Week #455 ~ The Birdfeeder Waltz

More fantastic versions!! Loving them all!

I'm going to be very late to the party but this tune is definitely on my "to learn" list and I'll be recording a version hopefully in the next few weeks - at the moment I'm trying to learn 17 tunes for the Marla Fibish mandolin intensive coming up this weekend - ack!

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Here is my version of this one. It is a first try at playing two parts on my mandolin. I enjoyed playing this.

Nice tone, Brian! I think you're getting out of rhythm, though. From my own experience, this happens easily when multi-tracking. In my submission for this tune, I recorded the melody first and the accompaniment afterwards. I only noticed afterwards that I was speeding up as I went along. If I had wanted to play full chords in the background, I might have recorded them first, playing along with a metronome. I find it too hard to play melody to a metronome, but it would have helped with a steady tempo.

What I'm getting at is that you too may benefit from experimenting with recording melody first, or chords first, using a metronome or chord software in the appropriate places. It would be interesting to hear how the more experienced recording artists in this group do that.

Glesenbury: Thanks for the advice. I recorded the melody first, then the rhythm. Both were recorded independently while reading the sheet music. I cant play while listening to a metronome and only use that device to get an idea of the tempo. When doing the rhythm I tried a few different strumming patterns and chose one where my strumming track was approximately the same length as the melody. When doing the rhythm I wasn't listening to the melody, and really did not have the sound of the rhythms relationship to the melody "in my head." When I put the two tracks together I accepted them as they were . You are right on the experimentation, I think I should have broken down the rhythm to get a better idea for it. I did like that it covered up my creaking chair, grunts, inhales and exhales. It is a challenge. I welcome all advice on how to get better this.

I've enjoyed each rendition very much, and have enjoyed learning and trying to play this pretty tune. My rendition is much rougher than I'd hoped, but I finished it today so here it is. I created midi backing tracks, and played the first section with chords, the second just plain jane picking the melody.

Brian and Mark, thanks for two more versions of the tune and for your efforts and time. Mark, your version is really enjoyable with the variety you get into delivery, and the backing tracks work really well.

Brian, having read your description of how you made your recording, here are my suggestions: I too almost always record the melody track first rather than laying down a rhythm track. This is particularly important when recording slow airs, where there is not the rock-steady rhythm of tunes such as reels, jigs, etc - tunes to which people dance. Slow airs are more a story-telling in music, with the pauses and variations in pace that a good story-teller uses to bring a story alive. Other posters here wil record rhythm first, and you just have to decide which suits you better.

When I have the melody track recorded as I want it (often after several takes to eliminate the errors, extraneous noises, etc), I then record the rhythm and other backing tracks. Listen to David's (and other of the regulars in the SAW group) multi-track work to hear some very fine recording The crucial thing here is that I am listening to the melody track through headphones as I record the other tracks, so I can actually tailor the backing to suit. From what you said above, you recorded the two tracks completely in isolation from each other, so had very little chance of achieving any proper synchronisation of the two. That you got them fairly close in your recording is a remarkable feat, and more than I could have managed. I do not know what equipment you are using, but to monitor recorded tracks while adding new ones needs a full duplex set-up in your recording. I use an Edirol UA-25 audio interface which connects to my PC or laptop and feeds into a DAW called REAPER. There are lots of DAWs available, including the freeware Audacity, and Mac users have GarageBand. This software allows you to monitor your recordings, and keep an eye (and ear) on latency - this is the gap that can occur between the note being played and the time it takes to get put on the track, measured in milliseconds. It also allows you to make a final mix to bring out certain tracks or put others further into the background, and lets you play with the stereo placing of the tracks.

Please feel free to contact me if you think I can offer you any further help with getting the tracks recorded, and keep up the good work!

Mark that sounds quite smooth. Good playing and a good presentation.

