Genres of music having a historical connection and significance

[TheBlindBard]

Hello, all
So, it's 6:30 and I was reading a story online that made me think a little:
There are so many different genres of music, ranging throughout history, things that have evolved from one another and been turned into an entirely new genre. Also things that have stayed in their original form, but remain no less appealing.
The main types of music I'm thinking about are jazz, blues and some Celtic tunes.
Personally, with blues, I can relate because the blues is often about bad things happening in life. Whether that be losing your job or loosing a girl.
With Celtic, I can enjoy the tunes, but don't feel as deep a connection to them. I often hear so many people interpreting Celtic tunes in such a beautiful and poetic way that I just... can't see sometimes. I was told a while ago by a friend that lots of Celtic tunes were about Ireland during a particular time. They often sang about a girl, who, usually was a personification of Ireland the country.
I am still looking for good Jazz to listen to, so, can't speak for this particular genre as much.
Any thoughts, feelings. I apologize if this isn't an appropriate topic for the forum.

[Randi Gormley]

If you're going to speak about music's historical significance, you need to mention religious music, from early tribal drumming to klezmer and beyond. A lot of feeling goes into/went into some pretty stellar tunes and songs, both sad and joyous. just a thought.

[Jim Garber]

Andrew: I am not too clear on what it is you are asking. Even among the three genres you mention there are vast differences in approaches to playing. Some players might try to stick to an older style and some put some contemporary flavor into it. For instance, Irish Traditional music did not really have guitars, banjos, bouzoukis and mandolins until only a few decades ago. Also Celtic as a genre covers Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx (I think), Shetland and Breton musics. Even in Ireland alone, there are differences in styles and tunes and songs from one region to another. And some of the Scottish music came over to Cape Breton in Nova Scotia which has its own tradition.

Blues goes back to the first slaves coming into the US. There are field hollers and blues played on banjos. Then blues played on guitar, piano, harmonica, fiddle and (of course) mandolin. Fingerpicking and slide styles. Then electric blues. There are also more subtle regional differences in say North Carolina Piedmont and Mississippi, etc.

The same goes for jazz: early traditional styles thru to swing, bebop, post-bop and beyond and some hybrid styles.

My suggestion is to listen to a bunch of music, as much as possible and see what you like.

[calden]

I think you are overthinking about the genres. I agree with Jim - just listen and listen lots to lots of different music and when you find something that intrigues you listen to it some more. Forget about where it comes from or what category it belongs in.

Carlos

[TheBlindBard]

Well, hmm,
I'm not quite sure what I was asking-thinking, exactly. My cup of tea has pulled back the fog of the morning.
I guess I was asking: "For all these unique flavors and styles of music, is it something you had to be there for to fully understand?"
I was also partly hoping to start up a discussion about music and history, both things I love and enjoy.
I've yet to do research into all those different styles, but will do so later today :)

--edit--
As far as religion and music goes, yes, that is a huge part of it, for sure, whether you have tribal drumming (which I love, by the way), or music in a church. Religion and music are two things that go hand-in-hand in my opinion.
To open up the floor, a little, any interesting facts-tidbits about music and history that people have, or historical facts about genres-tunes, feel free to post them.
Sorry for the rambling direction this may take. I was partly curious about any connections these two subjects may have.

[Tim2723]

One thing to be watchful of with 'Celtic' music is that much of the modern version doesn't have anything to do with the Celtic peoples. You can buy a lot of CDs with a willowy young woman on the cover, her long hair and gossamer gown blowing in the wind of a rugged coastline. They have names like Celtic Journey and Celtic Romance, etc. They are mostly New Age music played on synthesizers.

Interestingly, this new icon of the Celtic world is known collectively as 'The Windswept Woman'. She is pictured variously posed in a rocky, craggy place (like the coast of New Zealand), or a lush green place (like a potato field in Idaho).

[Jim Garber]

There are connections with the various music genres. Old time music derives from the ballads and tunes brought over from the British Isles. Bluegrass was initially created by Bill Monroe who took elements of old time music and blues and put them together with some of his own compositions. Jazz developed more or less from gospel and blues and ragtime.

There: now you have a few more genres to explore. There is a big wide and wonderful world of music out there.

[tmsweeney]

I don't think you have to know anything about particular piece of music to play it, but I think you might satisfy your curiosity by delving into ethno-musicology. People Like Bartok and Kodaly in Eastern Europe, Vaughn Williams and Alan Stivell in the British Isles, Alan Lomax in the United States were collectors and analyzers of the different folk music that contributed to national identity and to the compositions of modern masters. There is the Ken Burns documentary on Jazz, I've seen some good ones on Bluegrass, but they don't go back very far to the British isle and blues music that influenced it. If you are looking for Jazz Personally I recommend Charles Mingus AH Um.

[dusty miller]

Well the OP didn't mention old time stuff so maybe I'm straying a little off topic but it does have to do with music and historical events. General George Armstrong Custer loved to have the band play Gary Owen while going into battle and also had them play The Girl I left Behind Me while leaving the fort to meet his doom at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. I'm into history as well and found this interesting and the fact they had a band with them roaming the plains at times. Sorry if I went to far off topic.

[M.Marmot]

Time certainly can alter a tune or a song - a new audience brings a new understanding to a piece - and sometimes origins, original intentions are lost and forgotten.

But, is it necessary to understand those original intentions or history to connect with a song or tune?

No, i don't think so.

I listen to a wide variety of music and i cannot say that i am well versed in the nuances and history of all of it but that does not stop me enjoying it. In fact i make it a point to go and search out genres i am unfamiliar with just so i can put myself through the exercise of coming to terms with their unfamiliar forms and demands.

Before understanding, the first reaction to music and song is through the bodily sensation of hearing it - hearing goes before through and beyond understanding - and sometimes this is all it takes for me to be moved, to connect with a piece.

However, there are other pieces and genres that i have to work to get to know - at first they prove too foreign, to shocking for my ears but after more listening and some research, then i can understand the musical choices, relate to the intentions and find my way into the music.

Sometimes, i get the impression that folks think that music should be easy - it should be a visceral reaction - and if its not instantly appealing then they won't listen to it again. I feel that to hear music will always need some work, some genres unfurl themselves slower, thanks to the listener's disposition - sometimes it simply takes work and effort to understand them.

Whether a person wants to put that work in is simply up to them - but for my part i can say that i have never regretted any efforts that i have put into exploring music - any effort i have put in has been more than repaid by what i have learned and what i hear in return.

[TheBlindBard]

--that little tid-bit about the band roaming the plains was particularly amusing.
I was looking for anything and everything pertaining to history and music that people were willing to contriibute.
*shrug* I can be kind of weird. I like to know where things came from, and how they got at the point they are at now.

[Bill Snyder]

TBB, I don't really see this as much different than people on this forum musing about their 100 year old instruments and what it must have "seen" in its lifetime. They want a connection to previous owners through the instrument. I think your looking for a connection through the songs. Not so weird.

[calden]

Okay - good question.

The answer to "is it something you had to be there for to fully understand?" is a big resounding NO! You might not "hear"something in Celtic music that someone who grew up with hears, but then you might hear something unique and valuable that they do NOT hear.

I lived in China in 1986 and took an interest in Chinese Traditional Music. I learned to play a couple of instruments and continue to do so from time to time. Holy geez, when I am in the middle of a tune I feel like I have died and gone to heaven. I feel the melody in my bones, and when I listen to acknowledged masters play something I am right there with the feelings, emotion, thoughts, and am totally engrossed. I sure as hell did not grow up in a small peasant village in Northern China, and my expectations of music and patterns and chord changes and melody arrangements come from a totally different place. I know that I thus "hear" the music differently, but I am totally moved by a lot of it and almost lust after it at times.

Historical information about a genre or tune may help you appreciate it better, but it is not at all necessary, IMO. If anything, one just needs to unplug yourself from YOUR cultural expectations of what music is "supposed" to be and sound like. Ever hear Tuvan throat singing? Chinese Opera? Hmong grass harmonicas? It is beautiful music and moving if you don't "expect" it to be something it is not. If you listen with rigidly Western ears and notions of melody, harmony, and singing it sounds harsh and unmusical.

IMO.


Carlos

Carlos

[Jim]

Folk music and protest songs have some interesting history to reseach I'm sure.

[jaycat]

. . . Personally I recommend Charles Mingus AH Um.

+1. Also Blues and Roots and Mingus Dynasty.

Add some Monk, Miles Davis, Coltrane, and Charlie Parker and you'll know all you need to know about jazz (more or less).

[Jim Garber]

+1. Also Blues and Roots and Mingus Dynasty.

Add some Monk, Miles Davis, Coltrane, and Charlie Parker and you'll know all you need to know about jazz (more or less).

What????? no Armstrong, Bix, Benny Goodman, Django Reinhardt, and so on...

[catmandu2]

The more involved you become with music, you are apt to research. Our research takes us ever further back in time. You may find yourself becoming interested in increasingly older forms--originating from Africa and the "mid East," and Asia--from whence it began. The further you go, the more interesting you'll discover

[jaycat]

What????? no Armstrong, Bix, Benny Goodman, Django Reinhardt, and so on...

Also good.

[catmandu2]

Did/do we have to "be there" to have affinity?

Depending on how one is inclined to "think"... you might say, that--we were all there, at one time..

[M.Marmot]

One thing to be watchful of with 'Celtic' music is that much of the modern version doesn't have anything to do with the Celtic peoples. You can buy a lot of CDs with a willowy young woman on the cover, her long hair and gossamer gown blowing in the wind of a rugged coastline. They have names like Celtic Journey and Celtic Romance, etc. They are mostly New Age music played on synthesizers.

Interestingly, this new icon of the Celtic world is known collectively as 'The Windswept Woman'. She is pictured variously posed in a rocky, craggy place (like the coast of New Zealand), or a lush green place (like a potato field in Idaho).

I'd imagine that this windy woman is modern marketed re-imagining of the 'Aisling' - the dream woman, that Mr.Bard referred to, who usually represented 'Ireland' and who appears in many songs lamenting a lost ideal. She was often to be found on the sea shore or on the banks of some cold purling stream.

[multidon]

I have found this to be a very enjoyable and interesting thread. Thanks to everyone for all the ideas and viewpoints. If I could add just a little bit. My folk music band the Pic a Longs specializes in doing presentations fir community gtouos which combine music with history. To us music and history are linked. Music is always a reflection of the era from which it emerged. The internet makes doing research on a song so easy and we never fail to find fascinating facts about the composer and his or her times. Sometimes our audiences want us to talk about the history along with playing. We have done this for church groups senior centers civik war groups and historical societies. Other groups just want us to play. We aim to please. But can you just enjoy music for musics sake? Of course. But foing a little historical research on the music makes it a morr fulfilling experience in my opinion.

[Eddie Sheehy]

All Genres have a historical connection and significance. Fifty years from now Rap will be revered ... they even have their own radio station - K-RAP....

[Polecat]

This is an interesting thread, thanks for starting it, Blind Bard.
The word "Celtic" has been so variously used, misused and abused, that I'm uncomfortable using it in any context, be it music, art, language or whatever. To the Greeks, "Keltoi" were anyone coming from West of Macedonia, which would make a lot of music we think of as "Balkan" celtic by their definition. Is an Irish Polka celtic, slavic, or some kind of ####### child of both "traditions"? There is no evidence that the tribes of central Europe as described by Julius Caesar, or the early "celtic" Christians thought of themselves as "Celts", especially given that the english word "Celt" was first coined in the 18th century! I prefer to talk about scottish, irish, breton etc. music. Of course there is cross-pollination between these styles and they have a lot in common, but getting bogged down in definitions tends, in my experience to detract rather than enhance the enjoyment of music.
That said, being aware that "St James Infirmary" is at the modern end of a whole line of interrelated folk songs describing the appalling effects of venerial disease in the age when it could not be treated does give me some pleasure (and something to tell the audience which, if properly put, will get a laugh), as does the fact that "Oh the dreadful wind and rain" also exists in Hungarian, and that the harmonic basis of Richard Hell's "Blank Generation" can be traced back as least as far as King Henry VIII of England's "Greensleeves" (the band combines Blank Generation with Monk's "Friday the Thirteenth" - Punk meets subversive Bebop all wrapped in a rennaissance gossamer; again something with which to entertain an audience).
I'm babbling...

[Tobin]

Oh, don't get me started on the modern "Celtic" stuff! Much of it is indeed New-Age poppycock with absolutely no real tie to history or culture. And it's not just in the music, either. There is an entire industry of "Celtic" stuff that's meant to appeal primarily to Americans who want a romanticized image of a faraway land, without actually having to know anything about it. It often becomes a mish-mash of Scottish and Irish traditions (maybe some occasional Welsh thrown in for variety), but in a way that neither Scots nor Irish recognize it. Much of this phenomenon is rooted in the revivalist "Pan-Celtic" solidarity movement, which is as much political as it is commercial. This, for example, is largely responsible for Americans thinking that the Irish wear kilts.

