Prices dropping on high end mandolins? [Archive]

Charlieshafer

Sep-30-2013, 5:59am

I believe there are many answers to this question, all correct. That sounds strange, I know, but it's not simple. How much of it is market over saturation due to the internet, and the ease with which information travels. 10 years or so ago, I would have thought that the Monteleone in the local store was the only one available, and paid big bucks for it. Thanks to all the information, I see there are plenty of Monteleones for sale, so i have no reason to rush or worry that I'll be able to get one. Without the sense of exclusivity or urgency, the demand drops, and so does the price (or at least the perceived price, another story entirely). In a sense, the Mandolin Cafe has made scarcity of upper-end instruments obsolete, at least as far as mandolins go.

That said, I do believe the economy has hurt everything, to lesser or greater degrees. From my own personal and anecdotal experience here in Connecticut, I know my own cabinet/house restoration business is still way off, and interestingly enough, the slackening was delayed until after the recession was declared "over." I think people tried to spend like there was no lasting impression, but it finally caught up to them, and now we hear a lot of "yeah, sorry, but I can't afford that now, maybe next year." And those prices we're quoting are even a little less than what they were 5 years ago, so when you factor in the normal costs like gas, insurance, etc., income is down, for sure. This is the exact same story I hear from most all of my competitors and collaborators. Yeah, we're busy, and we're getting the bills paid, barely, but the extra cash isn;t there anymore. I'm sure this doesn't affect every profession and every region, but how many heart surgeons at top hospitals around the country need expensive mandolins?

Then there's demographics. The population of folks who can afford these are shrinking in numbers. As careers advance, so do the age of the children who are the progeny of these professionals. That means college costs. And unless you're one of the "1%" or whatever the term is for those with lots of disposable wealth, you're now basically broke. So that means you have to be well past those years, and that means you probably have enough mandolins, or whatever, and now just trade for fun, not urgency, which is what drives a market. If you're young and reasonably fresh out of college, you probably have killer student loans, so that pretty much ends that.

Fortunately, everything is cyclical, so at some point in someone's future, something will probably be just fine.

Tom Sanderson

Sep-30-2013, 6:36am

When I put my Nugget F5 up for sale a year and a half ago for $22,500 (I paid $25,000 for it in 2006) I got offers of $15,000. That's when I decided that I will keep it for the rest of my life. That makes the dollar value a mute point to me. It's really a relief, now I just play it and enjoy it for what it is - one of the finest mandolins available at any price.

Astro

Sep-30-2013, 7:24am

All those are good points. I think with any high end product though (mercedes, whatever) there is a large drop off in the prices once you "roll them off the lot". Very few of anything becomes collectable and holds or increases value. The higher the price, the greater the devaluation.

Also, I would think that with modern tools and materials, luthiers may be able to build their instruments quicker and/or with less back breaking effort. So they may be building more per year than they did 20 years ago.

Thanks to modern materials/tools, the intermediate level instruments are better and there are more builders.

Also, cheaper mandolins have gotten better. Way better.

I know we are talking different markets here and its only a soft effect. But probably has some impact. Especially in conjunction with the recession. Folks will say yeah I really want that 25k instrument but this 5k instrument is almost as good. Then the next tier down will say I really want that 5k instrument but this 1200 dollar one is almost as good. Then the next tier really want that 1200 dollar instrument but that 400 dollar one is almost as good. And they are all right.

See the thread on "trading down my mandolin". You can find "cheaper" mandolins that sound better than some "expensive" mandolins. Its the nature of the beast.

On the flip side, I think we are living through the golden era of stringed instruments. Same thing happened with guitars. I cant believe how good some of these 500 dollar guitars are. Playability, tone, consistency. Once they figured out how to mass produce a decent instrument by quickly training average workers into skilled workers with modern tools, the Pac Rim's eager and cheap labour force took it to heart and the numbers went up and the prices came way down.

So maybe with the recession, there has been a "trickle up" effect causing a relative decline of prices on higher end instruments? Maybe Baby Boomers aren't buying high end mandos anymore?

Maybe everyone switched over to ukelele ?

nickster60

Sep-30-2013, 8:18am

Another business owner here. Business is up but people don't want to pay much. In some cases I am charging what I did ten years ago. You work harder and make less. Many of my customers are self employed and they are seeing the same thing. You work harder, you make less and hence you spend less. After 20 years with a successful business I think the rewards just aren't worth the effort. This will be my last year I am going to sell my business. The handwriting is on the wall it is time to go work for the government in one way shape or form. If I was in the market for a mandolin I think I would just wait or drive a really hard bargain. If it wasn't a killer deal I would just live with what I have,which isn't bad.

Dan Margolis

Sep-30-2013, 8:37am

Many high-end mandolins are built each year, adding to a pool of pricey instruments, yet how many mandolin players are out there to buy them? Most will never be in the market for even a $5k instrument, let alone a $20k one.

Mandobar

Sep-30-2013, 8:51am

Gary Hedrick

Sep-30-2013, 9:01am

Case in point, used Heiden A in the classifieds, priced at over what the new one that Michael is selling himself. Same with the Stiver Two-point ($5400 used, $5800 new). The price for Gilchrist F5's is under $20k now. And there is a Nugget A at Olde Town Pickin' Parlor in CO for a little over $6k. I was shocked to see it.

It's a buyers market, but you have to realize that some people are still making the same old assumptions on market values.

You are exactly right.....the market has shifted and there are a number of dealers and individual sellers that are yet to wake up and smell the coffee.

There are a number of instruments on the Café....on Ebay and in the hands of dealers that are examples of delusional pricing and of acknowledgement of the reality of today. For example....a 1921 F4 ....no pickguard....good shape...non original case isn't going to sell for $6.5k (IMHO).......and on the other hand there is a great looking .....all there 1937 F4 that seems to not be able to sell for $4.6k.......and then there is that A3 maple back for in the mid teens $'s.....why isn't it selling?

Interesting times indeed....but presenting appraisals from George Gruhn from 2008 and asking that amount isn't reality in today's market again (IMHO)....

William Smith

Sep-30-2013, 9:52am

Prices have been on a decline but you wouldn't know it because people and dealers are still selling on the "high" side. That's why the same instruments sit for years and years. 20G is a lot, heck 5G is a lot for a mandolin when you can maybe settle for something just as good for cheaper. Like Dan said how many mando pickers are there that want to shell out that $? Use a 20's Loar F-5 for example, in todays reality I don't know who would shell out up to and over 200G for a mandolin, that's why the ones that have that high cash amount are still sitting and in some cases they've been sitting for years for sale! People want to be made to feel like they got a good deal. I'm also pretty sure that dealers do not pay 200G for a Loar so how much profit can they live with out? Maybe I'm wrong?

Markus

Sep-30-2013, 10:21am

Maybe Baby Boomers aren't buying high end mandos anymore?

The market we recently saw was driven, at least to a small extent, by being the point where there was a large demographic group [Baby Boomers] getting to the age where `expensive toys' were affordable. Couple that to a decent stock market for a few decades and cheap/easy credit - there were a lot of people in the buying pool.

I'm from the generation after. There aren't as many of us, a lot of us married later, had kids later ... the stock market is still quite good but as opposed to the steady stream of Boomers getting to the high-end-mando-buying market that there was - Gen X is not replacing those numbers at the same rate.

Add to that the steady increasing #'s of top mandolins and new luthiers, increasing quality of all mandolins in the market - it will likely be a buyer's market for a while.

Mandolins that have an incredible resonance and sound will be sought after and have a high price. Always.

I don't doubt that a lot of these high-end mandolins available have that, but at some level of high price/quality it gets hard to sell online what can only be heard/felt in person.

Just my 2 cents.

Killian King

Sep-30-2013, 11:55am

You work harder and make less. Many of my customers are self employed and they are seeing the same thing. You work harder, you make less and hence you spend less.

This is not only true for small business owners. I am more surprised that the market for high end merchandise has remained as steady as it has in the face of economic uncertainty.

Mike Scott

Sep-30-2013, 11:56am

My take on it is this: It always boils down to supply and demand. For those who remember their Econ 101 there are graphs that explain it to some extent, but............... Anyway from a demand standpoint, using me as an example (I generally consider myself "the everyman") I would think there are a limited number of folks willing to pay more than $5K for a mando, and as the price goes up from there the number of potential buyers has to drop off quickly.

As has been pointed out already, the supply continues to increase. So, with my rudimentary econ skill/knowledge, the only thing that can happen is for the prices to decline somewhat. How far? That's why Econ is the theoretical side of business. It needn't quantify the theory-ha ha.