John, thanks for the comments. I am using a Zoom H2n portable recorder. For a DAW I am using MELOSITY which is a cloud based recording software that allows people from around the world to collaborate on the same project. Right now I am just uploading files onto it, but I am planning on getting a microphone and interface plus laptop so I can record directly into projects. I have a feeling I will be doing more projects like this in the future.

Sounds really good, Mark.

Brian, your Zoom H2n can be used as a USB mic plugged into your computer or iPad. Set the Zoom up as both the input and output audio device. I'd recommend a DAW on your computer, not the cloud, for low latency. Record a track. Plug your headphones into the Zoom, get another track in record mode, and play along to the first track.

Mark Gunter... I loved that video! The playing was great, of course, but the video! I love birds, and birds at the birdfeeders. Perfect videos for the tune! And that squirrel! Right on time with the waltz!

Thanks Barbara, I'm glad you enjoyed the little twist! Or should I say 'twirl' ...

Thanks for the nice comments everyone.

Sounds great, Mark! Very pretty, and nice subtle variations too. I also liked the intriguing Ferris Wheel birdfeeder at 1:03, didn't know there was such a thing, pretty cool.

Finally, I have a version that's almost correct. I love this haunting piece - I'm going around with it playing in my mind. I've tried some simple chords and other stuff - not sure it works - but it's still a huge learning curve for me

Interesting version you have here , Gareth. You play it straighter, without the swing, and it gives the tune a different feel. Your chords and double stops sound very good too, and your fingering is interesting. I am wondering if you play the fiddle as well? You regularly play the E on the A string 7th fret rather than the open E, and you move up the neck accordingly. A good job all round!

Gareth, very cool. Your fiddle training always shows when I watch your fingerings, and it gives a fresh way to view the playing of the piece, thanks. Also, I'm a sucker for the little ornaments like the hammer-ons you toss in here and there.

JL, I purchased the Chordpulse program after a few discussions with you over the past year - my internet was out the past week, and the online backing tracks I use for practice purposes weren't available, so I opted to get the full program. This was (and is thus far) the first (and only) tune I've input. I really wish the result could be more easily exported as a .wav or .mp3 because I like the sound of that backup music app. What I did in this case was to export it as midi, and import into my DAW - after which I had to assign instruments from within the DAW to each midi part by trial and error, then try to mix it down. It was time-consuming and the final mix is not that great due to my lack of audio mixing skill and experience, but it did work! I doubt I'll do much of that in the future, as I usually prefer no backup to midi backup, except for practice sessions.

Nice one, Gareth! I hope you're enjoying the new mandolin.

John, Mark - Thanks - yes I do play the fiddle, but a while ago now. I feel happy moving around to a different position - and not use to the idea of using open strings yet.
Dennis - yep - new mandolin is great - got some primetone picks as well and the sounds really improved. And wondering about going to see Simon play agin on Saturday night - he's got a gig in Reading.

Sportsnapper, I'm in awe of how effortlessly you move up the neck, and without even looking! Pretty cool! Nice ornaments too, like at 0:27 etc. Good job!

Mark Gunter wrote: "... wish the result could be more easily exported as a .wav or .mp3 ..."

Yeah MIDI takes (IMO) too much effort to make it usable. You did good with that though! A lot better than I could have.

I have sometimes experimented with drag-and-drop a MIDI file onto a MuseScore window just to see what it looks like in standard notation (the more complex arrangements sometimes require a lot of cleanup and/or rewriting to make it more legible) and then letting MuseScore playback the MIDI, but as you said, especially in arrangements with multiple instruments, the 'instruments' don't sound the same so it's a lot of work switching instruments to try to get it to sound similar to how it does in ChordPulse.

My usual easy method, of course, is to just use Audacity to record ChordPulse straight off the soundcard, then it's just an easy two mouse-clicks: click the Record button in Audacity, then click Play button in ChordPulse, voila Audacity records the output and then you can export as WAV. The only tricky part is getting the system & Audacity "Recording" prefs set to record that way.

I also use Audacity to record MuseScore playback too, I think it sounds better than MuseScore's built-in WAV export for some reason.

