Let's lobby for the mandolin. :)

[Elliot Luber]

Reddit asking (http://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/1mrrgu/whats_an_instrument_you_would_love_to_hear_more/) what instrument would you like to hear more of in popular music.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/1mrrgu/whats_an_instrument_you_would_love_to_hear_more/

[Steve L]

I would actually like to hear less popular music.

[bjewell]

It's amazing how much the little buggers show up in commercials that want you to feel the product is "authentic." Whether it's a burger or a vehicle, once you hear that eedle-eedle-eedle you know they want you to believe in their wares...

[SincereCorgi]

It's amazing how much the little buggers show up in commercials that want you to feel the product is "authentic." Whether it's a burger or a vehicle, once you hear that eedle-eedle-eedle you know they want you to believe in their wares...

It's funny isn't it? It seems like if they want to sell a car to cute young couples, they use a ukulele, and if they want to sell beer or whiskey to beardos, they use a mandolin.

[Tobin]

One of my worst fears is the mandolin becoming "mainstream", or being as ubiquitous as the guitar. I'm quite happy with its history and its current place in music. Some folks may see this position as not being in the best interests of the mandolin world. I see it as being the best thing for the mandolin world. To expand its popularity is to destroy, or alter permanently, its image. Popular culture has nothing favorable to offer. But that's just the opinion of this rural Texan.

I guess that's my fancy way of saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Tom Coletti]

One of my worst fears is the mandolin becoming "mainstream", or being as ubiquitous as the guitar... To expand its popularity is to destroy, or alter permanently, its image.

One of my worst fears is that the mandolin will remain so esoteric that people will still ask if it is a ukulele out of ignorance. Just look at the banjo: ten years ago, commoners only associated it with inbreeding and white southerner stereotypes. Now with groups like M&S and the Avett Bros., the banjo is a respectable instrument amongst a greater portion of the masses. Sure, those groups don't use it in a traditional way, but it gets people interested in banjo music, and then it opens the door for them to eventually stumble upon great players like Bela Fleck, Steve Martin, Noam Pikelney, etc.

Honestly, I can only foresee a surge in mandolin popularity as being a good thing for its longevity. Show people that it is a wonderful and fun instrument that is capable of anything. Show people that it is very much in touch with modernity as well as its rich tradition, so that it does not become lost to time and obscurity in the name of shielding it from outside influence. Show people that it has a wonderfully unique family of its larger cousins, and maybe we'll start seeing an octave mando or mandocello start to replace guitars in certain situations, maybe even a resurgence of mandolin-family groups and mando-orchestras. Show people that the mandolin is not a frightening sound or a backwards instrument of austerity, but rather one of the greatest, sweetest, coolest, most versatile, and most enjoyable instruments of all time, and never again will we have to endure the irritation of "that's a weird little guitar thing."

--Tom

[Steve Sorensen]

Tobin,

I can't disagree with your post more.

I was stuck in the car and the classic rock station played some Metallica. I realized, it takes a really focused, innocent and hopeful young person to think that they can shock or change the world through music. Popular music that hooks kids and gets them singing, playing and dancing is constructive -- even when it sets out to be wild and harsh and anti-old. Only the manipulation of the marketers and media machine turns that sour.

Luckily, with the internet, young people can find and make music without being as polluted by big money as they were even 20 years ago. My 19 year-old daughter listens to Rap, Ska, Bluegrass, Reggae, Rock, New-age and psuedo-"Americana" all in the same playlist. Most of her musician friends are the same. The other day she texted me to let me know she found a great new band called Jefferson Airplane . . .

100 years ago, the mandolin was the most popular stringed instrument . . . It was eclipsed by the guitar and then electric-powered music.

But now, as young people graze over all the music available to them, there is a whole set who are finding acoustic and roots-based music. Seems the entry level instrument is the Ukulele (or Banjo!)

I'm hoping that as this wide-ranging Uke generation grows up, a good set of them gravitate toward the mandolin!

Making music, by it's very nature is hopeful, soul-building and healthy -- even when it starts out as simple, bland or contrived.

Remember, most of the "classic" music we jam on now was considered "Popular" music not so long ago.

I can think of nothing more positive for the future of the world than having more people making music with the magnificent mandolin.

Steve

[catmandu2]

As Tobin remarks--any entity is altered when subsumed under mechanization

Folk music is paradoxical: so formally accessible, and yet "esoteric." Hard to avoid philosophic and sociologic observation when replying to these

[Tobin]

I can think of nothing more positive for the future of the world than having more people making music with the magnificent mandolin.
This is all personal opinion anyway, but think of the genre of music you detest the most. Imagine the most profane or grotesque style of musical entertainment, and then picture it being done with a mandolin at its center. Then imagine all of the followers of that style of music buying mandolins and completely hijacking the image of the mandolin so that when people think of the mandolin, they equate it with that awful style of music.

