Seeking Top finish repair/redo and neck reshaping advice

[lottarope]

Stepped on the cat, knocked it off the table, lamented, considered options. I was getting ready to sell this mando which is a really good sounding mando for one in its price range because the c shaped neck agrivates my thumb so its not a good choice for me for a beater. I don't know what this does for the resale price but it can't be good (ideas?). Therefore I'm considering sanding the finish off, dying it turquoise, french polishing it, and reshaping the neck. I haven't done any of these things before but As a custom saddle maker finicky time consuming things done with hand tools are right up my alley. Advice suggestions would be welcome. This thing isn't something super valuable like a Skip Kelly its a Michael Kelly I don't think I screw it up too bad can I and what would I be out if I do?

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[Perry Babasin]

I think if it already sounds good, it is a very good candidate for a refinish. The word on the cafe is to never refinish. The consummate (moderate) rebel that I am, I fly in the face of conventional wisdom quite frequently... Actually if you don't think you will ever sell it, and consider it basically worthless, play around with it. You will learn a lot about mandolins and their construction by messing around with them. I took an old MK "O" and refinished it. I love the thing now, it is not a beater, I play it almost exclusively now and it sounds good, way better than before. In fact for me it was so successful, I recently started working on a derelict "The Loar" 600 to see how a ff hole works out for me.

I have to tell you however I am more impressed with the woods and construction quality of the MK believe it or not! The only thing is that the finish on the MKs are bullet proof (at least mine was). Nothing but skillfully applied brute force would move the thick polymer coating. Strippers and solvents would not touch it, chipping scraping and sanding was the only way. My The Loar finish softened with strategically applied lacquer thinner and scraped and sanded off rather easily. Not the MK. I know you'll get other opinions but I would encourage you to do it. Particularly as I say if you don't intend on selling it and are willing to write it off. Have fun and keep the finish thin! Mine is pictured in my avatar...

[Perry Babasin]

Ah another issue, the neck. Is the D shape too shallow? You can't add material to make it a V shape, maybe you should patch the finish, sell it and get another mandolin. The top can be refinished relatively easily, but it definitely isn't worth trying to replace the neck or having it replaced.

[William Smith]

I wouldn't refinish it if it was mine, not really worth it. I like wear and that little scratch aint nothing in my eyes, you could sand the neck to what better fits ya and then you have a real good beater/campy type mandolin that you said sounds good so enjoy it because as is or refinished you would never be able to sell for or more than what you paid for it.
I think way too many people out there and here on the café are way too worried on what a mandolin looks like, as long as it sounds great that should be the only real concern that matters instead of scratches and wear!

[lottarope]

Bluegrasser it's pretty bad, not just a scratch it's like the the finish tore and chipped. I don't mind a few dings... Stuff happens... But could I sell it like this? If so how much would I need to deduct from the asking price? Sound wise it's really good compared to other mandos I have tried in it's price range(Loars, Fenders,etc. In the $500-800). Compared to my Arches mando it's pretty weak and muddy. Of course it cost a LOT less. I've always thought it had something to do with the bullet proof finish and thickness of the top that Perry mentioned. A good sanding might do it some good.
Perry as far as the neck I'm not sure if the depth of the neck or shape was the problem. I know I need a flat spot for the joint of my thumb. I play a lot barred and the joint in my thumb would swell up and get real sore. I'ld probably have to remove about 3/16" off the round of the neck. The neck shape was the main reason (or at least the one I used) to justify buying a better mandolin. Can the neck stand this much removal and stay straight?

[Perry Babasin]

I'm not sure about the neck, 3/16" might be a lot, it does have a truss rod however. If I were going to do it, I would take a chance and sand a recurve which would cover the area that is scratched pretty well. I did it on mine and I believe that is why it has such improved sound, that along with the much lighter tru-oil finish.

1.You have a less desirable brand with not that great resale value...
2.You're pretty handy...
3.You have a resource for all kinds of finishing and building information here at the cafe...
4.You're just doing the top anyway.

If you can afford to experiment I think you should do it - BUT - go into it realizing that you might totally ruin it. If you are OK with that, I say go for it, it is fun, and it can be worth it...

[lottarope]

I sure am leaning toward going for it.
Question1: if im going to the work of refinishing the top why not just go whole hog and do the whole thing?
Question 2: any idea what this may cost (ballpark figure) to refinish? I don't want to get more into the polishing materials/ varnish than the mando is worth.
Question 3: Perry what grit would you start with?

[Perry Babasin]

Absolutely NFI for any of the products mentioned in the following foolishness. OK... if you've got the time and inclination and written off the original cost of the mandolin, the project can be very rewarding. I have handled two Pac-Rim mandolins in the white and have been very impressed with the construction and tonewood quality. The finishes have just been too heavy, however the MK was much heavier than "The Loar". Is it worth it? For me it was an experiment and my resale value was nil. I could tell that the woods were great. It was worth it for me, I had a dull sounding wall hanger and now I have a mandolin.