Of course, when it comes down just to the music, it doesn't necessarily mean that a person can't enjoy it for what it is. But a lot of people tend to let Celtic music speak to their soul, as if they are somehow tied by ancient blood to this vision of a culture which, in fact, is a recent invention. People WANT to be emotional about cultural music.

But anyway, there are a lot of labels applied to "Celtic" or even "Irish Traditional" music which aren't necessarily correct either. And while a lot of it is GREAT music, and no history is needed in order to appreciate it, I do think that in many cases knowing the history of a particular song is very important. Songs like The Foggy Dew or The Skye Boat Song come from completely different places, in completely different times. Each has a history that goes far beyond the words, and it can be very enlightening to research the background of them. For me, it does make the music more important and weighty when I know what it's really about.

[allenhopkins]

...I guess I was asking: "For all these unique flavors and styles of music, is it something you had to be there for to fully understand?"...

No. Well, yes -- or, maybe…

You can't "be there." You're not a 17th-century blind Irish harper. Probably not even descended from one. Does that mean you can't "understand" Planxty George Brabizon? Understand in what way? How to play it? Its history? What it means -- or meant?

We've had long discussions (elsewhere) on whether "white folks can play the blues," and similar. Is a contemporary African-American guitarist somehow "closer" to Robert Johnson than his European- (or Asian-) American counterpart?

In my experience, researching and learning the historical context and origins of a particular musical idiom, is helpful in determining how to approach its contemporary interpretation and performance. One wants to avoid mis-interpreting a style, playing the music in a way that clashes or distorts its original background and intention. And, honestly, there's a lot of that stuff going around -- musicians playing a type of music with insufficient sensitivity and respect for its "roots."

But in the end we are the musicians we are; we have our own "historical context" within which we must make our musical choices. We have our own preferences as to what "speaks to us," and what we decide to play, based on our individual skills, the audiences we seek, and the overall environment within which we're playing. We can't be entirely captives of any genre's origins and history.

Social scientists have struggled for years with the issue of how much a part of a group one must be, to really study and understand it. Can Europeans or Americans really usefully study African tribal culture, or will their "outsider" status preclude real understanding? -- e.g. Someone unkindly said that the reductio ad absurdum would be that "only insects can truly study insects." We can't be insects, or Elizabethan Celtic harpers, rural 1920's Mississippi blues singers, Harlem be-boppers from 1949, etc, etc. Doesn't mean we're prevented from "understanding" -- and performing -- the music they created.

IMHO, anyway.

[JeffD]

I have a gigantic preference for a tune over a song. With a song one can get locked into what the words mean, and its hard to find other ways of enjoying it. While a tune is open to a million interpretations and associations.

Its a never ending journey. Some of the speed bumps along the way - well the biggest is that some of the best music is hard to love upon first hearing. Sometimes it takes a little experience or history or context, or listening to finally "get it", at which point you can fall in love with it. I was this way with serious tango music.

So for example, tango is very rhythmic but I found it hard, at first, to appreciate, and now I love it. Ragtime, by comparison, is very rhythmic, and I fell in love immediately, and now I love it.

So if you love a particular kind of music and feel a connection right off, well that's great. When you go after the history and context it can only strengthen the connection. But be open to the idea that you might not like it right away but down the road when you have some context and history it may rock your world.

The second biggest speed bump is how obscure or how popular a genre is. I try very hard to ignore this. I think it is just as ridiculous to go after a type of music because it is obscure or to dislike a type of music right off because it is popular, as it is to sycophantically follow the popular genres. Try and figure out what you like, whatever it is, for what ever reason. The connection is very personal, and has (or should have) very little to do with what most people think.

[Jim Garber]

In my musical journey I was first attracted to the instrument (fiddle, then mandolin) and was then drawn to the genres of music that were played on them. Since I was just starting out with only a background in guitar and piano, fiddle tunes were where I began. There was a New England style teacher up in Cambridge who ran a group class so I got to know other beginners. Thru them I learned about the various styles of fiddling. The other thing that put me in the direction I ended up was the social aspect of the music. I met some wonderful lifelong friends playing old time and other musics. I think it all feeds on itself: learn and play the music, get obsessed with it and learn more about it and play more. Got to festivals, parties etc where others are playing the music you love.

[Alex Orr]

In terms of jazz...

That's a really big genre, and to some extent (in it's earliest days) it also included a LOT of popular blues artists.

I never really appreciated, nor really knew anything about, hot jazz and big band stuff until I moved to DC and started tuning into Hot Jazz Saturday Night on WAMU (http://wamu.org/programs/hot_jazz_saturday_night). Every week, for decades, Rob Bamberger has hosted this wonderful show that is not just an amazing tour through the world of jazz from the '20s-'40s, but is also a serious classroom on the air, as Bamberger is also a highly regarded jazz historian. I'm not saying you can't appreciate all this wonderful music without the corresponding history, but being both a history and music geek, I found it really helped to draw me into this wonderful music. Give it a listen, each week's episode is available to stream for the week that follows.

[EdHanrahan]

For historical perspective in the =GRAND= scheme of things, let's remember that at first there were only "folks" running around looking for food and hiding from saber-toothed tigers. Thus, there was only "folk" music.

Then they got hungry(er) and implored the Bringer of Rain and/or Herds and/or Schools of Fish to look kindly on them (and, hey, could ya maybe stop hurling down so much lightening?), and so there was religious music.

Of course, the earliest folk and religious music sounded nothing like the Weavers or a Bach organ piece but, for 95% of recorded history and 100% of pre-recorded history, Folk and Religious were the only available genres. All else is derivative (yes, even Bluegrass!), and only occupies the last 1% or 2% of human history.

Then again, YMMV!

[neil argonaut]

Oh, don't get me started on the modern "Celtic" stuff! Much of it is indeed New-Age poppycock with absolutely no real tie to history or culture. And it's not just in the music, either. There is an entire industry of "Celtic" stuff that's meant to appeal primarily to Americans who want a romanticized image of a faraway land, without actually having to know anything about it. It often becomes a mish-mash of Scottish and Irish traditions (maybe some occasional Welsh thrown in for variety), but in a way that neither Scots nor Irish recognize it. Much of this phenomenon is rooted in the revivalist "Pan-Celtic" solidarity movement, which is as much political as it is commercial. This, for example, is largely responsible for Americans thinking that the Irish wear kilts.

Of course, when it comes down just to the music, it doesn't necessarily mean that a person can't enjoy it for what it is. But a lot of people tend to let Celtic music speak to their soul, as if they are somehow tied by ancient blood to this vision of a culture which, in fact, is a recent invention. People WANT to be emotional about cultural music.

But anyway, there are a lot of labels applied to "Celtic" or even "Irish Traditional" music which aren't necessarily correct either. And while a lot of it is GREAT music, and no history is needed in order to appreciate it, I do think that in many cases knowing the history of a particular song is very important. Songs like The Foggy Dew or The Skye Boat Song come from completely different places, in completely different times. Each has a history that goes far beyond the words, and it can be very enlightening to research the background of them. For me, it does make the music more important and weighty when I know what it's really about.
Don't want to be overly pedantic, but some Irish folk do wear kilts; admittedly not nearly as many as scottish folk, but I have seen Irish marching bands wearing them, and as far as I know I think it used to be common in Irish dancing too.

I'd tend to agree the "celtic" label is widely misused by and aimed at certain americans, but I can see also how it's easier to say than "music from Ireland, Scotland, north of England and sometimes Galicia, Bretagne, etc" and I suppose it's more accurate than using "Irish Traditional Music" to refer to music that's often from Scotland. I find when I'm in mainland Europe people always call it "celtic music" , and certainly there is a massive connection musically, linguistically, culturally and historically between Scotland and Ireland.
And out of interest, I'm quite sure "the foggy dew" is adapted from an English folk tune originally.

[M.Marmot]

and that the harmonic basis of Richard Hell's "Blank Generation" can be traced back as least as far as King Henry VIII of England's "Greensleeves" (the band combines Blank Generation with Monk's "Friday the Thirteenth" - Punk meets subversive Bebop all wrapped in a rennaissance gossamer; again something with which to entertain an audience).
I'm babbling...

My favourite take on Greensleeves melody would be 'Port of Amsterdam' by Jacques Brel... i loved the song from the first time i heard it heard it covered by Scott Walker, and i love the original version even more when i eventually got to hear it, and then only a few months ago i read that it was based on Greensleeves - at first i thought it could'nt be and then i started to sing them both out and sure enough they're both basically the same.

[foldedpath]

I have a gigantic preference for a tune over a song. With a song one can get locked into what the words mean, and its hard to find other ways of enjoying it. While a tune is open to a million interpretations and associations.

Being an instrumentalist is also a good way to side-step the "authenticity" question, in some genres where that can be an issue due to racial or cross-cultural factors. As an instrumentalist, the only things that matter are your technical chops and your understanding of the genre, in the service of the tune. Nobody will care if you don't sing with the vocal inflection of an itinerant black musician in 1930's Mississippi, or like Sinéad O'Connor singing "Foggy Dew" with the Chieftains, if you're not singing in the first place.
;)

WRT the "historical connection and significance" question... Usually the history of the tune or the original lyrics of the song version doesn't influence my instrumental playing, although there have been a few exceptions. When my fiddler S.O. and I first started learning and playing "Josefin's Dopvals" together, we played it as a slow, somewhat wistful-sounding waltz. That's how we heard it played in local OldTime circles. We later learned it was composed by Roger Tallroth (of the Vasen band) for his niece’s christening. There is nothing sad or wistful about a christening, so we started to play it a bit faster and livelier. More of an upbeat, happy feeling. The tune works either way, I think, but knowing the background steered us into one interpretation over the other.

Knowing the history may not help with other tunes, especially ones written on a sad occasion. There are only so many ways to play "sadly" without slipping into mawkishness. For example, the Shetland tune "Da Slockit Light" was written one night when the composer noticed fewer and fewer house lights at night in his home town, as people had moved away, and this was also shortly after his wife died, no less. It sounds a bit sad and wistful if you just play it fairly straight. It doesn't need any extra layers of syrup, like the way some fiddlers like to milk this tune in sessions.

[JeffD]

I guess I was asking: "For all these unique flavors and styles of music, is it something you had to be there for to fully understand?"


I sincerely hope not. Otherwise we are all caught in our own experiences and unable to relate to anything we haven't experienced. The music can and should evoke feelings in the general listener.

Do we have to have lost someone in a disaster to understand tragedy? Do we have to committed foul murder (or at least be named Willie?) in order to "get" the ballad? Do we all have to have mined coal, or crashed a railroad train, or be a horribly drunk, or unemployed or divorced or homeless. I hope not.

[bjewell]

Interestingly, this new icon of the Celtic world is known collectively as 'The Windswept Woman'. She is pictured variously posed in a rocky, craggy place (like the coast of New Zealand), or a lush green place (like a potato field in Idaho).

The ones in the potato field can give ya some trouble lad, and don't ye forget it...

[bjewell]

Don't want to be overly pedantic, but some Irish folk do wear kilts; admittedly not nearly as many as scottish folk, but I have seen Irish marching bands wearing them, and as far as I know I think it used to be common in Irish dancing too.

I'd tend to agree the "Celtic" label is widely misused by and aimed at certain Americans, but I can see also how it's easier to say than "music from Ireland, Scotland, north of England and sometimes Galicia, Bretagne, etc" and I suppose it's more accurate than using "Irish Traditional Music" to refer to music that's often from Scotland. I find when I'm in mainland Europe people always call it "Celtic music" , and certainly there is a massive connection musically, linguistically, culturally and historically between Scotland and Ireland.
And out of interest, I'm quite sure "the foggy dew" is adapted from an English folk tune originally.

I post under "bjewell" honoring my wonderful grandfather Bertram E. Jewell (b:1888) who did some incredible things in his life. But I'm a Quinn and for the most part Irish, with a mix of Scots, Welsh, English and German like so many other Americans.

It's a slippery slope when we talk about Americans vs. Celts as many, many if not most "Americans" have a substantial amount of Celt blood in their veins, regardless of skin color. One of the little known facts is that the English were selling Irish slaves in the Caribbean before they went on to Africa. The starvations of the mid-18th Century were horrific and those Irish lucky enough to board a boat, not die on the journey or perish in the New World have a deep longing for the roots that were cut by the English.

I've had Irish guys make snide remarks about the "plastic Irish" of the USA while living in Tokyo. And I saw one of those fine fellows get his butt kicked by an American of Irish descent who took great exception to the gentleman’s smirky patter in a bar one night.

So-called "Celt" music seems more often than not played by non-Celts. The Japanese have some terrific so-called Celt bands. I've seen many different peoples play the same 50 tunes in California. And you are right; most "Celt" music is hippie Bee-Ess...

[neil argonaut]

Yeah don't get me wrong, I wasn't by any means trying to have a dig at Americans of Irish or Scottish descent generally, but rather at those here who pander to the Americans (whether of Scottish/Irish descent or not) who think we all wear kilts and run about in castles all the time, who misrepresent and warp the culture to try and make money out of tourism.

