A couple of position questions - trying to unlock the fretboard..

I have two questions:

1) If I play a descending pentatonic scale starting from 5th fret on the D string (G), what fingers should I use on the G string (for 6th, 5th, 3rd)? I've been using ring, middle, index and feel like I should be using my pinky instead of a big stretch.

2) I've been studying the FFcP material on jazzmando. I fully understand close scales and starting with each finger but it seems like an unnecessary number of choices. I've been practicing transitioning between index-on-root and ring-on-root fingers and transitioning between the two. Isn't that more sensible than working on all 4 fingers? It seems like I can learn half the patterns but still move around the fretboard easily.

Cheers

If you begin a descending G pentatonic with index on root, you are using the 2nd finger on root Ffcp. If you begin the same scale with the 2nd finger on the root, you're using the 3rd finger on root Ffcp which requires you to use your 4th finger on the 6th tone.

The pentatonic scale moves by major seconds and minor thirds. When going up or down a second, use (as always) the next finger. When going up or down a third, skip (as always) one finger.

Or change positions, or change strings.;)

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Originally Posted by dadsaster

I've been studying the FFcP material on jazzmando. I fully understand close scales and starting with each finger but it seems like an unnecessary number of choices. I've been practicing transitioning between index-on-root and ring-on-root fingers and transitioning between the two. Isn't that more sensible than working on all 4 fingers? It seems like I can learn half the patterns but still move around the fretboard easily.

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You absolutely have permission to push things as much or as little as you desire.

There are several goals towards which the Eschliman material is intended, including mastery of the modes, pinky strength, finger control and sustain.

So, with that in mind, if you ever wind up starting a scale in Locrian or Mixolydian, using your index or ring finger, you'll still be using those fingering patterns which you rejected for Ionian mode.

There's a certain irony in "trying to unlock the fretboard" while attempting to avoid actually putting in the effort to do so, don't you think?

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Just as a suggestion, a painless way to really get those exercises into muscle memory is to play them with a quiet metronome while watching TV or a movie. Once I can play a few octaves of a certain scale and mode perfectly (absolutely *no* mistakes) when working slowly, I will work those scales and modes for Ab and A starting on the index, then Bb and B starting on the middle, C and C# on ring, and D and D# starting on the pinky. I slide up at the end of the two octave patterns when necessary, and work the patterns with various picking exercises as well.

Good luck!

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I fully understand close scales and starting with each finger but it seems like an unnecessary number of choices.

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There are only four patterns. That does not seem like a dizzying array of choices.

Seriously once you see how they connect and cycle through over the fretboard there is a certain symmetry and logic to them that you would lose with half of them. That shows itself when you do the two octave connected scales.

As answers come in I'm more confused. My assumption was learning the 4 basic patterns only helps me learn a major scale. There are 4 (slightly) different patterns for minor and for any other scale or mode one might use. So I don't see it as 4 patterns and being lazy but as more than 40 patterns and wondering where to best invest my time. Is this actually wrong?

Do professionals (or really good players) actually use this system? Whenever I transcribe a lick or tune of a player I like, they don't seem to be using scales or licks based on where a finger lands, but will slide to their preferred finger (index or ring seem the most common). I still feel like I'm missing something.

You can play the ffcp patterns for the modes without changing anything except the starting figure for the major scale. Change of thinking but not mechanical. You will need to change fingering for minors or diminished scales.

Can’t comment as a pro or ‘really good player’, but folks seem to use what works for them and ignore lots of ‘rules’.

Ymmv

There are really only four ffcp patterns. There is kind of a cool symmetry and flow to them once you figure them out. As Bill said the natural minor and other modes only require a shift in the starting point. The pattern is the same. The other cool thing is that there really is only one pattern and they all flow together and shift around, morphing into one another depending on where you are at on the fretboard. Once they are understood they really do simplify the fretboard.

Some people's minds do work differently and it may not be clear to them. It takes a little messing around to see the whole picture. As I mentioned before, the two octave scales where the patterns are connected brought it into focus for me. Also once I had the two octave patterns memorized I extended them down below the starting point which showed how they all connect together and keep repeating. Another way of looking at it is four single string patterns that repeat in a particular sequence if that makes any sense to you.

Andy Hatfield taught about them at Kaufmann Kamp so I know he recommends them. I have seen substantially the same set of patterns in at least one mandolin method book.

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Originally Posted by dadsaster

Do professionals (or really good players) actually use this system?

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It's not a system that can be used or rejected – it's a way of stating the obvious: Because (a) the major scale is asymmetrical, and (b) ya got four fingers, then a+b= you're going to get four different fretboard patterns if you start a major scale on four different fingers.
If a pro plays something diatonic somewhere up the fretboard, then ya, he or she is using one of the ffcp patterns, but that's only because those patterns have been in existence since baroque violinists started wandering up the neck – he can't help but "use this system".

I'm not knocking it – it's been, for many folks here, an invaluable introduction to understanding and exploring the above "obvious", but, being a set of patterns instead of actual notes, you're still not going to learn where an E on the G-string is, and until you do (for Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A# x G- D- A- E-string), the fretboard won't be fully unlocked for you.

I found that the road map pattern system of FFcP for beginners is great. It’s a bit like looking down on a city at night and seeing all the relative distances, positions, and directions.

Great, but I’d agree that at some point you are going to have to learn where to find all the locations of a specifically named note.
The reason is that while you are sliding all over the fretboard you will make a mistake and suddenly wonder if you should be on the 11th fret or 12th. Basically you accidentally shift up or down a key. Also, sooner or later you’re going to want to change keys in mid song, and know that, for example, all F’s now are F#’s.

The liberating moment for me was being able to jump a string and then move up or down that next string by one note, moving from a first finger scale to a second finger scale, and make the change without realising it -because I’d already practised it slowly and methodically with all the permutations (including the little finger)