In search of red teens F4 bought at Renningers in Florida in 1989

[afranken]

In search of my great grandfather's mandolin. My parents sold it at a Florida antique market called Renningers, somewhere around June 1989. Unfortunately, all I have is a pic (no serial #). Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 and my parents and I wish we could get it back, especially since I've started playing mandolin.

My great grandfather, Will Millen, played in a Red Oak, Iowa band called the Ragpickers. He died in 1938.

From my limited knowledge, I'm estimating that this is an early teens (1914-1917) F4 (based on the peghead / inlay & Handel tuners, and some browsing on mandolinarchive.com). Looks like the bridge may not be original. My parents remember the mandolin and case being in excellent condition.

I know I'm searching for a needle in a haystack but if you know anything regarding this mandolin, please let me know. Thanks.

Alex
105382

[Scott Tichenor]

That's what the web is good for, searching for needles. Can't say it'll help but I've posted this on our Facebook/Twitter/Google+ pages and I'm headed to place it on the Cafe home page in a bit. Would also suggest you post a Wanted ad in the Classifieds using this same text above. You never know. Have seen some incredible finds over the years no more difficult than this. If there's one good thing the internet should do for us, I can think of not a finer example.

[Bob DeVellis]

Without a serial number it will be really hard to know that a given mando is "the one." Maybe someone will know the history of their mandolin well enough to trace it back to the 1989 sale. If you have any other pictures, it would help to see it in multiple images so that any peculiarities of finish or grain could be used as a guide.

Best of luck!

[tablaninja]

Call Mountain Music in Chatanooga TN at (423) 875-5250
They had a red F4 approx 1917 the owner had bought to get restored. This was back in February. Good luck!

[Jim Garber]

It is hard to tell whether the bridge is original and even if there are Handel tuners -- at least hard to tell about the tuners on that one photo. It is possible that the person who bought it from Renningers would read this. You never know. Good luck on that search.

[tablaninja]

105384

Here's a photo I took. I have some of the label inside on my home computer. Will post them later.

SITE OWNER'S COMMENT: not sure why you've posted this as it's not the instrument in question and is confusing to the forum at large... Please explain.

[jdub87]

FYI
I saw a very similar F4 in Crescent City FL (not too far from Rennigers)in early 2005. For sale at "crescentcitymusic.biz"
Good luck
Jack W

[hank]

From the 2 photos it looks like an F2( no rear body binding,etc.). The first photo show a standard Gibson tailpiece but the second has a cloud tailpiece and what looks like several very long cracks(hopefully repaired cracks) in the top wood. the second photos looks like an older year F2 than the first Are both the photos of your grandfathers mandolin? If so which photo was the most recent?

[Jim Garber]

I got confused, too, Hank. Tablaninja is not the OP. The second pic is just of an F4 at Mountain Music in Chatanooga TN.

[thistle3585]

Not knowing what research you have done, I'd suggest starting with trying to talk Renningers in to searching their financial records for any mention of the deal. Then I'd try tracking down the members of the Ragpickers or their families to see if they have any photos of the band. If they were a bluegrass band, then I'd be very surprised if they didn't go to any area festivals where there would be jam sessions which inevitably would increase the likely hood of finding photos of your grandfather with the mandolin. I bet someone has a drawer full of band photos. More photos of the mandolin increases the likelihood of identifying key aspects of it. If you found some additional photos then you could start by comparing photos to those in the archive then move to google images. Just my two cents.

[allenhopkins]

...I'd try tracking down the members of the Ragpickers or their families to see if they have any photos of the band. If they were a bluegrass band, then I'd be very surprised if they didn't go to any area festivals where there would be jam sessions which inevitably would increase the likely hood of finding photos of your grandfather with the mandolin. I bet someone has a drawer full of band photos...

Ragpickers couldn't have been a bluegrass band if OP's grandfather died in 1938; too early. From the name, they may have been a jazz or ragtime string band. No Google hits on them, just some contemporary groups. Coulda been just a local group, never recorded, not a big "paper trail."

I think starting with Renningers makes the most sense. Low probability of success, but if you don't try, the result is certain...