[Loretta Callahan]

I'm with you on being able to relate to the Blues, BlindBard. Same with Appalachian, Texas Swing, Bluegrass, and Cajun music. Like food, that music feeds me ... feeds my soul, if you will. It comes from land that I understand and feel. (16 generations before me are all from the South). My listening and playing favorite genre, however, since it was introduced to me, is Irish Traditional. I don't use the word Celtic because I don't really know what it means.

Irish Traditional, along with Scottish and a bit of Norwegian tunes speak to me directly ... in a way I really get ... in the same way I understand the blues, etc.. Those Irish tunes trigger music that's already living in my body and head. The historical connection to me has to do with how it rattles my DNA. It's like my ancestors are talking to me.

Don't want to rain on anybody else's parade, but the harpy, Enya, synthesizer type of music ... even if it's played on a fiddle, bouzouki or a flute makes my skin crawl. If Irish trad doesn't stay within a certain kind rhythm, nuance, and lilt, etc. (I don't have the talent to describe technically what those things are) ... it can migrate to the very insipid ... which throws me into a severe sugar shock. If that music came from my ancestors ... heaven help them .... my meaner ancestors just might have done bad things to them. :whistling:

[Perry Babasin]

Martin Carthy

[M.Marmot]

Martin Carthy

Martin Carthy?

I'll see your Martin Carthy and raise you one Dave Swarbrick

[TheBlindBard]

I left for the day to go bowling (Meh,) and come back to a wonderful topic, where to begin...
I am glad that so many people have enjoyed the topic, and now that I'm reading through it, really enjoying allt he experiences and stories people have shared.
As far as tunes over songs go, I'd like to look into that a little more. Are there any strictly instrumental tunes people would recommend (Irish or not) and their personal interpretations of these tunes?
The only tune I can truly play well: For the Star of County Down, to me, the tune feels like something you could dance to, just, the mental image I get in my head when playing this is a beautiful girl dancing down a dirt road with a guy just shocked at his fortune to love somebody so beautiful. The first few parts (the deeper ones), to me, seem a bit like, something trial and error, the guy's trying to impress this girl, perhaps. The part when it gets higher-pitched makes me think of joy, a happy little jig, then to come back around, feeling genuinely content.

Reading topics like this truly make me proud to be a musician and have the ability to play a couple of instruments. There's just something beautiful about it, far better than painting.

[Beanzy]

Projecting yourself into the frame of mind of those of another time or place can be helpful in getting you to hone in on the essential elements of a genre, but it always runs the danger of being just an exercise in romantic fantasy and self-projection.
If we were to really experience music just as previous times and other cultures would have we would need to find a way to shed our other experiences and knowledge that we have accumulated in our modern existence. Could you ever 'unhear' the blues or the sophistication of modern musical craftsmanship once heard? It is a very useful exercise to try when listening to any music but the result will always be a personal interpretation through your past experiences and knowledge.

I think it's really important to understand how short the historical in music goes and how important it is not to attach too much weight to 'authenticity' in any one genre.
Lyrics go back further than tunes in terms of the accuracy of our knowledge but both are often based on best guesses of academic study. Given even the interpretation of the earliest written chants is based on modern re-interpretations, we have no authentic way of hearing the actual tunes grabbed the Ancient Greeks, rocked the Roman Empire, and have not heard the ditties that distracted the Dark Ages. Our various musical genres are a result of much of it, but the modern interpretation and adaption is what we have for real.
History is important for understanding and emotionally / intellectually satisfying, but I've yet to tap my foot to a thesis (I bet I could to some)

The way I see it every spring the pretty flowers will grow in the mulch from last years dead ones.
Although it takes a good soil to grow beautifully scented flowers, I wouldn't be bending down to sniff the dirt they grow in unless I was a horticulturalist.

As with scent a tune will conjure up images and emotions for you and that is when the real timeless magic happens.
I don't think those human reactions will have changed much for an awful long time and they seem to be shared across cultures.
However some people will prefer the lightly scented wild flowers in their natural surroundings and others the full-bodied blooms cultivated by the specialist and that is the same with music.

We're at an interesting place in history in being pioneers in being able to accurately access the experiences of others who are separated by vast distances or even dead and gone. We're making connections and cross-pollinating in directions no one else has been able to up to the modern era.

[TheBlindBard]

... you put it so beautifully, and I agree with everything you said above. Many good points.
Thank you for such a beautiful and poetic response

[Tobin]

Don't want to be overly pedantic, but some Irish folk do wear kilts; admittedly not nearly as many as scottish folk, but I have seen Irish marching bands wearing them, and as far as I know I think it used to be common in Irish dancing too.


These Irish kilts are an adaptation of Scottish national dress, as an attempt to reinvent and reinvigorate Gaelic culture in Ireland. The driving force behind it was Irish nationalism, and a desire to establish some sense of separation from English culture. There is ample research and documentation showing that this was a politically-motivated campaign, with the main players behind it being very well known. Here is a decent primer on the invention of the Irish kilt (http://www.scottishtartans.org/irish_kilts.htm).

So yes, you will see an occasional Irish kilt, especially with military or civic pipe bands. But it is a fairly recent invention, and not part of traditional Irish culture. The same applies to much of the music that is foisted upon the ears of modern listeners of "Celtic" music.

Of course, it should not dissuade people from enjoying good music. If it's good music, it doesn't matter where it came from. But as this thread is about "historical connection and significance", I do think it is always in the best interest of posterity to understand what's real and what's not.

[Randi Gormley]

The folk music of the past (the Dark Ages, the Greeks etc) may be a closed book, but the official music occasionally survives; I'd like to think that some of the prayers I chant when I indulge in religion go back to the beginning thousands of years before; when I was in college, I took up for a short time with a music group that sang (and taught you how to read) Gregorian (and other) chants from original manuscripts from the Middle Ages. There is a sense of history when you look at and make music from some of these things, to my mind.

[Polecat]

I'm about as comfortable with the word "Authentic" as I am with "Celtic" (see my last post): I am reliably informed that Mozart's contemporaries would have recognized "Rondo a la turca" as "Turkish Music" (and after all, Austrians of the period had had direct if somewhat reluctant contact with Turks on various occasions). If I compare Mozart's composition with my idea of Turkish music (and I've discussed it with a couple of Turkish acquaintances - they're not uncommon in my part of Germany), I find little resemblance, either with the classical or any of the vernacular music I've come across. Does that make "Rondo a la turca" inauthentic? its authentic Amadeus alright. Same goes for Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a la Turk" - I find the connection to Mozart very tenuous, if at all present, but it's a fine piece of cool jazz (if a trifle frantic). Authenticity depends upon the stated aims of the music (and who does that?) for me, the point of the music I play is to affect others emotionally, be it to make them get up and dance or shut up and listen. I'll use any device or trick I know to achieve this aim - whether or not it is "legit" within the genre. By all accounts, Billmon Roe was not above adopting the same strategy (that's one genre I don't attempt to play, Bluegrass), and Robert Johnson, for all that he is revered as "King of the Delta Bluesmen" saw himself first and foremost as a singer and entertainer (songs like "Malted Milk" or "Red Hot" could not by any stretch defined as "Blues", to my way of thinking). Does it matter? I don't think so. Any music that is competently executed and comes from the Heart is valid.
At the same time, the more you know, stylistically, culturally and historically, the better equipped you will be to realize your vision of music. And that vision is very personal - compare, for example, the acoustic styles of two white englishmen, Eric Clapton and Harry Manx, who both play music which has its roots in the Mississipi Delta, one through a study of "early blues style" which is so intense as to be almost academic, the other through learning from some indian dude (I don't mean that in any derogatory sense). Both produce emotionally charged music, but which is closer to the source? And who cares?
On a slightly pedantic note, the kilt was actually invented by a lancastrian (=english) industrialist for his imported scottish workforce because he judged their traditional garb (the plaid) too dangerous to wear in a factory.

[SincereCorgi]

The folk music of the past (the Dark Ages, the Greeks etc) may be a closed book, but the official music occasionally survives...

While we have some notation for some early liturgical music, it unfortunately can tell us little about basic things like tempo, pronunciation and timbre. One interesting medieval musicology experiment I read about was a fella who trained his group of singers in contemporary Macedonian shepherd music, then recorded a lot of early polyphony using those inflections. The idea was that whatever things sounded like in the middle ages, it would be so completely foreign to modern ears that this might at least capture some of the strangeness.

[M.Marmot]

In terms of musical recreations - i do like Benjamin Bagby and Sequentia's attempts to revitalise Medieval and Early music.

I was more than impressed by Mr Bagby's take on 'Beowulf' - where he retells the story of Beowulf in Anglo-Saxon, just himself on stage, storytelling and improvising with an early Anglo-Saxon harp.

I know that for some it may all sound a bit pretentious - but apparently the resulting performance is as visceral and entertaining as anything else you may imagine.

http://bagbybeowulf.com/press/index.html

[JeffD]

One of the things I like about old time music is that it is not all that bluesy. I especially like the stuff that came into being before most musicians were exposed to the blues. Our culture is so saturated with blues progressions and riffs - its ubiquitous. Its lost its impact for becoming familiar. At least to me.

When the music I like is called "corny" or hokey, what is really meant is that there is a distinct lack of any overtly blues progressions. I think the Carter Family original Wildwood Flower perfectly catches this. There is so much that is beautiful and wonderful about that tune that you can see and hear and feel because without the garlic of the blues the subtle flavors, the dill and cilantro, come through.

[Gelsenbury]

I'd tend to agree the "celtic" label is widely misused by and aimed at certain americans, but I can see also how it's easier to say than "music from Ireland, Scotland, north of England and sometimes Galicia, Bretagne, etc" and I suppose it's more accurate than using "Irish Traditional Music" to refer to music that's often from Scotland.

That's exactly how I feel too. It may be best not to open the can of worms about whether Northumbrian music is more English or more Scottish. The Celtic label is hugely problematic when you try to define it intellectually. But it will do the job if you just want to impart a feel for what kind of tune you mean.



Don't want to rain on anybody else's parade, but the harpy, Enya, synthesizer type of music ... even if it's played on a fiddle, bouzouki or a flute makes my skin crawl.

The thing is that Enya, by virtue of her own CV, probably has more right to defend what she does as traditionally inspired than almost any of us. We can be sure that the people who originally played these melodies didn't have synthesizers. But nor did they have mandolins. Folk music gets reinvented by everyone who plays it - that's just its nature. And it's not just about which instruments you use. More than once, I have read on these pages that there is a current trend to play Celtic (there's that word again) dance tunes faster than used to be the case. I'm sure there are parallel debates about the lilt of the rhythm, phrasing, even different keys or variations on the melody. But all the comparisons we can make are relatively short-term because we simply have no audio recording of O'Carolan or his contemporaries. Enya and the Dubliners are both modern interpreters of folk music, as is anyone else who plays these tunes.

By the way, I even feel nostalgic when people talk about "synthesizers". There's a musical tradition there too, albeit a much more recent one.

[M.Marmot]

By the way, I even feel nostalgic when people talk about "synthesizers". There's a musical tradition there too, albeit a much more recent one.

You are not alone - there has been a revival of synth bands in recent years and various electronic dance musicians/producers have been ladling on the synths on their tracks, attempting to catch some of that old time (or should that be new order?) feel.

I don't know why but i went through a spell a few months ago of hunting down various albums that employed synths - anything from Kraftwerk to Kavinsky... it was a blast.

[TheBlindBard]

There is a band I found a while back, they're called "Astral Projection" and do a genre of electronic music called "Goa TRance" mixing old shamanistic drumming patterns and some other cool effects to get some pretty interesting music. Really nice to just relax and let it wash over you.
Synths are cool, a friend is actually trying to buy one, but, I'll stop before I go off-topic. If anybody has advice, though, feel free to message me for more info.

[AlanN]

Fifty years from now Rap will be revered ...

It's revered right now, by the guy next to me at the stop light with his windows open and car shuddering.

[Tim2723]

By the way, I even feel nostalgic when people talk about "synthesizers". There's a musical tradition there too, albeit a much more recent one.

I recall an album entitled Switched-on Bach. I'm sure a few here remember it. It caused a few friends to wonder if Bach would embrace the synthesizer were he alive today. Most agreed that, being the cutting-edge genius of his day, he would quickly take up the instrument. I recall mentioning that Bach did indeed embrace the synthesizer and used it extensively. Countering their incredulous looks and comments I pointed out that the pipe organ is a synthesizer, albeit an acoustic version using a much earlier technology. It produces sounds intended to mimic other instruments and natural sounds, it produces sounds never heard in the natural world, and can combine them in new ways never before encountered. A synthesizer.

So in those terms the tradition isn't all that recent.

[catmandu2]

The thing is that Enya, by virtue of her own CV, probably has more right to defend what she does as traditionally inspired than almost any of us. We can be sure that the people who originally played these melodies didn't have synthesizers. But nor did they have mandolins. Folk music gets reinvented by everyone who plays it - that's just its nature. And it's not just about which instruments you use. More than once, I have read on these pages that there is a current trend to play Celtic (there's that word again) dance tunes faster than used to be the case. I'm sure there are parallel debates about the lilt of the rhythm, phrasing, even different keys or variations on the melody. But all the comparisons we can make are relatively short-term because we simply have no audio recording of O'Carolan or his contemporaries. Enya and the Dubliners are both modern interpreters of folk music, as is anyone else who plays these tunes.