That's this old guy's $.02 on the subject.

roberto216

Sep-30-2013, 12:03pm

I can't speak as to why prices seem to be dropping. Perhaps there are many more excellent but more reasonable choices these days.

When looking at some of the high end instruments for sale, I wonder what exactly makes them high end sometimes other than the name on the headstock. I also wonder what the profit margin is on these instruments too.

Willie Poole

Sep-30-2013, 12:18pm

I think that many performers have found that the people that listen to their music don`t care if it is played on a 20,000 dollar mandolin or a 500 dollar one so why invest in something that isn`t needed, not many folks going in for the "Collectors" mandolins that there was in the past, as we get older we wonder why we collected anything at all, things just clutter up our houses and then when we want to sell them we can`t find anyone that wants to pay a decent price for these "Collectors" items...

As one of the above said "It is just my opinion"...

Willie

Phil Goodson

Sep-30-2013, 12:59pm

If I could figure out all this stuff, then I'd probably be able to make more money and increase the demand for upper end mandos and then the prices would drop less. Right?? :confused: ;)

rippeymandos

Sep-30-2013, 1:55pm

This should get a lot of discussion. Good question! When I started looking at mandolins and being completely broke, it was always my goal to get the best bang for the buck when I did buy......13 years later. What I saw was a combination of this, some already discussed, and some not.
1) Before the internet was huge there was the, "only one available" was the one you saw at a store or festival
2) Before what I refer to as the "Renaissance of Mandolin Building", there were really only high end builders and lower end imports. Short of the 80's Kentucky's, there wasn't much bang for the buck. At this point if you had a Monteleone, Randy Wood, etc...chances are you were happy with that mandolin and wouldn't sell it, unless someone really offered what "you" thought it was worth to pry it from your fingers. If you were the only one in the state with a Randy Wood, chances are, someone would have to make you an offer worth selling, as it really wasn't for sale.
3) Then the internet with the rapid information exchange, lets people like me find mandolins on the West Coast off of their classifieds, for years it was really just the cafe and eBay, now with Craigslist, and most small dealers and builders have there own website. There is a good point to what someone said earlier, now as a consumer, I know this isn't the only Randy Wood available.
4)Then came all of these great builders that were influenced by the Randy Woods, Bob Givens, John Hutto's, Wayne Henderson's, John Schofield, Pag, etc. The early artists that paved the way for Weber's(who really hit the market hard in the early to mid 2000's). They were everywhere. But were a decent bang for the buck compared to the prices, of the old guard. Then came "The Renaissance".....there have been some great builders from late 90's to now! When these builders built reputations, even more builders popped up. Now there is a variety of great mandolins to choose from.
5) Then the big Recession. Before the recession prices for the old guards remained good on their mandolins and we considered them the "Cream" so they stayed high until the recession. Once the recession hit, people really started looking for the best "bang" for the buck, not the name on the label, but the sound coming out of the mandolin. For many, they were probably surprised that some guy in a little shop somewhere like Riner, VA could be putting out such good sounding mandolins for the price. At the same time, this recession put a lot of builders out of the game(Darby Boofer, James A. Parker, while some like Ward Elliott went to only making A's before just resorting to repair and setups), and simultaneously opened the door to the younger builders who were willing to lean on CNC machines to cut down on their labor.
6) Some of these younger builders using more machinery really build GREAT! mandolins, and if you caught them early in there careers, at GREAT prices. Examples would be Chris Baird, BRW, Marty Jacobson, and the likes. These guys must have mastered saving time! So now, post recession, there are builders building great mandolins, quickly, and are a good value.
7) The power of the A style. The days of needing a scroll for $3000 are over for a lot of people. Take just about any respected builder and look at the price of a fully adorned A and F. One can argue the F sounds better, but most builders would tell you there A's sound the same, but cost ALOT less. The realization that a $2500 A can sound the same as $5000 F, in this economy has had some asking, "do I need the scroll for twice the price?"

rippeymandos

Sep-30-2013, 2:07pm

8)Good Imports-The Eastman, The Northfields, and now The Lafferty's that are Asian
And finally, in this economy for someone at my skill level, I don't need a "Nugget", especially with a scroll. Sure, I would like to have one, but for the $2500 range I like to stay in, I can get some really good sounding mandolins!
As a side note, when I started buying mandolins, I did buy F's. And I was buying small shop, up-and-comers. What I found was, for me personally, the scroll was uncomfortable, so when I got my first A, I didn't want a scroll on the mandolins I would play. So, I do buy F styles, but more for collector value. Since these prices are what they are and the Hutto's, Dearstone's, Randy Woods are selling so low, I do believe it is a good investment. I like to think of my F styles, now as the ones I won't play but have invested in. For this reason, the F's I have, were built by the guys who have stopped building(Carlson), who have passed(Hutto), or who are reaching up there in years that they may not be building much longer(Randy Wood). I doubt they can get much less expensive than they are now! I hope I am right.
At the same time of all of this.....look at waht the prices for Loars have done. While everything went down, they have appeared to rise. What I think is also weird, not only is this a "Renaissance" of mandolin building, but there seems to more mandolin than ever. More players, more popular, etc....There are so many talented young pickers as well as talented young builders. I think these past two years have been very interesting putting a real value on a mandolin.
Again, just an amateur opinion. I like the thread though!
Regards,
Seth

Mandobar

Sep-30-2013, 2:17pm

I've had people offer me instruments at ridiculous prices, I've had a few quote a price etc. and then say its too good to sell, and reneg only to be back looking to sell again. So, some of the lingering in the classifieds and at dealers is self-inflicted. Price it fair, it will sell.

There are people out there with money, but they want to get a fair deal. Not a steal, just a fair deal.

Russ Jordan

Sep-30-2013, 2:27pm

Clement Barrera-Ng

Sep-30-2013, 3:40pm

I think overall, people are much more price conscientious with their purchases at every level of the price scale, and money is being poured into things that seem to be bargains. My suspicion is that those who can afford top tiered mandolins aren't cash poor, but the money is being spent on things that are bigger bargains at the moment, like real estate and stocks.

f5loar

Sep-30-2013, 3:41pm

I never thought I would see a good A5 model go for more money than a good F5 model no matter who made it. You can get a whole lot of F5 for 12K or way less. But MAS still rules
your mind so anything is possible in today's crazy market.

William Smith

Sep-30-2013, 4:07pm

Great point F5loar!, so true. And I'm not so sure about the whole A is better than F or F is better than A, each gourd is different!, I have a friend that had 2 Stivers, same year but one F-5 and one A-5, He sold the F-5 because he liked the sound of the A better, Well to my ears I couldn't believe he did that, I thaught the F was way better, while both sounded great but still different, I think its all personal preference! And well MASS yes MASS!

OldSausage

Sep-30-2013, 4:40pm

Maybe the world is running short of old white guys. What a calamity.

f5loar

Sep-30-2013, 5:59pm

I saw dozens of under 30s at the IBMA that no doubt will replace us old white guys and they too will be seeking their ultimate mando axe to feed their MAS.

Eddie Sheehy

Sep-30-2013, 6:01pm

"Dozens", huh? That's comforting for us hundreds of old white guys...

re simmers

Sep-30-2013, 6:49pm

My 23 yr old nephew is in his 2nd year at an investment firm after graduating with honors from a large university. He recently visited and we were in my wood shop looking at furniture I'm refinishing (a sideline). He was shocked that anyone would pay to repair or finish furniture. He buys used, cheap furniture or gets free furniture that's left over after colleges let out in May. He buys everything 'on the cheap.' He said he will never buy a home...worst investment out there! He doesn't own a car, but takes the metro and subway (lives in the city). He invests a little in the market, but mostly saves his money, and spends it on experience, like travel, ball games, big concerts. I spoke to some friends of mine with kids in this situation and I heard the same story.

My point is this: the babyboomers are aging into retirement/fixed income and can't spend (or invest) in instruments, antiques, collectables. And their kids can't afford it because they can no longer sponge off their now-retired parents. And the grandkids (like my nephew) have no interest and see no value in it.

There are exceptions, and there are other things that impact the market.

Example: "The Hustler" w/Paul Newman came out in the 1960's and the "pool table at home" business exploded for 25 years.

If we can get a mandolin player movie, "The Life of Bill Monroe" to go to #1, then maybe the mandolin market will explode. They should consider srapping the part where he carves out "The G______" on the headstock.

That said, I am 54 yrs old and will probably have to work until I am 70+. I love my Buckeye and hope to buy another one someday. They are $5K, and to me, it's worth every penny and more! :mandosmiley:

Bob

Charlieshafer

Sep-30-2013, 7:10pm

Well, maybe once they get their college loans paid off.