Would that really be the positive future you had hoped for?

I do agree that I'd like to see future generations playing the mandolin. But if I'm being honest, it's because I'd like them to gravitate towards more traditional acoustic music. A return to the mandolin and other traditional acoustic instruments being played in family rooms across the nation would be a refreshing thing. But the idea of the mandolin being hijacked into popular music, and all the negative stuff associated with it, doesn't exactly thrill me.

Fortunately for most people, I'm not in charge of such things. :)

[TheBlindBard]

There are some good points here. I personally dislike most popular music they put on the radio. Lots of catchy little jingles that have little or no meaning to me personally.
Delving into fusion genres and some older music, though, it can be quite good. Anybody ever hear of psychobilly?
I've seen mandolin videos that are really awesome. Some stuff by the Smiths (That guy has a great tremelo, almost reminded me of a harp, it was sweet and pure).
I suppose, what I'm saying here, is, just as there is "mainstream" and "popular" music, that's with a group of people. We all have our metal-heads, rappers, country singers and the like. All of these people have their own following.

[catmandu2]

Of course everything involves an aesthetic choice. And without castigating the whole of popular culture (though warranted as it typically is), I find limiting my exposure to stereotype refreshing. I enjoy the unique

[JEStanek]

Folding mandolin into other music styles is great. I don't have to like them. My daughter loves a screamo band that incorporates violin and cello in their thrash metal wailings. Bemoaning the spread of an instrument into other genres is like bemoaning using a tool from the shop on some other project.

Tiny Tim didn't kill the ukulele. Chris Thile didn't destroy bluegrass. I'm a fan of diversity in sound over homogeneity. Certainly in the abstract while maybe not enjoying some of the particulars. I have a pretty broad range in terms of music I find stimulating and interesting or with merit.

Jamie

[barney 59]

The mandolin was certainly very popular a century ago but was it "the most popular stringed instrument"? Over the violin? Banjo in early jazz or even the guitar in early blues or country music? There is a real lacking of early recordings of mandolin music compared to many other instruments. So people liked to play but not so popular to listen to? The most extensive discography of early blues mandolin recordings is one that Rich DelGrosso put together...it's a pretty short list.
I think the mandolin in popular music is alive and well and you hear it more and more. Last night something popped up on "Son's of Anarchy". It seems to pop up much more than it did 20,30 years ago. Face it most popular music is not acoustic music although that seems to be getting a bit of a resurgence lately. Electric mandolin has a limited appeal -even to me-- and I have a mandocaster. Maybe if we can get the surf shops to start selling mandolins like they seem to be doing with the ukelele -------

[catmandu2]

Tiny Tim didn't kill the ukulele.



But delayed its general dissemination by a generation--he and Welk, on their respective instruments ;)

But all things cycle, so who's to say what's "normal" evolution...difficult to predict the trajectory of phenomena...but fun

[bjewell]

Hey, my main instrument -- at least the one with the most formal training -- is the pedal steel guitar. An Emmons D-10 (two 10 string necks on the frame, eight pedals and at least four knee levers all to change tuning on the fly) weighs about 65lbs. in the case. A matching amp such as a Twin Reverb is another 70lbs. You don't just go out and jam with those suckers. And the pedal steel is dying despite the fact that it is the very essence of Country and Country Rock. It takes deep, deep theory understanding and chops that are beyond description to play up to speed and steel players are the craziest guys in any band.

I am loving my new mandolin friend. I hope it stays just close enough to mainstream that people can identify it but not so close that they are selling cheapos at Costco like they sell guitars...

[catmandu2]

With wide dissemination comes much dross...as sturgeon observed

What's worse?...Tim, Welk, and racks full of rubbish F-style "ornamented" mandolins at Costco, or relative obscurity..

[William Smith]

Hey guys I know you all wanna see the little Cyrus girl twerkin all over a mandolin neck while the upright bass is just a thumpin! I know I "DONT"

[little george]

I am loving my new mandolin friend. I hope it stays just close enough to mainstream that people can identify it but not so close that they are selling cheapos at Costco like they sell guitars...

I can´t agree about this. Massive selling means massive production, and that means cheaper good quality instruments. I bought an Ibanez artcore af75 second hand for 200 dollars (150 euros actually). Its a really AMAZING guitar for that price. I own 4 ukuleles, and when I bought three of them I had to pay more (and none of them is nothing special). Now, I don´t care for most of the guitar playing nowadays, but I liked the chance to own a serious instrument for that money. When I bought my "the Loar vs-600" I paid 800 dollars new. But I would preffer getting it second hand for say 250-300...