By the way, I even feel nostalgic when people talk about "synthesizers". There's a musical tradition there too, albeit a much more recent one.

Thank you for your intelligent post, Gelsenbury

It could be said that, all our efforts at music-making are “synthesized” products—that is, an aural human expression emulating natural environmental sound, and emanating from traditional forms. I suspect the general objection to “synthesizers” derives from negative associations with stereotype electronic genre style music, and an overt dependence on electronics and high technology (although, basic analog synths are quite simple devices)



One of the things I like about old time music is that it is not all that bluesy. I especially like the stuff that came into being before most musicians were exposed to the blues. Our culture is so saturated with blues progressions and riffs - its ubiquitous. Its lost its impact for becoming familiar. At least to me.

When the music I like is called "corny" or hokey, what is really meant is that there is a distinct lack of any overtly blues progressions. I think the Carter Family original Wildwood Flower perfectly catches this. There is so much that is beautiful and wonderful about that tune that you can see and hear and feel because without the garlic of the blues the subtle flavors, the dill and cilantro, come through.

It depends of course on what you call "blues." The I-IV-V progression of WF and ~90% of Carter Family songs is blues derived, or shares vast commonality with "standard" (American) blues forms. Much of the singing is "bluesy," or derives from "blues" mind, concept, inflection. Yes indeed, as you state--"blues" music or blues-derived music is very prolific

The "Blues" is many faceted. Blues is more than just a I-IV-V 12 bar form with signature scales and modes. Which is why it is so pervasive. There are "blues" forms and sounds around the world--prevalent before American-style blues idioms; these sounds and patterns are infused in our American forms. I suspect you are conceiving "blues" with a somewhat narrow purview, or based on stereotype

We can find vast or deep affinity with a wide variety of musical (and other) forms of human expression by widening our purview. This way we can identify and understand the "exotic"; deep down, we share a great deal of commonality

But I think I get what you're saying--some forms aren't as "bluesy" to the American ear: the Isles music I play on clarsach isn't overtly bluesy in the American idiomatic sense, but convey pathos through a different tonality; the modes and time of flamenco and nubah, much of the forms of continental Africa...overtly bluesy to us, as American music derives profoundly from Africa. The Sephardic, Ashkenazic and tribal forms of Eastern Europe also express a "blues" vernacular, but different from American idioms. Much Scandinavian sounds bluesy...it's all around

[M.Marmot]

My own objection to synth-music is pretty much reserved to when its used for new-age/mystical sound-washes or those 'Celtic/Inca/Indian/Elvish-moods' type of albums.

I had a friend who once swore blind that he could not stand Enya but he could excuse, and actually liked, Clannad - personally i could not make out much of a difference. So one time at a get together i actually found an Enya album and played it for him - but led him to believe it was Clannad - of course he loved it, waxed lyrical about it, until he picked up the album cover... that quietened his cough somewhat.

Speaking personally, i'm not much for Enya or Clannad or anything that smacks of that ilk - i was invited to a Dead Can Dance concert recently but that left me nonplussed - but then i do have a few albums by Vangelis that i'm partial to... even have an album or two by Andreas Vollenweider, so i'm not exactly immune to the charm of a moody synth. And though i do say that i can't abide 'mood' albums i am partial to listening to some ambient albums - theres more than a few Brian Eno albums that i'd recommend to all and sundry.

[Tim2723]

Elvish mood music! Perfect!:))

[TheBlindBard]

The pipe organ as an ancient synth.
I like that. :D

[catmandu2]

My own objection to synth-music is pretty much reserved to when its used for new-age/mystical sound-washes or those 'Celtic/Inca/Indian/Elvish-moods' type of albums.


One thing about humans--we're prolific producers of stuff. Remember Sturgeon's axiom. There is much more to be avoided, than there is to be consumed, intelligently

[JeffD]

It depends of course on what you call "blues." The I-IV-V progression of WF and ~90% of Carter Family songs is blues derived, or shares vast commonality with "standard" (American) blues forms. Much of the singing is "bluesy," or derives from "blues" mind, concept, inflection. Yes indeed, as you state--"blues" music or blues-derived music is very prolific


Well I am not referring to the mindset or subject matter really. I agree that Carter Family, and lots and lots of old time music is centered around the I-IV-V chords. I would maintain, though, that I-IV-V was not derived from the blues, that its been around much longer than that.

Its not the chords used so much as the progression. Someone more musicanalytical than I could better explain what I mean. But I kind of mentally think of it this way, the progression, I I I I IV IV I I V IV I I and the like, and especially especially the V7 I and V7 IV7 I progressions.

Of course there are exceptions at both ends, but to my ear, I like best the OT music that never heard of the blues.

[foldedpath]

My own objection to synth-music is pretty much reserved to when its used for new-age/mystical sound-washes or those 'Celtic/Inca/Indian/Elvish-moods' type of albums.

I hear 'ya, but I would prefer Clannad-ish wishy washy synth over what the kids are doing with synths in EDM (electronic dance music) these days. Ever heard Skrillex? It's sort of an experiment in how far you can take clipped digital noise with a beat, and call it music.

And yeah, I know how much that sounds like a "get off my lawn" old fart's response to new music. I'm probably just not listening to it loud enough, or something. It would be fascinating to bring Bach here in a time machine and get his opinion on that use of the synthesizer. Of course, it will probably sound like stale classical music, compared to whatever they'll be doing 100 years from now.

[catmandu2]

I would maintain, though, that I-IV-V was not derived from the blues, that its been around much longer than that.



One of the things I hope to point out--is that "blues," in all its permutations, is an ancient form

[catmandu2]

It would be fascinating to bring Bach here in a time machine and get his opinion on that use of the synthesizer.

One thing about electronic music, is that it provides for prolific exploration and discovery. Naturally, it will inherently involve high technology. So, much of the music-making will involve electro-mechanic invention. Bach may, or may not, have been inclined to the hardware (er, software) development requisite of new electronic forms. But he likely would have partnered with those who are, so, yes he likely would have been prolific in new genre, today

What I often find particularly alluring is electronic music being produced by those with a foot in traditional music (Stivell, Enya, although, I don't listen to much of her stuff in particular, so many others). Without a bunch of other "qualifying" factors, I like to listen to evocative music. There's some pretty evocative stuff being produced electronically. The "New York school"--Babbit, et al.--Stockhausen, so many were into it. Any "experimentalist" would

About 25-30 years ago, Byrne and Eno did an interesting collaboration for a Martha Graham production called "The Katherine Wheel." They're good at evoking some ancient sounds; both have been influenced by African forms

Synths are simply an awesome (I rarely use the word) tool for producing sound

[JeffD]

One of the things I hope to point out--is that "blues," in all its permutations, is an ancient form

As generally understood, I don't think there was much blues music in the 19th century perhaps a little towards the end.

But I get your point. People have been done wrong and made songs about it for ever.

[catmandu2]

...the OT music that never heard of the blues.

I don't think there is such a thing

[TheBlindBard]

There is another semi-electronic band, called "Afro Celt sound-system" that isn't half bad, they mix african drumming with some traditionally celtic instruments. It's interesting. Some people here may not like it, but, each to his own.
Times like this I wish they made more accessible software synths-- I have a midi keyboard and a computer, tons of music can be made with just that.

[Beanzy]

All this talk of synths and mixing it up has me thinking of two of the most influential synth/orchestral composers for me in the early '90s.
Philip Glass, "Powaqqatsi" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg0rtU1qTxU&feature=share&list=PL80678A84F1365C92
and
Steve Reich "City Life" http://youtu.be/dMcz4jhDWMI

Seeing, or rather feeling, these live was one of those perception shifting moments for me.
The power of the presence live was astounding.

It must have been the same for the early audiences at The Right Of Spring. Imagine going to see a ballet then being confronted with these garish costumes and twitching jerking figures like some out of control tribal dancers driven by forces external to their bodies, like demented demons.
http://youtu.be/jF1OQkHybEQ

[foldedpath]

One of the things I hope to point out--is that "blues," in all its permutations, is an ancient form

Well, if you widen that frame far enough, then doesn't the descriptive term become watered-down and meaningless?

I think I understand what you're saying; that there are similarities between all genres of music if you look hard enough, and "the blues" is one filter for appreciating those similarities. But it's still a filter, based on a specific style. It can be counterproductive, when you're trying to actually learn to play a different style from a different place and time.

As a former Blues player, I think I've learned more about playing Irish traditional music by discarding what I know from playing Blues, rather than finding similarities. It just gets in the way. Discovering all the ways that Irish trad isn't like Blues or other similar Americana genres, is what opens the door to understanding.

[catmandu2]

Times like this I wish they made more accessible software synths--

Accessibility is an aspect currently being developed by some--Roland for example marketed (albeit, erroneously) a Juno-D which purported to share features with the venerable Juno line, but in a more accessible package. But they DO market a Gaia, which is a fully cool three-engine analog at a low price. Also check Korg's mini models

As humans "evolve" (well, at least as our toys and tools become increasingly more capable), and electronic sound is increasingly assimilated, full-featured synths will become as accessible as the rest of our technology

[catmandu2]

Well, if you widen that frame far enough, then doesn't the descriptive term become watered-down and meaningless?



It could, if you wish. We can view things any way we wish--from the broad or the narrow. We only know what we know


Discovering all the ways that Irish trad isn't like Blues or other similar Americana genres, is what opens the door to understanding.

And on the other side, the converse can be as true

I think that on the surface, it's apparent how things are dissimilar. What I have on my mind, about this, is how things are similar--how things evolve, and how things are informed. Very broad, true. I'm thinking how much I benefit--in my study of music in particular--by finding similar traits. It occurred to me in this thread this morning, that my knowledge and facility with (American) blues feeling probably makes me a better old time player, and certainly a better player of Carter family songs

It's apparent how ITM and American blues are dissimilar. A more difficult question might be--how are they similar? This is getting diffuse (but to me, interesting). What is "Blues"? What conveys pathos? How does a music do this?

And can a blues be played on a synth? ; )

One other comment--for no particular reason: I love jazz, and I'm not one to jazz-up my ITM

[M.Marmot]

All this talk of synths and mixing it up has me thinking of two of the most influential synth/orchestral composers for me in the early '90s.
Philip Glass, "Powaqqatsi" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg0rtU1qTxU&feature=share&list=PL80678A84F1365C92
and
Steve Reich "City Life" http://youtu.be/dMcz4jhDWMI

Seeing, or rather feeling, these live was one of those perception shifting moments for me.
The power of the presence live was astounding.

It must have been the same for the early audiences at The Right Of Spring. Imagine going to see a ballet then being confronted with these garish costumes and twitching jerking figures like some out of control tribal dancers driven by forces external to their bodies, like demented demons.
http://youtu.be/jF1OQkHybEQ

Glass has released another collaboration with Godfrey Reggio, the director of the Quatsi trilogy - titled 'Visitors'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-DieLfWWf0w

My music listening in my late teens was heavy with Philip Glass and i would rather like to see a performance of Visitors with the full blown ensemble playing live.

[M.Marmot]

There is another semi-electronic band, called "Afro Celt sound-system" that isn't half bad, they mix african drumming with some traditionally celtic instruments. It's interesting. Some people here may not like it, but, each to his own.
Times like this I wish they made more accessible software synths-- I have a midi keyboard and a computer, tons of music can be made with just that.

They're not that bad - when they first came out they were ahead of the curve with their combination of percussion electronics and ITM. They seem to have had a firm grasp of all these genres and managed to push things beyond a novelty album.

I remember Bill Laswell managed to produce a ITM DUB (as in reggae not dublin) album not long after that - 'Emerald Aether Shape ShiftingReconstructions Of Irish Music' (i just looked that up) I can't remember if i liked it or not but i don't think i was overly fond of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rXovOmleEs

You may like it if you like the AfroCelt soundsystem

[M.Marmot]

I hear 'ya, but I would prefer Clannad-ish wishy washy synth over what the kids are doing with synths in EDM (electronic dance music) these days. Ever heard Skrillex? It's sort of an experiment in how far you can take clipped digital noise with a beat, and call it music.

And yeah, I know how much that sounds like a "get off my lawn" old fart's response to new music. I'm probably just not listening to it loud enough, or something. It would be fascinating to bring Bach here in a time machine and get his opinion on that use of the synthesizer. Of course, it will probably sound like stale classical music, compared to whatever they'll be doing 100 years from now.

I have heard of Skrillex - but i have not heard anything by him.

[lottarope]

The OP said in the original post they were looking for good jazz and I can't believe that on Mandolin Cafe some hasn't screamed GRISMAN!!! so I'll do/did it. Jazz is so personal, to me listening to jazz is often like following a dog who swollowed a diamond ring. You gotta sort through a lot of crap but when you find the ring it's sooo worth it. I don't claim to be any jazz expert but 2 others who really helped me get into jazz are Bill Frisell and Louis Armstong. I would recomend plugging these three into Pandora and see where they lead you.