Mike Arakelian

Sep-30-2013, 7:45pm

I got a chance to see a 1924 Gibson F5 at IBMA this past weekend with a price tag of ONLY $175,000. Didn't buy it, but got a good picture though. :)

f5loar

Sep-30-2013, 10:04pm

One of the finest Fern Loars I've played too. It was a real picker's Loar at a picker's price too. If it were minty it would have been another $50K. Well I said "dozens" probably should have said "hundreds". Way too many to count anyway. Everywhere I turned I saw these young "Steffey" clones picking there 10 notes per second. And I think for the first time at a huge festival I attended, Gibson did not dominate the mandolin market of sampling. There were makers that had huge booths at the convention I've never even heard of.

roysboy

Sep-30-2013, 10:35pm

Not sure how many Cafe members are professional musicians....I'd be curious .

Thing is ,as a professional musician here in Canada my entire working life ( nearly 50 years )and knowing hundreds of professional players , the 'scene ' has never been worse in terms of generating an income from playing gigs or doing sessions . From gigging up to 7 nights a week maybe 12 -14 years ago , the demand for pro players by clubs and studios has steadily declined and , of course , income along with it . Yes ....there is still lots of live music to be found but NOW the gigs pay next to nothing barely even covering gas costs.

A long time friend is west coast rep for a large music store chain and tells me that " bedroom gear" ( 100.00 'stratocasters and 79.00 amplifiers etc..) and student lessons and band equipment rentals through the schools is keeping them afloat , for the most part. The fact is , as any pro musician will tell you , the pros very rarely could afford the high end gear . Unless you are Ricky Scaggs , Thile or a handful of others playing mandolin professionally and at the highest level , its the hobbyists , part timers, folks with ' real jobs ' that could afford all of the high end expensive gear . Now with many of the high-paying 'secure' jobs disappearing , so to is the demand for that high end gear from THAT sector . I know many 'enthusiasts' with VERY expensive gear who's instruments have never seen the light of day ( or the dark of night on a live stage , as the case may be ) . Many just love to own a GREAT instrument to noodle on from time to time.

I think part of the reason prices have come down on LOTS of musical gear has to do with the lack of work a player can generate to afford that gear. Not sure we'll see that change anytime soon with music stores having troubles , CD stores gone and sales of music dwindling , due to downloading and the smaller demand for live musical entertainment by clubs and bars .

Austin Bob

Oct-01-2013, 6:52am

I don't know much about buying and selling instruments, but I always seem to buy high and sell low.

Justus True Waldron

Oct-01-2013, 7:51am

My point is this: the babyboomers are aging into retirement/fixed income and can't spend (or invest) in instruments, antiques, collectables. And their kids can't afford it because they can no longer sponge off their now-retired parents. And the grandkids (like my nephew) have no interest and see no value in it.

I don't know, I graduated from RPI in 2010. Expensive school, but I tried to be smart about it and between scholarships and working I graduated with a minimal amount of loan. It may not be a 15k Nugget in price, but I got my first job not long after graduating and bought my hand built Macica A. I know I have it pretty good, but I also know I'm not the only young person who can afford a nice instrument. I made the decision to drive my beat up car a couple years more so I could have a few nice instruments, and I've never once regretted that decision. I know there are other people that COULD make that decision, it's just a matter of how many serious young mandolin players there actually are. As F5 Loar points out, there are dozens. Cool to see, but probably not going to keep the mando market afloat by themselves...

Rick Crenshaw

Oct-01-2013, 8:42am

I like nice instruments. I have several moderately great guitars and mandolins. Most of my good instruments are in the $3K to $6K range. I do not own the $20+K top end stuff, much less the prewar Martins or Gibson mandolins that command $40K to $150K prices that I see.

I'm married to a pretty smart woman. She is a good business mind and an astute investor. She understands that my 'bought-mostly-used' instrument collection will likely hold most of its value. She gets it that I get to enjoy the collection of my musical instruments every day and use them to make music at home and in public venues. This has value.

What she reminds me of regularly and especially when I want to buy something else is... and I'll paraphrase...

'Who is going to buy these when you are ready to sell? How many of us old, school, upper middle class folks will there be in the market when you are ready to sell? You are 57. Times and the economy are changing. The younger generation won't have the disposable income that we have. AND if they did, the market is smaller than today. We are part of the Baby Boomers. We are all going to be retiring and selling off our collections at the same time. It will be a buyer's market, not a seller's market.'

So... I'm not planning on making my money back. I'm just going to enjoy what I have, trade for what I want, and call that my hobby. Hobbies usually cost some bit of money. Those who work on their hobbies smartly can often make them come out even or sometimes even earn money on them. But thinking of making money on buying and holding instruments is really a thing of the past. Unless you are an excellent horse trader.

Tom Sanderson

Oct-01-2013, 9:02am

. Those who work on their hobbies smartly can often make them come out even or sometimes even earn money on them. But thinking of making money on buying and holding instruments is really a thing of the past. Unless you are an excellent horse trader.

That's exactly what I did. I bought my first mandolins for a low price and sold them for profit. Over the years I made enough so that now I own 2 Nuggets. Both of them have been totally paid for with my profits. So I basically got them for free.

Tobin

Oct-01-2013, 9:04am

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the mandolin market, like many other markets, enjoyed a brief "bubble". The 1990s was a time of booming prosperity which carried through into the 2000s. Everybody felt like it was safe to spend money like it was going out of style. In a manner not unlike the Roaring Twenties, people went a little too far in borrowing money and living beyond their means. This was true of all major expenditures like houses and vehicles, but even extended to luxury items like high-end mandolins. This effect was pervasive in the American lifestyle, and made our economy one huge bubble.

But when bubbles started bursting in certain segments of the economy (i.e. housing and banking), everything else was affected. The mandolin market is no exception. The market reaction was perhaps not as immediate as it was for housing and such, but it has to be related. I think what we're seeing now is that delayed reaction. Reality is finally setting in.

I would classify it as a market correction. The mandolin market does not have a price structure that's set in stone. Prices will vary based on all the same factors as other markets: supply and demand, overall economic prosperity and purchase power, etc.

I'm not quite sure if the Asian mandolin market really has any bearing on this or not. One the one hand, the kinds of folks who can afford a high-end mandolin and understand the difference in quality are probably not going to be lured into buying a Chinese-made mandolin, no matter how nice it looks or sounds. It seems to be an entirely different market for the Nuggets and Dudenbostels than it is for Kentucky mandolins, ya know? But on the other hand, we have guys like Adam Steffey playing a Northfield. Not to say it isn't a nice instrument, but it does change perceptions amongst players. That has to affect the high-end market as well.

Killian King

Oct-01-2013, 9:44am

But on the other hand, we have guys like Adam Steffey playing a Northfield. Not to say it isn't a nice instrument, but it does change perceptions amongst players. That has to affect the high-end market as well.

I have no special knowledge of this, so take it for what it is worth, but does Steffey play the exact same instrument that I could buy right off of the wall? The reason I ask is because I know for a fact that in arena's other than music, sometimes the signature model used by the celebrity is not the same as the for sale item.

Jim Nollman

Oct-01-2013, 2:26pm

I suppose I'm a professional musician, although not always a professional mandolin player. If I was in need of an F5, I'd seriously look at a new Northfield or an old Japanese-built Kentucky. But I wouldn't buy anything unless I played it first, which is why I wouldn't buy from a small shop builder unless he already had a sizable reputation. But there's a catch-22 here, because that same reputation would almost assure that my professional-level paychecks would mean I couldn't afford him.

I would gladly become a customer of that top tier, if I was in the top tier of players making top-tier royalties and/or concert fees.

I read the cafe regularly, and trust what some of the very savvy folks here keep reminding me about the key relationship between tone, looks, and value. You have to become a very knowledgeable hunter to optimize those three factors. AND...you can find great instruments at great value on EBay or on the Cafe Classifieds a few times every month.

One of my personal eccentricities, is that I have never had any interest in Gibson, entirely because of this same relationship between value, looks, and tone. You may get the looks and have a 50/50 chance of getting the tone, but I feel you pay way too much extra money for that brand name. If, for some reason I can't imagine right now, I needed a professional-level antique mandolin, I'd start a search for a Lyon and Healey A or B.

I regularly play 3 mandolins. Only one of them is not off-the-shelf. I bit the bullet on that one because my music demanded a first class jazz mandolin, and I didn't see any jazz mandolins that fit the bill, that weren't also made in a small shop. Even that used beauty cost under $3k.