Mainstream music, I do hate it, but it won´t stop me from playing the instruments I like...

[bjewell]

I can´t agree about this. Massive selling means massive production, and that means cheaper good quality instruments. I bought an Ibanez artcore af75 second hand for 200 dollars (150 euros actually). Its a really AMAZING guitar for that price. I own 4 ukuleles, and when I bought three of them I had to pay more (and none of them is nothing special). Now, I don´t care for most of the guitar playing nowadays, but I liked the chance to own a serious instrument for that money. When I bought my "the Loar vs-600" I paid 800 dollars new. But I would preffer getting it second hand for say 250-300...

Mainstream music, I do hate it, but it won´t stop me from playing the instruments I like...

Boy do I disagree with that. Massive selling means crap, period. And it also means massive cutting of tone woods. I'll say the following with a BIG FRIENDLY SMILE: Don't be such a cheapskate! :- ) :- ) :- ) Quality instruments will always cost a premium. Step up to the plate and you will never have to apologize for having "nothing special" :- ) Okay? -L-

[M.Marmot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9QAPch2o6Q&feature=player_detailpage

[chuck3]

Hey, my main instrument -- at least the one with the most formal training -- is the pedal steel guitar. An Emmons D-10 (two 10 string necks on the frame, eight pedals and at least four knee levers all to change tuning on the fly) weighs about 65lbs. in the case. A matching amp such as a Twin Reverb is another 70lbs. You don't just go out and jam with those suckers. And the pedal steel is dying despite the fact that it is the very essence of Country and Country Rock. It takes deep, deep theory understanding and chops that are beyond description to play up to speed and steel players are the craziest guys in any band.


That is so true. I love pedal steel and went and got myself one, figuring - hey, it's a stringed instrument, how hard can it be to play? I have a pretty deep theory understanding, and I took some lessons.

Short answer - it's really, really hard, notwithstanding all that. I decided to put it down as it would have monopolized my practice time to the detriment of mandolin, upright bass and bass guitar.

[catmandu2]

... pedal steel - it's really, really hard..

Like driving a manual transmission--steering with your knees--while eating a salad (with dressing)

[OldSausage]

I want to hear more cowbell.

[DataNick]

I want to hear more cowbell.

Only if played with spoons...

[Randi Gormley]

Well, if mandolin became mainstream and were picked up by some form of music that I didn't care for (with its attendant fan base), it actually wouldn't affect my playing ITM. And it wouldn't stop me from playing baroque on my bowlback. The fact that thrash metal or whatever uses guitars hasn't stopped my cousin from diving straight into classical and flamenco guitar. there's tons of really terrible fiction out there, but it hasn't stopped me from reading the classics or delving into the good writers in the genres I favor. I think even the mandolin would survive popularity. Personally, I'd rather it stayed kind of niche, but if it did become a mainstream instrument, that would mean more chances of someone being introduced to music through it. And there'd be a bigger market in used instruments once people realized how much skill it takes to play it well ...

[Timbofood]

Bjewell, I think part of the decline in "steel" is the double helix of homogenization in country music and pop (sometimes thought of as drivel) unfortunately, the music buying public drives this. I grew up with classical music, show tunes, church music, siblings listening to R&R, blues and so on. Music is what we get from it or give to it or share.
My nephew listens to hip hop, and said "Boy, the old folks homes will sound pretty strange when I get there!" Roll with all of it, mandolin will ebb and flow through time as the personal little delight always has.
Oh, I was bitten by the steel bug forever ago, gave it two weeks realized that it was too many strings, too many pedals, knee levers, oh did I even mention the steel itself! Guys that play it well are a source of shock and awe to me! There was a country band that had two steel players who bought strings(.011 by the dozen) from the shop I worked in, both great guys, different styles but hot as can be. Both have moved on to greater things, session work and so on. Then the guy who bought the kit and could not figure out to build it.....and there it begins. The learning curve for that little slice of hell scares me but demands huge respect.
Guess that got a bit off topic, sorry.

