What makes a 'god of the contemporary mandolin world'?

[MK in NC]

I ran across this blurb (http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/index.php/mandolin-luithers/nugget-mandolins.html) on the Acoustic Music Company's website:


Mike Kemnitzer, also known as Nugget mandolins, is one of the legendary modern mandolin luthiers. Mike, Steve Gilchrist, Lynn Dudenbostel and John Monteleone are the four gods of the contemporary mandolin world.

The quotation offered a convenient excuse to launch into a topic that has been intriguing me lately. What makes certain brands of mandolin leap to the head of the class in terms of prices customers are willing to pay to get them?

The law of supply and demand certainly has to play a role. None of these builders is flooding the market with new product. But none would command five-figure prices if some other factor hadn't played a role.

So what is it? Sound? If so, what makes the sound quality that much better?

Is it materials used? Craftsmanship? Durability? Celebrity endorsements? Other critical factors?

It also would be interesting to read your thoughts about the accuracy of the assertion made in that quote (which might be several years old, for all I know). Are these four builders considered the tops among Cafe readers? Should anyone be added to the list? Is there any other builder who would have been considered part of the pantheon 5-10 years ago but no longer gets this attention?

Thanks for your expertise on this topic.

[Michael Bridges]

Don't know if I'd go so far as "Gods", but they are certainly four of the most highly regarded builders around. Excellence of fit and finish, tone, and playability certainly would be at the top of my list why they draw the praise they do. I'd gladly trade my first born male child for a "F" from any of those guys!

[Denny Gies]

I'd have to add Randy Wood to the celestial bodies.

[DataNick]

Uh-Oh! Pandora's box is opened up now...buckle your seat belts for the why he/she should or should not be on the list...yawn! (not the list, the bickering!)

[UsuallyPickin]

A stated above..... tone .. playability.. fit and finish .... availability ..name recognition among players, top quality materials. I'd say that in any list of ten top mandolin builders those four would appear with the most regularity. Randy Wood , Michael Heiden, Tom Ellis , Oliver Apitius, Will Kimble , Don MacRostie, Paul Duff, Fletcher Brock, would appear nearly as often though their mandolins aren't "quite" as pricey or well known. When you get into the level of quality that these luthiers produce "best" is often a matter of personal feel and tonal palette taste. Insofar as factory production highend models of Gibson, Weber and Collings are mandolins of a very high level of quality these days. And it is a Gibson factory model from 23' or 24', that is "generally" recognized as the top of the line arch top mandolin. S'truth I wouldn't kick any of the above out of my collection........ R/

[JeffD]

What makes certain brands of mandolin leap to the head of the class in terms of prices customers are willing to pay to get them?

Sound? If so, what makes the sound quality that much better? Is it materials used? Craftsmanship? Durability?


That's pretty much it. In general more people think they sound better, play easier, and are better made.


Celebrity endorsements?

I don't think this has much impact. The best mandolinners out there generally play really good mandolins, but I don't think too many are sold because of who plays them. Most mandolin players of any experience can tell what is great, what is good, and what is eh, and can discern and describe what is good about a maker's wares.

[stevedenver]

what about Hans?
hes a god too, man (best Almost Famous lead singer whining voice)

ill tell you one thing, I wish I could have enough experience to play several of each of these builders' works so I would have my own opinion. I no longer believe that market price, per se, necessarily corresponds with quality alone and apart from market or name recognition. This by no means however challenges that these builders are indeed superb and the top of the heap. I just wish I could make my own assessment.

[Michael Bridges]

I think for the next Cafe contest, a "Test Drive" should be the grand prize, of as many examples of these wonderful Top-Enders as possible. That would be a glorious day!

[Randolph]

Hmmm...or perhaps Harumph. Who might be the Goddesses in this grand pantheon?:cool:

[OldSausage]

What is it? It is our collective wisdom + high profile player endorsements + good marketing + luck.

[Charles E.]

When people write stuff like that, it is rediculous. I am sure if you asked any of these gentleman if they thought of themselves as "God's of the mandolin world", they would laugh.


......or would they?

[mandopete]

Price.

[OldSausage]

When people write stuff like that, it is rediculous. I am sure if you asked any of these gentleman if they thought of themselves as "God's of the mandolin world", they would laugh.


......or would they?

If they did laugh, it would be like "Bwahahahahahaaaugh!"

