Cylinder back construction

[Graham McDonald]

Been looking at various pics of Vega cylinder back mandolins and mandolas, and all seem to have one piece backs moulded into the cylindrical centre section. I suppose that they could be solid timber, though large planks to start off with, but surely I would have been a simpler and more stable approach to laminate the backs. Has anyone had the back off a Vega mandolin or mandola and seen how they were made?

And any ideas on how long the 10 string combination instruments were made for? There was a flurry of advertising in The Cadenza and The Crescendo for a for months after the launch in 1913 then not a mention.

cheers

[Jim Garber]

I believe that these backs were not carved but steam-bent. I have a Vega cylinder guitar which is very similar to the Howe-Orme instruments which could have been made by Vega also. These have cylinder tops as well whereas the Vega CBs have canted tops.

[nickster60]

I would also guess they where steam bent. If they where carved it would take quite a bit of labor and waste a lot of wood.

[Graham McDonald]

I would be fairly certain that the backs were steam bent. I can't see how else it could be done in a production environment, but I am interested in what they were steam bent/moulded/pressed from. Solid timber or laminated veneers. In the pics I have seen there does not seem to be any centre join. I have one pic of a 307 mandola with a birdseye maple back with no obvious centre join, which got me thinking about veneers rather than a solid 10-12" wide pice of birdseye rock maple.

cheers

[jdsobol]

I've heard that the guys from Rigal mandolins had one apart and determined that it was carved from a single block. There was a lot of wood around in those days...

[sunburst]

To the best of my knowledge, they were all solid wood backs, not laminated. If there are some laminated ones, it will, of coarse, be the first time I've been wrong...
I have a pretty comprehensive set of measurements of one, in a notebook. I also made templates of the shape of the back, neck and other things.

[harper]

I have two Vega cylinder back mandolins, model 203, and can confirm that the back is one piece. This webpage http://bellsouthpwp.com/r/d/rdevelli/Vega%20307%20Mandola.htm contains the following comment:

"The back of these instruments has a cylindrical bulge running longitudinally from the neck heel to the butt. As the above patent reveals, the designer of the cylinder-back was none other than David L. Day, best known for his banjo designs as a member of the Fairbanks, Vega, and Bacon companies. There is also some confusion regarding whether the cylindrical bulge was pressed or carved. Although I had assumed they were pressed, expert luthier Steve Carmody, who has repaired several, claims emphatically that they they were carved."

I cannot tell from looking at the inside through the soundhole. The grain of the wood is quite straight and runs londitudinally.

[BradKlein]

I too have never heard or observed anything that would suggest laminated backs - and I've owned two. As for, carved or pressed - I can't say, although I might develop an opinion if I examine some more closely.

Note that many people overlook a very important construction detail. The neck block extends from 'shoulder to shoulder' on these instruments, and is visible from the headstock angle and when looking from the sides. The sides do NOT cover the neck block as they do in most other mandolin designs. The folks doing the very fine finish work (varnish/french polish?) did a careful job staining the end grain to match the side grain of the sides, but you can always see where sides meet neck block externally.

[Jim Garber]

Note that many people overlook a very important construction detail. The neck block extends from 'shoulder to shoulder' on these instruments, and is visible from the headstock angle and when looking from the sides. The sides do NOT cover the neck block as they do in most other mandolin designs. The folks doing the very fine finish work (varnish/french polish?) did a careful job staining the end grain to match the side grain of the sides, but you can always see where sides meet neck block externally.

That is very interesting, Brad. You mean, when you look from the outside of the instrument, you are actually seeing the neck blocK? Like in this shot from Mandolin Brothers site.

Man, you guys got me going now. I need to take out my poor warped CB mandolin and my cylinder guitar and take a good look at things. I still, despite Steve Carmody's insistence, agree with Graham that these backs were steamed/molded.

[brunello97]

Here's a direct link to Steve C's page on his repair of a Vega cylinder back (though he's not actually repairing the back...)