[little george]

Boy do I disagree with that. Massive selling means crap, period. And it also means massive cutting of tone woods. I'll say the following with a BIG FRIENDLY SMILE: Don't be such a cheapskate! :- ) :- ) :- ) Quality instruments will always cost a premium. Step up to the plate and you will never have to apologize for having "nothing special" :- ) Okay? -L-

Well, you see English is not my mother tongue. So to avoid misunderstandings, I´m not going to answer anything personal :)

[roysboy]

Entertaining thread going here. Recap from my corner suggests (1.) We're good with mandolin showing up in other genres ...(2.) EVERYBODY hates contemporary pop , county-pop and twerking .(.errr...sorry Robin ...didn't see your hand up ... )ok ..one guy is good with twerking .

On a more optimistic note . For the past year or so I've been teaching ( mentoring ) two 14 year old twin sisters who are crazy in love with acoustic music from early Dolly Parton to Kacey Musgraves , Lightfoot to the Lumineers. They show up for lessons with mandolin , banjo and two guitars in tow and are geared up from the get-go to soak up as much as they can week after week . And soak it up they do . Inspiring ?? You better believe it . Did I mention they are just 14 ? They've already outgrown and have no use for Taylor Swift's 'genre' of music (whatever that might be )... no time for one more 'country' song about drunk girls dancing on the tailgate of their drunk boyfriend's daddy's truck by the lake in the moonlight and are currently working up guitar-mando arrangements of Whiskey Before Breakfast and Ashokan Farewell for their LIVE shows ( yes- they've been playing gigs for nearly two years ) . In their spare time , which they have much more of since opting to home -school this year , they write their own music and lyrics to pitch as well as perform. They busk to earn $$$ to finance pilgrimages to Nashville ( 3 times in just over a year ) and are totally focused and committed to acoustic music . AND they are two terrific naturally gifted vocalists who record at our studio quite regularly and have won several local contests.
All this to say that you can only imagine how encouraged I am to see this kind of passion from such young musicians and how wonderful that they know the difference between the "good stuff" and the throwaway stuff pedaled by modern pop radio . BTW , these aren't some country born- and- raised -up- at -5 -to-do- farm -chores-raised- on- trad -country- or-bluegrass young pickers . They are big city bred , big city schooled , big city influenced young ladies who seemed to know what they wanted to study and play from first listen . Sorry for rambling but they are a light in the storm for me ...can you tell ?

[bjewell]

Well, you see English is not my mother tongue. So to avoid misunderstandings, I´m not going to answer anything personal :)

Thanks LG. My heart is in the right place and I totally respect your country and especially your football team...;- )

[Ed Goist]

Thought provoking thread.

I think there is an interesting and unique psychology at work when people do not want the subject of their passion to be "more popular". For example, I just can't image any wine enthusiast, or guitar lover, or chess aficionado saying, "I'm really glad the thing I love isn't more popular in our culture than it already is".

The vast majority of people are evangelical about their passions.

Unique psychology indeed.

[Mike Bunting]

Thanks LG. My heart is in the right place and I totally respect your country and especially your football team...;- )

@ little George, but what's up with your basketball team! Jose Calderon is one of my favourite players.

[little george]

@ little George, but what's up with your basketball team! Jose Calderon is one of my favourite players.
Sorry, no idea. I find very boring watching sports (not playing them). I allways prefer picking to watch sports :mandosmiley:

[Pasha Alden]

At little George: glad you enjoy picking more than sport. Of course for me I watch Fernando Alonso in f1!
As for being passionate about well shall we say our passions: "perhaps they become somewhat like a religion, something that is an integral part of us? Perhaps a kind of religion, as Ed or someone remarked we become their evangelist - spreading their "gospel"

My gospel: the mandolin is allowing me to be the musician I actually was intended to be and it is a profoundly healing experience.

What a wonderful café!
this is one of the best discussion platforms I have ever been on on internet.
.


Happy picking all and whether you end up picking or strumming - remember: let the music take you!

[M.Marmot]

Well, if mandolin became mainstream and were picked up by some form of music that I didn't care for (with its attendant fan base), it actually wouldn't affect my playing ITM. And it wouldn't stop me from playing baroque on my bowlback. The fact that thrash metal or whatever uses guitars hasn't stopped my cousin from diving straight into classical and flamenco guitar. there's tons of really terrible fiction out there, but it hasn't stopped me from reading the classics or delving into the good writers in the genres I favor. I think even the mandolin would survive popularity. Personally, I'd rather it stayed kind of niche, but if it did become a mainstream instrument, that would mean more chances of someone being introduced to music through it. And there'd be a bigger market in used instruments once people realized how much skill it takes to play it well ...

It did it once it can do it again!

[Bertram Henze]

It's amazing how much the little buggers show up in commercials that want you to feel the product is "authentic." Whether it's a burger or a vehicle, once you hear that eedle-eedle-eedle you know they want you to believe in their wares...