I know lots of other mandolin players. I don't know any pros who own $10k+ mandolins. The only time I ever seem to see a $10k+ mandolin closeup, is when I visit a bluegrass festival, and jam with devoted amateurs in hotel rooms. I love it when i get a chance to pick one of those instruments. They are always F5s. Only once or twice have I played one that makes me feel my renovated 1984 Kentucky 850 doesn't measure up.

Carlo Carr

Oct-01-2013, 2:27pm

Anybody remember what Duff's sold for pre-2008? My memory may be faulty, be it seems to me they have increased $2k to $3k since then?

If the 2 Henderson mandolins at Carter Vintage sell for near asking price, that will signal an increase in their value.

Russ,

I want to thank you again for making that 'Henderson A' available to me back in 2006! Its a keeper, no matter what Carter Vintage gets for theirs!

Regards,

Charlie Carr
New Orleans

BruceKap

Oct-01-2013, 3:18pm

I am a professional musician, at the small festival and coffeehouse level. Ten years ago, after learning on a Teens beater Gibson A for 5 or 5 years, I purchased a Collings MT for $1650. Since then, I have owned a varnish Collings MT2, A Collings MF, and a number of Gibsons- but I always go ba. I have played Mike Marshall's Loar, a Heiden, a Nugget and stuff from Tom Ellis, Lawrence Smart. And I have to say, I always go back to the MT. It holds its own very nicely. Yes, there are prettier mandolins, and admittedly slightly better sounding mandolins. And you know what? My MT sounded pretty darn good when Mike Marshall played it. So how do I justify paying ten times the money for 10 percent more sound? I think Collings has really raised the price performance curve in favor of performance.

Justus True Waldron

Oct-01-2013, 3:47pm

I know lots of other mandolin players. I don't know any pros who own $10k+ mandolins. The only time I ever seem to see a $10k+ mandolin closeup, is when I visit a bluegrass festival, and jam with devoted amateurs in hotel rooms.

I'll agree with you that I have seen more Dudes/Gils/Nuggets and Monte's in the hands of well off middle aged amateurs than in full time bands... but I still don't think you can just say "I don't know any pros who own $10k mandolins" unless you aren't paying attention. Even if we flat out ignore every pro with a Loar F5 (and that's an awful lot of ignoring in the upper tier of mando players) you've still got people like Wayne Benson with his Fern F5. If you ignore those, you're still left with a lot. Joe Walsh, Dominick Leslie and Andy Leftwich all play Gils (although I think Dom's is actually on loan from Grisman). Tim O has his Nugget hybrid. Chris T has his Dude... and that's just off the top of my head. Yes there is a whole swath of Collings mandolins etc. at the "working band" level, but I can't agree that there aren't "any pros" with upper tier mandos...

Bradley

Oct-01-2013, 4:01pm

I agree totally with Many of the posts above, especially the comment about the ones in the 5K and under range getting better. I have previously owned several Master Models and a great Ellis Mandolin which were both way more expensive that $5K but when I had those I also played a couple of Gilchrists and a Dude along the way and I remember when we played at SPGMA having the chance to play my $10K Ellis against the $20K Gil (and I am not trying to start a flame) but I didn't see the $10K difference in any area other than of course the well recognized name on the headstock.

Now that my Kids have reached college age, my tastes have been forced to change just a bit. Recently I have bought a 2012 F5G and just recently did some "government" work and bought a 2013 Collings MF Glosstop. For my playing, when I am out live is there that much difference between the F5G and the Master Model I had a few years back, or in playability....maybe a little but again not $10K to my ears. And the Collings in every way is a gem to play and listen to, and its a fraction of the cost of the mid market mandolins that I have had in times past but yet provides that poppy contemporary sound.

So yes, for me at age 46 with 30 years or so of playing, trading and buying I wish I knew then what I knew now in that my happiness is in playing and having fun, and not finding a magical mandolin with a 5 figure price tag. For most players its a matter of "is that next level worth the price tag" and unfortunately many find out like I did that it doesn't make that much difference in the long run.

J.Albert

Oct-01-2013, 5:12pm

[[ The mandolin market is no exception. The market reaction was perhaps not as immediate as it was for housing and such, but it has to be related. I think what we're seeing now is that delayed reaction. Reality is finally setting in. ]]

Just a thought, but in the future we'll probably be seeing more Pava's and fewer Ellis'es.

Not that a high-end builder like Tom Ellis may quit altogether, but he and Pava may find that "the future market" lies more in "the intermediate" than the upper end.

I'm wondering when we'll see the first "Pava F" model. The Pava "A" has been very well received, and an "F" could be "an intermediate hit"...

Russ Jordan

Oct-01-2013, 5:52pm

Russ,

I want to thank you again for making that 'Henderson A' available to me back in 2006! Its a keeper, no matter what Carter Vintage gets for theirs!

Regards,

Charlie Carr
New Orleans

Glad you are happy with the Henderson, Charlie!

greg_tsam

Oct-01-2013, 7:52pm

One of the finest Fern Loars I've played too. It was a real picker's Loar at a picker's price too.

Haha..Thanks for the laugh. Picker's price at $175,000? Your pickers are a lot wealthier than the pickers I know, my friend.

I'm sure if I owned a Loar than I'd agree with that statement that the Loars are worth every penny. Realistically, there are less expensive options. I've played Danny Robert's Loar but when I spoke to him at a festival last month he corrected me by saying he HAD a Loar. He let it go. I played two Gil's that weekend and I'd gladly pay if I could afford it. One was so nice it was easily the best I've ever picked on including the DR Loar. .

Still, I wish I had a Loar or a Gil or any of the other top tier mandos you fortunate people have. I don't want to sound like I'm disrespecting these great sounding mandos. But, I'm happy there are plenty of sub $5K and sub $3K mandos that sound good, play good and get the job done so the lower income bracket pickers can still enjoy themselves.

re simmers

Oct-01-2013, 8:45pm

I don't golf, gamble, smoke or drink, and neither does my wife. We don't make much money. I sold a Flatiron that I bought new in '92 for twice what I paid; sold an F12 for $1,400 more than I paid; and I sold a Weber for $200 more than I paid....to buy a custom built Buckeye. If it weren't for all of the above I couldn't have done it. But, I absolutely LOVE the sound, feel and look of a good mandolin. If I could afford it I would be searching for a back-up to the Buckeye....another Buckeye, or maybe an Ellis, an Altman, a Stanley, a Dude or Gil.....and if I had the means....that 'player's Loar.' I will never be good enough money to pay for any of it. It will always be a hobby. I'll sell other stuff, then add my golf, gambling, smoking and drinking money to buy another good one. I get much enjoyment out of my Buckeye.

Bob

chuck3

Oct-01-2013, 9:05pm

the point was made about a $2500 A style vs a $5000 F style - that's about where I'm at - with the A's. One oval hole, one f-hole, both at that $2500 price point. I could afford more if I really wanted but I can't justify paying so much more for the scroll and I can't justify paying much more based on my talent level. I've worked hard at my mando playing and I now get calls for gigs like twice a month on mando, but I'm not at a pro level on it. Maybe someday, or if the mando of my dreams comes along and I just have to have it ....

By way of comparison, I look at upright bass with about the same price point (have two Uptons in that range), and yet I'm considering going up to about $4,000 for a custom Mike Lull bass guitar - but that bass will be the bass of my dreams, and I'll gig it a lot and really know what I'm doing on it.

Great to read everyone's posts, though. I guess I should add that I'm 60 or so, my kids are grown, and my needs are mostly met and I've saved some. So I'm basically deciding on that marginal dollar that will eventually be a retirement dollar ... would I rather have a better mando today, or run the risk of eating cat food when I'm 85 (if I last that long)?

Tobin

Oct-02-2013, 8:32am

Just a thought, but in the future we'll probably be seeing more Pava's and fewer Ellis'es.

Not that a high-end builder like Tom Ellis may quit altogether, but he and Pava may find that "the future market" lies more in "the intermediate" than the upper end.

I'm wondering when we'll see the first "Pava F" model. The Pava "A" has been very well received, and an "F" could be "an intermediate hit"...
I think the main point of the Pava line was to produce an Ellis-quality mandolin at the lowest price point possible*, in order to reach players who want the sound but not the price tag. And they've been very successful with it. Pava mandolins are selling as quickly as they can make them. There are people on waiting lists for them. But the increased cost of a Pava F-style would probably defeat the purpose right now. All it would be is an Ellis F5 with some superficial/cosmetic downgrades in things like binding.

Even the full-blown Ellis F5 Special is still in high demand as well. At least, around here it is. When I bought mine, the previous one they had in the shop had just been sold two days before, and this one had just come in. As I was purchasing it, another potential customer called the shop asking if they had one.