Vega CB repair (http://www.guitarrepairshop.com/repairvega.html)

The author does include a (!) following his statement about the backs being carved, which I guess implies emphasis, if not certainty. Nothing else about the back construction except that they are braced, which would seem unnecessary if it were carved. (But I'm no builder.)

I assumed the Howe-Orme tops from roughly the same era were also steamed / pressed so the technology was around at the time. My thought has been that the Vega folks were keen to that and decided to push the envelope a bit. I've played a few of the VCBs and haven't been particularly impressed by the sound but I sure like them nonetheless. Did play a VCB mandocello that was amazing, but that was the first m-c that I played so I admit to having been dazzled.

Some of the old timers in the shop here use high strength ammonia to soften up their wood before press molding. Any idea when that practice might have started? I guess I could look it up myself...:redface:

Mick

[Jim Garber]

My guess is that the H-O instruments were built by Vega. Makes sense to me esp since they were in the same town.

[Walt Kuhlman]

From the ones I have seen, and the one I used as a model for my builds, (thank you Eddie S.) they are, one piece/steam pressed. This technology was readily available and used in furniture factories to bend chair backs and slats. It would not be a leap of imagination to create a press mold for the cylinder back. Mike Dulak of Big Muddy uses one of these old steam presses for the sides of his mandolins, there is a video of him and his shop that shows a little of his process..

[Jim Garber]

Walt: Did you use a form to shape your cylinder backs? I believe that you made at least two of those mandolins? Nice job, BTW, Walt!!

Peter Langdell I believe made at least one but I think he carved the back. I know the Vegas had the cylinder run along the grain but I would think there would be some strength in wood across the grain as well and if you carved the back as thin ads I believe the Vegas are, I would think that it would be weaker when carved vs. bent. Those who know, please correct me if I am wrong about that.

[Graham McDonald]

Thank you all for your contributions on this one. I have realised that the mandolins at least have a little endgrain of the back visible on the heel cap where there is no binding (see Jim's pic from Mandolin Bros above) and a Vega owner out here in Australia had a look at his and can't see anything like laminations. Other inspections and comments welcome :) I would expect that Vega had steam bending/pressing technology. They had been making banjos since at least 1904 when they acquired the Fairbanks name, and quite possibly in the 10-15 years before that, so used to bending pieces of timber.

Thanks Brad for the info about the neck block. Similar to that used by Regal a little later for the Octophone. The Howe-Orme / Vega connection is interesting, though Howe-Orme instruments are 15 years before the cylinder back range was introduced and david Day, who took out the design paten on the cylinder back, was working for Fairbanks at that time, rather than Vega. That question may just be one of those unknowns.

I have always been intrigued by the little engraved oval lozenge fretboard inlays on both, though I think it was a banjo historian who pointed out that they were made by a third party in Boston and anyone could buy them.

cheers

[Jim Garber]

I guess the one question: was there actually a Howe-Orme factory? If not, it is entirely possible that Vega made these (or Fairbanks before them) for Howe and Orme and then took that same technology and later applied them to their own designs. In any case, this is a great discussion.

[BradKlein]

That is very interesting, Brad. You mean, when you look from the outside of the instrument, you are actually seeing the neck blocK?

That's right. As I mentioned, those guys were amazing w stains and finishes, so it can be hard to see. It's more obvious on my Vega CB Bass Mandolin(!). That's a big stacked neck block North of my pointer finger which is near the seam where bent mahogany sides meet solid wood.

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As for the sound, I think they are my favorites among cant-top mandolins, over Martins. They were made with mahogany, rosewood and maple backs, so they all sound different.

And that neck block design was also used in some mandolins made by Harmony and by Albert Shutt, himself, in the very early 20th century.

[Walt Kuhlman]

Jim, I did build a form to place the back pieces in, holding them as they cooled and dried, after steam bending them.