[tablaninja]

105384

Here's a photo I took. I have some of the label inside on my home computer. Will post them later.

SITE OWNER'S COMMENT: not sure why you've posted this as it's not the instrument in question and is confusing to the forum at large... Please explain.

I'm very sorry, my comment and the picture of the one I saw in Chattanooga were meant to go together. I thought it fit the description of the one in question but I was mistaken. Please remove my photo or help me figure out how to remove it. Thanks.

[Michael Lewis]

I agree with Hank, the OP pic appears to be a F2 with Handel tuners. Does that make it 1917 or earlier?

[djweiss]

Looks like a bound headstock to me (in the first photo), which with the flowerpot inlay would indicate an F4...

[hank]

That may be our first distinguishing identifier an F2 with a bound headstock in the years before Handel tuner buttons we no longer available. Thanks Jim, that second photo threw me a loop.

[hank]

The red case lining is another identifier and is likely still paired up with this mandolin if it also was in good condition as the OP states.

[Jim Garber]

I am not sure where the F2 ID is coming from. I have not seen any F2s with flowerpots. I still do not see the Handels in that one OP photo. It may just be fuzzy tho.

Unless there are some critical identifiers like a cracked pickguard or characteristic wood pattern, or if it is paired with a case with hotel or old band stickers or that had band literature in it, it will be very hard to find this in the "haystack".

In any case, you came to the right place. The folks here will help more than anywhere else.

[Capt. E]

Ignore the second photo, guys. The first is an F4, just as Jim says...bound peghead, flower pot etc. Can't see the bridge, but my guess is that it will be original. It looks very well cared for from the photos. Those may be Handels, but yes, kind of fuzzzy.

Best suggestions has been the sighting in Crescent City and contacting Reningers for sale records. I don't expect they have had very many F4's come through the shop. Good luck tracking it down.

[hank]

Ok the distinguishing feature is that it's an F4 without back binding if it's not an F2 with upgraded headstock binding and inlay.

[Capt. E]

Not sure from the picture if it has an unbound back. You really can't see it...top bound perhaps? I think it is exactly what the OP says, a red F4 with Handel tuners.

[brent1308]

Do you have the original photo shown in the first pic? It may be useful to take it to a professional photoshop and have it scanned in much higher resolution.

[hank]

Why would they side bind the top and top bind the back?

[Capt. E]

Why would they side bind the top and top bind the back?

Yeah, that would be stupid and never seen.

I agree that in the photo you really can't see any binding on the back...so I guess it could be an F2 with an upgraded peg-head. Anybody seen anything like that in person?

[hank]

I looked through Dan's Mandolin Archives hoping to stumble on to a similar configuration without any success. If it in fact has no back binding it is very different and distinguishable for that feature alone. The red case lining alone not so much but the two together would be a slam dunk.

[lklose]

Right click the picture and open in a new window and it has enough resolution to show that it may have Handel tuners (or a ring of dirt or shadow on each button<G>) and an original pickguard and clamp--click on the picture and it'll zoom pretty large. The tuners look more "Handel" with less resolution than more. It also appears to have a double torch on the headstock (pre-truss rod) although the light isn't that good. Again, the light is poor but it appears the fretboard is bound. F4 if all this is true. I don't see any evidence that shows whether the back is bound or not. Not enough side showing to tell. What shows of the bridge base looks like Loar era, but comparison with an original should settle that.

Maybe it went back for repair at some point.

Fun exercise!

Larry

[Bill Halsey]

Definitely an F-4. Those bindings were sometimes scraped well below the level of the wood rim, but there's just a hint of back binding as it crosses the black stripe on the player's shirt. Besides, the points are bound and the scroll cutout has binding on both sides. All that, plus the bound flowerpot headstock, seal the deal.

The visible color patterns in the (larger size) fingerrest, and the color & reflectivity patterns of the headstock inlay taken together would be unique to this instrument, as would the proximity of the various elements of the inlays to each other and to the tuner posts.

By the shadow angles, this appears to have been a flash-illuminated photo. It would not be much of a stretch to roughly calculate the light source angle and the viewing angle of the instrument. Thus, with a single light source (a flashlight), a moment's evaluation of any prospective instrument could tell a lot, with photo in hand.

Also, even though the 12th fret is often north of the cross-binding under it (as on this one), if an instrument lacked this feature, it could be a deal-breaker.

Very best of fortune to you on your intriguing search!

[Bernie Daniel]

Well 1989 is a long time ago -- we finished a big addition on our house in July of that year and those rooms have already been re-finished! Time flies :)

One thing not mentioned what is the age of the photo in the first post. Is that the OP holding it or his father. Just wondering if the OP has every personally handled the mandolin so the question of Handel tuners or not has come up. The OP actually suggests that it indeed does have them. Has that point been "settled"?

It appears that the OP has been silent since the initial post?

[terzinator]

here's the OP's photo full size, if it works...
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=105382&d=1346706969

[afranken]

Wow! What a community here! I'm sorry I have been silent, I received no email notification regarding activity of my thread. I honestly assumed there would be no responses. So, thank you everyone!

The man in the photograph is my father, so I have never actually touched this mandolin. My parents claim that this instrument was pristine, including the case. They sent it with my grandparents, who set up a booth at Renningers. My parents told them to sell it for no less than $900. We think it probably sold from anywhere between $700-900. With this said, I don't believe there would be any further record at Renningers.

My parents said that within the case, there was a Gibson Brochure. My father thinks that this brochure advertised a "fancier" model, which he described as having fancier fretboard inlays than the standard dot. I told him that the F4 should have been the fanciest - to my knowledge.

The picture looks to have side binding, so I assume that there is back binding. My father does not remember for sure. My father is going to try and scan the picture at a higher resolution.

Recently, I saw the "closest" similar mandolin on the mandolincafe.com classified. Steve Hess, from Hawaii, has one that looked the part and had a OHSC with red lining. He said he thought he bought it in Georgia. Most I have seen come up for sale have purple lining, etc. It is Steve who said that the bridge on my great-grandfather's looked like an adjustable (non-original loar era). So, this differed from the one he is selling, which has the original fixed. He also said the case handle had been replaced. My parents seemed to think that the case was in excellent condition, at the time, so I believe the case handle was in tact (again, at the time).

Thanks again everyone, the activity, expertise, and insight give me hope.
Alex

[afranken]

Here is another pic, less resolution, but shows more of the case.
105450

[afranken]

Here are the highest resolution scans of the mandolin and the case that my father could do.
105453105454

[mando on the side]

Alex,

I thought I recognized that name; This is Ed, I'm a friend of your sister and hung out with her in high school. Just thought I'd wish you good luck in your hunt and I'll keep my eye out as well for this instrument. I'm in Carmel and if you ever want to jam let me know!

Ed

[Scott Tichenor]

Wow! What a community here! I'm sorry I have been silent, I received no email notification regarding activity of my thread. I honestly assumed there would be no responses. So, thank you everyone!

You need to manually subscribe to threads at the top of the page under Thread Tools.

[FL Dawg]

What's in the other case on the table? That looks like a 30's Geib with butterfly hinges.

[mrmando]

Any chance that it would have the tortoise binding on the back, instead of ivoroid?

[john.m]

CSI: Mandolin Cafe.

[Charles Johnson]

Stock mid teens F4, probably 1915 or 1916. Has the guard with the plastic arm but does not appear to have the big bridge cutout. Handel tuners so its 1917 or earlier. Looks like straight string posts with no ball on the top, again at least 1915-1916. Looks like a newer adjustable bridge (a common upgrade) as it does not appear to have the original one piece. Uniform red top finish, not a true sunburst, again indicating the mid teens. The red lined case is mid 20s, but this is a easy switch especially if you originally bought the canvas case.

[Charles Johnson]

Any chance that it would have the tortoise binding on the back, instead of ivoroid?
I've never seen a F4 or F2 with tortoise back binding. Knowing Gibson, it could exist I suppose, or could have been repaired with tortoise, but either would be highly unusual. This was the height of the mandolin era, and F4s were high end expensive instruments; Gibson would have used their best on these.

[Cousin Dave]

Just a thought here, but my guess is that another potential identifier would be a glued-down bridge. Note that the bridge is upright and in the right position without any strings on.

[Jim Garber]

Just a thought here, but my guess is that another potential identifier would be a glued-down bridge. Note that the bridge is upright and in the right position without any strings on.

Hmmm... once again it is hard to tell from the one photo, but it looks to me that there are strings on it -- there seem to be dark lines on the nut in the photo.

[afranken]

What's in the other case on the table? That looks like a 30's Geib with butterfly hinges.

The other case contained a Gibson guitar (model unknown) of the same vintage. It had a crack in the back and was sold separately, in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

[afranken]

Hmmm... once again it is hard to tell from the one photo, but it looks to me that there are strings on it -- there seem to be dark lines on the nut in the photo.

It had looked to me that the photo was taken w/o strings on it. However, my father believes that there were strings on it at the time of the photo. This may also settle the "glued down bridge" theory - which was a good thought.

[afranken]

My parents said that within the case, there was a Gibson Brochure. My father thinks that this brochure advertised a "fancier" model, which he described as having fancier fretboard inlays than the standard dot. I told him that the F4 should have been the fanciest - to my knowledge.


So, a gentleman replied to my classified ad with the following note regarding a "fancier" fretboard inlay.

Hi Alex. I'm in the Uk. The only thing that I can add concerns the advert for the "fancier" model with more inlays. Gibson did a heavily inlaid model maybe up until 1913 or so. The neck had a very fancy inlay and they did this again in the 1970s.

This makes me think that the mandolin you are trying to trace may be 1913 or 1914 because I don't think they did the fancy ones after that.

hope this helps

regards

Jimmy Powells
UK

I reviewed mandolinarchive.com a bit more. It looks like there is note of some 1914 F4's with "red finish" but no images - like http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/16713
Has anyone seen a red finish 1914 F4?

There is a 1915 with "red burst" which looks similar, though Charles Johnson seemed to think my mandolin did not have the "burst" but rather a uniform red finish. However, this one also has a red lined case. Could they have made the red-lined case prior to the 1920s like Charles suggested?
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/22227

Anyone have thoughts on the Gibson brochure fancy fretboard inlay theory from Jimmy? Charles seemed to think 1915-1916 and I'm just curious if it could have been earlier, say 1914 - as Jimmy theorized.

[FL Dawg]

The other case contained a Gibson guitar (model unknown) of the same vintage. It had a crack in the back and was sold separately, in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

Any pictures of it? I hope it wasn't a Nick Lucas Special, that case looks pretty deep.

[lenf12]

In search of my great grandfather's mandolin. My parents sold it at a Florida antique market called Renningers, somewhere around June 1989. Unfortunately, all I have is a pic (no serial #). Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 and my parents and I wish we could get it back, especially since I've started playing mandolin.

Hi Alex,

I've been following this thread and your ads with great interest and I wish you every success in locating this mandolin. Since you placed your ad, it seems a couple of likely similar mandolins have popped up in the classifieds. I am curious however what you'll do if you can't positively identify any suspected candidates or if someone comes forward with "the" mandolin but doesn't want to part with it. Curious and good luck with your search.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[mrmando]

Yes, some earlier Gibsons had fancier fretboard inlays, but dots like these were standard by the mid-teens. If there was a brochure in the case showing a mandolin with fancier inlays, the brochure was likely several years older than this mandolin.

Looks to me like there is one A string on the mandolin in the photo -- there's definitely a line from the second A tuner down to the nut. That would be enough to hold a floating bridge in place for a photo. I doubt it is fully strung; G strings in particular should be heavy enough to show up even at this resolution.

[Bill Halsey]

Here's a pixel-enlarged crop of the headstock -- open it and take a good look:

105506

I'm having a hard time accepting the Handel tuner theory. Not sure what's going on with the resolution on the original photo (assume it's a film print) -- maybe a problem with the emulsion? Anyway, if the negative is still available, perhaps a hi-res scan or a new enlargement directly from that could be of some help.