It's a good thing that mandolin stands for honesty. :cool:


One of my worst fears is the mandolin becoming "mainstream", or being as ubiquitous as the guitar.

Honesty, alas, is not mainstream, therefore the mandolin can never be either. :mandosmiley:

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Santiago,
Thanks for posting the reddit link. Seems like a natural as the Cafe is dedicated to promoting the mandolin. The turn in the discussion is fascinating. Of course the question is 'what instrument do you want to hear more of in mainstream music. The mandolin is already mainstream. I don't buy the narrow definition of mainstream as Miley Cyrus and top 40. Classical is mainstream. Bluegrass is mainstream. Many of the other styles and genres discussed around here are mainstream. Yes, they have 'niches'. But 'pop' is just as much a niche as anything else. It is just a really, really big niche. I understand that people like to think that they are the guardians of their particular passions (an instrument, a band, an author) against the corrupting force of mass culture. But you have to ask yourself: Am I not already part of that mass culture?

[OldSausage]

But if that's true, then everything is niche, and everything is also mass culture. And words are just bricks that we can throw where we will.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

While 'niche' and 'mass culture' are not mutually exclusive, they are not identical. I think Classical and BG can be legitimately considered niche, but the idea that that means they are not mainstream is hard to buy. There are certainly very small niches that are not mainstream by any measure (like, the ones you and I and 99% of people have never heard of). The idea that the mandolin is authentic, pristine, pure, untainted by mass culture, well, that seems like marketing talk to me. Or is that how people have always thought about mandolins? (I also wonder if the desire to describe certain mandolin tones as 'woody' is not an attempt to connote these same ideas. Did Gibson or Loar use this term? I have no idea, but I would not be shocked to discover it is a 'post electric guitar' attempt to evoke a 'simpler time'.)

[OldSausage]

What's wrong with marketing talk? If we weren't allowed to hark back to simpler times and pine for our home village and the lost values of our forefathers in order to sell a few cheap goods, where would we, as a society, be?

[Franc Homier Lieu]

What's wrong with marketing talk? If we weren't allowed to hark back to simpler times and pine for our home village and the lost values of our forefathers in order to sell a few cheap goods, where would we, as a society, be?

Nothing wrong with it at all. It is an important part of the identities and personal mythologies we create for ourselves. I do not for a minute want to imply that I play the mandolin without enjoying the sense of 'authenticity' and 'simplicity' and general feeling of superiority to the hoi polloi it gives me. But I play it on a rather inexpensive Chinese mandolin mass produced and marketed to me, and then I go and discuss mandolin stuff with people from all over the world in the interweb.

Come to think of it, I hope the internets don't get too popular either. It would be a shame to ruin the good thing we have got going on here.

[almeriastrings]

Now with groups like M&S and the Avett Bros.

Who?

I thought M&S was a European chain of fashion and food stores.

[Bertram Henze]

I guess if mandolins would get much more popular, many of us would feel weird, because the very words and values we share about this instrument today would be changed by all those intruders.

The internet has been mentioned - I grew up with wardrobe-sized computers fed on punch cards in a time when hardly anybody in normal life (or mainstream, if you like) even knew what a computer was. Today, people call themselves "computer-literate" if they only can do a Google search. Almost nobody bothers to type "http://184.173.240.118:80/index.html" in the browser address field (do it and be surprised) nor can they say what that number means. They are not computer-literate - the computers have become people-literate.

That means even if our mandolin gets more popular there'll be no more good mandolin players, because the instrument features no such convenience shortcuts. They say the instrument finds its player - how do we tell the mandolin to put in long hours to find more?

[bjewell]

But if that's true, then everything is niche, and everything is also mass culture. And words are just bricks that we can throw where we will.

OS, I see what you did there... ;- ) and a shout out for Young Harris GA, a place my parents kept a summer home for many years. Great folks, beautiful country and a stones throw from Hayesville NC ands all its fetid charms... -L-

[rb3868]

As Tobin remarks--any entity is altered when subsumed under mechanization

Folk music is paradoxical: so formally accessible, and yet "esoteric." Hard to avoid philosophic and sociologic observation when replying to these

Pete Seeger once said that folk music is any music that comes from "the folk." He explicitly included punk and rap in that.

I don't see the mandolin becoming ubiquitous, and anyone who mistakes one for a uke should be given a heavy shot of flea spray.

I like the trajectory I see for mandos, but I would like to see more of them up front instead of sitting in the background

[Matt DeBlass]

I'm going to say what I know what we're all thinking, and nobody's said yet.

If the mandolin becomes more popular, there are going to be even MORE people out there who play it better than me! :crying: