Honestly I have found it easier to memorise, both in my head and hands, Bach's Cello Suite 1 Prelude than I'm finding memorising most beginner/intermediate fiddle and bluegrass tunes. They're like tongue twisters for the fingers, the lines and runs are so similar with slight variations, my fingers get confused so easily. I know the answer is to take it nice and slow without mistakes and then speed it up, but....
My old boss used to tell me: "Zito, you would forget your butt if it wasn't glued on you!" Needless to say, I am not good at 'memorizing' ANYTHING - but I have found that there are certain songs/songwriters who write and construct chord structures in much the way that my natural musical thought process goes - so it is far easier for me to remember those songs, than others that fall outside of my particular 'style'. I can generally do pretty well at remembering cover songs, IF I play them very regularly - but if I fall away from them for too long, I would need to learn them, from scratch, all over again.
I have a terrible time memorizing tunes. I am hoping that will improve as I develop a better "ear". I think I have seen some improvement in that regard over the last year or so. Learning tunes in "chunks" certainly helps.
im to the point i cant even remember all the things ive forgotten. If i dont play a tune every two or 3 days i forget half of it at least till i run through it a time or 2. hardest part is rememberin which ones im about to forget half of and playing them so i dont!
Lol. I'm with you fellers. A line from 'Oh Brother, Where Art Thou' I have to complicate it by learning different versions of the same tune.
I'm not doing well memorizing anything either. For the things I have played often, they feel like are almost there if I have the music in front of me, but if the music isn't visible it's hopeless.
Do you think memorizing is important? I had planned to memorize Harvest Home, but finally decided I'd rather spend the time working on playing tunes from the written music, practicing chords, etc.
Louise, even a few measures? If you want to play from memory, try a few measures at a time. Slowly sew sections together. Sure, you'll fail; one big reason we musicians loathe to learn a new skill is because we don't want to suck at it for a long while. It's hard for me to learn a new tune, or a new section. I often have to struggle for awhile to get it. I imagine if I were a great sight reader the temptation would be too great to just sight read the piece. Also, there are a whole lot of pieces that I only know 20 or 40 measures of, and been stuck there for over a year, because I don't feel like buckling down to get the rest of them yet. It is some work, but rewarding when you've got it. I can play about 20 measures of Bach's Invention No. 4 in Dm, and about 40 of Bach's Double from ??? but haven't been motivated to do anymore with them yet because it's a hard thing to do. Maybe you could learn a few measures at a time, be willing to fail, and try, try again. You'll have to read the section, then play it without the music, and persist in this no matter how difficult or how many times you get it wrong -until you get it right. Sherry, "Do you think memorizing is important?" - Only if it's a skill you want. It's not a necessary skill. Playing a musical instrument at all is not a necessary thing; most people don't play musical instruments. How and what you play is your own choice. So the skill of playing without a sheet is only important if it's something you want to do.
I just checked the sheet, Bach's double in D has ten measures to a repeat; that's all I've memorized of it, so I play only 20 measures of that one (10 measures repeated). There's a song I play often in practice and have made more than one video of it, titled Poor Richard's Blues. On that song, I struggled along until I had learned about half of it. After that, I couldn't force myself to learn the rest. It was over a year before I was motivated to go through the process of learning the second half! But I find that the more I do these things, the less pain is involved in learning new ones.
Mark, I appreciate that you didn't beat me up over choosing not to memorize. There's so much I want to improve upon right now. Maybe down the road I'll want to work memorization into my practicing.
I sometimes wonder why I spend so much time memorizing these tunes of the month, just to have them slip away into the haze within only a couple of months. Memorizing, for me, is hard and certainly not as much fun as exploring a new tune (or revisiting an old one) from a written score. And it does cut into the time I could use for developing technical skills. After contemplation, the answer I usually come up with is that what I really want is to be able to make the tune come from within myself instead of from the printed page. Memorization is not really the solution to that end, but I think it is a step, at least for a beginner like me. But I want to get to the stage where if I can hear the tune in my head, I can make it come out of my fingers -- to the extent that my technical abilities will allow, anyway. And at some level, you do have to 'memorize' the tune. Not the written notes, but how the tune 'goes'. Then making it come out of your fingers is a different problem -- one that you face regardless of whether it is coming from your memory or from the printed page. Sorry for the ramble. I guess I am memorizing some tunes because I think it is something that will help me progress toward where I personally want to be. Sort of like practicing scales and fingerbuster exercises. Or eating kale.