[mandocrucian]

http://www.darnellworks.com/attik/images/zeus1-m.jpg

...Awesomeness!

[sunburst]

Getting to the top price "club" happens for different reasons for different builders. All 4 of the ones listed build top quality mandolins, but there are many others who build top quality and aren't in the price range.
Monteleone started early; the '70s were early as carved top mandolin builders go, and built high quality from the start. There were few mandolin builders at the time, David Grisman appeared on stage and in photos with a Monteleone, and name recognition took hold. He is a prolific builder, and though he builds mostly archtop guitars now, he has built well over 100 mandolins, so they have been available for people to see, hear and play.
Nugget mandolins go back a long way too. High quality from early instruments onward, again few other builders in the early years, Tim O'brien played a Nugget mandolin pretty much exclusively in what may well have been the most popular Bluegrass band (Hot Rise) for many years, so name recognition took hold and there are plenty of them around for people to see, play and hear.
Gilcrist has been amazingly prolific, and though the quality of his early instruments didn't measure up to the American makers (he didn't have any good examples to study!), he caught on pretty fast and has made many hundreds of high quality mandolins. Prominent players have and do use them, they are easy to find, play and hear, and have developed an excellent reputation.
The Dudenbostel story is a little different. Chris Thile has been perhaps the most influential mandolin player in at least a generation. He played Dude #5 ( I think...) with the very influential band Nickel Creek in the internet age. Few builders of any instrument have had one get as much exposure through so many media so early in their building career. There are fewer Dude mandolins than the other builders so they aren't as easy to find, play and hear, yet their reputation has placed them in the highest price range for living builders.

As I said starting out, all 4 build top quality mandolins, but there are plenty of other builders building top quality instruments, but no other can get the prices these 4 can. Sometimes it's because they don't produce enough instruments to gain as much name recognition, sometimes it's because they simply don't charge as much, sometimes it's because they just never "got lucky", some have steadily rising prices and may make it to tier pricing in time, but perhaps the time has passed when it is possible to join the "big 4" at the very top. There are soooooooo many mandolin builders now, and the baby boom generation is aging...

[lorrainehornig]

I feel unequipped to comment on some of these forums because, well, I have little knowledge regarding builders and top quality mandolins, so please excuse my ignorance. By reading these threads I am learning. However, with that being said I think there's more to the equation than the quality of the mandolin being played. The world's top mandolinists could probably blow us away playing a $500 mandolin. I realize there are nuances of sound, but with regard to mandolins, Awesome = (raw talent x 2) + instrument. Also, how many of these high end mandolins are being built? The talent and economic means vs. availability will ultimately determine pricing...especially as these instruments age. This is not to say that the builders being mentioned are anything less than incredible, regardless of the price of their mandolins.

[MK in NC]

Thank you for all of the great comments. Sunburst's thoughtful post came closest to what I expected: It seems at least three of those four "gods" reached their Olympian perches through a combination of high-quality product, good timing, and an association with at least one high-profile mandolin player. (My initial post mentioned "celebrity endorsement," though that was worded poorly. What I meant was an association of the brand with a player of the caliber of a Grisman, O'Brien, or Thile.)

The one outlier, based on Sunburst's description, is Gilchrist. If I read the post above correctly, Gilchrist mandolins are more plentiful and accessible. Sunburst also mentioned no high-profile player who would have given the brand a nudge into the pricing stratosphere.

None of this discussion was meant to celebrate or denigrate any builders. I was just curious about the factors that would have made a music-store owner plug these four particular luthiers in such flowery prose.

[sunburst]

...Sunburst also mentioned no high-profile player who would have given the brand a nudge into the pricing stratosphere.

None of this discussion was meant to celebrate or denigrate any builders. I was just curious about the factors that would have made a music-store owner plug these four particular luthiers in such flowery prose.

For Gilchrist mandolins, it's a long list of high-profile players, not one in particular. (To be fair, more than one high profile player has played instruments made by more than one of the "gods".) Players such as Ronnie McCoury, Tom Rosum, Sharron Gilchrist, Mike Compton, and others have helped put Gilchrist's name where it is today.

Flowery prose used to sell instruments, well, that surely is at least in part influenced by Stan Jay. Going back to the days of the paper newsletter from Mandolin Brothers, his colorful approach to the English language has been a source of amusement for some and disgust for others, but nothing is not influential.

[JeffD]

I was just curious about the factors that would have made a music-store owner plug these four particular luthiers in such flowery prose.