[foldedpath]

It's apparent how ITM and American blues are dissimilar. A more difficult question might be--how are they similar? This is getting diffuse (but to me, interesting). What is "Blues"? What conveys pathos? How does a music do this?

It's not just about pathos though, or else we could just say Pórt Na bPúcaí played with feeling on the pipes is a great Blues tune. What about the "strutting rooster" quality of many Blues songs? All these genres have unique blends of qualities, and I don't think one can pick and choose without diluting what we're talking about. Just my opinion.


One other comment--for no particular reason: I love jazz, and I'm not one to jazz-up my ITM

I'm guilty of that, but I don't call it ITM when I do it. :)

The guitar player in our duo likes to improvise jazzy guitar solos in the middle of things like Morrison's Jig, as a break in the middle of an otherwise straight ITM set. So I try to humor him. We don't sell ourselves as a pure drop Irish group on gigs. At home or in sessions, I play it straight. Or at least I try to. It's much harder to play ITM "authentically" than it is to mess around with it.

[catmandu2]

It's not just about pathos though,


Correct. And I'm not saying that there is "blues" in everything. But I am of the opinion that there is more "blues" around than is generally regarded. Acculturation is not a bad thing--particularly when we wish to preserve traditions. Everything has its method. Depending on how diffuse we want to get: there is a "universal blues," and there are the vernaculars of discrete cultural traditions. One challenge I have is being stimulated by virtually all sounds, and subsequently taking an interest in learning to play in many musical forms. The next thing we do is study as much as we can about our instruments' traditions and cultural context. Then as we learn more about the people who played the instruments, we begin to understand their cultural and psychological milieu..

There is another stream--that of "proper" music ; ) And it is conspicuously devoid of much "blues" feeling

What I mostly was getting at, to reply to the OP's question of significance--was offered by multidon: the more you reach, the more you'll find; there is meaning in everything, and at one point--everything converges. The sufis talk about vibration when they speak of music and sound, etc.

Thanks for the discourse f-path

[catmandu2]

It's much harder to play ITM "authentically" than it is to mess around with it.

One reason why I study clarsach, wood flute and concertinas is because of this: my fingers want to "fly" on fingerboards, and these help to "anchor" me (in several respects)--most particularly with harp

[Eddie Sheehy]

As a fluent native Gaelic speaker steeped in Irish Tradition she is fully entitled to be on the leading edge of the evolvement of 'Celtic' music. It's like saying that Thelonius Monk doesn't play Blues... Enya and her sister Maire and their brothers brought "Trad" kicking and screaming into the 20th Century where it was nurtured by Planxty, Bothy Band, Sweeney's Men etc. Even bringing the old fusspots Paddy Moloney (who was reluctant at first but now revels in it) and to a lesser degree Tony McMahon, along with them...
You'd be surprised at the small percentage of Irish people who have any liking of or affiliation with Irish Trad, but most of the population wholeheartedly embrace its rejuvenation...



Thank you for your intelligent post, Gelsenbury

It could be said that, all our efforts at music-making are “synthesized” products—that is, an aural human expression emulating natural environmental sound, and emanating from traditional forms. I suspect the general objection to “synthesizers” derives from negative associations with stereotype electronic genre style music, and an overt dependence on electronics and high technology (although, basic analog synths are quite simple devices)




It depends of course on what you call "blues." The I-IV-V progression of WF and ~90% of Carter Family songs is blues derived, or shares vast commonality with "standard" (American) blues forms. Much of the singing is "bluesy," or derives from "blues" mind, concept, inflection. Yes indeed, as you state--"blues" music or blues-derived music is very prolific

The "Blues" is many faceted. Blues is more than just a I-IV-V 12 bar form with signature scales and modes. Which is why it is so pervasive. There are "blues" forms and sounds around the world--prevalent before American-style blues idioms; these sounds and patterns are infused in our American forms. I suspect you are conceiving "blues" with a somewhat narrow purview, or based on stereotype

We can find vast or deep affinity with a wide variety of musical (and other) forms of human expression by widening our purview. This way we can identify and understand the "exotic"; deep down, we share a great deal of commonality

But I think I get what you're saying--some forms aren't as "bluesy" to the American ear: the Isles music I play on clarsach isn't overtly bluesy in the American idiomatic sense, but convey pathos through a different tonality; the modes and time of flamenco and nubah, much of the forms of continental Africa...overtly bluesy to us, as American music derives profoundly from Africa. The Sephardic, Ashkenazic and tribal forms of Eastern Europe also express a "blues" vernacular, but different from American idioms. Much Scandinavian sounds bluesy...it's all around

[catmandu2]

Eddie, I think you mean to quote Gelsenbury--who pointed out the trad chops and sensibility of Enya and family

[Eddie Sheehy]

Quotes within quotes, and all that...

[Nick Gellie]

I want to mention some European genres that I have enjoyed listening tomover the years which have their roots in medieaval times.

Bands such as Malicorne did some fantastic modern versions of traditional French tunes and songs, equivalent to Steeleye Span. Listening to Maddy Prior singing 'Cam ye O'er frae France' against a semi martial elecronic bass riff is rivetting.

Spanish sub-genres such as Sephardic, Galician, Asturian and southern Spanish music go way back. My wife sings Sephardic songs that speak of the Sephardic people that were uprooted from Spain in the 15th century. Beautiful songs of love, treachery, sadness, and kinship are emotionally uplifting.

I have heard live Galician bands with bagpipes that had amazing rollicking tunes and airs that were great to dance to. Asturian music has its own 'Celtic' style. Bands such as Felpeyu do modern arrangements of Spanish ITM.

If you go further south, you can find bands such as Radio Tarifa combining elements of Flamenco with Moroccan Arabic music to produce haunting melodies on traditional and non-traditional instruments. And then there is Flamenco dance music that has its roots in Gypsy music with complex sub-rythmns for the dancer.

In this discussion we should not just restrict ourselves to just the musical genres found in the USA.

[bratsche]

Spanish sub-genres such as Sephardic, Galician, Asturian and southern Spanish music go way back.

Can't leave out the unique contributions of the Islas Canarias, either - I found their folk music wonderful to listen to when I lived there back in the 1970s.

bratsche

[M.Marmot]

Just to add to the European musics -

The French traditional scene is definitely dominated by the musics of Brittany, binous, bagpipes, harps, and even clarinets and pipes feature prominantly. This would be one of the more well known areas of French music for english speakers as it has been draped in the 'celtic' banner and has adopted some outside connections such as a fondess for Irish flutes, arranging tunes into sets, and crosover groups such as Kornog.

However, there is also great tradition of polyphonic singing in the south of France, Corsica and extending accross the mediterranean coast in to Italy. This music is marked by a capella singing or singing accompanied by fifes and tambours (drums in other words - mandola is to mandolin as tambours are to tambourines).

There have also been some efforts made to record some music traditions in areas such as the the traditional fiddling in the Alps, dance musics in the Auvergne which boasts an indiginous type of bellows-blown bagpipe. And tahts without getting into odd-bods like hurdy-gurdys, which coincidently has been used by a group by the name of 'La Machine' to produce a great album which oddly sounds a little bit like Massive Attack/ featuring Horace Andy.

Heres a taster of the latter


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQUTd773sTY&feature=player_detailpage

[M.Marmot]

Spanish sub-genres such as Sephardic, Galician, Asturian and southern Spanish music go way back. My wife sings Sephardic songs that speak of the Sephardic people that were uprooted from Spain in the 15th century. Beautiful songs of love, treachery, sadness, and kinship are emotionally uplifting.


I have heard some great music from the Sephardic tradition - the music of the Southern European Jews is often overlooked - collected from around the Mediterranean. One album came to mind, 'David Saltiel: Jewish - Spanish Songs from Thessaloniki' which is a fine record one whose background is well worth a mention http://www.oriente.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95%3A..

[catmandu2]

...roots in medieaval times.


From an article on Eduardo Paniagua--who is devoted to exploring the period throughout the regions and has a prolific catalog of recorded music with notable collaborators:

One of the world's most influential musical cultures flourished from the eighth to the 15th century in the southern Iberian realm called al-Andalus by the Arabs who lived and ruled there. Only traces of that original music remain today, in poems, written histories, illustrations and oral traditions handed down through generations, yet Andalusian music and its many descendants still inspire performers and audiences around the world.

Arabs have always considered the music of al-Andalus a pinnacle of Arab culture. It gave rise to poetry and song forms that influenced the European troubadours, whose music in turn became part of the Renaissance, and is still heard today.

Often attracted first by the romantic reputation of al-Andalus, modern-day musicians worldwide love to "reimagine" its music, blending beautiful old Spanish melodies with Middle Eastern, medieval, flamenco and gypsy influences. Many performers and audiences are also inspired by the ideal of convivencia, the complex co-existence that occurred among Islamic, Jewish and Christian cultures in al-Andalus


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[catmandu2]

Well I am not referring to the mindset or subject matter really.


Older forms (since we're talking about "historical significance," by and large) tend to be based in lyricism. "Music for music's sake"--serialism, formalisms, abstraction in myriad forms, etc.--tends to be more a contemporary phenomenon. Of course there are "tone poems" and other works of "programmatic" and tonal thematic content. But poeticism is the ancient impetus for musical expression. Even forms that are heavily based in dance, such as flamenco, is based primarily in song (cante). The first music was of the voice, and is still the most prevalent of traditions worldwide...symphonic tradition is a relatively recent trend. The classical music of old is song/dance-based.

Considering "what to listen for" in music: we can certainly enjoy a simple tune immensely. But consider there is much, much more in musical traditions and arts, particularly WRT historical significance. For me, the tune is only half the story--as much as I enjoy purely tonal aspects, there is so much more when we consider cultural context. For my money, listening to a blues or a Carter family song without considering the "mindset" or cultural milieu of its singers, players and composers is missing the forest for the trees. The tunes are nice, but music can serve us much more if we consider the people, the time, the context of its genesis. Study of the visual arts is this way: it's difficult to apprehend the meaning of movements, schools, styles and periods without consideration of what preceded it--its historical context.

[Beanzy]

It is important to realise the novelty of all these revival and re-animatied genres such as much Irish traditional music. We owe much to the Romantics who wandered about trying to jot down the surviving embers, but even their efforts were filtred through their own musical understanding. In Iberia even those embers were stamped out in the the sefardi, gallego and similar genres. With most of the work to revitalise it being a paralell of what happened in the US with the blues. The pan-european folk revivals were especially strongly felt in the Iberian peninsula post '75 as then the people could look beyond the centre to the regions and dare to give them some importance. Even in my time in early '80s Vizcaya and Castilla people I knew were still trying to recover the remains of much of this work and trying to re-imagine the music from the bare paper bones that were left. Apart from rowdy pipe and drum tunes which were kept for festivals the music had been crushed to death. With sefardi old '78s from the middle east recorded in the early 1900s were hunted down from those much was rebuilt. But those recordings were very similar to their analogues in the US in that they were echoes of a music already passing on which people had made great efforts to preserve before it passed. These were the songs of exiles sung in iberian-jewish by people living far from the land their ancestors were expelled from.
It really makes me appreciate how important the living tradition is and how we need to value the continuing re-invention and re-imagining. So although we never can really know how any of that music really was, it is the surviving reinterpretations from the far-flung echoes that we use to re-invent our versions.

[JeffD]

Bands such as Malicorne did some fantastic modern versions of traditional French tunes and songs, equivalent to Steeleye Span. Listening to Maddy Prior singing 'Cam ye O'er frae France' against a semi martial elecronic bass riff is rivetting. .


Two of my all time favorite bands ever.

[JeffD]

Considering "what to listen for" in music: we can certainly enjoy a simple tune immensely. But consider there is much, much more in musical traditions and arts, particularly WRT historical significance. For me, the tune is only half the story--as much as I enjoy purely tonal aspects, there is so much more when we consider cultural context. For my money, listening to a blues or a Carter family song without considering the "mindset" or cultural milieu of its singers, players and composers is missing the forest for the trees..

I agree entirely. My comment was meant narrowly to refer to the blues as opposed to sadness loss and death songs in general.

I am very deeply moved by songs that evoke tragedy and sadness and hopelessness without recourse to a seventh chord.

In Irish music I love a slowly played Limericks Lamentation. Gets me get me every time. (Though Liam O'Flynn could play Row Your Boat and bring me to tears.)

-G7bVa_s8JA

OK OK, there is a D7 in there, just one, and it breaks your heart. But nobody would confuse this with the blues.

[JeffD]

Spanish sub-genres such as Sephardic, Galician, Asturian and southern Spanish music .

You reminded me. I am presently loving an Asturian band, Llan de Cubel (http://www.llandecubel.com/). I could really get into this music.

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[catmandu2]

It really makes me appreciate how important the living tradition is and how we need to value the continuing re-invention and re-imagining. So although we never can really know how any of that music really was, it is the surviving reinterpretations from the far-flung echoes that we use to re-invent our versions.

Well said, Eoin--thanks. And thanks to OP (theblindbard) for inciting such a relevant topic

[Gelsenbury]

The French traditional scene is definitely dominated by the musics of Brittany, binous, bagpipes, harps, and even clarinets and pipes feature prominantly.

