Experienced guitar player - mandolin noob; lots of questions

[dabizz]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing guitar for approximately ten years and have been itching to dive into the mandolin for a while now. The mandolin driven song that has always captivated me and subsequently led me to want to own one for myself was none other than 'Losing My Religion' by R.E.M.; which, is, in my opinion an absolute masterpiece...a beautiful work of art. I have finally managed to come up with the resources necessary to purchase one, and have settled for a pawn shop buy for the time being. For some absurd reason, I figured due to my background with the guitar I would have no problem picking up the mandolin since they are so similar in structure. Nope, I was wrong...I'm already running into road blocks, but I know my determination will eventually pay off.

First of all, holy moly, the thing is incredibly hard to fret. I am managing to adjust to the extra amount of pressure that is required to play cleanly, but can tell that I have a long road ahead as me as far as becoming proficient at it is concerned. I have been reading here and on various other websites that it is best to get a new mandolin "set up". What all would that entail? My first observation of my mandolin is that the action appears to be to high causing an un-necessary amount of difficulty in the fretting department. This is in-spite of the fact that the bridge is lowered as far down as it will go. How can this be resolved given that the bridge is as far down as it can possibly be? I'll be taking the mandolin into a local music shop on Monday and have them take a look at it.

Another thing, How would you experienced mandolinists suggest playing this chord and what is it called:

0
2
2
2

This chord is presenting many issues for me. For one, the frets are so small that there is not enough space for me to squeeze three of my fingers in there to get a clean tone. I tried to bring my thumb from the back of the neck but that can take too much time and I'm still finding it difficult to apply the appropriate pressure to get a clean sounding tone. The only other option I see left is to somehow bar the three notes, yet, that is difficult to do without accidentally applying some pressure to that open string. I'm hoping getting the action adjusted will resolve this issue.

Ok, maybe I didn't have as many questions as I might have led you to believe. Those are my two primary concerns as of now, but I know there will be more to come.

Thanks. :mandosmiley:

[Barry Wilson]

on the main cafe page there is a chord chart you can peruse. very helpful

for setup get Robster's eBook on this forum

welcome. also look at youtube videos. or search for mike marshall's video on holding the mandolin. angle is so important with these things

[allenhopkins]

1. Guitarists taking up mandolin often report initial difficulty in fretting. Mandolin strings are higher tension, and, of course, doubled, and with the smaller neck and closer-spaced frets, playing may seem "a lot more work." A pro set-up is a good idea; just cranking the bridge down to the max (or the "min") may not be the solution. The nut may be too high, the neck improperly pitched or with too much "relief" curvature (usually can be adjusted with the truss rod, assuming your instrument has a functional one). The main components of a good set-up are bridge height, bridge location, nut height and proper slotting, neck relief, and checking frets for height. Pawn shops know from nothing about such things; your "local music shop" may well be the answer -- if they have a repair tech that knows about mandolins. They aren't "little guitars," and some music dealers don't see many of them. If you have the urge to try your own set-up, Cafe member Rob Meldrum ("robster") offers a free e-book on the subject to Cafe members. This thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?88286-Mandolin-setup-by-Rob-Meldrum&highlight=meldrum) discusses using his manual.

2. Assuming that the "0" in your diagram is the first string, you have E/B/E/A (A5/E chord? Dunno…). Perhaps this is from Losing My Religion tablature? Whatever; anyway, you probably are going to have to fret two string courses with a single fingertip, which will be much more do-able when you get the instrument properly set up. That's the upside of a narrower neck and closer-spaced frets. Wouldn't plan on bringing the thumb around the neck to get the 4th string course. You can also experiment with getting some of the notes on different frets -- for example, get the A from an open 2nd string, and a B from a 4th string at the 4th fret.

Set-up first. If, as an experienced guitarist, you're having that kind of difficulty fretting the mandolin, it's almost certainly not set up properly. As a bazillion Cafe threads have emphasized, the most important think in learning mandolin is a proper set-up.