You can also use Audacity to record YouTube video *sound*-only, which is handy when you want to slow a tune down to half speed or any other speed - sometimes that results in slightly better audio quality than using YouTube's own slow-down feature. Also, once the audio part of a YouTube tune is in Audacity, you can 'fine-tune' the pitch in tiny increments which is useful if the people in a recording weren't playing at concert pitch (not unusual in really old recordings especially of fiddle/banjo music)... with a few minutes of trial-and-error you can bring the recording up (or down) to concert pitch - that way you can play along without having to retune all your instruments to non-standard pitch. For instance, say that you know the tune is in G but they're playing it halfway between G and Ab, so you can use Audacity to fine-tune the pitch back to standard concert pitch.

FWIW, all the Windows PC's I've ever owned (1 Acer, 1 HP, & a couple different Dells), have had the apparently-common "Realtek" audio stuff. With that Realtek setup, at least on all my PC's, all you have to do to record directly from the soundcard, is set the system sound Recording settings to "Stereo Mix" (sometimes it's hidden, there are workarounds to make it available). But that's just one type of soundcard, I don't know about others. I also don't know about modern Macs, although I have vague recollections that there was some way to make my ancient Mac do that.

But before anyone goes changing any sound settings, make a note of what the existing settings are, because you might need to switch it back later. For instance, if I want to record directly from the soundcard (for instance to record YouTube *audio* or Chordpulse output or MuseScore playback) I use the "Stereo Mix" setting. But if I wanted to record from a line-in or USB mic or something, I'd have to set the System recording prefs to something different. I have been known to switch back and forth several times in a day, depending on what needs to be recorded.

JL, thanks for the tip about using Audacity to record the ChordPulse tracks. I had forgotten that this could be done through the PC's soundcard. Im my case I have set Audacity's settings to capture the ChordPulse track as follows: Audio Host - Windows ASAPI; Recording Device - Speakers (High Definition)(2 stereo); Out - Speakers (High Definition). I would not have thought immediately of having the speakers as the recording device, but realise it is the internal soundcard that is being used rather than my Edirol audio interface.

On my laptop I have Band-in-a-Box but have never really come to be a great fan of it. I am not intending to use ChordPulse to add backings to my finished recordings but for working out and listening to arrangements quickly it will be of great use, I am sure.

Thanks again, and I hope those settings will maybe save others a bit of time.

John Kelly wrote: "... I have set Audacity's settings to capture the ChordPulse track as follows: Audio Host - Windows ASAPI; Recording Device - Speakers (High Definition)(2 stereo); Out - Speakers (High Definition). I would not have thought immediately of having the speakers as the recording device, but realise it is the internal soundcard that is being used rather than my Edirol audio interface.
...
I hope those settings will maybe save others a bit of time."

Thanks John!

I guess different computer hardware arrangements use different settings. I don't have an audio interface (at least I don't think I do! not sure), but I do have a USB mixer which I use as a line-in to the PC (PC has no separate mic jack, it has only the newfangled 'combined' headphone/mic jack, so the USB mixer lets me use one of the computer's USB ports as an audio line-in so I can record stuff while simultaneously listening to playback).

FWIW, this is what my settings look like when I'm using Audacity to record directly from the soundcard:

My system's "Sound" control panel:




My Audacity preferences:





Couple more Audacity prefs, these look the same regardless of recording source:








A lot of the Audacity prefs, I don't even know what they all mean, so I just leave those at the default settings. The only one that gets changed around regularly is the "Devices" settings, to change which recording input to use (PC's built-in soundcard vs USB line-in).

You don't need to go into the "Sound" control panel to change the input (or indeed output) device in Audacity. All available devices are shown in the pull-down menus next to the mic and speaker symbols on the top left of the Audacity window, directly underneath the playback control buttons. You can change device and input/output levels from within Audacity without going into the Windows controls at all. However, Audacity doesn't cope gracefully with hot swaps: all devices must be present when you launch Audacity and the program may crash if you unplug any of them during a recording session.