My "instrument 2b" is a bombarde. :) A friendly musician - incidentally a hurdy-gurdy player - told me recently that not many people become any good at playing bombarde because it's impossible to practise unless you don't have neighbours! He's right ... but the bombarde is still decorative and a good conversation-starter.

[M.Marmot]

My "instrument 2b" is a bombarde. :) A friendly musician - incidentally a hurdy-gurdy player - told me recently that not many people become any good at playing bombarde because it's impossible to practise unless you don't have neighbours! He's right ... but the bombarde is still decorative and a good conversation-starter.

I had toyed with the idea of getting one before - but yeah, they are loud... and apparently you need a fine set of lungs on you to get a tune out. I think in breton music they are normally restricted to playing short phrases in call and response with the pipes?

[Eddie Sheehy]

I agree entirely. My comment was meant narrowly to refer to the blues as opposed to sadness loss and death songs in general.

I am very deeply moved by songs that evoke tragedy and sadness and hopelessness without recourse to a seventh chord.

In Irish music I love a slowly played Limericks Lamentation. Gets me get me every time. (Though Liam O'Flynn could play Row Your Boat and bring me to tears.)

-G7bVa_s8JA

OK OK, there is a D7 in there, just one, and it breaks your heart. But nobody would confuse this with the blues.

It's the F Natural that opens the tear ducts...

[TheBlindBard]

--I've been busy the past couple days, and I think that going through and replying to all the points I've just read would take quite a while, so, I'll start with some general things that came up:
I don't even know if I could listen to all of the music brought up here in a lifetime. It seems like there are many many rich musical traditions that have spread across the world.
-When talking about music being lost over time, and people having to re-create it. Things like that almost bring a tear to my eye, just considering that. While I don't like all kinds of music, as musicians, we can at least appreciate the technical skill that goes into the creation. I really don't like much rap or hiphop, but as a person who likes english, I can understand how difficult it can be to pull words out that rhyme.
-The person who said "the more you look into music, the more there is" I agree completely. Half of the charm of music is learning to play that next tune, or learn just a little bit more about scales or techniques.
I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I'm glad this topic has started such a conversation, so many things to look up and research just from here alone.
Happy picking, everybody

[Gelsenbury]

I had toyed with the idea of getting one before - but yeah, they are loud... and apparently you need a fine set of lungs on you to get a tune out. I think in breton music they are normally restricted to playing short phrases in call and response with the pipes?

I think so, but "short" is a relative term ... the phrases seem pretty long when you are still struggling to get 5 consecutive notes out of the thing! I really like the combinations with piano or organ - it's amazing how such a small instrument can play together with a church organ without sounding silly!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vh85-J2Eck

For our wedding ceremony, we used a recording of a hymn played on bombarde and organ as my wife was walking down the aisle. It worked incredibly well and was just the combination of the sacred with the folksy that we wanted (and fits into this thread and its discussion of connections between musical traditions). Unfortunately I couldn't find a Youtube video of the recording we used.

My bombarde is a cheap model made in Pakistan and bought from my local music shop. It's possible that a higher-quality make would be easier to play as well. But I still won't be able to play it often, so it would be a waste of money until we have our house in the forest! :)) Using soft plastic reeds made for bagpipe practice helps the playability in the short term. This is a nice page about the bombarde: http://bombardencharente.chez-alice.fr/APPbombardencharente.htm


Older forms (since we're talking about "historical significance," by and large) tend to be based in lyricism. "Music for music's sake"--serialism, formalisms, abstraction in myriad forms, etc.--tends to be more a contemporary phenomenon. Of course there are "tone poems" and other works of "programmatic" and tonal thematic content. But poeticism is the ancient impetus for musical expression.

(...)

But consider there is much, much more in musical traditions and arts, particularly WRT historical significance. For me, the tune is only half the story--as much as I enjoy purely tonal aspects, there is so much more when we consider cultural context.

That's exactly what music means to me. A beautiful tune is beautiful in its own right, but it's also one of the things that enable you to feel (rather than just read about) history and culture. Like any treatment of these topics, this experience is necessarily subject to distortions and local and/or contemporary accents, but it's an education nonetheless.

Thank you for the pointer towards Eduardo Paniagua, I'll try to find more of his music!

[Nick Gellie]

Blind bard,

You opened up a great thread for us to respond to. We really appreciate the opportunity to put our penny worths together as we have delved into some of the traditions. BTW our mandolins and bouzoukis are our tools in recreating some of the wonderful traditions that other cultures have endowed us.

[Randi Gormley]

Gelsenbury, listening to the bombarde reminded me very much of playing krummhorn during a foray at the Texas Toot (Texas Early Music Festival) back when I was playing recorder much more than mandolin. Can you imagine a roomful of people, say 65 or so, all playing various voices of krummhorn? I think I still have the t-shirt of the Krummhorn Konsort buried somewhere in my closet. Wouldn't surprise me if there were bombardes there as well. Medieval music takes on a whole nother voice when played on krummhorns!

[Gelsenbury]

Krummhorn ... nice. :)

[Tom Smart]

I like best the OT music that never heard of the blues.

In an earlier post, you mentioned "Wildwood Flower" as an example. Looking past that example, given their extensive collaboration with Lesley Riddle, and the scores of recordings they made that show a distinct blues influence, I think it's safe to say the Carter Family had heard of the blues.

[catmandu2]

... the old fusspots Paddy Moloney (who was reluctant at first but now revels in it) and to a lesser degree Tony McMahon...

Eddie, re your mention of Tony McMahon...as a box player, I love Tony--his playing, and his staunch sensibilities toward ITM

FWIW, here's a clip of some relevant commentary. In particular, he mentions--WRT the playing of aires--that the music comes from a cultural milieu, as well as a time and a place. If music be "significant," it will likely be relevant and perhaps intimate to a great number of people. (This is what I'm referring to when I speak of a "universal blues" feeling--in particular with regard to some of the examples and references made)

gXTvikUGr0E


In answer to my own question, I hear "blues" in Port Na Bpucai, Dear Irish Boy, Wildwood Flower... It's a vast and profound sensibility among rural people, exiled people, oppressed, subjugated, vulnerable, sensitive. Broadly speaking, I believe its an inescapable feeling innate among persons with empathy and imagination, and likely the primary element in music through the ages. Humans are what we are. Music is a unique expression in that it may convey great variety of feeling and meaning within a single work--much as the human voice

[foldedpath]

There are several folkloric descriptions of the origin of Port Ba Bpucai, but this one is my favorite, from the Tunes database discussion section of session.org:

"A beautiful slow air, Port na bPucai (translated as Music of the Fairies), from Inishvickillane Island in the Blaskets, Co Kerry. Legend tells that three islanders were rowing back to Inishvickillane when they heard these strange sounds emanating from the hull of their currach. One islander, a fiddler, picked up his bow and played along to this eerie sounds, thought to have been made by fairies. Many years later the connection was made between Port na bPucai and the song of the humpback whale. Maybe it was indeed Port na bPucai; the sound of the fairies; or perhaps the islanders heard a singing whale heading south to breeding grounds around the Cape Verdes"

So the question arises, do Humpback Whales sing the Blues? ;)

[catmandu2]

So the question arises, do Humpback Whales sing the Blues? ;)

Here's another: why does Coltrane choose this repertoire on his "Plays the Blues"?


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[JeffD]

In an earlier post, you mentioned "Wildwood Flower" as an example. Looking past that example, given their extensive collaboration with Lesley Riddle, and the scores of recordings they made that show a distinct blues influence, I think it's safe to say the Carter Family had heard of the blues.

I am not a Carter Family expert. I mean I am aware of Lesley and the connection, but still wondering about the influence. I have several box set Carter Family collections, but, as is my style, I have only heard what has come up on my random function on the player. So most of it I haven't heard.

Regardless I have not heard a Carter Family song that seemed influenced by the blues. Maybe just haven't yet.

But that changes nothing. When I do hear the blues influenced ones, I will be able to say I have a preference for the Carter Family songs that are less influenced by the blues, or less obviously influenced.

Lets take another. Say the tune Hard Times, the Stephen Foster tune. Its a great OT tune, and part of what I love about it is that it is not bluesy.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Puca - pl: PUCAI is the Irish for Ghosts or Spirits, Si or Siog would be faeries... Port na bPucai = tune of the Spirits...

[JeffD]

Its another one of these fuzzy boundary problems. Some old time tunes everyone would agree are bluesy. Others most everyone would agree are not influenced by the blues. And what is left are tunes we would disagree on. Some of them most people would agree are not blues influenced, some of them most would agree are blues influenced, and so on. Lack of an easily defined border does not necessarily mean the two distinct regions don't exist.

I believe you can roughly correlate this chronologically.

But I am no ethnomusicologist. I don't even play one on tv.

[catmandu2]

No problem here. Arts critique (and reading/writing history) is another polemic


Here it is--CF plays the blues (actually jazz, but we know where that came from ; )

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[Tom Smart]

Regardless I have not heard a Carter Family song that seemed influenced by the blues. Maybe just haven't yet.

Here are a few:

You Are My Flower
Hello Stranger
Coal Miners' Blues
Poor Orphan Child
Single Girl, Married Girl
John Hardy
Ain't Going to Work Tomorrow
Don't Forget this Song
Foggy Mountain Top
The Cannonball
Motherless Children
Worried Man Blues
Let the Church Roll On
Can't Feel at Home
I'm Working on a Building
You've Been Fooling Me, Baby
Etc., etc.

Really, listening to the way Sara bends and slide her notes, it's hard for me not to hear blues influence in just about everything she sings. What a great voice.

[catmandu2]

Really, listening to the way Sara bends and slide her notes, it's hard for me not to hear blues influence in just about everything she sings. What a great voice.

Someone, somewhere, (maybe Billie herself) said that Billie Holiday was not a "blues" singer

[catmandu2]

Here's Mother kicking off another for us - (like Johnny says, "...everybody knows")


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Imagine, how alien "country music" would be without its "blues" element


It might help to "hear" the blues in this oeuvre by listening to various treatments: Jody and Kate did an album of (I believe) all CF songs - Motherless Children, Single Girl, Don't Forget this Song, Poor Orphan Child, Away Out... Recommended

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[JeffD]

Here it is--CF plays the blues (actually jazz, but we know where that came from ; )


I just don't know what to say here. Let me try several approaches.

I can't conceive of anyone saying with a straight face that that was bluesy or jazzy. -or-

If I met someone who maintained that was the blues I would think they hear blues in everything, and could not identify something that wasn't bluesy. -or-

If that recording were in the blues section of a store, I would assume it was misfiled. -or-

If I commissioned someone to write a blues tune for me and they suggested that as an example, I would fire them. -or-

If that really is the blues, than I myself could not with confidence identify anything that isn't the blues.

[JeffD]

Here are a few:

Really, listening to the way Sara bends and slide her notes, it's hard for me not to hear blues influence in just about everything she sings. What a great voice.

I haven't heard all of them, but a lot of them, and yea I love her voice, but I just don't hear the blues in it. I'm Working on a Building? Worried Man Blues? John Hardy?

[JeffD]

[QUOTE=catmandu2;1212774]Here's Mother kicking off another for us - (like Johnny says, "...everybody knows")

Not so much in the first video (except for the electric guitar riff at the close of the clip) but a little in the second video. I agree blues and bluesy and influenced by the blues.. its a continuum. I would not put these examples towards the center of it.

[catmandu2]

I just don't know what to say here. Let me try several approaches.

I can't conceive of anyone saying with a straight face that that was bluesy or jazzy. -or-

If I met someone who maintained that was the blues I would think they hear blues in everything, and could not identify something that wasn't bluesy. -or-

If that recording were in the blues section of a store, I would assume it was misfiled. -or-

If I commissioned someone to write a blues tune for me and they suggested that as an example, I would fire them. -or-

If that really is the blues, than I myself could not with confidence identify anything that isn't the blues.

You didn't hear that little chromatic walkdown in the intro? ; ) . I was a bit facetious, in that you said the dom 7 was what you identified as typifying the sound you associate with the idiom (viz., "blues"), or some such

Really, though, I don't expect everyone to "hear" what I hear, or think the way I do--a thing either resonates with you or does not. We're borne of our experience (Arts critique [and reading/writing history] is another polemic)

But for closure, I essentially wanted to convey: a) the centrality of "blues" in American music, and that there is more to blues than a scalar or modal device, or signature phrase or "lick," and; b) you really must heed more than just the "tune" to get the full impact of a music, and to derive its historical significance

[Tom Smart]

I haven't heard all of them, but a lot of them, and yea I love her voice, but I just don't hear the blues in it. I'm Working on a Building? Worried Man Blues? John Hardy?

"I'm Working on a Building" was almost certainly adapted from Lesley Riddle's version, who in turn took it from an old black spiritual that is still in wide circulation today.