Like Brad has shown, the neck block is quite large. I first shaped it to fit the back and it's rise to the points then removed material from the mass, contouring it toward the body joint, to lighten the instrument. The neck block was laminated with the same curly maple I used for the sides, continuing grain pattern from the mitered points to the neck joint.

I also laminated the cross bracing on the back to give them additional strength.

Walt

[brunello97]

That's right. As I mentioned, those guys were amazing w stains and finishes, so it can be hard to see. It's more obvious on my Vega CB Bass Mandolin(!). That's a big stacked neck block North of my pointer finger which is near the seam where bent mahogany sides meet solid wood.

Brad, what's the profile of that neck block on the inside? Looks like a substantial piece of wood.

Mick

[BradKlein]

Brad, what's the profile of that neck block on the inside?

Hard to describe. Like the neck blocks on a Gibson A or F, they sawed away as much as they could on the South side of the neck block to leave more of the top free to vibrate. Someday, I'd like to do a mandobass shoot-out. I think the Vega compares very well to the Gibsons of the day.

[j. condino]

I've done a couple of neck resets on Vega cylinderback mandolins- both from approx. 1915. There was no dovetail- just a very deep mortise with straight cheeks- about 1.5" deep.

j.
www.condino.com

[BradKlein]

I've done a couple of neck resets on Vega cylinderback mandolins- both from approx. 1915. There was no dovetail- just a very deep mortise with straight cheeks- about 1.5" deep.

Wowser! Do you happen to have a photo, James? That's a fascinating construction detail, particularly because, I don't think I've ever seen a neck joint failing or creeping on these mandolins - certainly nothing like the much cheaper mass produced instruments like stradolin where you see so many with the heel lifting.

[jdsobol]

[QUOTE=BradKlein;1214254]That's right. As I mentioned, those guys were amazing w stains and finishes, so it can be hard to see.

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>>> I'd agree with you about the Vega finishes--gorgeous. Recently got a Vega CB mando restored that has about the prettiest dark sunburst I've seen besides a Loar F5, and this one pre-dates the Loars by a couple of years--the serial # would indicate 1920. It has a foil label rather than the older paper medallion, btw. My crappy phone camera won't capture the depth of it, but it's pretty amazing.

[jdsobol]

Just posted that sunburst model 202 for sale here at the Cafe classifieds. Not sure how the contact or payment functions are supposed to work, but check it out. More photos on request.

[danb]

Hello Graham,

Somewhat tangential to your request.. I have owned 2 different original Vega 10-strings in the past.. one was Mandolin scale, the other was Mandola. Both were meant to be tuned CGDAE. The mandolin-scale one was quite tinny and shrill on the top gague, a .009! It worked well in first position, though up the neck the tone was less satisfying.

The mandola-scale one was quite a beast. I recorded with it on my second disk, and eventually sold to a friend/player in the states.. I'd say the longer-scale one was more successful.

Having been a big fan of 10-string mandolins and etc over the years, I think the single-most successful setup for a melody player is the 21" Sobell I now have- it's got a bouzouki body and a 21" scale length (well 20.75" to be accurate). I tune GDAEA. The top strings sound nice all the way up the neck, though of course I'd like a few more frets on top than Stefan used in this design. They'd *just about* intrude on the soundhole to add any more!

I've lost the original catalog I had, but it looked like Vega made 3 variants of the 10-string design

style 1205 Combination Mandola-mandolin (I had one of these)
style 1304 Combintation Mandolin-mandola (I also had this one.. the longer-scale!)
style 1404 Combination Octavo mandola-mandocello (never seen one, would love to try!)

The 1404 sounds like a "normal" 10-string bouzouki to me.. basically CGDAE bass to treble combining a madocello and an octave mandolin (or octave mandola, as some say). Wouldn't it be a treat to find one of those? Probably a 26" scale or so eh..

I've always thought cylinderbacks (especially maple ones) are wonderful to play, right up there with my favorite old Gibsons. I played Jimmy Gaudreau's Rigel cylinderback, and thought it was fantastic- the back was indeed carved out of a huge piece of maple by Pete Langdell. One of the nicer mandolas I've ever tried..