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Here is the link to the original thread about this project...
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?85179-Michael-Kelly-hidden-treasure&highlight=treasure

1. The Scroll is a beautiful but evil invention. If this classic intricate Victorian design were varnished, it would be easy to get the old finish off but it's not. Heck you could use a pen knife like Bill (see #3). Because it is dipped in a modern catalyzed shell it is a bear to get off around these graceful curves. It is very time consuming. Me, I'm a glutton for punishment so I love it, but I must say I think I'm ready to build one from a kit and start completely clean and easily measurable for voicing and finishing...

2. You already have all your hardware although in the process you will definitely need a new bridge and it needs to be fitted well. I just bought one of the "Golden Gate" bridges (which is actually quite nice) but you might want to spring for a "Cumberland Acoustics". The finish cost is really mostly time and effort, and it depends which way you feel comfortable going. Color can be applied in a variety of ways. If you choose lacquer and you don't have a spray rig, Stewmac has nitrocellulose spray cans for $12 and they work pretty well. I researched finish options for the MK for a long time here at the cafe, and decided the easiest best results would come from alcohol based aniline dyes, a light coat of shellac to seal, and carefully applied tru-oil ($10 - for a 3oz bottle that will do a mandolin). For the one I'm working on currently I just bought a set of dry aniline dye powder for $25. From what I can tell there are several ways to get an acceptably thin resonant finishes and most are fairly material inexpensive, and, depending on which way you go, time intensive. You need to research and decide for yourself which way you want to go weighing results to cost and time...

3. Take it a section at a time. Use a variety of scraping tools, small files, wood carving tools, and even the dreaded pen knife. Start in the junction areas where there is a thick build-up and chip it out. Once you get a start much of the finish will chip off. Be aware and careful of the binding, I messed up a couple of spots by getting too excited and working too intensely. I actually worked with 80 grit to move the top coats and when wood started showing 100. I have a Multi-tool that has a small orbital sanding head, and I carefully used that when I could, but otherwise sanded with the grain whenever possible. I went from 80, 100, 150, 220. I used a butter knife wrapped in sandpaper in the scroll area. Here is my new project, a little blurry but available light to see what I have been doing to the top. I worked over the scroll and shaped the recurve, ready to add color and finish.


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[lottarope]

Perry are you aware of any good links on reshaping the recurve?

[bratsche]

Stepped on the cat, knocked it off the table, lamented, considered options. I was getting ready to sell this mando which is a really good sounding mando for one in its price range because the c shaped neck agrivates my thumb so its not a good choice for me for a beater. I don't know what this does for the resale price but it can't be good (ideas?).

Just wanted to know, is the cat okay? :(

bratsche

[lottarope]

Boy that finish is thick. When you flake it it wants to take wood with it. Hard to believe it could ever have been scratched.

[lottarope]

The cat like to mill around the saddleshop and frequently get his tail stepped on. He howls like bloody murder til your foot comes off then starts right back into rubbing on your legs. He wasn't very popular for a couple days. Right now he's staring (supervising) and purring while we chip and sand on it.

[Perry Babasin]

Lottarope... PM

[lottarope]

Perry thanks for info. Here's the first plunge. I know my level of ignorance is huge but this really reminds me of saddle making. I can't hardly do a worse job than a factory job. The hardest thing was just to keep the wood from tearing up when the finish chipped off. As I'm doing demolition to the top finish I'm wondering if the back plate needs to vibrate or just bounce sound to the top plate to make it vibrate. This thing has got to sound better when you tap the top now you can feel a huge difference in how it vibrates.
A way here it is after day one. Now I better get to braiding some mando straps and quit monkeying with this for a while. 108057

[testore]

I haven't read everything so forgive me for being lazy. But if there isn't anything more than a slight crack and finish being chipped off relax. This is a VERY easy fix. This is an extremely common repair for violins. It's not very expensive and if it is properly done can almost disappear.

[testore]

Oh crap looks like I'm too late.

[Bill Snyder]

Gary, this mandolin might have been a bit harder to repair the finish on. It had a poly finish on it. From reading I suspect the main reason for the stripping is the OP really wanted to try his hand at this.

[Perry Babasin]

Nice! That's looking really good, good luck with it!

[David Houchens]

Taking 3/16 off the neck might be getting close to the truss rod. Go slowly.

[testore]

It doesn't natter what the original varnish is. A simple retouch is all it needed. Nothing as drastic as a refinish. Oh well.

[Bill Snyder]

Not a varnish. Polyester. It is impervious to sand paper and polish and other finishes do not stick to it.
But I think the real point is he WANTED to refinish it.

[bratsche]

Yeah, and it looks like he did a good job so far with the removal. If I were in his place I'd just keep going, and remove it all. No doubt it will sound much better refinished with something thinner.

bratsche

[testore]

Still doesn't matter. I could have retouched it in 45 minutes. I've done it many times.

[David Houchens]

I have removed thick hard finish from a lower end mandolin. When refinished with lacquer the difference in the quality of tone was tremendous. Keep going. I'd dare to say you'll be glad you did.

[lottarope]

Testore, just out of curiosity how would you have fixed it?