Are truss rods always necessary?

[Loretta Callahan]

I'm posting this in the general forum instead of the builders section because I'd like the opinions of both players and luthiers.

My two favorite mandolins right now are my 1923 Gibson Jr Paddlehead and my Big Muddy M-4. Neither of them have truss rods. I'm selling my newer Jethro Burns Washburn F5 with a truss rod because I don't play bluegrass and the F5 barks more than she sings. Plus, I'm self-conscious playing a F5 with Irish trad folks.

Am I going to regret not having a truss rod in the long run? Right now, both mandolins play like butter and sound wonderful. The intonation on the Gibson is a tad better than the Muddy and she's louder, but I love playing them both ... for different reasons. The Muddy sings to me and the Gibson sings to the group.

The reason I bring this up is that several folks over at the Session Discussion group are adamant about mandolins having truss rods: always. My experience is that the cafe has a wealth of knowledge about mandolins like nowhere else.

Thanks in advance, as always.

[mandroid]

I have a 22 A, no TR it seems fine. thats 1922 . my [Late]Mother's year of Birth.
I'm 65, how long will you last ?

[Beanzy]

My inexpert impression is that mandolin necks can be slimmer with a truss-rod than without.
But as I prefer a V profile with my thumb resting on the upper slope/edge it becomes less relevant from my point of view, as there's more wood in the centre anyway and I've loads of room to spare in the gap between thumb and index finger.
A well made mandolin by a good luthier should be made to the required loading which means you shouldn't worry.
However some people love a slim rounded profile (even if they may like a wide fretboard) and I can see the truss-rod really coming into it's own there to take the strain and allow less cross-section of wood.

[afhusband]

Howard Morris (Morris mandolins) does not use truss rods in any of his builds, that I'm aware of. I read somewhere that he feels no need for them, & of course it keeps costs down. I own #192, built in 2010, & I absolutely love it! Perfect neck, & although a fairly recent build I couldn't imagine any change.

[Jim]

I have 2 20s regals a 30s regal and a 42 Stradolin with no truss rods and the necks are still straight. The regal necks are pretty short scale and the strad is a thick neck but feels and plays great. I kind of like the feel of a thicker neck.

[fatt-dad]

there are mandolins with truss rods and there are mandolins with adjustible truss rods. Are you just talking about the latter? The three mandolins that I play all the time do not have adjustible truss rods. I'll bet you there's something to provide bending resistance though. I know that Dave Cohen has something running down the neck (carbon fiber?). Not sure about my 1920 A3 or my 1984 Flatiron 1N, but they play great!

Of the mandolins that I've owned with adjustible truss rods, I've never adjusted any of them. I have tweeked the neck on my guitars though. . .

f-d

[OldSausage]

Most modern mandolins that "don't have a truss rod" have a carbon fibre, or sometimes steel, reinforcement bar. If done correctly, that should mean the neck is not going to have any neck problems. The Big Muddy has a steel rod, I believe, so it's unlikely to go twisting off anywhere anytime soon.

The Gibson neck is most likely reinforced with strips of hardwood placed inside it to keep it straight. A lot of people have old Gibsons with no truss rod that are just fine, although they certainly can and do bend a bit in time - but it's the luck of the draw whether yours will or not. The truss rod wouldn't really save you if that happened anyway - its purpose is to let you fine tune the neck relief, not fix a warp or serious bend. If it's been around 90 years and is still straight now, chances are good it will stay that way for a few more years. It may have visited a luthier at some point in its career and had some work done already, of course.

I may be wrong because I'm no expert on old Gibsons, but I thought the truss rod was introduced earlier than 1923? I'm sure someone else here knows the answer to that one.

My personal opinion is that truss rods are generally somewhat overrated.

[Alex Orr]

I have an early Brentrup F5 (Hans' third mandolin) and it was made using a combination of a steel bar, and a neck reinforced with a strip of ebony. Neck is a bit thicker than the Kentucky I was playing before, with a moderate V, but not so thick as to seem cumbersome. That said, I can easily palm a basketball, so I have slightly large hands. I've played older Gibson's as well as The Loars that seem to have just as thick a neck. Hans built my mando in 1999, and the two luthiers I've brought it to for minor work both said the neck looks fine and that even if there was an adjustable truss rod on the thing, there's no adjustments they'd make. My guess is that it's better than not to have one, but a really good builder can also probably make a great mandolin without one. However, a cheaper factory made pac-rim (like a new Washburn) is likely to greatly need one.