I spoke to Jimmy about it, and apparently the top *appears* to be bent spruce, but is actually carved on the inside with recurve and all hidden inside the box.. the whole thing is a hot-rod tribute to the original vega. Amazing craftsmanship & ideas..

[Graham McDonald]

Thanks for that info Dan. I hadn't come across those model numbers for the combination instruments before. Vega advertised the three Combination instruments quite heavily for a year or so from the middle of 1913 and then appeared to stop, though serial numbers suggest they were built until around 1920. The 10 string cello would be an interesting find. Trevor down in Brighton found an earlier, (1908) flatback Vega cello with a pin bridge recently and it had a 26" scale, though a hunt around the archives here suggests the cylinder back models used a 24.6" (or thereabouts) scale. If anyone has one and could measure the distance from nut to 12th fret and/or nut to bridge it would be appreciated.

Vega did, I think, make a longer scale mandola as well at a round 17.5" scale. The 1912 ads in The Cadenza had photos of the range from piccolo bowlback mandolin (10-11" scale?) up to the mando-bass and I am trying to guesstimate mandola and 'cello string lengths from the photo. I can post that phot if anyone is interested.

cheers

[danb]

Vega did, I think, make a longer scale mandola as well at a round 17.5" scale. The 1912 ads in The Cadenza had photos of the range from piccolo bowlback mandolin (10-11" scale?) up to the mando-bass and I am trying to guesstimate mandola and 'cello string lengths from the photo. I can post that phot if anyone is interested.

I think we've had some pretty good luck guesstimating scale length using known measurements of tuner post distance & extrapolating..

[Graham McDonald]

Here is one of the first (if not the first) Vega ad from 1912 for their new models. Interested to see what folks can work out as string lengths for the mandola and mandocello with the bowlback at the front at 13" and the cylinder back mandolin behind it a a little under 14"

cheers

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[Jim Garber]

I had one of the shorter scale Vega ten strings many years ago and I agree with Dan that the sound was not altogether wonderful. I have never seen the longer-scale one.

[Eddie Sheehy]

My 10-string Vega CB - $15" scale, CCGGDDAAEE, Brazilian Rosewood back:

[brunello97]

Thanks, Eddie. That looks like a wiiiide neck. Did you ever have it set up with 10 strings?

Is the back made of multiple pieces of RW? The grain changes quite a bit on the picture-left / treble-back side.

Mick

[Eddie Sheehy]

I got it with 8 strings and immediately put 10 on it - it's had 10 since, currently TI's. The Neck is Maple, Back and Sides are BRW, and while the neck is wide (1 3/8" at the nut) , it is slim. The back is a one-piece BRW. Note the wooden 'wart' on the top - it's a vol control knob for the under-saddle piezo... courtesy of the previous owner who played it in a BG band strung CCGGDDAA...
The current top E is a .009.

[brunello97]

Thanks, Eddie. How come the left side of the back looks radial cut while the right side doesn't? That seems kind of odd in the photo, or is it just the low-res image?

Mick

[Eddie Sheehy]

I'm not sure what you mean. Physically it's symmetrical in shape.

[jdsobol]

I'm not sure what you mean. Physically it's symmetrical in shape.

Talking about the cut of the rosewood--the left flank of the cylinder looks slab sawn while the right side has straight grain like typical quarter-sawn Brazilian. That could just be the way the original blank was to start with.

[jdsobol]

My 1920 sunburst model 202 is now up for sale, btw, on Ebay and listed here in the classifieds:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vega-cylinder-back-mandolin-1920-vintage-sunburst-finished-masterpiece-/131087912592?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

JS

[brunello97]

Thanks, JD, you've asked the question better than I did--and provided a possible answer--though I don't recall seeing such a distinct grain difference across such a section. Interesting looking back wood.

Yours looks mighty mighty by the way.