I, too, was wondering what happened to the strings... again, perhaps something with the red dye of the print bleeding across the string image. However, I do barely detect strings crossing the nut. After all, the guy is holding a pick. :)

There are a few compelling features of this mandolin that point me to the post-Handel era, i.e. after 1918. These tuner knobs are generally the same color and reflectivity of many of the later pre-Loar Gibbies. As fuzzy as the enlargement is, I'm not seeing anything like Handel inlaid tuner knobs. The string posts are the later "top hat" design, but then I've seen those from as early as 1915. Also, is that a chip out of the second E tuner knob (another identifying feature)?

The logo inlay may just display a "closed-o", which seems to appear occasionally in 1921, on some of the pre-trussrod F-4s.

Of course, the bridge would be from after the early 1921 transitional era, i.e., the final version with a broader base with a patent date & narrower top to match the saddle, which could possibly have just squeaked in on a pre-trussrod F-4 (I have one of those on a 1921 pre-rod A-4 that appears to be original factory fit-up work, not a replacement).

However, even though it's the later style fingerrest without the bridge cutout, it certainly appears to have the older celluloid support rod attached by two screws to the side clamp.

I think the red case lining is not an indicator, as those go back to at least as early as 1911.

All in all, it seems most likely to me that this is a late 'teens F-4 with a replacement bridge.

[Jim Garber]

Wow, impressive triviata there, Bill. You know your stuff. Thanks for analysis.

BTW Alex, I assume that you and/or your folks are prepared to pay something like 7 times what you sold that for originally, should ypou actually find that one.

[hank]

I'm glad you guys who really know these old Gibsons with better resolution available than us viewing with IPads have cleared up some of our earlier missteps but the further this goes the identifying differences are very few. Let's see we have the approximate year and we may have a chipped E tuner button of non Handel buttons, the inlay spacing and colors on the headstock and the few particulars of the finger rest and bridge. To muddy the water even more a lot can change about this mandolins appearance since it was sold in 1989. I'm afraid it appears this needle is the color of straw that you are searching for.

[afranken]

My mother has a box of negatives for all the film prints but she is missing this one - she figures her folks took the picture. So, we are trying to track that down. Maybe there could be another photo - I'm hoping but not counting on.

The evidence of Will Millen's play seems to be in the 1920's. I'm working on obtaining scans of a couple of "Ragpickers" programs we have - not that it will lead to much - more just for historical sake. Dates on these are 1923 and 1924, I believe.
I'm attaching the two scans I've received.
One is a picture of the "Millen brothers". Will is on the left, unfortunately not playing his mandolin. Jim Millen on the right. My mother seems to think this was taken in the teens in Clarinda, IA.
The Red Oak Sun newspaper ad had a date on the back of April 23, 1920. This seems to indicate that the Red Oak, IA "Benedict Piano Co" hired Will Millen to demonstrate Gibson mandolins...?
It appears that most of our evidence points to mandolin playing in the early twenties - so far...
Maybe this could complement the post-handel theory...

Anyway, I thought these were pretty cool.

105588105589

[Bill Halsey]

Pretty cool indeed, Alex! Thank you for this. If Will Millen were to have been an AR/PR man representing Gibson, so much more the likelihood his F-4 should have been updated with the latest (adjustable) bridge. Now we're getting somewhere!

If the F-4 was received as a demo sample, normal bookkeeping protocol would suggest that Millen's name may appear on documentation as having received the demo instrument with its model and serial number recorded, either by Gibson, or more likely by the Benedict Piano Co. if they furnished the instrument to Millen. However, if Millen purchased it outright, that's another matter.

I don't see Millen's name in Spann's book. However, Joe may be able to elucidate how second-tier reps were employed and what documentation may exist. All this is, of course, in pursuit of the all-important serial number of the F-4 you wish to find.

[afranken]

Thought I would update. We still haven't found the negative for the picture. With that said, my family did come to the realization that it could be possible that the mandolin was sold at the Centreville antique market in Michigan, rather than Renningers in Florida. I may see if I can change the title of this thread to reflect that.

[Jim Garber]

Best of luck, Alex. It is still a needle in the haystack esp without a serial number. Someone on the Cafe mightn even have this mandolin and may not know it.