[Justus True Waldron]

I think that all depends. Of course there are the early Gibsons that were sans-truss rod, and I've played a few of them that still play quite well. I will say though that the necks on those are quite thicker than I'd like, and they aren't meant for the heavy strings I use for bluegrass.

Another thing to think about is that adding weight inside a mandolin actually does change the sound to a certain degree. Mandolins with little to nothing in the neck (carbon fiber strip like some builders do, or solid wood like the old Gibby's) IMO usually have a nice open sound with quick response right off the bat. However, as a bluegrasser that plays F and A-5 style instruments, usually with heavier strings in loud environments (not to mention in all sorts of differing weather/temperature/humidty), I would never buy a mandolin without a truss rod. I really haven't messed with mine much at all in the two years I've owned it, but when I got it and set it up I decided I liked the feel of a little more relief in the neck. I was able to make that change in a matter of minutes. If I ever want to go back the other way, I can do that in minutes too. If you'll notice most pro bluegrass players all have their own preferences on setup, and it's great to be able to do that without having to have a luthier actually change neck angle/shape/what have you.

I've also seen a fair amount of instruments without truss rods, or with non-adjustable rods like the Pheonix etc, come through Marty's shop with legitimate neck problems. I think under the right circumstances, for the right use mandolins without truss rods can be great, and sound great, but for me and what I do I just wouldn't buy one.

[OldSausage]

I think under the right circumstances, for the right use mandolins without truss rods can be great, and sound great, but for me and what I do I just wouldn't buy one.

But why not - just because you wouldn't be able to change the neck relief? But if the neck relief was already how you wanted it, how about then?

[John Kelly]

On my own mandolins I use a reinforcing rod, non-adjustable. The last two, numbers 21 and 22, have carbon fibre rather than the 5mm square mild steel I used up till then. The oldest is now about 9 years old and I have never had any problems with the necks distorting or twisting in any way so far.
I have a Harmony guitar from the 1930s which was my father's instrument when he was a young boy and I have now and still play. The neck is quite club-like compared to a modern neck and there is no truss rod, yet this neck is as straight now as it ever was - that's about 83 years it has been around and not always strung to tension and for a long time not even played.

[fatt-dad]

j74s are appropriate for old pre-truss-rod a or f style mandolins.

f-d

[foldedpath]

I like having an adjustable truss rod in any instrument I buy new. Sometimes it takes a while for the wood components to settle down, and forget they're a tree, as they say. I don't care that much if I'm buying a 10 or 20 year old instrument in good used condition, where the action and neck relief is already fine. I figure by that time, it's settled in and it's not going to move much, if at all.

That's been my experience with new and used instruments over the years, anyway. I adjusted the truss rod on my Lebeda mandolin a few times in the first few years after buying it new... just tiny 1/4 turn tweaks to get the relief exactly where it needed to be. I think it's been about two years since the last time, and it probably won't be touched again unless I move to some drastically different climate.

I can see where there is an argument that a luthier can build a stronger/lighter/more resonant (whatever) neck without the truss rod channel. On the other hand, since I'm comfortable doing my own setup work, I do like having options, instead of just trusting that it's going to leave the workshop in ideal relief and stay that way forever. Once it's a few years old though, I don't care as long as it's playable.

[Tim2723]

There's an old engineer's saying that anything made to be adjustable will require constant adjustment. One thing I love about my Ovations is that the neck cannot move no matter what I do to it.

[Justus True Waldron]

But why not - just because you wouldn't be able to change the neck relief? But if the neck relief was already how you wanted it, how about then?

Well what if I change my mind about how I like it? Or more importantly how can it be guaranteed that it will always stay exactly like it was when new? I understand that today people use carbon fiber, etc to try and ensure that, but still, as long as there is wood involved I think the potential is there for change. I personally have played my mandolin everywhere from 100+ degrees and humid Tennessee in the summer, to key west fl, to the fridged winters of NY by the adirondacks (not to mention bone dry houses with wood stoves), and I'm not even a touring pro who might go from one extreme to the other very quickly.

I may not have to mess with the truss rod hardly at all anymore, but over the first few months I had to make a number of small changes as it got settled in. If I was not able to do that, I would not still be playing it as it would not be playing right. Another case is the switch I made from j74s to j75s... I did have to tweak my setup slightly after making that change. If I couldn't make that adjustment, I would have given up and found another instrument that allowed me to do that. Again, this is my opinion, and I'm not even saying that having a truss rod is the most important aspect of an instrument. For me though, lack of an adjustable neck on a new bluegrass instrument is pretty much a deal breaker.