[Ed Goist]

Hi! and welcome.

Your mandolin almost certainly needs the action at the nut lowered. This is done by having the nut slots properly re-cut so the strings are closer to the fretboard. This will be done as part of a good set-up. Here's a good overview of what is done during a quality set-up (http://www.folkmusician.com/mandolinsetup.asp).

The notes in your chord are A-E-B-E, so it is either an A chord with a suspended second, or an E chord with a suspended fourth. Also, since you already have an E on the D-string, I'd play this chord as 2-2-2-X, using a barre across the second fret and not playing the E-string.

[Barry Wilson]

That chord isn't in losing my religion...

http://youtu.be/ar_4Mo0EVm4

[stevedenver]

dabiz

try covering two strings with one fingertip
know too, that mando, unlike guitar , uses one finger for every two frets, ie in first position, the index would cover fret one and two, middle frets 3 and 4, etc
find the mike marshall video on how to hold a mando, just for a check up on your own technique

I too started from guitar, about 4 years ago
I found the transition intuitive, after playing guitar for about forty years, for some reason mando comes more easily-the fifths I think-I also started with a high end mando ,because I had a older one that was a misery to play-the old one was a gibby too


it is a different instrument technique and strength-wise.
it takes accuracy from careful practice to get those chords to ring as nicely as a guitar

some simple thoughts
first and foremost, often the difficulty is either a not so great mando, and or a terrible set up
search here for set up, there's a fellow you can contact who will email you set up information, and on the luthiers site, there is a link to stringing, set up and other things. Set up and intonation are as critical as having tires on the car-without them you are going to have a short and bumpy ride on mando-take this to heart and read them and if you need to, you may need a pro set up , and perhaps work on your bridge , or even a new one

without this , you will have more difficulty playing , less joy, and you mando may sound out of tune up the fretboard, etc. Mandos take a great more precision in set up than a guitar and have less margin for error

to give you an idea of how a mando can play, past the twelfth fret, my gibby fern, with flat wounds plays as easily as my fretless wonder Les Paul, my rigel A plays better than my strats -its all about set up and adjusting-its like constantly never playing below the 12th fret on a guitar

second, imho, allow yourself the comfort of getting your sea legs with light strings-they don't sound as nice, but, will be a stepping stone for a while. As you progress, you can make the jump up to mediums.

third , not a pleasant thing and many will disagree, but, decent mandos are typically about twice the cost of a comparable guitar
so for a Gibson/Martin/Taylor quality your like looking at about 2500 for a good a and 3-4K for an F-this was really hard for me to accept for a while

the other thing I would mention, and not lightly, is that in your enthusiasm , do not over work your hands and especially pinky. Allow yourself several months to slowly build the muscles and refine your technique so as not to strain your hand. I suggest beside learning tunes, is to use some grisman or other mando technique exercises

[multidon]

One thing I discovered about going to mandolin from both guitar and fiddle is that the touch is different. On fiddle you must push the string into firm contact with the fingerboard. On guitar I pretty much do the same thing, to make certain I get a clear ringing tone with no mush thunk or buzz. Mandolin touch is different. All you need to do is use enough pressure to make firm contact with the fret. You don't have to grind the string into the fretboard. Once I realized this I was able to play much faster with less effort. One music store manager told me he can always tell when a mandolin comes in for trade in from a guitar player who tried the mandolin but was not successful. They come in with a huge amount of fret wear. Big grooves on the first 5. We're talking like 10 years worth of fret wear in just a few months. He calls those players "grinders". I guess you don't have to be a guitarist to grind but it helps! Also don't keep your fingers at a right angle to the fret board like a guitar. Turn your wrist lightly to the left so your fingers point more in line with the fret board. As noted above, it is not like a little guitar. I like to think of it as a violin with frets.