My 2 cents. My background is trombone in bands and guitar at church. Both of these were pretty much read whats on the printed page. To brag a little I'm pretty good sight reader. But what I am discovering after having made the effort to memorize 12 or so of these tunes of the month, is that having memorized them I am finding it easier to embellish them. In fact as I work Cherokee Shuffle I have found a couple of spots where my fingers just automatically convert a quarter note into an eighth note run. Thinking back to college marching band, we first memorized the music as written, then as a section worked out how we were going to play it.
I'm coming from no musical background save a very brief stint in our grade school band with trombone eons ago. I can't read standard notation and struggle with tab. Once I have a song memorized I can work on technique and speed (relatively speaking). Kevin's post above was quite timely as I had a similar experience recently while trying to improvise, my fingers found a pattern that sounded good which I'm sure came from one of the fiddle tunes I had committed to memory.
I agree memorizing is a challenge. I am totally unable to memorize the words to a song. I have a terrible time with chord changes. A chart or lead sheet seems like a must. But mandolin melodies and finger picking on guitar seems much easier to me. I think our brains are all wired up a little different. One trick a friend taught me when I first started on guitar is to sing / hum / whistle the phrases we are trying to learn. It helps me a lot when I find a phrase difficult. Singing or humming these melodies when at work or some place besides the practice room helps me get them in my brain.
I've always approached memorizing music by breaking the song up into musical sentences or phrases. Memorize the phrase then memorize where that phrase fits in the song. I have mentioned this other places in the forums, I cannot memorize the notes as I see them on the page although several said they can mentally recall the printed page and play from that mental image, that is not how I'm wired.
Sherry wrote, "Mark, I appreciate that you didn't beat me up over choosing not to memorize." No problem Sherry, I have no axe to grind. The only times I've gotten cross in the forums is when I think someone's being unfair or misleading to others, or disparaging my ideas. I don't have all the answers, or any special knowledge. One thing I know is that everyone has a right to play what they want and study what they want - and if I can help in any way by introducing ideas, I'm apt to try and do that. You're doing great, keep on picking!
Kevin wrote, "I've always approached memorizing music by breaking the song up into musical sentences or phrases." I do the same thing, Kevin. It's pretty hard most times learning fiddle tunes and such on the mandolin. Most of them I don't know because it's new music to me. I've been doing that all my life with tunes I know and like though. I started at about 12 years old learning (figuring out chords and memorizing lyrics) all kinds of songs and I would perform them for anyone who'd listen. I'm 62 now - that was all on guitar. Mandolin music is new to me, and very challenging. I have to play phrases over and over to get them down before moving to the next phrase. If I'm interested enough, I stick with it until I have the whole song. Then I have to play the whole song over and over and over again to get it down. Some of the tunes stay with me, and others float away into the ether after a month or so. One thing I've done that helps is to create a binder just for newbie tune of the month, so all those sheets are in one place - and I find (or create) a backing track for each one at strummachine.com - that way I can put them in the practice routine at any time, and if I've forgotten one or more, I pull out the binder.
Mark, are you saying playing guitar is easier than mandolin? Is it too late to switch? (I can't decide if I'm kidding or serious!)
No Sherrie, I definitely do not believe playing guitar is easier than mandolin. There is a lot that would be harder about guitar. I can't say it was easy learning to play guitar. I remember as a kid practicing with my fingers screaming in pain, training them to contort to make clean-sounding chords, training them to move smoothly in time through a chord progression. Later, learning about great rhythm by watching Richie Havens at Woodstock. And so much other stuff to learn through the years. I spent the last five years working on finger picking skills. I find mandolin just as difficult. I already know what it takes to move between chords, and I already know how to practice clean hammer-ons, pull-offs, etc., but setting out to learn and master as well as possible a new instrument is extremely difficult. The grass is not greener over yonder - if you love the mandolin, stick with it. Getting good on any instrument is hard. That may be the main reason why so few people play musical instruments.
Good - and even not so good - musicians make it look so easy. Boy, do I have a great respect in my short journey.
Sherry, I'm with you on this one. Practice time is precious, I read fluently, and I would rather spend what time I can give the mandolin working out some basic skills than committing tunes to memory. Maybe this will change with time. Getting skills such as scales in broken thirds or so-called folded scales in my hands and my muscle memory may be a form of memorization. Don't know. Mark, yes, I can memorize a few measures, usually even the basic "shape" of the piece, but the details escape me. If I know a song, I can figure out how to play it pretty easily. The mandolin repertoire I'm working on is not already familiar to me, though. I am learning repertoire by reading, rather than using, for instance, one of the online methods like MandoLessons where everything is taught by ear and by watching. This probably inhibits memorization. As Mandoweather points out, if you don't read either notation or tab well, memorizing the piece is a necessary first step to really polishing it. For those of us able to "cheat" I have mixed feelings about the necessity of memorization. I certainly had to do plenty of it as a kid—solo and recital pieces always had to be played from memory. Like many things, children excel at things that adults stumble over! Thinking about concerts I have been to, I've never seen a folk musician, rock 'n' roller, blues, or bluegrass band use much more than a set list. Chamber music ensembles always use music, classical soloists vary. (I've actually seen more and more soloists using music in recent years.) Certain conductors lead entire 45-minute symphonies without a score. Accomplishment, or party trick? I'm not entirely sure. Is one way of learning better than another? Not sure. Does it come down to different neurological wiring? Probably. Am I cheating myself by not committing tunes to memory? Don't know. Friends and coworkers are regularly surprised by the load of crap I can retrieve from my memory, and you do want me on your team for pub trivia night. Maybe my brain is just full already.
<clapping hands icon> "I'll play! I wanna play!" Is one way of learning better than another? I sincerely doubt it. Does it come down to different neurological wiring? Probably for some it does, maybe to an extent for others as well. Am I cheating myself by not committing tunes to memory? I sincerely doubt it. I'd say, possibly, but only if committing tunes to memory is something you strongly desire to do. Intrinsically, no. There are obvious benefits to memorizing tunes. Not everyone needs or desires those particular benefits. You make great points; I always love reading your posts because they're insightful and I believe you have a gift for turning a nice expression.
I don't have much advice to give because I empathise, but I find that breaking the tune down into constituent parts to be extremely helpful. Usually I split a tune into four sections and then master each one. When I think I have that, I play it through really slowly and try hard not to look at my tab sheet. Then I keep doing that until it is nailed and try to speed it up. But the issue of the song slipping away if not played regularly is a problem. I find that if I mentally note the first three or four notes to a song, I can usually get going. Similar to scales, once I remember the first few notes I am fine. I think the best advice is to not be hard on yourself, and that goes for everyone. Enjoy it and realise that the brain will struggle to memorise and retain tunes.
I love sheet music, but I do try to perform the mental calisthenics to memorize a bit. It is hard but I'm kind of hoping to build capacity. In truth, I would be more motivated to do so if I were playing with a group rather than just by myself, but I harbor a fantasy of being at a social gathering and spontaneously breaking into a tune. Hard to be spontaneous lugging around notebooks of sheet music.
Sleet just presented my feelings nicely. Thanks, Sleet!
Great discussion. Thought I'd share a recent experience. I attended a bluegrass festival last June and they had a mando workshop in the morning. While waiting for the instructor, everyone (about 9 of us or so) was chatting about playing. I mentioned that I envy folks that can sight read as I've learned most everything by ear. About half the group nodded in agreement. Someone else mentioned that he can only sight read and envies anyone that can learn by ear, and the other half of the group nodded in agreement. I guess ideally it would be nice to be able to do both at least to some degree. -Bill
Bill wrote: "I guess ideally it would be nice to be able to do both at least to some degree." There's no reason you can't, it really depends on how committed you are to developing either or both skills. There's plenty of inertia to overcome either way, I think. But one thing to remember is that you probably can't do everything all at once, and another is that you have your whole life to learn whatever you want to about making music. We all have the same number of hours in a day, and no one knows for certain how many days they have; I think it's a good thing thing to fill your days with music, creativity and learning new stuff, and that's what pretty much everyone in this group is doing. Life is grand.
I thank God every day for life, it's opportunities and challenges. Just wish I'd started this music journey many, many years ago. Since I didn't, I'm just trying to make the most of it now. What a ride it's been.
Many years ago we saw Leo Kottke. He was talking about taking a break from touring to learn to read music. We heard him a year or so ago. If he did learn, it didn't hurt his playing any!
Leo Kottke. Wow. Is he still around? How about John Fahey? Those two are about the only two non-classical guitarists I have LPs or CDs from.
Yes, Hank, Kottke has performed here a couple of times recently. He's still an amazing guitarist and storyteller, and time hasn't done his singing voice any harm either. He's maybe 70-ish or so. Don't know about John Fahey.