Like Folderpath however I would be less hesitant about an old instrument sans-truss rod. I can see myself owning an old Gibson A at some point, and in that case it wouldn't be a major concern of mine. However, I wouldn't be using it as a workhorse or for travel either. Just my opinion...

[stevedenver]

FWIW
my Rigel A deluxe does not appear to have a truss rod, but a maple ebony sandwich lamination, and the neck is ever so slightly rounder beefier than many

-it is an 'older' red label, so I hope its settled -that is indeed a good point and one I too often consider in buying new instruments

correct me if there is a metal rod under the fingerboard ala old martin guitars
-but there appears to be no adjustment anywhere

[peter.coombe]

I use carbon fibre reinforcement in my necks. After over 150 mandolins, never had a problem as far as I know. I know some people are adamant a truss rod is necessary, but my experience is otherwise.

[dustyamps]

My 1920 Gibson A model with no truss rod has survived with no problems with the neck.

[Loretta Callahan]

Thanks for all of the replies. I'll probably re-read this thread several times to let all of the information here sink in. I can understand a Bluegrasser needing a mandolin with a truss rod, based on what Justus wrote, but this thread has mostly confirmed what my gut tells me about my 2 mandolins: they're probably fine truss-less.

I only practice 1-3 hours a day, out in the world a few hours a month ... tops, and play Irish Trad, not BG ... very different ... no chopping. And as Mandroid and others point out, the mandolin will most likely outlast me anyway ... one of them is already 25 years older than me.

This is interesting:



Another thing to think about is that adding weight inside a mandolin actually does change the sound to a certain degree. Mandolins with little to nothing in the neck (carbon fiber strip like some builders do, or solid wood like the old Gibby's) IMO usually have a nice open sound with quick response right off the bat..!

Seems like there are two schools of thought regarding the truss rod issue, but there are extenuating circumstances, i.e.: style of playing, mandolin age, etc.

Once again, I have a lot to chew on here. I love engaging you all in a virtual "dinner" conversation ... always lots of leftovers.

[Beanzy]

I only practice 1-3 hours a day,

Spoken like a true mandolin-junkie :mandosmiley:

[almeriastrings]

As it happens, all my mandolins have them, and all four of my favorite guitars ('39 D-18, '45 D-18, '50 D-28 and '67 D-35) don't. It is pretty much a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

[Pasha Alden]

My Crafter Ovation does not have an adjustable truss rod. My Jbovier a5 has one. I survived both, but to add to Beanzie's post: I find the neck on my Crafter Ovation style rather wider. So enjoy playing whichever works for you.
Happy playing

Vanilla

[Pasha Alden]

At Tim: certainly. My neck on Crafter ovation also goes nowhere. That is great! Must say I have had no problem with the Jbovier's neck thus far. So it seems she is well adjusted.

[Alex Orr]

I don't think style of play would make any difference. Again, I think the issue has more to do with design and, to some degree, age. If the thing is old and the neck still has correct relief, then the truss rod is probably not an issue. If the thing was made by a reputable, skilled luthier who knew exactly what he was doing in leaving out the adjustable truss rod, then it's also probably okay. If it's a cheap factory made model that maybe just left it out for expediency's sake, then it is probably going to suffer a great deal from the lack of an adjustable truss.

[bmac]

I have a few new ones with truss rods and maybe ten mandos from the 1920s through the 1950s without truss rods. they are all fine.

If you want to go with a very slender neck then get one with a truss rod but otherwise most necks can withstand the strain. In the past I had a cheap mando with a dramatically bent neck but that was definately an exception.

[Shelagh Moore]

I personally don't think a mandolin particularly needs an adjustable trussrod but I do like some form of neck reinforcement and have fitted quite a few carbon fibre strips during repairs which I prefer due to their stiffness/mass ratio. Once things are set up properly there should be no movement of a mandolin neck if CF-reinforced.

[Pete Summers]

I have a 90 year old Regal mandolin with no truss rod. At 70 years old myself, I only wish my own neck was as straight.

Of course, it is the shorter 13 inch scale, so maybe that puts less stress on a neck than the modern 14 inch, I don't know. For other mandolins, I prefer an adjustable truss rod just because it gives me a sense (possibly false) of security, but like others here, I doubt that it really matters much if the instrument is otherwise well made.