Mick

[jdsobol]

Thanks, JD, you've asked the question better than I did--and provided a possible answer--though I don't recall seeing such a distinct grain difference across such a section. Interesting looking back wood.

Yours looks mighty mighty by the way.

Mick

Vega doesn't seem to have had the kind of standards for selecting quarter-sawn cuts of rosewood for the cylinder backs as Martin or other guitar makers of the day had for their instruments. I had a rosewood CB once that was completely slab cut, with grain frothing every which way like waves in a bathtub. That may or may not hold a clue as to the pressed vs. carved question....

And thanks!

[Eddie Sheehy]

The wavy part of the grain overlaps the center of the cylinder bulge and there's no distinct 'seam' between the straight lines and the waves...

[Tavy]

Here is one of the first (if not the first) Vega ad from 1912 for their new models. Interested to see what folks can work out as string lengths for the mandola and mandocello with the bowlback at the front at 13" and the cylinder back mandolin behind it a a little under 14"

Here's what I came up with assuming the bowl back on the left is 13":

Flatback 13", yes really the same scale as the bowlback.
Picolo 11"
Mandola 14.9", probably 15" is the right answer?
'cello 25.4", may be 25.5" guitar scale length?
Bass 41.5.

[Jim Garber]

I believe that the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra has a good variety of cylinder back instruments. Paul Ruppa is the Vega expert there. They have at least a cello, mandola, and bass along with the std mandolins. I don't know about the 10-stringers and the piccolo.

[Graham McDonald]

Thanks John, I'm confused now :) I have multiple references to a slightly less than 14" scale for the 20* model mandolins, and I have seen measurements range from 350-355mm!
Joseph, could you measure the nut-12th fret distance on your 202 before it gets sold off?

Back to some more measuring in photoshop and an email to Mr Ruppa is in order.

Thank you all for your input and ideas

[Eddie Sheehy]

Walt (Gypsy1), what scale length did you use for your replica. Did you take the scale length from the 202 I lent you?

[jdsobol]

Thanks John, I'm confused now :) I have multiple references to a slightly less than 14" scale for the 20* model mandolins, and I have seen measurements range from 350-355mm!
Joseph, could you measure the nut-12th fret distance on your 202 before it gets sold off?



Graham--from nut-12th fret is 6 & 7/8. which would make the scale length 13 & 3/4".
Joseph

[Charles Johnson]

I owned a Rigel cylinder back mandolin. It was one of the strongest sounding oval holes I have played. Very sweet sound but very powerful.

I called Pete Langdell for more info. He indicated the Rigel was carved from one very large piece of wood, but the Vega production models were pressed. He apparently took at least one apart to ascertain the details.

[Jim Nollman]

I've been interested in these Vega CB's for years now, but for some reason I've never sprung for one. That one on EBay (discussed in this thread) caught my interest once again, which has led me to this thread.

The Brazilian ten-string CB looks gorgeous, except I'm not much interested in a ten string. I prefer the bells and whistles on that one vs the much plainer one now on EBay.

Can any of you comment on the difference in tone I might expect between a mahogany CB and a Brazilian one? Did Vega also make them from maple? Can anyone here post a photo of a top-of-the-line CB with all the premier fixings? I'd love to see it.

I'm getting the idea here that these old Vegas vary tremendously in tone, plus in fit and finish, from instrument to instrument. Seems like one more case of the wise buyer playing several of them before choosing one.

[Django Fret]

Hi Jim, here are some pictures of my maple back CB style 205 (one below the top of the line 207 but has a lot of the same "Trimmings"). I had a rosewood backed one at the same time, but in my opinion the maple was much louder and had a much richer tone.