Mediocre ad writer overwhelmed by real quality products.

[Alex Orr]

I recently saw a Wayne Henderson mandolin in the Classifieds that was going for something in the five figures, maybe $15k? That's got to be a combo of legendary skill and the fact that there simply can't be very many mandos from Wayne. Even his guitar outptut, which is what he primarily builds, is legendarily slow compared to most other builders. Curious, anyone play one of his mandos?

[Jim Garber]

These guys (not gods, for sure) can get those prices because buyers are willing to pay those prices. I can certainly make a mandolin and ask $20,000 but even if it was up to the same standards of quality and tone, it would not sell. The market will always dictate the price. If I ask $20K for my hypothetical mandolin and it does not sell, then I ask less until it does.

When I was looking for a high-quality mandola in the mid 1980s there was not much out there. I played a used one by a west coast maker but didn't like the tone or the scale length. I visited John Monteleone and he had two GA mandolas and they were exquisite. The price was about the most expensive at the time for a new mandola, but I scraped together enough money to buy it. IIRC his mandolins were around $3000 then.

One other thing that might affect a luthier's pricing is when their used instruments start changing hands for as much or more than their new ones. The maker gets nothing from that but notice that his or her instruments are getting more desirable -- once again the market at work.

[Tobin]

I agree, Jim. There's no magic formula or voodoo involved here. It comes down to building a quality product, providing good customer service, and establishing a reputation over time. If people want your mandolins, and you find the demand exceeding your ability to supply, you raise the price until they balance out. And vice-versa, if you started out too high. The market is what ultimately determines the price, not the maker. And the used market is, in this case, a good indicator of the demand for a maker's product.

Celebrity endorsements do help boost a builder's name. But at the end of the day, mandolin players are a pretty serious crowd and aren't going to follow fads. As we can all see here on the Cafe, mandolin players are very knowledgeable about their instruments and really enjoy delving into the details. They won't be fooled by an expensive price tag that doesn't live up to the quality requirement. There's only one way a builder can command a 5-digit price tag for his product, and that's by building a product that warrants it.

[MK in NC]

These guys (not gods, for sure) can get those prices because buyers are willing to pay those prices. I can certainly make a mandolin and ask $20,000 but even if it was up to the same standards of quality and tone, it would not sell. The market will always dictate the price. If I ask $20K for my hypothetical mandolin and it does not sell, then I ask less until it does.


Yes, the law of supply and demand works. The original question dealt largely with the demand side of that equation.

The supply side seems pretty clear with these builders. None is cranking out a bunch of new mandolins at one time — certainly not the volume of a Collings or Weber.

But scarcity alone isn't going to convince anyone to drop 20K for a new mandolin. If so, I would promise to build one and only one mandolin ever and charge 20K. (Then I could change my name and do the same thing again, but that's another story.) No one would buy it, and no one with any wits about him would buy my homemade mandolin for $50 either.

The critical piece of the question is what drives the demand. At the IBMA exhibit hall last weekend, I saw an incredibly beautiful two-point from a California-based luthier who spends months on each creation. He was charging $3,200 for that instrument. Is it as good as a Nugget, Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, or Monteleone? "Good" is subjective, but I certainly would not have judged the "god group" to be five times as "good" based on looks alone.

Since I am not an expert, I wondered what other factors might have contributed to this kind of price differential. That was a key reason for the original post.

[Jim Garber]

When I bought my Monteleone mandola I was playing on a 1920 H4 that was adequate but lost tone and volume in the upper registers. I was starting up a mandolin quartet at the time and could hear the difference. The Monteleone has tone and balance throughout the range. I have played a few examples of each of the "gods" (as well as a good handful of high end vintage instruments including Loars and Italian bowlbacks) and they have that depth of tone and responsiveness throughout their ranges. The same thing goes for quality guitars.

As usual, that is not to say that they are less expensive makers who have achieved the same thing -- in fact that it what I personally look for. They are definitely out there and nowadays there are many truly incredible luthiers, much more so than in the 1980s.

A year or two after I bought my mandola I called John to see what a mandolin would cost for a "repeat offender". I realized that I could not afford it having cleaned out my savings back then. Having played a few from that era, I wish I had.