Also as noted above by others set up is critical. It is doubtful you have one on a pawn shop mandolin. If you tell us where you are located one of us may be able to recommend a luthier to you. A proper set up will probably cost 100 dollars or more. You should evaluate whether this mandolin is worth the trouble. If it's a 50 dollar import I might be inclined to try the set up myself using Rob's book. If it's a more valuable instrument then maybe it's worth the bucks to get it professionally done.

If you find you do like the mandolin and inevitably you will want to move up be aware there are some brands known for making mandolins with guitar friendly specs. These manufacturers know many people come to the mandolin through guitar and they try to design instruments to help them. Wide nut, large frets, and radius fret board are all things to look for in a guitar friendly mandolin. Breedloves are famous for that, and additionally they have brand name recognition among guitarists. If they are too expensive for you they have just introduced an import line called the "crossover" series that is much more affordable. I think all Breedloves have the guitar friendly design. Some but not all Webers have it so be careful. Good luck!

[Ed Goist]

...snip...not a pleasant thing and many will disagree, but, decent mandos are typically about twice the cost of a comparable guitar so for a Gibson/Martin/Taylor quality your like looking at about 2500 for a good a and 3-4K for an F-this was really hard for me to accept for a while...snip...

I'll disagree with Steve here, but not for the reason expected...

We use this "a mandolin will cost about two times as much as a guitar for an instrument of comparable quality rule" a lot here on the Cafe, and frankly I think that's extremely conservative.

In my experience, the multiplier is more like three times, and maybe even more at the high end (For example, in my opinion, one would need to spend ~$10,000 to get a mandolin that is as much mandolin as a Martin HD-28 is guitar [$2700 street price]).

When one throws the F-style stipulation into the equation, the multiplier is definitely 3+X

[Randi Gormley]

Fixing the nut slots will lower your strings, but you can also swap out the bridge. Not something you'd think about as a guitarist. My strad's neck is set at a bad angle (bad reset), so my luthier built me a lower, solid bridge to replace my adjustable in order to get the strings closer to where they should be. Just another option.
Why not post a picture of your mandolin? I'm always interested in what people can pick up at a pawn shop, considering some of the less-than-optimal mandolins I've seen at big box music stores.

[tgroleau]

I played guitar for over 30 years when I started the mandolin. Yes, the strings tension was different and my callouses weren't exactly in the right spots, but you get used to that.

One thing that helped me wrap my brain around mandolin's tuning was to think about the mandolin as "upside down" from a guitar. The octaves are backwards, but upside-down guitar fingering works for many chords.

For example, imagine that your guitar doesn't have the high B or E strings. How would you play an open G chord with the remaining four strings? Now look at how you play an open G on the mandolin 3 - 2 - 0 - 0 (high string to low string). It's upside down from the guitar.

As someone suggested, there are lots of chord sheets available here and elsewhere and you should use them but the "upside down" thinking allowed me use my guitar frame of reference to see how chords progressions fit together on the mandolin.

Tom

[stevedenver]

I'll disagree with Steve here, but not for the reason expected...

We use this "a mandolin will cost about two times as much as a guitar for an instrument of comparable quality rule" a lot here on the Cafe, and frankly I think that's extremely conservative.

In my experience, the multiplier is more like three times, and maybe even more at the high end (For example, in my opinion, one would need to spend ~$10,000 to get a mandolin that is as much mandolin as a Martin HD-28 is guitar [$2700 street price]).

When one throws the F-style stipulation into the equation, the multiplier is definitely 3+X

ed I agree , I just didn't want to give OP a heart attack- I actually think youre right on

[JeffD]

One thing that helped me wrap my brain around mandolin's tuning was to think about the mandolin as "upside down" from a guitar. The octaves are backwards, but upside-down guitar fingering works for many chords.


