. Don't push the point into your leg. Let the flat part of the lower point rest on the side of your leg. I have no use for tonegards and can see how they would be uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Gunnar

During one of the mandolin classes at camp, I got to play a TKD Eagle F5 that another student had brought, and I discovered that I don't like F5s or tone guards.

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Wait, you mean to tell me you played one Guys Mandolin once and are now swearing off a whole Mandolin shape!

It took me some time to get used to my F. But just like learning to hold my pick correctly now I can switch between both shapes with ease.

Happy picking!

I've noticed the same thing with Fs, and I've handled some very lovely sounding high end ones. I have a terrible feeling that even a lovely sounding F would, eventually, be something i'd part with. I think getting the balance right would be some of what you'd pay the big bucks for because so many of the mid-price Fs I've played were headstock heavy. it's the first thing I notice when I hold an F, that the balance is different enough to be noticed. I also find that the points don't necessarily work for how i hold the instrument. It puts it in a position that makes me move my hand to accommodate, and I have learned to hold my hands very specifically because of carpal tunnel and arthritis. And since i play sitting down pretty much all the time and don't use a strap, the practical use of the scroll to hold a strap is lost on me. I've seen some absolutely spectacular F-style mandolins but have frankly never felt any desire to own one. my 2 cents

I also have one of each. I love the aesthetics of both. One has the flourish, one the simplicity. Both are high-quality mandos, with different sounds, but that is the result of the way they are made, not the outline of the body/headstock.

I love the point on the lower side of the F, as it rests against the inside of my right thigh and helps anchor the instrument.

I had a Tone-Gard on a previous F mandolin, an older mahogany-backed weber Bitterroot. It helped with the tone and volume, and didn't take much getting used to. The main thing with that was the difference in overall weight. Neither of my current mandos have (or need, IMO) a Tone-Gard.

In a similar sense, I had to warm up to a pickguard, both visually and functionally. My previous F didn't have one, but both of my current instruments do.

Purely based on appearance I prefer F styles. BUT...
Not at twice the cost.
I was totally converted to A's when I got my Pava.
Now I have to decide if the next upgrade is an Ellis A, or a Pava F.
I still keep an Eastman 515 F that I use to avoid shocking people at Bluegrass jams.
I also think the prettiest mandolin ever made was the reddish colored F4's from the 1920's, but I don't want to play one.

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Originally Posted by mandocrucian

The scroll/points are cosmetic...the real issue should be preference for round/oval holes vs F-holes and SONIC in nature.
The Gibson F2s and F4s were oval holes with scrolls and points.

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And they are the coolest looking mandolins with scrolls in my opinions.

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Originally Posted by Alex Orr

So, you played one rather obscure budget pac-rim F style mando and decided you don't like F styles in general? I got news for you, if you don't like the sound of the F style TKD, you likely won't like the A style either.

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You obviously didn't read my post. I actually liked the tone and playability a lot! I played several other F styles (including Northfield, Weber, Gibson, and others) almost all of which sounded awesome.
My complaint was that they were uncomfortable to sit down and play. The neck tended to fall more seated than standing, and it was too sharp and pointy (that goes for all of them)

I know lots of people like the points to keep the neck angle, but I couldn't find any way to prop the instrument up at any comfortable angle. And I found that the F styles slipped in my lap worse than any A styles I've played

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Originally Posted by sgarrity

I have one of each. If an F-style is uncomfortable, you're holding it wrong. Don't push the point into your leg. Let the flat part of the lower point rest on the side of your leg. I have no use for tonegards and can see how they would be uncomfortable.

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I tried to do that, but it either resulted in the neck being too horizontal, or angled too far out from my body. Standing up I had no problems.

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Originally Posted by Zach Wilson

Wait, you mean to tell me you played one Guys Mandolin once and are now swearing off a whole Mandolin shape!

It took me some time to get used to my F. But just like learning to hold my pick correctly now I can switch between both shapes with ease.

Happy picking!

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Not at all! First off, I don't swear.....
But seriously, I played several F styles, and had no problems while standing up. Several of them sounded amazing. I dislike how they all behaved sitting down, and A styles are cheaper, so I'm not complaining about it.
Still, if I came across an F that I loved for a price I'm willing to pay, I would buy it.

This isn't the first time I've heard someone mention that the point digs into their leg and is uncomfortable, and I just can wrap my head around that. Does it weigh 20lbs? But, I also rest the point against my leg and not on it.