Lyon & Healy Style C

[pheffernan]

107065

When I acquired my Snakehead, I was forced to pass on an old Lyon & Healy Style C that came available at the same time. Now, another one has surfaced locally, #547, and I was hoping to tap into your expertise concerning its age, condition, and value based on a couple of primitive images.

Thanks,
Pat

[Jim Garber]

According to Hubert P's Washburn book: that stairstep peghead was used for styles B & C from 1917 to about 1921 and the scale length would have been the longer 13 3/4" pre-1921 as well. i can't tell much from the condition considering those small photos. It is good that it has the original tailpiece. As with any vintage instrument, just make sure that there is no sinkage in the top and check for cracks and any warpage in the neck. if available locally, can you take a look in person before buying it?

This one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920s-Lyon-Healy-Mandolin-style-C-/221281713749) is currently on eBay for a BIN for comparison.

[pheffernan]

Thanks for the point of reference, Jim. This one is considerably cheaper, only $900, but has some intonation issues with a bridge whose foot is planted in a sticky overspray to seemingly everything except the back of the neck. I'm currently seeking counsel in Building & Repair during a 72 hour approval window.

[mrmando]

The back and sides may have been refinished (they're usually darker than the top) and the tuners may be replacements. Still, $900 is hard to beat.

[pheffernan]

The sides are darker, so perhaps I have a refinished back in addition to an overspray. The tuners are metallic, a brass or bronze color, which are different from most of the pearloid images I see online. And the case, while old, I'm going to assume is not original. On the plus side, it has its tailpiece cover and, even in its hobbled state, a bright, lovely voice. I'm down to roughly 48 hours in my approval window and trying to ascertain the cost of repair and confirmation of the wisdom of the purchase. I'm not a flipper -- I have not sold one yet despite the fact that I keep buying them -- just a player who saw an instrument on his list of desirables surface locally for roughly half of advertised prices such as this one: http://www.theparlorknoxville.com/mandolins/1920s-lyon-healy-style-c.

[pheffernan]

Digging around in the archives, I'm now wondering if perhaps the tuners are original as they look exactly like the ones shown in this thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?14935-Looking-for-Lyon-and-Healy-tuners-12-1.

[mrmando]

Would need a bigger photo of the tuners to render a useful opinion.

[pheffernan]

Do these images help?

107107107108107109

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

original tuners, but the buttons are a replacement. They look like brass?

[pheffernan]

They look like an antiqued brass, and I'm finding similar ones on images of Lyon & Healy Style A mandolins as well as Rigel reproductions of the same: http://www.rigelinstruments.com/custom.shtml

I also had first contact with a local luthier who ballparked $400 to strip and rebuild the finish. Can anyone comment whether that estimate would be the going rate for such work?

[Jim Garber]

Unless the refinish is truly poor or super thick and it bothers you, I would leave it alone. You are certainly not going to increase the value of the instrument by refinishing it again.

[mrmando]

I've seen plenty of L&H mandolins and none with brass buttons. Black buttons, yes; brass, no.

[pheffernan]

Unless the refinish is truly poor or super thick and it bothers you, I would leave it alone. You are certainly not going to increase the value of the instrument by refinishing it again.

I appreciate your advice, and I'm not eager to pour money into the mandolin that i wont be able to get out of it. But as presently constituted, the bridge is fixed to the sticky top and the instrument does not intonate correctly. The back even adheres to my shirt when I'm playing. Can the overspray be removed either chemically or manually without a subsequent refinish? Could a qualified luthier carefully detach the bridge and reposition it as part of a setup so that it intimates correctly without addressing the finish problem? I'm out of my depth here.

[pheffernan]

I've seen plenty of L&H mandolins and none with brass buttons. Black buttons, yes; brass, no.

I don't doubt you, and I would certainly defer to your experience and expertise. Would the buttons be brass in this link?

http://www.mandolinluthier.com/Garchtops.htm

[Jim Garber]

Pat: it does sound like the mandolin needs that poorly done finish removed. I would think that it would depend on what the refinisher used to do the dirty deed would impact how to remove it. In that case tho it does sound like it would be worth it to have it done professionally and correctly.

As far as the tuners, I have have also not seen any with brass buttons. I would guess that someone decided to use some brass disks as tuner buttons and attached them to the original(?) tuners.

Here are all the tuner pics I have for L&H Cs for comparison.

[Tavy]

I appreciate your advice, and I'm not eager to pour money into the mandolin that i wont be able to get out of it. But as presently constituted, the bridge is fixed to the sticky top and the instrument does not intonate correctly. The back even adheres to my shirt when I'm playing. Can the overspray be removed either chemically or manually without a subsequent refinish? Could a qualified luthier carefully detach the bridge and reposition it as part of a setup so that it intimates correctly without addressing the finish problem? I'm out of my depth here.

Yes you should be able to detach the bridge and reposition - of course you don't know till you try, nor will you know how much damage is done to the top finish in the process. It might actually move a lot easier that anyone expects, or it might be really stuck fast. Look at it this way - if it moves easier than expected it's a $50 setup and you're good to go, if it's stuck fast then you'll possibly need the top refinishing. But you knew that anyway, right?

As for removing the overspray - it depends what finish was oversprayed on what. If it's all the same type of finish, then I wouldn't try and remove it chemically, or take it all off, just sand off the excess, and skim over a fresh topcoat. To put it another way, if you ask a luthier "how much will a refinish cost", he'll tell you, even though that may not be what's ultimately required - it's a bit like phoning your garage to ask how much a new engine is, when you just need the plugs changing ;)

[mrmando]

Would the buttons be brass in this link?
http://www.mandolinluthier.com/Garchtops.htm
Photo too small, can't tell.

[bmac]

regarding the sticky finish... it was likely re-finished with linseed oil.... Normally boiled linseed oil will dry hard, but I have had some which, when applied to wood remained sticky for years just as you described and as pure linseed oil will do when used without a drier added. In my experience refinishing furniture you will be hard pressed to remove the linseed oil without damaging the finish underneath. But that sort of thing is done on paintings which were varnished many times over the years. it is done on valuable antique furniture as well.

The varnish can be removed but so will anything under the linseed oil unless you are very very careful. I could be wrong but I think asking a luthier to do it will be very expensive. It is importqant that you get all of the sticky finish off before applying a new finish.

THat probably is the reason the price was low. it is a lot of tedius work.... Be thankful that the previous owner didnt paint it a color.

[pheffernan]

I returned the instrument due to the undisclosed finish issues and it is now on eBay at a considerable markup: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251357766824

[brunello97]

I returned the instrument due to the undisclosed finish issues and it is now on eBay at a considerable markup: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251357766824

"The original finish is still shiny." What's up with that? "The non-original finish is still sticky" sounds like it might be more accurate ad copy.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

"The original finish is still shiny." What's up with that? "The non-original finish is still sticky" sounds like it might be more accurate ad copy.

Hah!! and, of course, my pet peeve: "THE VULCANIZED RUBBER PICKGUARD". I corrected Stan at Mandolin Brothers who appreciated it. I don't think i would bother with this guy.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I returned the instrument due to the undisclosed finish issues and it is now on eBay at a considerable markup: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251357766824

So someone bought it from GC and is reselling it on eBay? And interestingly, it's the same seller who has the ViviTone Guitar that was mentioned on the cafe home page not long ago.

[pheffernan]

It sold for $1524, so somebody made $625 less eBay fees on this flip.