So in the case of Ellis, I think they are still doing a strong business which is only limited by their production rate. They don't seem to have any problems with moving their products. For that reason, I don't see any reason that they would go any further down the road in making their mandolins more 'affordable'. Granted, I am only seeing one tiny portion of their market. But if a place like Fiddler's Green can't even keep Pava or Ellis mandolins in stock because they get sold so quickly, it would seem that these mandolins are probably under-priced, not over-priced. To be honest, I'd pay twice as much for a Pava as they are currently going for. They are that good, in my mind.

* This is pure speculation on my part, but I'd bet that another reason for introducing the Pava line is to give Pava a 'foot in the door', so to speak, with her own brand. Let's face it: despite the recently refuted rumors of Tom's retirement, he's no spring chicken. One day he will retire. And the Ellis line will no longer exist. But with Pava being his protege and heir apparent, it makes perfect sense to start early in positioning her to take over the business with her own line of mandolins, and tying it to the Ellis brand reputation. Starting the Pava line at a low price point was necessary in order to get it off the ground. Over time, I would actually hope to see the price come up as the brand establishes itself, so that by the time Tom does retire, the Pava brand can stand on its own with other high-quality names. And not as a budget brand. As that day draws near, it would indeed make sense to launch a Pava F-style.

sgarrity

Oct-02-2013, 9:01am

Does anybody have the new Gilchrist price list? And is there one as suggested by earlier posts?

Jim Nollman

Oct-02-2013, 1:45pm

I'll agree with you that I have seen more Dudes/Gils/Nuggets and Monte's in the hands of well off middle aged amateurs than in full time bands... but I still don't think you can just say "I don't know any pros who own $10k mandolins" unless you aren't paying attention.

With all due respect, I think you are the one not paying attention. Read it again. Knowing somebody's music is not the same thing as knowing the person.

randygwatkins

Oct-02-2013, 2:52pm

J-45er

Oct-02-2013, 4:22pm

This is a very interesting thread. People who can pay $20K for an instrument that is used mainly for a hobby is a very, very narrow market. I suspect supply greatly exceeds demand here. I have heard of double bass players obtaining jobs in well-know symphonies because they had a $30K bass and were up against someone with a $5K bass and that $30K bass sounded that much better. Under those circumstances, there may be a rational, economic incentive to invest $30K to obtain that job. Does that ever happen with mandolins? Can it? If it does, please give an example.

f5loar

Oct-02-2013, 5:08pm

MK in NC

Oct-02-2013, 6:05pm

I personally would have a hard time naming a pro that plays a less than 10K mandolin. Most pros have more than one and often leave the good 10K plus stuff at home. Chris Hillman has a great'24 Loar but only records with it and goes on tour with a Red Diamond. I know many others like Chris.

Hillman played a Monteleone during his recent gig with Herb Pedersen in Carrboro. In the signing line after the show, I asked him if he still had his Loar. He said yes, but he doesn't take it out much.

As mentioned in another thread the day after that show, I figured mandolin enthusiasts would appreciate the fact that Hillman and Pedersen left their guitars on stage before and between sets, but Hillman kept the mandolin with him.

Jim Nollman

Oct-03-2013, 2:25pm

I think J-45er is onto something important about high-end mandolin economics and culture.

F5Loar, I'm curious what ballpark number you would assign to the number of pros you know (or should I say, know of) who own a $10k mandolin? And among that population, what ballpark number would you assign to those who own several $10k instruments?

I'm wondering if I'm being naive to even ask if the first number is less or more than 100 pros in the whole world? I suspect that the second number is not that much lower than the first number. Once you start getting the performing paychecks to justify one purchase, it gets less difficult to justify buying another professional level tool.

There's something else I've been wondering. How many $10k mandolins actually exist? I have a feeling that this number is quite a lot larger than the number owned by those who play them professionally. What percentage of all the $10k+ mandolins ever get heard in a concert. Am I naive to speculate that its about 1/10 of them?

I make no judgement about these numbers. How could I? If I was touring with a top band, I'd buy an instrument just below the top-tier, an Altman, a Mowry, maybe a LeStock or an Ellis. But not a Gil, unless I was playing lots of big concerts. As a quasi-mandolin pro, and a fulltime artist, I have never regarded these instruments as anything but tools to do a job. Sure, i understand the lure of being a collector. But for me, personally, if my wallet grew and grew, it would never lead me to many mandolins. Maybe irises.

I feel this market in high end stringed instruments (not just mandos) has more in common with the market for Mercedes sports cars, than with the usual market in professional tool. It's populated mostly by men with lots of discretionary income, and both a hungering and an easy capability to own the most prestigious brands of instruments used to make a music they adore. We all indulge a more humble version of same hunger about something or other.

pefjr

Oct-03-2013, 4:48pm

Do you know why so many different mandolins are made? It has to be because we are so different. An old wholesale car salesman told me once, "There is a seat for every @ss made." He meant that for every car made, there is a buyer. I think it's the same with mandolins. Ain't it nice that we don't have to marry one. We can just go steady for awhile.

f5loar

Oct-03-2013, 5:03pm

mandroid

Oct-03-2013, 5:34pm

a good accountant can arrange a depreciation allowance on a tool of doing your trade, as a Pro Musician,
I'd Assume , though the actual value may be rising. as claimed with your insurance company .. .

Charlieshafer

Oct-03-2013, 5:49pm

My basic feeling is that worrying about what the top pros play is less important when it reflects pricing. My favorite player, Andy Statman, plays a Mowry, and before that his pretty recognizable Gibson A3 (I think it was an A3). I can get an A3 for 2k or so, and sound just like Andy! (In my dreams.) I'm with Jim Nollman in that the real market for the 10-20k instruments are the guys sitting in traffic on I-95 in their Porsche Cayenne heading to the office. That car looks great going 4 mph. My pickup with 320k miles keeps right up, though. Most are trophy instruments, and there's nothing wrong with that, as the person who buys one, regardless of their ability, appreciates the workmanship and sound as much as any pro; they just don't play like one. No biggie there. It's just that when the dollars get squeezed a little, the trophy instruments probably get downsized before the mortgage and the car payment.

Dale Ludewig

Oct-03-2013, 6:17pm

I think there's another point that's not been discussed here. What the pro player plays in public, on stage, and such, is not necessarily the same instrument he/she uses to record in the studio. I know this is a fact. Endorsements from companies are financial incentives for the performers to be seen playing this or that instrument, or strings, or picks. Also, the "public" thinks a particular style of mandolin is what they want to see their performer playing. What actually goes on behind closed doors can be different from common perception.

re simmers

Oct-03-2013, 6:35pm

A college professor once said, "why are there so many different types of cars......why aren't we all still driving black Model T's? MARKETING! Intentional or unintentional, it is marketing." Same with mandolins? Maybe.

I respectfully disagree with the premise that pros and guys in Porches are the typical buyers of the $10-20K mandolins. Bluegrasser friends of mine are conservative with their money and don't have expensive tastes for other hobbies, cars, or the need to have the best house they can afford. And they don't make a lot of money. They use what they've got to buy a Dude, a Gil, Rich & Taylor Banjo #1, or a Brazilian Clarence White Martin. They might make enough money to buy strings and gas, about like me. Maybe my friends and I are not typical of the rest of the cafe.

However, if the guys in Porches really do have the better instruments, I will stand in the Gettysburg lot at the next festival and look for those cars. Maybe I'll get to play something I've never played before.

Bob

Mike Bunting

Oct-03-2013, 6:48pm

Jim Nollman

Oct-03-2013, 6:54pm

Bluegrasser friends of mine are conservative with their money and don't have expensive tastes for other hobbies, cars, or the need to have the best house they can afford. And they don't make a lot of money. They use what they've got to buy a Dude, a Gil, Rich & Taylor Banjo #1, or a Brazilian Clarence White Martin.
Bob

I don't know any working people like you describe. They're not pros. They play mandolin with friends a few times a week. They're not rich. They most likely have wives and kids. They probably haven't paid off their mortgage, or they pay rent with no equity. They may carry credit card debt. They probably go to work every day and bring home, what? Plus or minus $80k year? Does that describe it?

And yet you say there are lots of these guys who will drop $20k+, (a quarter of their yearly income) on a Gil? You gotta be making that up.

Charlieshafer

Oct-03-2013, 6:57pm

Ooops, Mike, you're right, it's a Kimble. And Bob, it's just a metaphor for guys who buy really nice things that they really don;t need. They may want 'em, and really enjoy them, but need them???