"Worried Man Blues," aside from having "Blues" in as part of its title, is a straight 12-bar blues progression in cut time. (I'm talking about the original version here, not the one linked above that has been expanded to 16 bars)

"John Hardy" has a flat seventh against a IV chord as its highest melody note (therefore arguably its most prominent note), and Maybelle's solos repeatedly hammer or slide from the flat third to the major third. Sara's vocal also repeatedly does the same minor-to-major third slide.

The importance of Lesley Riddle in the development of the Carter Family's repertoire and style can hardly be overstated. They spent untold hours at his feet soaking up his music. Maybelle cited him as her most important guitar influence. The only Riddle recordings that are available, as far as I know, are the ones Mike Seeger collected that were released on "Step by Step: Lesley Riddle Meets the Carter Family." You can hear snippets here (http://www.allmusic.com/album/step-by-step-lesley-riddle-meets-the-carter-family-mw0000095441), including a few that are familiar from the Carter Family repertoire. They were of course also well acquainted with Jimmie Rogers, who is probably more responsible than anyone for bringing blues to a white audience.

It seems that old time music is often described as what happened to Irish/Scots/English music after it crossed the ocean. What all too often gets left out is that it came into direct contact with the music of many other cultures. Most notably in the South, it came into contact with blues and ragtime. White and black musicians soaked up each others' music, and in fact there are uncredited black musicians (http://www.popmatters.com/feature/172527-hidden-in-the-mix/) all over many of the "hillbilly" and "old time" records of the 20s and 30s.

The Carter Family was a white band marketed to a white audience, and they certainly don't sound like Robert Johnson. But without the influence of blues forms, I suspect they would have sounded very different--and probably not have been as successful.

[catmandu2]

... What all too often gets left out is that it came into direct contact with the music of many other cultures.

Tom, thanks for your elucidation.



*BTW, for sake of accuracy...I forgot that the Roland Gaia is actually an analog modeling synth

[Beanzy]

The Carter Family was a white band marketed to a white audience, and they certainly don't sound like Robert Johnson. But without the influence of blues forms, I suspect they would have sounded very different--and probably not have been as successful.

Looking at the Carter history they share a common influence with many other recording artists of their era which came from years of church harmony singing. To me it seems that it shares a strong background from the earlier 'spiritual' singing developed in the revival of the 1730s & 40s rather than the Blues itself which would have been a paralell development.

[JeffD]

But for closure, I essentially wanted to convey: a) the centrality of "blues" in American music, and that there is more to blues than a scalar or modal device, or signature phrase or "lick," and; b) you really must heed more than just the "tune" to get the full impact of a music, and to derive its historical significance

We can agree entirely on that. :)

[JeffD]

The importance of Lesley Riddle in the development of the Carter Family's repertoire and style can hardly be overstated.

I don't doubt it. (I thought for some reason he was called Esley Riddle. Makes sense it was a nickname.)

Assuming his influence was bluesy I would have thought it a lot stronger in the Carter Family and Carter Sister's music.



They were of course also well acquainted with Jimmie Rogers, who is probably more responsible than anyone for bringing blues to a white audience.

I hear the blues a lot more obviously in Jimmie Rogers.


It seems that old time music is often described as what happened to Irish/Scots/English music after it crossed the ocean. What all too often gets left out is that it came into direct contact with the music of many other cultures. Most notably in the South, it came into contact with blues and ragtime.

I agree entirely. My preference is for the old time music where that influence hasn't happened yet or hasn't happened much.

The difference struck me strongly years ago when listening to the Armstrong Twins. They would do a tune like Three Miles South of Cash in Arkansas, or Mother's Not Dead, and then something like Mandolin Boogie, or Beetle with the Boogie Woogie Beat, and the transition was kind of jarring. Yea the same musicians, but they seemed miles apart.

[JeffD]

Last night, after playing Elk River Blues about 34 times on my supranino, I thought of another quip to add to my list, which was to ask if, in a word association game, and the word was "1930s Blues Music", and someone jumped up and said "Carter Family" would you consider that person to be an insightful student of music history aware of the blues continuum, or would you think they just blurted out an answer without thinking too much?

[Tom Smart]

Last night, after playing Elk River Blues about 34 times on my supranino, I thought of another quip to add to my list, which was to ask if, in a word association game, and the word was "1930s Blues Music", and someone jumped up and said "Carter Family" would you consider that person to be an insightful student of music history aware of the blues continuum, or would you think they just blurted out an answer without thinking too much?

Rather than jumping to the conclusion that the other person is either particularly insightful or particularly thoughtless, I hope I would be curious enough to say, "Oh, how interesting. Please tell me more about why you answered that way."

[Tom Smart]

Looking at the Carter history they share a common influence with many other recording artists of their era which came from years of church harmony singing. To me it seems that it shares a strong background from the earlier 'spiritual' singing developed in the revival of the 1730s & 40s rather than the Blues itself which would have been a parallel development.

I think the notion of parallel development (what gets sung on Sunday is different from what gets sung the rest of the week; what gets sung by white people is different that what gets sung by black people) is kind of artificial. Consider the camp meetings of the 19th century. Or the improvisational and blues-based elements that are highly valued in spiritual singing. Or the mix of sacred and secular songs that make up the repertoire of countless blues and country artists alike.

[Polecat]

Cross-Pollenation (or, if you prefer, contamination), and the discussion thereof is by no means a recent phenomenon. In the liner notes to a folkways compilation LP entitled "Nonesuch and other folk tunes" from 1959, Pete Seeger wrote "...a new problem looms, to threaten disaster. Today's citizens who love folk music are being thrown into contact with not one or two or three, but dozens and hundreds of traditions. Which to follow?...for good or bad, young people today who like folk music are combining various traditions together at a faster rate than than the world has ever seen before. Some hybrids flourish so like weeds, that one fears for the very existence of other forms, just as the english sparrow has driven other birds from our parks..." (I'm quoting from the excellent Electric Eden by Rob Young, a somewhat opinionated but very informative book on the influence of english folk music and mysticism on the pop and rock music of that sceptred isle).
That was then, this is now, and we have this fantastic two-edged sword, the Internet, making it not only possible that we can all communicate in real time, with members of this forum coming from Thailand, China, the USA, Great Brittain, Spain and Germany just to mention a few countries, but also to experience all manner of music which as little as 10 years ago would have been totally unavailable outside local confines. For example, is anyone else here aware of Vepsian culture and music? I stumbled upon this website (I forget how) and find the music fascinating: http://vepsnoid.blogspot.de/search/label/Music . I had never heard of Vepsians before, the music reminds me of some Norwegian and Finnish music I've heard. No blues there.
On the subject of blues and so-called "old time music" (I've never been sure of the correct definition of this genre), I respect JeffD's assertion that he hears an "innocence of blues" in the style, equally, others' point of view that an influence can be heard is valid in their ears. I would contend that John Coltrane's rendition of "Greensleeves" (that tune again) is pretty bluesy although there aint no I/IV/I/V /IV/I there at all. What kind of music do the Carolina Chocolate Drops play? Sometimes arguing about genres is a little like counting angels on a pinpoint.

[foldedpath]

I'm with JeffD on the Carter Family clip (Wildwood Flower) sounding at all like Blues.

This may be too reductionist or culture-bound a way to think about it, but regardless... I need to hear a faint echo of Africa in the music to recognize something as Blues. That Carter Family clip sounds like pure whitebread to my ears, without a trace of the black American cultural influence that we normally associate with Blues. Like Jeff said, if that's Blues, then everything is Blues, and the term loses all meaning. Just my opinion.

[catmandu2]

Everything Coltrane played was soaked in the blues, or, at least that's what they say ; )

Like all criticism, there are lots of approaches to the discussion. For any productive dialogue a glossary of terms is required. For starters, "what is blues?" There is the American Blues idiom. There is the West African tradition--I don't know if it is called "blues" there. Flamenco is often called "Mediterranean blues." Where-else do people conceive of their music in these terms? " I suggest that there is also a blues-mind, experience, feeling--perhaps innate to us. Perhaps conceived as two opposite ends of the pole here? Perhaps useless to consider, but I'm compelled to introduce broad sociologic considerations in a thread of this topic. So, I'm talking also about "white" blues.

My basic premise is--we can't remove ourselves (our psychology and cultural experience) from our expression. It may be more fugitive and less overt, but it (our art and creative expression) is one of the signifying traits that make us -- us. Perhaps African blues is within us all. Perhaps not. Certainly, applying certain qualities of music globally isn't productive in one sense of music critique. However, I find the possibilities unavoidable.


Looking at CF's Wildwood Flower clip (I facetiously wrote "...plays the blues"-- because of the flat 7th in the intro ; ) is an interesting exercise. Music isn't exactly a Rorschach in that there is a psychology behind it as well. My contention is that there is blues feeling in us all, possibly. The extent to which this is manifest, intended or otherwise, is of course variable. I'm not really saying that the Carter family were a blues act ;)

[catmandu2]

re

[M.Marmot]

I don't think that i can agree to the Blues being a universal condition - nope, that ain't sitting right at all t'all.

[catmandu2]

I don't think that i can agree to the Blues being a universal condition - nope, that ain't sitting right at all t'all.

Well, roughly speaking, I believe it constitutes exactly one-half of our experience ;)

I also should say that I'm an existentialist (basically)

[Beanzy]

I think the notion of parallel development (what gets sung on Sunday is different from what gets sung the rest of the week; what gets sung by white people is different that what gets sung by black people) is kind of artificial. Consider the camp meetings of the 19th century. Or the improvisational and blues-based elements that are highly valued in spiritual singing. Or the mix of sacred and secular songs that make up the repertoire of countless blues and country artists alike.

They were paralell developments. No one says there's no crossover, but they remain different spheres, especially in the Appalacias. One's in the church and would have frowned at the lyrics and themes persued by the blues. Both were shared by many but it would be like the difference between your Sunday suit and your work clothes. Nothing wrong with saying they developed in paralell when that's exactly what they did. In the Carter family history it was the church singing that gave them their framework. People like Aldine Keiffer, Ephrahim Ruebush, Everett Beverley and James D Vaughan had a huge impact on that world. They were the line the Carters tapped into in terms of their vocal styles and background. Obviously once they started recording they pulled in all the other songs they could get hold of to cover, AP was an prolific wanderer in search of songs and stories, but the core of who they were and how they sang was already built.

[catmandu2]

We can only speculate on what made AP wander..

I'm fascinated by the ecumenical culture of rural America. Frankly, all such devotion is an interesting study, but certainly its manifestation in some rural and remote cultures is a florid expression. The parochial delineation between sacred and profane is always interesting to observe in fundamentalist cultures--and its emanating effects throughout its societies. The stories of such figures as Son House, Gary Davis and the countless others reconciling their experience of spiritual paradox and struggle through song is of course legendary. Although unaffiliated with formalized tradition, we can probably include people like Sylvester Stone, Sun Ra, and more traditionally John Coltrane, as leaders of social and spiritual import in modern music.

The relationship between blues and gospel is an interesting study--and its manifestations in American culture, in particular, are most interesting. I'm too remote to have much knowledge of historicity pertaining to this region and period, but the paradox and cultural effects persist (globally)--from the first days, I suspect: it's still a most interesting dilemma for us

A question: can the form of oppression and repression imposed from ecumenical institution give rise to feelings we might associate with "the blues?"

[M.Marmot]

I think that the oppression of any segment of society, or the repression of certain forms of expression, can cause those forms to adapt and take on a unique identity. By denying others a full participation in society and an unbiased audience certain forms of expression can get turned back on themselves, differences may be magnified and they will develop along their own paths.

- Fado, Tango, Disco, Jazz Manouche, Klezmer, Rebetika - to name a few such genres.

In the case of the blues, such was the range of repressive and oppressive measures being borne by many of its practicioners it would be hard to conlusively say that any one imposition was the root of the blues.

[catmandu2]

... conlusively say that any one imposition was the root of the blues.

But I don't think anyone has suggested this

[Tom Smart]

AP was an prolific wanderer in search of songs and stories

So goes the legend, which for decades conveniently ignored the black man with the guitar who wandered by his side, just as the record companies found it convenient to segregate "race" and "hillbilly" musicians. It's very disturbing to me that we still haven't gotten past that nearly 100 years later.

Since this is a thread about history, I'll let an actual historian do the talking. Here are just a few passages from Mark Zwonitzer's biography of the Carter Family, Will You Miss Me When I'm Gone:

-----

[A.P.] and Sara would have [Lesley] Riddle at the homeplace for a week or more at a time. "They were just like home to me," said Riddle.... "I'd be settin' over there sometimes, you know, and pick up the guitar and play something. Four or five months from then, I'd be coming down the street and I'd be hearing it.

"The Carter Family would be singing it. You know, as many times as I was over at the Carter Family, I never got them together to sing for me but twice the whole time I was over there. They never sang for me. I'd have to do all the picking and singing while I was over there."

The Carter Family would record their own version of a blues song Riddle learned from a Blind Lemon Jefferson recording, and a retooling of a song Riddle's uncle had been playing for decades, "The Cannonball." ... Years later, Maybelle would tell Mike Seeger that Riddle had taught her how to play the blues licks in "The Cannonball," but Riddle always demurred. Maybelle was just like him, Riddle would say. She was always paying attention, always watching. "You don't have to give Maybelle any lessons," Riddle remembered thirty years later. "You let her see you playing something, she'll get it. You better believe it."
...

