Early Gibson (teens, twenties) A's

[keithd]

I've asked this before without much response, but thought I'd try again. It seems well accepted that the early Gibson A series has produced an awful lot of mandolins with great voices. There are at leat a few#builders that re-interprete these mandolins today; Sawchyn and Coombe, for example, make versions that really capture the details and look (sadly, I've not had the opportunity to play or hear any of these). I believe these builders use some kind of X or modified X-bracing for their tops.

Does anyone have some insight or opinions about the original short transverse bracing of the old Gibson A's? What part did this design play in the sound of these mandolins (vs. other construction features)? There is so much discussion of the F series design and sound; I'm curious what the experts have to say about the A's (or for that matter the F-2 and F-4).

I know there is the typical structural failure from this brace coming loose( is this the main reason it ahs been rejected, despite the sound?), but what about the sound?

Thanks,

Keith

[Jim M.]

I have a Brentrup oval hole with a transverse brace, and it sounds great. I also have a 1918 F2 that's structurally sound, great volume and tone. But I've played some of the newer x-braced ovals that also sound great. I'm not an expert but I wanted to
bump this back to the top because I'm curious too.

Hey Keith - You going to Inverness in March?

[peter.coombe]

I have used both and definately prefer X bracing. Difficult to describe the sound difference in words, but I think I would describe it as a "finer" sounding tone. There is not a huge difference, but there is a definate and significant difference in sound. I started out using a single cross brace, but slowly developed the current X brace and would never go back to a cross brace.

[keithd]

Thanks for the reply Peter. So, you have tried bracing similar to the teens Gibson, and moved on? At Lark music camp (in Mendocino, CA) last summer I think I may have spotted one of your mandolins; I'll have to be pushy this summer be sure to track it down.

Jim, what's happening in Inverness? Inverness CA, right? Thanks,

Keith

[Jack Roberts]

Peter and Keith:

I am a new owner of a 1918 A1. Every time I pick it up I am in awe. It does have the short little brace in it, but one thing that I noticed about this mandolin compared to others is the sound produced when I just tap the top. It sounds deeper and more resonant than any other mandolin I have played. Perhaps I should try to record the sound of tapping the top of this and my other mandolins. Nothing sounds like it. I don't think it has anything to do with the bracing. I think it is the whole package.

Peter, I am considering sending it to you for your expert opinion before you start building a certain mandola later in the year...

[Jim M.]

Co-Mando jam in Inverness, the weekend of March 12-13th. You can search the Co-mando archives or I'll pm you the particulars. Lots of great mandolins to sample; there's at least one Coombe floating around the Bay Area that usually shows up at the jam. Art Stern often brings a pack of great mandos; sometimes Lowell Levenger from Vintage Instruments brings a bunch too.

[keithd]

Jim,

Sounds like a hoot. I couldn't find anything current on Co-Mando (I'm not a user, so don't really know my way around it). I purchased a Gibson TB-4 from Mr. Levenger in person there this last year. - any excuse to drive up again would be welcome. Please pm me with info if you can - thanks!

So, your Brentrup had a transverse brace? How does it compare to the brace in your F-2? Similar length and depth? PLacement in relation to the bridge and hole? What are the X-braced oval hole instruments you've played?

Keith

[peter.coombe]

I know exactly what you mean when you tap that 1918 A1. That is exactly what I aim to get happening in all my oval hole mandolins and mandolas. What you are hearing is the helmholtz resonance of the soundbox and by correct tuning of the top and back, you can get a real woof when tapping the top. These mandolins usually are the best sounding and the loudest and more responsive. Not many of the Gibsons do this, but they did fluke the odd few.

[keithd]

Peter,

Where does one tap to try this? Also, I know you build with diferrent kind of native Austrlian (and non-native) woods, top and back; how do these very in the tap tuning process? Does wood choice also alter your top bracing approach? Thanks,

Keith

[Dolamon]

I've got a Sawchyn A2, oval hole with the small transverse brace and it is night and day compared to any pre 1923 Gibson I've played. It is loud, has a respectable chop of sorts, is great on rhythm or melody playing and has a monster carved in recurve on the top and back.

I think (as in Peter Coombe's remarkable instruments) the sound difference isn't just in the transverse brace but the real care in carving and assembly which both Peter's (Sawchyn and Coombe) use in building today's instruments. You have to accept the fact that Gibson's, with a few notable exceptions, are basically production line / assembly line instruments which were primarily a hit or miss situation.

The current small builders take a lot of time to get it right - and when they do - it can be perfection.

[peter.coombe]

The best way I can answer keithd's question is to refer him to a paper I have submitted for publication. I have been threatening to write this paper for a long time and have finally made good on the threat. As soon as it comes out I will put it on my web site, but I can't publish it on the net before it comes out on paper.

I use Chladni plate tuning, but that is basically the same as tap tuning and tap tuning is explained in the paper. Wood choice has no influence in how I brace the top. My favorite Aussie timber, Myrtle, tunes up very similar to European Maple so I don't do anything different no matter what wood I use. There is a huge amount of variation within a species anyway so there is a lot of overlap. Although you might class Red Spruce (for example) as being stiff and heavy, not all samples are stiff and heavy. I have used Red Spruce as light as Engelmann, but it still sounds like Red Spruce.

[Jack Roberts]

I traveled quite a distance to play mandolins in a shop known for having a lot of older ones. Basically, what I heard when I played the particular A-1 that I bought was a lot of volume and complexity. Not a bluegrass sound: it won't chop at all, but volume, like a much larger guitar. It also had so much resonance across the spectrum that if I pluck one string, all other strings seem to vibrate to some extent.

In comparing further, I tapped the top of this instrument and several other 'teen A models in the shop, as well as some 'teen F models, and only got the deep, resonant, echoing sound out of this one. I also do not get it out of my other (more expensive) mandolins. (It doesn't matter where you tap: the difference is striking when you hear it.) By the way, this was not the most expensive 'teen A in the store. It was the cheapest, because it showed serious wear from being played over the years.

Another feature of the sound I noticed is that I often accidently play harmonics on the strings just by brushing my fingertips across the frets where the harmonics are generated. That is why the instrument sounds "haunted".

It seems this one is a find. Peter Coombe and his colleagues are reproducing the sound of the occasional Gibson 'teen instruments with this sound. But let me say the sound is not for everybody. I use this instrument to play the "Northern Fiddle Tune" genre, where the sustain and volume are desireable. For classical music (Bach) the sound is wonderful, but it is a little tough to play because I have to quiet the open strings once in a while, or I get undesired harmonics. For Bluegrass, the F-holed Collings I play is a better choice. It has volume and sustain, but can create a "chop" or "bark" that I can't get with the 1918 A-1.