Bernie Daniel

Oct-03-2013, 7:12pm

I have no special knowledge of this, so take it for what it is worth, but does Steffey play the exact same instrument that I could buy right off of the wall? The reason I ask is because I know for a fact that in arena's other than music, sometimes the signature model used by the celebrity is not the same as the for sale item.

No one has ventured an opinion on your question -- I think it is a valid thing to ask. My guess is however Steffey plays an off-the-shelf Northfield -- but just maybe the one he has is the best on-the-self one they have built so far. LOL.

Like the motors in stock cars in the 50's and 60's they had to be "stock" -- and they were -- but they also just happened to have all of the very best parts that came off the assembly line in the same motor -- imagine that. :)

Bernie Daniel

Oct-03-2013, 7:14pm

Maybe the world is running short of old white guys. What a calamity.

You will regret that statement in time Mr. Smarty pants......

Barry Canada

Oct-03-2013, 7:36pm

This seems to be developing into an unpleasant lashing out debate between who deserves and who can afford a mandolin with a high price tag attached to it. Even if you choose to buy your let's say $10000 instrument please consider and reflect on the following:
Playing 10 hours per week for 50 weeks (2 weeks holiday!), for 10 years would be 5000 hours.
$10000 for 500 hours comes to a cost of $2 per hour! A $5000 instrument for the same time is $1 per hour. Nice cheap, healthy, creative, fun, no drugs no burning fuel pollutants, making other people happy, supporting luthiers who spend hundreds of hours refining their trade and so on.......come on mandolin cafe members....

mtucker

Oct-03-2013, 7:43pm

Like the motors in stock cars in the 50's and 60's they had to be "stock" -- and they were -- but they also just happened to have all of the very best parts that came off the assembly line in the same motor -- imagine that. :)
Stock cars is a general term and somewhat of an oversimplification since there were sportsman, modified and grand national cars in US stock car racing during these times...not withstanding midgets, 3/4 midgets and sprint cars...each operated under certain parameters. Sportsman ran early body, primarily late 30's body american cars with modern V8 motors, like 283 cubed chevy's...modified cars were chopped and channeled cars of the same ilk but body mods that made them almost not distinguishable, but with big block motors, 427 ci's were very popular but they were very scary, primarily run on non sanctioned tracks because of safety, remember NASCAR was sanctioned and has always had rules about safety that have guided them ...Grand National cars were daytona cars and the big track cars...think Darlington etc.. those that were late 50's and 60's cars with big motors like 427, 426 etc. Stock Cars was a generic way of referring to all of them.. ;) The manufacturers have always made hot motors and models to keep up with american racing, so in a sense Bernie, you're not incorrect in your summary...but those early model cars really flew when you lightened them by chopping the fenders and dropping 283's in them, replacing the old flathead. Will Kimble would defend flathead power, because I think he knows how to get them to work and get real horses out of them! ...and I think he is correct, but we didn't know as much then...Okay, enough of the history lesson and back to your regularly scheduled programing :cool:

Bradley

Oct-03-2013, 8:12pm

Wow the many things we can spend our money on. I had a friend once say "you spent $5k on that little guitar", and I said "yes and
you spend $10 a day on those smokes"..... Hope I put it into perspective for him.

Barry Canada

Oct-03-2013, 8:26pm

Nice Bradley...
Thanks..

re simmers

Oct-03-2013, 8:28pm

Jim
I'm not making that up at all. I know at least 40 people who have spent more than 20% of their yrly income on an instrument. They play in part time bands and/or jam a couple times a week, play at church, etc.

Mr. Sizemore is definitely a pro, but he told me he never made his living playing bluegrass. Somehow he kept trading until he had 4 Loars when I took a lesson. I think he once had 5 at one time.

The more I think about it, the more I think it's not unusual for folks who just really like a nice instrument....not necessarily for the investment, and not necessarily because they are rich.

Who makes enough playing bluegrass to pay for a Loar.....Roberts, Bibey, McCoury, McLaughlin. None of our business what they paid, but I can assume it was more than they earn in a year.

There is a cellist in a local symphony who paid $20K for a cello and $4K for the bow. They are union members. She works a regular job, but her instrument was easily more than 20% of her income.

Speaking of stock cars; ever talk to someone who does that for a hobby? There is an expensive hobby.

Charlie, I was half joking. You are right; some high priced collectable instruments are owned by wealthier people.

What's the question: Oh yeah! Prices are dropping very slowly, overall on high priced mandolins....in my humble opinion. But I may be wrong.

Bob

greg_tsam

Oct-03-2013, 9:01pm

Maybe the world is running short of old white guys. What a calamity.

Don't worry. The world is making more and more every day.

pefjr

Oct-03-2013, 9:02pm

Mandolins are peanuts compared to what the world's top Violinist pays for a Violin....not to mention a bow. Better hang on those mint and rare Mandos, there is lots of room for appreciation when comparing.

Russ Jordan

Oct-03-2013, 9:14pm

I personally would have a hard time naming a pro that plays a less than 10K mandolin. .
Her's a few that come to mind who play less than $10k mandolins:

John Maberry--F5G
Shawn Lane--Dearstone
Adam Steffey--Northfield
Jody Stecher-Stan Miller
Jesse Brock-Sam Bush
Bryan McDowell--MF5
Spencer Strickland--Anderson
Rhonda Vincent--Weber, Smith Creek
Kym Warner-MT2
Aaron Ramsey--Northfield
Emory Lester--Northfield
Jenny Lynn Gardner--Daley?
Paul Williams--Sam Bush
Darren Nicholson--F5g, Metcalf

almeriastrings

Oct-03-2013, 9:15pm

With several years of economic difficulties, it is not surprising that some disposable income has been lost to the musical instrument market and that some prices have been squeezed. That's really only an issue if you need to sell. Less buyers... those that are out there are more bargain-conscious and looking for a good price. These things do go in cycles though, and while it has been a buyer's market for some time, that is not likely to last forever. There are new generations of people interested in these things coming along. Mr Thile and Ms. Hull are certainly helping out in that regard, as are many others. If 'disposable' income increases again, then prices on instruments will probably also benefit.

Obviously, there are also a lot more very nice instruments around today than there were some years ago. Buyers have more choices.

As to all this stuff about who (in effect) "deserves" $10K+ mandolins - I would respond to that by saying that anyone who appreciates them does. Simple as that. No-one (much) takes issue with people buying $25-30K+ cars, and those devalue faster than a lead weight heading down a mine-shaft....... nice instruments are also much less of a vice than some stuff folks spend their money on. Having a good instrument can be a source of great pleasure, it encourages people to acquire new skills, it's healthy, and frankly, not at all a bad investment compared to many other things. You can't make music and be creative with money in the bank.

Charlieshafer

Oct-03-2013, 10:52pm

money in the bank.

Bank? You have money in the bank. I remember a conversation/bull session when it started going down the hill of first walking to school, then uphill both ways, then in the snow, then barefoot. My lead carpenter immediately turned around and said, "feet? You had feet?" It sort of ended the one-upsmanship. Yeah, I know, a pointless story...

Oh, and add Sierra Hull to the affordable mandolin list, along with the one sister from Shel.

sgarrity

Oct-03-2013, 11:11pm

Any word on the current Gil prices?

f5loar

Oct-04-2013, 12:03am

Bank? You have money in the bank. I remember a conversation/bull session when it started going down the hill of first walking to school, then uphill both ways, then in the snow, then barefoot. My lead carpenter immediately turned around and said, "feet? You had feet?" It sort of ended the one-upsmanship. Yeah, I know, a pointless story...

Oh, and add Sierra Hull to the affordable mandolin list, along with the one sister from Shel.
Is she not still playing a newer Gibson MM? I thought they run around $12K to 15K.

randygwatkins

Oct-04-2013, 12:23am

As to all this stuff about who (in effect) "deserves" $10K+ mandolins - I would respond to that by saying that anyone who appreciates them does. Simple as that. No-one (much) takes issue with people buying $25-30K+ cars, and those devalue faster than a lead weight heading down a mine-shaft....... nice instruments are also much less of a vice than some stuff folks spend their money on.

Interesting comparison, my last used car cost 9 times what my recent mandolin did! :disbelief:

Pete Jenner

Oct-04-2013, 2:08am

Any word on the current Gil prices?

Shaun, why don't you email Steve and ask him? His email address is publicly available here (http://gilchristmandolins.com/).

This is a very informative thread BTW.

grassrootphilosopher

Oct-04-2013, 4:49am

As I posted in a new thread this morning, concerning my visit to Carters in Nashville, out of all the high-dollar mandolins there I chose to buy almost the cheapest one in the shop, even though financially I could have bought (almost) any of them. I did that for two reasons...

One: I'm not a good enough player to NEED a $20K mandolin, I play for fun with friends and probably can't appreciate the 1 or 2% differences at those levels.

Two: the A-model I bought is the one that "spoke" to me the most, even A/B'ing it against many of the others, including the same maker's 2 F-models hanging on the wall. Time after time after comparisons I liked the same one better.

Out the door for about $4000 with the one I preferred over the others? A no-brainer!

P.S. my second choice was the Henderson A!

But you bought yourself a Duff A-5... It gets any job done very, very nicely. I just played my Duff F-5 back to back with a 1923 F-5 and I was impressed as to how good my mandolin sounded. Yet that other F-5 had something special going on (not the booming bass that many people like but the Monroe-zzing and the nice evennes across the strings. It was very toneful).

If you look at the prices you´ll find out that they are not necessarily dropping, they are just levelling.

Last time I looked a new Gil was 20.500,- USD. Thats about 4 k less than what a used one would have fetched in 2005. I do see signifficant price differences between a Monte F-5 and a Grand Artist etc. While the used Grand Artist is offered for about 24 k his (used) F-5s have asking prices of about 17 k (that´s a nice gain from when they were purchased in the late 70ies but may still be a fair asking price). When you look at other builders the prices are all over the place. There are many factors for an asking price. One is that there are many builders that build a very high quality mandolin. Some builders are constantly talked about, others not so much...

Charlieshafer

Oct-04-2013, 4:52am

Is she not still playing a newer Gibson MM? I thought they run around $12K to 15K.

She changed from Weber? Or is that just the OM? I guess it shows that, while I may be in the minority, I just don't pay attention to what anyone plays. Even if I play Thile's Loar, I'm still sounding lame compared to those guys.

RustyPickup

Oct-04-2013, 4:56am

I count 50 pros that own and/or use a prewar Gibson F5 today. That's easy to figure. To count how many have that range from say $10K to $30K which would cover the Dudes, Gils, Nuggets, etc. would be a lot harder as there is no actual list of that but I would estimate another 50 in that group. So there is your 100 pros out there with high end mandos. That's a long shot from the 1000's that have been made in the past 25 years. In regards of prices dropping, a high end Gibson just sold yesterday at the asking price which I recall was the same price it was in 2006.

And that includes some 30 or 40 pros who play Loar F5s, right? To add to that list you started in a thread several years ago:

Apollon Dave (of course)
Artis Bob
Baldassari Butch (unsigned)
Berline Byron
Bibey Alan
Blake Norman +/or Nancy
Frank Ray
Gill Vince
Grisman David (2?)
Guggino Mike
Hannigan Anthony
Hillman Chris
Johnson Gene
Jones John Paul
Lambert Pee Wee
Lawson Doyle
Marshall Mike
McCoury Ronnie
McLaughlin David
Mindte Tom
Monroe Bill (of course)
Orchard Jimmy
Osborne Bobby
Reischman John
Reno Ronnie (4?)
Roberts Caleb
Roberts Danny
Rozum Tom
Sizemore Herschel (3?)
Skaggs Ricky
Sledge Larry
Smith Steve
Thile Chris
Thomason Ron
Val Joe
Wakefield Frank
Waller Butch
West Harry
Williamson Tony
Winn George

(This list includes some legacies, obviously. And no doubt is not exhaustive, nor error-free ... and there has likely been some changing of hands ...).

Mandobar

Oct-04-2013, 6:14am

She changed from Weber? Or is that just the OM? I guess it shows that, while I may be in the minority, I just don't pay attention to what anyone plays. Even if I play Thile's Loar, I'm still sounding lame compared to those guys.

I believe these were all endorsee instruments.

When selecting a mandolin you need to make the choice yourself, because whether you play the same model mandolin as such and such a pro, you are only going to sound like yourself.

Spend a lot of time playing your mandolin and you will find that the tuners, the tailpiece, and the bridge, along with how the neck feels, and how the mandolin actually fits your playing style become the most important thing to you. Along with the strap.

Timmando

Oct-04-2013, 7:42am

For the first time since I took up mando, I had the chance to play at least 15 different ones at IBMA, F's and A's. With regard to the OP I think that, yes, prices are coming down on the high end ones. It is inevitable (when you can play a $1000 mando, made somewhere other than the US, that sounds and looks almost as good) prices will come down. For example, new Randy Wood mandos were going for a discount that day. When a US builder sees their mandos sitting on their shelves, and all the newbies are buying off the Asian shelves, that will drive their price down. If you are a player there is a relatively cheap mandolin that will do the job. If you are a collector, then other collectors will determine the market price of your next investment. For those in between, prices may have to come down. I honestly couldn't hear a distinct difference (worth the money) in some of the expensive mandos (4k+) made in the US from the cheaper ones (1 to 3K) made elsewhere. I'm sure it had to do with my limited experience as well as old strings on some of them though. I would think that a builder or dealer would have brand new strings on every mando they are trying to sell at an event like IBMA, but that was not the case. I wonder what the business practice is for some of the big dealers? They have salesmen sitting around on a stool, doing basically nothing, while expensive instruments, with old strings, hang on the wall for sale. Don't the salesmen know how to change strings on a mando? If I was the owner, those guys would be busy changing strings, putting on some of the long-lasting strings. And if I was a salesman, working on commission, I would be changing strings! I might have made a different buying decision if I could have heard the difference between a cheaper A-style mando and an expensive one, without having to change the strings myself. BTW, the mando I bought had brand new J74's on it. I went there ready to spend up to 5K for an A-style, but I ended up leaving with most of that in my pocket along with a real nice KM950.

Wolfboy

Oct-04-2013, 8:03am

I personally would have a hard time naming a pro that plays a less than 10K mandolin.

In the bluegrass world, where the F-5 is king, maybe...but there are plenty of pros in Irish trad, for example, who play teens/twenties Gibson oval-hole A's (as do I), and those can typically be had for less than 2K. Just a gentle reminder that the F-5 sound isn't necessarily the mandolin sound that all of us are looking for for what we do, and there are lots of pro-level non-F-5 mandolins out there that are quite affordable, if that's the sound you're looking for.

Nick Gellie

Oct-04-2013, 8:24am

In the bluegrass world, where the F-5 is king, maybe...but there are plenty of pros in Irish trad, for example, who play teens/twenties Gibson oval-hole A's (as do I), and those can typically be had for less than 2K. Just a gentle reminder that the F-5 sound isn't necessarily the mandolin sound that all of us are looking for for what we do, and there are lots of pro-level non-F-5 mandolins out there that are quite affordable, if that's the sound you're looking for.

Robin, you have hit the nail on the head perfectly. I would go one step further to say that an A-5 in the 1,000-2,000$ range can do the job of an F-5 perfectly, and be used in a range of genres, including ITM. The 1920s Gibson As don't quite have the sound of an A-5 for producing the chop chords though.

Tobin

Oct-04-2013, 9:19am

I would think that a builder or dealer would have brand new strings on every mando they are trying to sell at an event like IBMA, but that was not the case. I wonder what the business practice is for some of the big dealers? They have salesmen sitting around on a stool, doing basically nothing, while expensive instruments, with old strings, hang on the wall for sale. Don't the salesmen know how to change strings on a mando? If I was the owner, those guys would be busy changing strings, putting on some of the long-lasting strings. And if I was a salesman, working on commission, I would be changing strings! I might have made a different buying decision if I could have heard the difference between a cheaper A-style mando and an expensive one, without having to change the strings myself. BTW, the mando I bought had brand new J74's on it. I went there ready to spend up to 5K for an A-style, but I ended up leaving with most of that in my pocket along with a real nice KM950.

Yours seems to be a common complaint, but I rather tend to think that vendors intentionally leave the strings with some play-in for a reason. I know I'm not alone in this, but I hate the sound of new strings. They do not give me a good example of the sound I can get out of that mandolin. Every time I change strings, I cringe at the new, metallicy, bright sound of them. They only start to sound good (goog?) after several days or a week of solid playing.

If I were trying to sell a mandolin in the $10K+ price range, to players who know what a good mandolin should sound like and are willing to pay for it, I wouldn't showcase my mandolin with new strings either. Granted, there's a fine line between strings that have gotten past that new sound and strings that are starting to go dead. Experienced players (potential buyers) with a well-trained ear will know the difference and appreciate the strings being at just the "right" level of play-in.