...of the nineteen songs the Carter Family cut [in 1930], nine were either church-house blues or sacred songs from the black Baptist or Pentecostal churches. Both those musical movements were fed by absolute, existential loneliness, far beyond the comparatively feeble homesickness of Anglo-Irish and white southern traditional music. In African-American song, there might not even be a home or mother to get back to.
...

Though the Holiness revivals Maybelle had attended were gatherings of southern whites, the movement got its musical release from the children of slaves.
...

In 1930, the Carters had begun to put African-American sacred songs on record: "On a Hill Lone and Gray," "I'm Working on a Building" (which was a "Holy Ghost building"), the rousing "Let the Church Roll On," and "On My Way to Canaan's Land".... Maybe the best was "When the World's on Fire," which had been recorded as "Rock of Ages" by Blind Willie Davis, a black singer-guitarist from McComb, Mississippi. On the Carter record, Maybelle played in Davis's bottleneck-guitar style....

A.P. also had an instant affinity for the secular country-blues music Riddle brought him. Riddle, who used to lock himself in his room and make music when he was feeling down, never saw the blues as a racial statement....

A.P. knew what it was to be lonesome for something.... With his ear to that tune, and with Maybelle's ability to pick up the guitar licks Riddle showed her, the Carters began making some pretty convincing church-house blues. Their audience responded to it immediately, making "Worried Man Blues" their biggest seller of the year.

-----

There's a lot more. Read the book, then maybe go back and give the music a closer listen. If you still only hear white Anglo/Irish influence, well I'm glad you enjoy the Carter Family. That's what the record companies probably wanted you to hear, and the Carters were certainly a great and influential group.

[JeffD]

I'm compelled to introduce broad sociologic considerations in a thread of this topic.

Cat that is why it is so much fun to yak with you. :)

[catmandu2]

... fed by absolute, existential loneliness, far beyond the comparatively feeble homesickness of Anglo-Irish and white southern traditional music. In African-American song, there might not even be a home or mother to get back to.


Tom, thank you again. I lack both the knowledge of historicity as well as the writing skill, but the above here is what I've been trying to express

Music and poetry is such a vast language of profound subtlety--from the abstractions and cosmic longings of Herman P. Blount to the acute realisms of Jack Kerouac: their lucidity may stem from the same mother

[M.Marmot]

But I don't think anyone has suggested this

I don't think anyone had suggested that either - if i did i would have at least quoted the person - no, i was simply stating that i thought it would be a difficult to find a definitive root to the blues.

Though reading through Mr. Smart's post below - it is suggested to me that it is the very absence of roots that engenders the blues.

(Also, with regards to the quoted text - I find it hard to grasp a situation where the loneliness, existential or otherwise, of a person or a community can be weighed up compared - let alone to be found wanting.)

To put an answer toward your question 'can the form of oppression and repression imposed from ecumenical institution give rise to feelings we might associate with "the blues?"

I think that there would be a weight of blues lyric to support that thesis - and to roll-on with that other theme of the absence of roots - i imagine that to be turned away, 'excommunicated' by your own people because your lifestyle choices went against their teachings would be one of the hardest crosses to bear. In that sense to say it's a safe bet that such repression can give rise to feelings that some people might associate with the blues.

If i may also ask - what actually are the feelings that you personally associate with the blues?

[edit: I see from the post immediately above this one that you have answered my question as i was writing this post - i was writing this post only in light of your earlier posts]

[Tom Smart]

catmandu2 and M.Marmot, I'm loving the discussion you're having. More!

[catmandu2]

catmandu2 and M.Marmot, I'm loving the discussion you're having. More!

Ha, I think I've said everything I can on this one! : )

[Beanzy]

There's a lot more. Read the book, then maybe go back and give the music a closer listen. If you still only hear white Anglo/Irish influence, well I'm glad you enjoy the Carter Family. That's what the record companies probably wanted you to hear, and the Carters were certainly a great and influential group.

In fact it's from reading the book I read about their church background (not something I much care for but will happily recognise) especially about the influence of Flanders Bays with his training in the Normal School and about APs time with Ezra Addington. When they came to their blues was later than that. They came already formed to a tradition which was paralell and already developed by the time they had come to it. Their chuch tradition shared the same roots as the Blues, but they were formed in a different tradition from the Blues (ie Riddle). I hear lots of influences in their music, it's all there. But I'll not try to pretend it was more important in their origins and influences than it really is. It's not where they came from but it's certainly something they tapped into, AP new a good tune when he heard it, just like we tap into many paralell influences today. He was already a recorded artist by the time he met Riddle.

It's this other child of spiritualism and revival culture that gave them their foundation. The Blues shared this earlier influence, but maybe I'm too focussed about what the blues is, or when it was? What the carters gew up on was definitely not The Blues. “they smack of the North….” a bit too much for that.

[JeffD]

A question: can the form of oppression and repression imposed from ecumenical institution give rise to feelings we might associate with "the blues?"

More pertinent, can it give rise to music we might associate with "the blues"?

[JeffD]

There's a lot more. Read the book, then maybe go back and give the music a closer listen. If you still only hear white Anglo/Irish influence, well I'm glad you enjoy the Carter Family. That's what the record companies probably wanted you to hear, and the Carters were certainly a great and influential group.

OOoof!


I am a bit skeptical. I agree that our experience of music (and everything) changes with better historical knowledge, and I don't doubt that "learning what to listen for" can really affect what we hear. At the same time, how strong can the blues footprints on some of this music be if a bunch of folks, experienced in listening to and playing music, and living in a time soaked in blues and blues related music, can't readily hear it until after it is explained to them.

Is there a "kings new clothes" effect that kicks in to resolve the cognitive dissonance that occurs when told by experts there is something there you don't actually experience?

[JeffD]

The connection of specific musical features with specific cultural feelings is dubious. The connections are not entirely spurious, but its harder to find the more reductionistically you approach it. Is there an interval for oppression. A strain or progression for hopelessness, or rootlessness? Does the juxtaposition of these tones with those tones naturally evoke that feeling in the listener?

In some cases I suppose. But in others it takes a great deal of cultural knowledge to know what you are supposed to feel about something.

[Beanzy]

Bearing in mind the multi-faceted roots of The Blues are we too quick to use the term 'the blues' when we mean something older or when recognising / identifying an element which comes from one of the many influenes that gave rise to The Blues? Shouldn't we be careful not to obscure those other areas where some of the same influences played out and grew on a different shoot?.

[Randi Gormley]

Just had an interesting discussion last night with another musician who said he always had the idea that the timbre of medieval instruments mimicked the voices of those people, a timbre we don't recall because we've refined our music since then and overlaid what came before. So things like krummhorns, snakes and bombardes actually were more like the human singing/talking voice of their makers than we think (if musical instruments were man's attempt to mimic the human voice, that is.) That would make things like nose singing or throat singing or the pops and whirrs of some aboriginal languages (stuff that we European types find non-musical or atonal) had their counterpart in European voices back in the day. It was an interesting concept, whether I've managed to explain it or not.

[catmandu2]

Bearing in mind the multi-faceted roots of The Blues are we too quick to use the term 'the blues' when we mean something older or when recognising / identifying an element which comes from one of the many influenes that gave rise to The Blues? Shouldn't we be careful not to obscure those other areas where some of the same influences played out and grew on a different shoot?.

I’m totally on-board with this, Eoin. What other term(s) should we use? My own acculturation, monolingualism, and limited knowledge of history is certainly inadequate for this task. The term “blues” seems to have been cultivated most widely in service of connoting particular aspects of human pathos, but it is most certainly insufficient

The discursive language of words and verbal communication is cumbersome at best in conveying our feelings and sensibilities and interpreting our experience of sound, and completely inadequate in describing the ineffable. We rely on metaphor, and imagination; but music is perhaps the highest order, in respect here - http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16178

[belbein]

This summer I was taking a course with an ethnomusicologist from Kentucky. (The course was in one of the lesser instruments, but please don't judge me.) She told me that in the early part of the 20th century, in the South, blacks and whites would all go to tent revivals together. "Together" meaning, of course, that they did not quite sit check by jowel in the tent. But according to her, a great deal of the cross-polination of "Negro spirituals" into low-church Protestant music and then into mainstream country and folk, came from there. And of course it worked in the other direction, too.

I had never heard this before, and I have not studied it, but I thought I'd pass it along.

[Tom Smart]

...how strong can the blues footprints on some of this music be if a bunch of folks, experienced in listening to and playing music, and living in a time soaked in blues and blues related music, can't readily hear it until after it is explained to them.

Is there a "kings new clothes" effect that kicks in to resolve the cognitive dissonance that occurs when told by experts there is something there you don't actually experience?

It didn't take any expertise to see through the king's new clothes, just a willingness to look and describe what was there for anyone to see.

Does this song have any blues in it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqsthacqlPw

How about this one?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDVNRJ227lU

The most salient differences, it seems to me, are the color of the performer and the timbre of the voice. The first one also also has more blues notes in the chorus, although both versions include the flat third and, most prominently, the flat seventh.

Are those differences sufficient to say that one version is blues-influenced but the other is not? Alternatively do those differences make it easy to hear the blues influence in one but not the other?

Or, third possibility, are they both lacking in any blues influence?

[catmandu2]

Duende

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16830

[JeffD]

Does this song have any blues in it?

...

How about this one?

...

The most salient differences, it seems to me, are the color of the performer and the timbre of the voice. The first one also also has more blues notes in the chorus, although both versions include the flat third and, most prominently, the flat seventh.

Are those differences sufficient to say that one version is blues-influenced but the other is not? Alternatively do those differences make it easy to hear the blues influence in one but not the other?

Or, third possibility, are they both lacking in any blues influence?

Great side by side. My response would be that the first one is perhaps less bluesy than I would have expected from Leadbelly. But I can hear it. Especially in the guitar style. But there is a prejudice here, because I am quite familiar with Leadbelly's music, so perhaps I have become accustomed to the association with blues. But if you were to say here's some blues from Leadbelly, and played that, well it would not be what I expected.

In the Carter family its even harder for me to hear it as bluesy. I question if I have a cultural prejudice here too, in not associating Carter Family with the blues, so making it harder for me to hear. And I don't think so, really. I am not as familiar with Carter Family, (much more recent passion) and can't as easily identify the guitar styled as Maybelle's. But no, even when I try, its hard to hear it as bluesy.

Bluesy being a continuum, I am sure there is overlap. If we compared the least bluesy Leadbelly offering with the most bluesy Carter Family, would I hear it. I would hope so.

[TheBlindBard]

I never thought this topic would get this big, but I'm loving it. All of what I know about music history is what I learned in a "history of popular music" class in my school, mainly where the blues came from, how that bled into rock n' roll and metal later on. Aside from that,I don't know alot. This is a wonderful thread to read, so much information :)
Did I hear somebody mention Jack Kerouaac? Love his books-poetry. If you haven't listened to it, check out "the beat generation" I think that's the poem, anyways. Lovely imagery, especially when describing the band. sadly, there was no mandolin, but hey.

[Beanzy]

This summer I was taking a course with an ethnomusicologist from Kentucky. (The course was in one of the lesser instruments, but please don't judge me.) She told me that in the early part of the 20th century, in the South, blacks and whites would all go to tent revivals together. "Together" meaning, of course, that they did not quite sit check by jowel in the tent. But according to her, a great deal of the cross-polination of "Negro spirituals" into low-church Protestant music and then into mainstream country and folk, came from there. And of course it worked in the other direction, too.

I had never heard this before, and I have not studied it, but I thought I'd pass it along.

The old "First Awakening" and especially the "Second Awakening" are worth looking into to see what the songbooks of hyms and tunes had to offer and give some insight into the raw material that was indeed common to many as far back as the Late 1700s. It's from those influences that much of the shared developments came, but this wasn't some fixed form. It was a coctail mixed differently in many areas. The later hymns of people like Stephen Foster, Fanny Crosby give a good idea of what was going on in terms of the raw material. But this then was taken up by many people in many styles in many different places. From my reading there was much re-packaging of an idealised image of the southern black culture in the 1800's so it could be served to a genteel audience. Not all of it was what you'd call successful even by the different standards of the time.

Just for reference we use the flattened 3rd 5th & 7th loads in Irish music too, but as a garnish rather than a main course so I don't get too hung up on finding them lying about unless they're there as a defining tone. Leadbelly is a great example of a musician steeped in the blues style taking folk songs like John Hardy and making them Blues. His "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" is just the most unsetlling song I ever heard as a child.

[JeffD]

His "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" is just the most unsetlling song I ever heard as a child.

Oh yea. I lost track of Leadbelly's version, but found it again, after listening to Louvin Brothers (In the Pines). A young friend of mine said the Leadbelly version is the version Nirvana did. Which would make sense.

Powerful stuff.

[Pasha Alden]

At Neil
An interesting view. Anyhow those who think kilts are worn superficially think again. I am a Scottish lady in SA and I take wearing my kilt seriously. <big smile> "wink>