My recording setup is really simple: I use a Zoom H2n (without batteries) as a USB microphone and conventional analogue wired headphones as output. I've taken the batteries out of the Zoom to make sure the device doesn't go into standalone recorder mode -- without batteries, it only switches on with a USB cable present and the only available mode is USB microphone. Thus, my input device selected from the pulldown menu is "USB Microphone (H2n)" and my output device is "Speakers/Headphones (Realtek)".

I've only very recently figured out that I should correct for latency, which is very easy: generate a click track in Audacity, then playback that click track through the headphones while at the same time recording the headphone output with the microphone by placing the microphone next to the headphone speaker. Check whether the clicks on the computer-generated click track align with those on the newly recorded track. If they do, the latency correction is right, if they don't adjust the latency value in the Audacity setup to make them align. In my case, the default latency correction was 121ms but the actual latency was 173ms, i.e. all my tracks were out by 52ms. I've adjusted that now -- apologies to anybody whose ears are better than mine and who noticed the offset on my older recordings.

Martin

"correct for latency"

I'm glad to hear that, in case I ever use Audacity. I'd read in other threads in the forum that latency couldn't be corrected in Audacity. The method you describe is about the same as the one used in Ableton, and the method was taught in one of the first tutorials that came with Ableton. I used a click track, sent it to headphone jack and patched from headphone jack to instrument input to record - then adjusted the latency timing until the waveforms matched.

Mark --

Yes, you can correct for latency. I've always known that, but as my recordings without adjustment sounded OK to me I didn't look into how you actually do it. Not sure how much of an audible difference the tweak has made to my recordings. If you want to check for yourself, my recording of Birdfeeder Waltz earlier in this thread is with the default latency, and my recent recording of Last Rose Of Summer is with the adjusted latency.

Martin

Martin, thanks for all the good info about Audacity and settings and Zoom H2n. Good stuff to know.

Martin wrote: "... Audacity doesn't cope gracefully with hot swaps: all devices must be present when you launch Audacity and the program may crash if you unplug any of them during a recording session."

Aha, that could explain a few problems I'd had with Audacity from time to time... never occurred to me that hot swaps might have been the issue. But looking back on it, it seems a likely possibility. Thanks for mentioning that!

(I've gotten rather slipshod these days with the modern mostly-carefree USB devices, compared to the strictness of my old Mac days with temperamental SCSI devices where you could absolutely *not* hot-swap anything at all without dire consequences. Lol.)

One other peculiar less-than-graceful thing I've found, on all three of my last 3 computers including the current one, is that if I intend to run multiple music/sound apps including MuseScore all at the same time, MuseScore must be started first, before starting any of the other apps which use sound (basically includes all of 'em - Audacity, ChordPulse, Windows Media Player, Hydrogen, anything that uses sound), otherwise there will be no sound until they're all shut down and then start over again with just MuseScore and then open the other apps. Computers are weird. Maybe it's something in my settings, who knows. I've adapted to it though.

Martin, I noticed that you mention latency figures of 121 and 173 ms in your post above. That seems quite high, but it may well be becaues you are using a different set-up from the one I use. My figures using REAPER Daw with my Edirol UA-25 interface are around 8.6 to 11 ms. I record at 44.1 Khz and 24bit wav, generally, then render to mp3 for using in YouTube, etc.

John, I think it depends on how the app is built to use the core audio services in the OS. Using Audacity, I have high latency figures. When I use Logic (I'm mac based) it calculates the latency for me, and it's around 5-6 ms

Mark -- Hot-swapping doesn't necessarily crash Audacity, but it can do so. Audacity doesn't update device lists once launched, i.e. if you add a device with Audacity running, the program doesn't know it exists but there are usually no other problems. No so good, of course, if the device is the microphone you want to use -- you have to exit and relaunch Audacity. If you unplug a device, you get (usually) an error message or (rarely) a crash if Audacity then tries to access that device.

John -- I'm pretty sure those latency figures are correct. Keep in mind that this is cumulative latency from the entire signal chain and that I don't have dedicated audio gear. This is all done by the built-in audio hardware and OS services.

Martin

I thought that might be the answer, guys, with the system's own audio hardware making greater demands on the processing time, thus giving greater latency figures. At least, I am claiming that now with your added knowledge!

Martin, REAPER too needs to have things like a keyboard plugged in before being launched. Anything you plug in after it is up and running does not seem to register, as I find out on the many ocasions I go to use a keyboard to add synth instruments and find I have no input device loaded! Maybe this is a feature of DAWs?

Is there a way to move the recording tips into a separate thread to make them easier to find? There's lots of helpful content here, with applicability beyond the current tune.

I think there are a few threads here with recording tips, check Barbara's topics index. I looked through them at one point ... but as you've noted these things seem to crop up often in threads about some tune or other. It'd be a tough task to find them all and copy them over elsewhere, I think, and probably equally difficult to have a rule that we can't discuss this stuff in the tune threads. It just sort of happens organically in discussion ... just my opinion, ymmv.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mark Gunter this afternoon. He was in Arlington this weekend and managed to come by my house to visit and play some music. John Kelly, we made several runs through your beautiful waltz. After watching this video, I really wanted to redo it, but was afraid my next attempt might be worse.

Mark, thanks for taking the time to do this!

https://youtu.be/wDzIrJXJh0o

How nice, I enjoyed your collaboration! Somehow I was busy or sleeping this particular week, as I'd missed all of this. Thanks, John, for giving us such a beautiful tune. It's fun to play.

Sherry wrote: "I had the pleasure of meeting Mark Gunter this afternoon. He was in Arlington this weekend and managed to come by my house to visit and play some music. John Kelly, we made several runs through your beautiful waltz. ..."

Cool!

What a small world. Sherry & Mark, that is a truly authentic event!

Just been having a listen to the two of you, and must say a big thanks for adding the waltz to your repertoires. I like the way you have alternated melody and backing between you. As Bertram says, small world; do you actually live close to each other anyway, or was there a big distance involved? Thought I felt my ears burning a few hours ago, and now I know why!

Kay, as far as I know, it's never too late to post your video!

Your ears definitely should have been burning, John! As I watch and listen to the video, I'm soooo impressed with Mark's playing. I don't believe he had played this in a while and he was mostly playing from memory. You wouldn't know I practice it every day - and that some days it sounds pretty darn good. I do struggle with those triplets in the A part every time, though.

Mark lives about 200 miles from me, I believe. His daughter lives near me, though, and he was visiting her family for Easter. We agreed to get together again soon and ask Fredk and Caleb to join us. We'd love to hear from others in the Dallas Fort Worth area - or others who may want to travel here.

"Mark, thanks for taking the time to do this!" - Sherry, the pleasure was mine. I'm grateful to you and your husband for your hospitality.

John Kelly, you may be pleased to know that I learned that Sherry is planning to play your Birdfeeder Waltz as one of two numbers at a recital for which she's preparing. Her teacher, who is actually a violinist rather than a mandolinist, has evidently developed a counterpoint to the melody for a violin part. Her violin student and Sherry will be playing doubles on this. They will be switching off, as Sherry was practicing with me. During the parts where I was attempting to remember the chords (), the violinist will be playing a counterpoint to Sherry's melody, followed by Sherry playing chords while the violinist plays melody.

Your waltz continues to inspire many musicians and budding musicians, it seems!

Thanks for that, Mark. Still rather amazed at the reception the tune has had from the SAW group members and others. I'd love to see the harmony part that Sherry's teacher has written and to hear how it has added to the original, especially as it is a fiddler who is creating this counterpoint. Maybe get a link to the recital if someone films it, Sherry? Good luck with the recital.

Guess I should have mentioned to Mark the recital on Saturday was to be a surprise for you, John. Lol. There will be a video and the plan is to post it. I enlarged the music for the violin player. His copy shows the second violin part our teacher added. I'll research how to post a PDF here and try to do it today.