William Smith

Oct-04-2013, 9:30am

Personally I don't agree with the whole " the rich guy" thing when it comes to owning a 10-20+G mando, or any instrument, I'm not saying they don't have em, but I have some mandolins in that price range, I'm no pro, just a picker that has played way too many bars/ other venues. I'm far from rich in money. my house is a small ranch style, drive old beat up cars, when I work I'm a cook. I know others like me that have nice instruments. If I want something I save up and get it or I swap to get em. Anything is worth what people Will pay for it and if you want something bad enough you'll find a way to get it. So some instruments sit until the right buyer comes along.

MK in NC

Oct-04-2013, 10:46am

Jenny Lynn Gardner--Daley?

Yes, at least last weekend. She and Della Mae were backing up Jim Lauderdale for a set at IBMA. When they left the stage, I asked her what she was playing. She said it was a Daley.

pefjr

Oct-04-2013, 11:45am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J-YY9u8gCywTwo old pros and their Loars sounding pretty damn good. Is the the Loars or the Pros? Guitar and Guitar player ain't bad either.

Jim Nollman

Oct-04-2013, 12:39pm

I slept on my comment, yesterday, about some family guy spending 1/4 of his yearly income on a mandolin. Truth is, where I live, on an island in Puget Sound, lots of guys spend at least that much on fishing boats and salmon gear. I'd have to say that playing mandolin and fishing for salmon are two of the most fun things to do in the world.

As far as all the pros who could play an expensive $10k+ mandolin — but don't — that seems easy to explain. Let's be honest, the best sounding mandolins have never been the exclusive domain of the pedigree brands.

Anyone who buys a mandolin as a performing tool, is going to want to personalize it for his own playing style. Some few may choose a Loar to play onstage, but few of those folks are going to get out the chisels to customize it, because it could easily cut the resale value in half. Many touring pros are going choose a stage instrument that won't include a financial hit for customizing. Maybe radius the fingerboard, scoop the florida, install jumbo frets.

AlanN

Oct-04-2013, 12:49pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J-YY9u8gCywTwo old pros and their Loars sounding pretty damn good. Is the the Loars or the Pros? Guitar and Guitar player ain't bad either.

Marvy. 3 pros, 2 loars and a partridge in a pear tree...

dang

Oct-19-2013, 6:26am

I think this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/70185) is the mandolin from the OP back in the classifieds, and now on consignment....

wsugai

Oct-19-2013, 10:29am

The biggest problem with much of this conjecture about used mandolins is that they seem to be based on asking prices. Except for eBay (iffy), we rearely get to see what the deal actually closes at, if it closes at all. It would be a great service to inquiring minds if MC mandated that closing prices must be disclosed as a requirement of using the classifieds. Don't know how you'd enforce it, but if a seller posted a false closing price, at least one other party would know he's lying.

Tom Sanderson

Oct-19-2013, 12:35pm

[l. It would be a great service to inquiring minds if MC mandated that closing prices must be disclosed as a requirement of using the classifieds. Don't know how you'd enforce it, but if a seller posted a false closing price, at least one other party would know he's lying.[/QUOTE]
That is ridiculous.The details of a private transaction between 2 party's are exactly that (private).

roysboy

Oct-20-2013, 1:32am

With regards to what the 'pros' are playing and what they are paying for those instruments, I don't think I'd be going out on a limb in saying that many of those pros mentioned in the thread ( above ) generate income from other sources which , in many cases are likely not music related . I know quite a few 'professional musicians " who label themselves as such because they derive SOME income from playing music . Most of them also work 'day jobs' in unrelated fields to keep the wolf from the door and support families etc and generate MUCH more income outside of their 'pro ' careers. The names of the above- listed pros that most of us are likely familiar with are often teaching , building and/or repairing , selling , writing about or otherwise involved in music ...yes. But most of the guys ( and ladies ) I know are employed outside the biz which allows them to purchase the high end stuff . Most could never do it on a working musician's wage alone .

jmagill

Oct-20-2013, 6:11am

Just wanted to point out that the mandolin Tom Rozum (center) is playing in the video doesn't look like a Loar. Compare its abbreviated pickguard to the one on John Reischman's (right) famous Loar. Now, back to the thread.

Markelberry

Oct-20-2013, 7:25am

Nick Triesch

Oct-20-2013, 1:11pm

I just saw Sierra Hull at Summer grass in San Diego in August. She played her Weber Fern for all shows. At her Q and A she said her Gibson was damaged on a flight and was being repaired. She plays and records with both instruments.

JeffD

Oct-20-2013, 1:27pm

I slept on my comment, yesterday, about some family guy spending 1/4 of his yearly income on a mandolin. Truth is, where I live, on an island in Puget Sound, lots of guys spend at least that much on fishing boats and salmon gear. I'd have to say that playing mandolin and fishing for salmon are two of the most fun things to do in the world. .

True. A good example.

Lets be more accurate however. Folks are not literally spending a quarter of their yearly income. They are spending an amount perhaps equal to a quarter of their yearly income.

What's the diff? Well they are likely saving up for it over many years, or selling other items of value accumulated over many years or going into debt and will pay for it over many years. I don't think anyone is going without income for three months in order to buy a mandolin, or salmon gear.

I am not denying these are amounts of money that matter. Just not wanting to get all dramatic over it. Many of us have purchased many things that cost an amount equal to a significant percentage of our yearly income, houses, cars, furnaces, air conditions, other major appliances, a new roof, boats, pianos, guitars and mandolins, but almost none of us went hungry for even a day doing it.

JeffD

Oct-20-2013, 1:35pm

The true cost of a mandolin (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/entry.php?541-How-much-should-I-spend-on-a-mandolin)is much higher anyway.

Mike Bunting

Oct-20-2013, 1:49pm

It seems to me its got to the point with the quality of building out there today I can get get a 20000 dollar mando for 3 to 5 grand and you gotta work hard to get it togather but its do able. akes me happy the quality has gotten so good!
You are right. It seems to me that we are in the golden age of quality instruments. We've got Dudes, Gils, Heidens, Duffs, Stanleys, Collings, Mowrys, Brocks, Hilburns and Brentrups (the ones I have heard) etc., etc. Even the low end instruments have improved considerably.

grassrootphilosopher

Oct-20-2013, 1:58pm

The true cost of a mandolin (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/entry.php?541-How-much-should-I-spend-on-a-mandolin)is much higher anyway.

That´s a neat blog post.

And consider the cost of building the instrument. When you take builders like Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, Kemnitzer etc., think about the amount of hours that go into the instrument.

I saw and played an Anderson F-5 the other week. While it was a nice instrument and didn´t cost really serious money, I heard its owner say that the fit and finish was not up to what my "good" mandolin looks like. While this statement is true it has to be taken into consideration that my mandolin cost a little bit more than his. So the basic statement is true that you get what you pay for. The Anderson F-5 is a good instrument anyhow.

ides1056

Dec-22-2013, 11:19am

On the plus side, if you want a mandolin built now, the wait is not interminable.
As for the time involved in building the fine ones, I don't think those guys are getting paid enough.

JeffD

Dec-22-2013, 11:27am

Those who feel their luthier is not getting paid enough are welcome, I am sure, to give a huge Christmas bonus in their final payment upon receiving the instrument.

JFDilmando

Dec-22-2013, 11:29am

Btw. The mandolin that Tom Rozum was playing there in the clip is indeed a Loar. Just a custom pick guard to go with the finger board he had done.... The originals are still with the mandolin

lukmanohnz

Dec-22-2013, 12:57pm

That video with Rozum and Reischman is lovely - thank you so much for posting it!!

yankees1

Dec-22-2013, 1:01pm

On the plus side, if you want a mandolin built now, the wait is not interminable.
As for the time involved in building the fine ones, I don't think those guys are getting paid enough. There are advantages in building instruments at your home. You can work when you want and you don't have a boss standing over you ! I imagine that the top tier builders are doing quite well financially . I taught school for 34 years and many say that we didn't get paid enough but I wouldn't have changed my profession for any other job as I loved what I was doing. I simply adjusted my lifestyle to my income. I imagine that most builders love their job also.

DarrellJennings

Dec-29-2013, 3:19pm

I bought a 1987 Nugget A model for around $11K last year (traded a 1949 L5, a Martin HD28 Historic, and some cash... which equated to about the asking price). It was worth every penny. That said, I've played two nugget F models that I wouldn't trade even for it. Also played two Loars that I'd have traded the Nugget for plus a few thousand... but they were way above $150K, so their asking price was WAY out of line with the slight improvement in sound over the Nugget A. I guess it depends on how much you like a particular instrument, what it sounds like, what it'll cost to buy it, and how that price maps into your disposable income. I might have been willing to go $12K on my Nugget. I might have been willing to go $17K on one of the Loar F5's.... but not more than that if all I was doing was going on what they sounded and played like rather than what I thought the resale might be.