[sunburst]

When I built my second mandolin I was working for a company. That mandolin, and several after it, had the well known name of my employer inlaid in the peghead, not my name. They sold as fast as I could make them at prices that were near the top of the market at the time. Then, when I started putting my own name in the peghead, people said "Who??!".
Now, approximately 30 years later, with my low output of mandolins, I'm in the mid price ranges, even with the benefit of all the building experience of the years in between. Obviously, the quality has gone up, but the price (relative to prices in general) has gone down. You can say what you want about supply and demand, quality products and the market determining price, but from my perspective, name, reputation, circumstances, number of mandolins built and well known players have very much influence on the market and it's determining of prices.

[trevor]

Hi Mk,

As you suspected I wrote that quite a few years ago.. Perhaps gods was the wrong choice of words? I'm glad its lead to a very interesting and informative discussion. I agree that there are many great makers around, some have come to my notice since I wrote that.

[MK in NC]

Hi, Trevor. Thank you for the response.

My intent was not to pick on you or the "flowery language" you used to describe those four particular builders. You have an outstanding website for what I expect is a top-of-the-line establishment.

I had been wondering about the factors that would lead some mandolins to fetch particularly high prices. After conducting a Google search — probably for "nugget mandolin" — I stumbled upon your comment.

Your description of the four "gods" simply provided a good excuse to launch a thread on this topic. I could have asked, "Why do some mandolins cost so much compared to others that look and sound very good?" That question would not have generated as much thought and comment as this thread.

Thank you for all you do to make mandolin enthusiasts happy.

[MK in NC]

You can say what you want about supply and demand, quality products and the market determining price, but from my perspective, name, reputation, circumstances, number of mandolins built and well known players have very much influence on the market and it's determining of prices.

Precisely. All of those factors you mention influence demand.

If I built a mandolin, the demand would be almost nonexistent. I've built none and have no credibility as a craftsman of any type.

You have spent roughly 30 years building your name brand and reputation. You are able to charge in the "mid" price ranges. If a current or rising star picks up a Hamlett today and starts using it regularly for recording and touring, demand for a Hamlett would likely increase. If your supply remains roughly constant, prices would likely rise.

Even without a star, a chorus of compliments from multiple happy Hamlett owners could boost demand. If the supply remains roughly constant, prices would likely rise.

I'm not in the market for another mandolin at the moment, but as soon as I hit send on this entry, I'm going to follow the link to your site to check out your offerings.

[jmagill]

Thank you for all of the great comments. Sunburst's thoughtful post came closest to what I expected:

I also think John Hamlett's first post hit it on the head.

In the late 70's when I was looking for a high-quality (non-Gibson) mandolin, the choices for me came down to just three: Monteleone, Nugget, and Gilchrist.

I played a Gilchrist at Gruhn's and it didn't wow me, so that left Nugget and Monteleone. I eventually went with Monteleone's Grand Artist because I liked the design and his heretical notion that mandolin design didn't end with Lloyd Loar.

By the time the 'second wave' of Ellis, Duff, Heiden, Kimble, Brock, etc. came along, Monteleone, Nugget, and Gilchrist already had a well-established reputation for top-quality instruments, and could charge accordingly.

Dudenbostel's story was new to me, but intriguing, and sounds very plausible.

[ccravens]

I recently saw a Wayne Henderson mandolin in the Classifieds that was going for something in the five figures, maybe $15k?

Curious, anyone play one of his mandos?

Yes. I was underwhelmed. But maybe I was a little biased in my evaluation, since it was based partially on knowing what the prices are. Still, I've played some much lesser-priced mandos that I would have taken over it, if given the choice. Some Webbers, Flatirons, Collings & Northfields come to mind.

And I say that respectfully as Wayne is one of the nicest people you could hope to ever meet. And a heck of a guitar picker.

[JeffD]

The critical piece of the question is what drives the demand. ...

Since I am not an expert, I wondered what other factors might have contributed to this kind of price differential. That was a key reason for the original post.

Well quality drives the demand. Mostly. And an expectation of quality. So a new maker, who is not as well known, won't be able probably to charge as much in the beginning, but assuming his or her work is of the same caliber, over time the demand for his instruments will drive up his price till he is in the range his quality demands.

[fatt-dad]

there is some great insight in this thread! My gut reaction to the OP is, "Branding." The subject 4 seem to have that! The narrative on how it developed is interesting for sure! The cache of those builders is for real though. I just can't afford to learn if they are worth it and am very happy with my mandolins!

Regarding Wayne Henderson: He says he'll build me an a4. It may take a while though. . .

f-d