This is an accurate analogy, because the guitar being tuned in fourths (mostly) and the mandolin in fifths, and must have some usefulness in getting started, but once started I think it would get in the way. There are so many differences between mandolin and guitar, I wonder if it isn't easier to just be a beginner again and treat it like a whole new instrument. Diatonic fingering on the mandolin versus chromatic fingering on the guitar has been the most problematical for me (going the other way - a mandolin player picking up a guitar). I found playing melody on the guitar so difficult at first that it made sense to me to use it exclusively as a chord instrument.

The mandolin layout has so many really convenient symmetries - that one odd interval on the guitar really gave me heartburn. :)

Its all good. However you get into it, the point is that once you are into it, try and look at the mandolin for what it is uniquely and what it can do that cannot be done elsewhere. Eventually you will transcend the idea of a small upside down guitar with double strings.

[TheBlindBard]

What do you mean by diatonic and chromatic fingering?

[stevedenver]

I think

diatonic references two frets per finger position on the mandolin, index covers frets one and two, middle covers frets three and four, and so on
and chromatic on guitar uses one finger for each fret, ie index at fret one, middle at fret two, ring at fret three, pinky for frets four and five and beyond

im sure jeff will expand

[Markus]

Steve explained it well. On guitar you play one fret per finger, while on mandolin each finger covers two frets. Until you get each instrument fretting right, melodic playing is chaotic and clean speed is far harder than with technique suited for that fretboard.

While most guitarists (self included) who switch to mandolin start out thinking of it as a little guitar, approaching the scale as 'upside down guitar' .... you want to do your best to have two different techniques and thinking, as they have different voices and have different roles to play in a musical group.

Eventually you start to play mandolin not mini guitar, and oh what a difference it makes.

[JeffD]

What do you mean by diatonic and chromatic fingering?

Mandolin is diatonic fingering, each finger covers two frets, or when going up the scale its one finger for each note of the scale.

Guitar is chromatic fingering, meaning basically one fret per finger, or, when going up the scale you skip fingers as you skip over the sharps and flats.

There are exceptions and expedients of course.

Oh duh, its already been explained. Well there you go.

[allenhopkins]

I understand the difference between fingering patterns on mandolin and guitar, with the mandolin's shorter scale, wider tuning intervals, and more closely spaced frets.

However, I don't know why using one finger to cover two adjacent frets is termed "diatonic." As I understand the definition of the word, it refers to musical scales that don't include all the "twelve tones" of the octave -- all the "sharps and flats" -- sorta like playing only the white keys of a piano.

"Diatonic" instruments, in my experience, such as the 10-hole harmonica, button accordion, or traditional mountain dulcimer, don't have all the possible notes, but only the ones that fit in certain scales and chords. You can see this on the old dulcimers, with their unevenly-spaced fretboards. Same is true of many "folk" harps, whistles, open-hole flutes, etc.

By this definition, the mandolin's a chromatic instrument, since its fretboard includes all the notes in its range. So why is using one fretting finger on two adjacent frets "diatonic"? You can play every note in the 12-tone scale, regardless of which finger falls on which fret.

Am I missing something?

[JeffD]

However, I don't know why using one finger to cover two adjacent frets is termed "diatonic." As I understand the definition of the word, it refers to musical scales that don't include all the "twelve tones" of the octave -- all the "sharps and flats" -- sorta like playing only the white keys of a piano.?

I asked a very similar question and here is the answer I got. You are correct about diatonic and chromatic instruments. A chromatic instrument has every note, while a diatonic will have a major scale or some such, but not every note. Both a guitar and a mandolin are chromatic instruments, but a dulcimer may not be. But that is the instrument.

Diatonic fingering means that play up the neck each finger in succession, if you move up diatonically as on a mandolin, you will have a scale, (mostly). Chromatic fingering, as in guitar, you move up one finger at a time, you will have all 12 tones.

Its a distinction in the playing of a fretted instrument, not in the type of instrument you are playing.

With chromatic fingering, you would skip a finger to play a scale.