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[BradKlein]

The pearl grommets around the tuning posts on the 207 make all the difference. ;)

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[Rick Turner]

Having owned about 20 Howe Orme instruments in my time, and still having 7 or 8 (depending on your definition re. condition!), I can say pretty unequivocally that A) they were not built by Vega, but at least some were probably built as "Orme" instruments in Ottawa, Canada, and B) the cylinder tops were steam bent, not carved. There was no Vega company when Howe Ormes were patented and at least were first made. We do know that the Elias Howe company had a team of luthiers doing repairs and restorations on "vintage instruments", and Elias Howe himself was one of America's first vintage instrument dealers, making yearly trips to Europe to buy violins and anything else that tickled his fancy. This would have been in the 1870s on up to about 1890 or so. Nobody seems to be sure of when HO production ceased, but it's not out of the realm of probability that luthiers from the Elias Howe Company drifted over to the Vega factory. These luthiers all knew one another, just the way we do now. One in particular, Per Andenberg, seems to have worked for Bay State, Vega, Elias Howe, and who knows where else. Side note...a piano tech friend of mine thinks that the HO guitar neck tilt adjusting bolts are identical to 1890s Chickering piano keyboard adjusting screws.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks for posting here, Rick. I did always wonder about what, if any, connection there was between H-O and Vega. The guitars esp were very similar as far as I can tell. And I wonder how Vega, coming later (thanks for that correction), would be able to manufacture their cylinder guitar without violating Edward Howe's patent (http://www.minermusic.com/eliashowe.htm#patent1).

[jdsobol]

Having owned about 20 Howe Orme instruments in my time, and still having 7 or 8 (depending on your definition re. condition!), I can say pretty unequivocally that A) they were not built by Vega, but at least some were probably built as "Orme" instruments in Ottawa, Canada, and B) the cylinder tops were steam bent, not carved. There was no Vega company when Howe Ormes were patented and at least were first made. We do know that the Elias Howe company had a team of luthiers doing repairs and restorations on "vintage instruments", and Elias Howe himself was one of America's first vintage instrument dealers, making yearly trips to Europe to buy violins and anything else that tickled his fancy. This would have been in the 1870s on up to about 1890 or so. Nobody seems to be sure of when HO production ceased, but it's not out of the realm of probability that luthiers from the Elias Howe Company drifted over to the Vega factory. These luthiers all knew one another, just the way we do now. One in particular, Per Andenberg, seems to have worked for Bay State, Vega, Elias Howe, and who knows where else. Side note...a piano tech friend of mine thinks that the HO guitar neck tilt adjusting bolts are identical to 1890s Chickering piano keyboard adjusting screws.

Wasn't Andenberg supposed to have been involved with building the Pollmann mandoline-banjos as well?
Joseph

[Jim Nollman]

Thanks for posting those pictures. They are such beautiful instruments. I'd love to hear a side-by-side comparison of 3 or 4 of them including the maple and the rosewood. I also wouldn't mind comparing them with a few Bacons as well. The two brands share a somewhat similar two-point look.

[Graham McDonald]

Thanks for posting here, Rick. I did always wonder about what, if any, connection there was between H-O and Vega. The guitars esp were very similar as far as I can tell. And I wonder how Vega, coming later (thanks for that correction), would be able to manufacture their cylinder guitar without violating Edward Howe's patent.

US Patents last (or lasted) 14 years I think, so an 1897 patent expired in 1911, shortly before Vega brought out the cylinder back models.

I have seen mention that Anderberg's workshop was one of a couple of makers of the Pollmann mandolin-banjos working at different times. He might also have been involved in assembling the second iteration of the Merrill aluminium mandolins as well.

cheers

[Jim Garber]

Thanks for posting those pictures. They are such beautiful instruments. I'd love to hear a side-by-side comparison of 3 or 4 of them including the maple and the rosewood. I also wouldn't mind comparing them with a few Bacons as well. The two brands share a somewhat similar two-point look.

Those Bacon are carved top instruments and prob more comparable to Lyon & Healy ABCs and even Gibsons rather than other cant-topped mandolins. Perhaps comparing to the other L&H flattop models would be more appropriate and less "apple-orangey" comparison.

[Jim Garber]

Vega 207 mandolin (http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/72575) just came on in the classifieds.