Henry posted an instructional video in the Newbies group. I'll check it out when I'm back in my office.

Just noticed you have posted the harmony part (2nd fiddle) over on the Song and Tune Projects in the Forum, Sherry. Thanks for this.

You're welcome, John. I got stuck in trying to post the PDF here and had to reach out to Henry. Just heard back from him and have, hopefully, resolved my issue. If you see the PDF (or at least the link) below, I was successful. If not, then . . . .

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...5&d=1522772711

Good news and bad news.

The good news is the recital went well. Our teacher said it was the best we had played both our pieces, including The Birdfeeder Waltz.

The bad news is I didn't realize when I muted my phone so it didn't ring during the performances, there would be no sound on the video.

I love technology except when I don't.

Sherry wrote: "... The good news is the recital went well. Our teacher said it was the best we had played both our pieces, including The Birdfeeder Waltz. ..."

Awesome!

Sherry wrote: "... The bad news is I didn't realize when I muted my phone so it didn't ring during the performances, there would be no sound on the video. ..."

Oh man that's a bummer...

Mark wrote: "... Her teacher, who is actually a violinist rather than a mandolinist, has evidently developed a counterpoint to the melody for a violin part. ..."

Sherry wrote: "... PDF here ..."
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...5&d=1522772711

So I put the harmony notes from Sherry's PDF above, into MuseScore and then had MuseScore playback the file, as a sort of 'simulation' of what those harmony notes would sound like. Click the little left-side arrow to play the mp3 audio file in your browser without having to leave this page:



I like the sound of Sherry's teacher's harmony line when MuseScore is set as above where both melody & harmony are played by the same 'instrument'.

But when I tried setting MuseScore to (for instance) use mandolin for the melody and violin for the harmony, I couldn't get it to sound right. I experimented with a few other midi 'instrument' combinations but finally concluded that maybe those particular harmony-line notes are perhaps more suitable for similar-sounding instruments (such as two violins, or two mandolins, etc)... not sure. Of course these computer simulations leave a lot to be desired as far as audio quality, so it's hard to know.

Hi Sherry, glad the recital went well for you. It's always good to get a solid public performance under your belt.
Hard luck with the recording mishap. Maybe out there is a bootleg copy of the performance? When we are all famous it will emerge.
JL, interesting to hear the Musescore rendition and read your comments. I too would agree that some of the default instruments do not always go well together, but I rarely if ever use Musescore as you do, to create sound files to add to recordings. It is still such a marvellous program and I know I only really scratch the surface of what it can do. Thanks for taking the time to produce this version.

A miracle has occurred, as today my video has sound! I'm waiting to hear back from the violinist in hopes the video his wife took is from a better angle. Anyway, I'll post something soon.

JL, your MP3 shows an error. Can others open it?

The mp3 is playing fine for me. So glad you did get the sound! Perhaps your phone was still muted when you tried to listen first time? At any rate, we're looking forward to seeing the performance. I'm glad it went well.

Interesting, Mark. I found I am able to listen to the MP3 on my phone (and enjoyed it!); however, on my desktop computer there's a message that reads: "Error: Unsupported audio type or invalid file path."

Sherry wrote: "... I found I am able to listen to the MP3 on my phone (and enjoyed it!); ..."

Cool!

Sherry wrote: "... however, on my desktop computer there's a message that reads: "Error: Unsupported audio type or invalid file path."

Mark wrote: "The mp3 is playing fine for me. ..."

I didn't know the mp3 would be intermittently problematic or I would have put a video there instead. Is anyone else having trouble getting the mp3 to play?

Mark wrote: "... At any rate, we're looking forward to seeing the performance."

Yes!

I suppose vanity is keeping me from posting my video. Not my best side! Anyway, if I don't have the violinist's video by this weekend, I'll post mine. I appreciate everyone's(?) interest.

vanity is keeping me from posting my video

Never heard of vanity - is that some anti-virus program or a microsoft skin?