Thile Bach CD has Landed

[tablaninja]

105060

I found this on my door step when I got home today. Loving it so far! It's been many years since I've anticipated a recording this much. As much as I enjoy the sound of a classical mandolin, it's very refreshing to hear these pieces played on what I assume is a Lloyd Loar. Wow, loving this!

[Brandon Flynn]

Got mine today. Listened to the first Sonata and Partita so far. May not have time for the other Sonata today. Loving it, and like you, been waiting a long time for this recording.

[Bigtuna]

Listened to it this morning while out for a walk and was really impressed. I'm sure it will get better everytime I revisit it.

[mandolino maximus]

Just listened to a bit of Lichtenberg and Avitel to keep my balance. Great, great stuff. And so is this. Really can't wait for the concert in October now. Great sound work on the recording as well by Meyer. Digging the liner note fountain photo too.

An official welcome to another new world for Thile and his Annabelle Lee. I should probably go see he and Daves play in the Blue Ridge Mountains on the Saturday before the Tuesday Bach concert in Evanston. That would make for a total mind blow.

(The Café has this elsewhere, but ....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_n3wHljJQ4M

[Traveling Tracks]

Got it! (and the signed artwork!!)
Can't wait to see this live in the fall.

[Traveling Tracks]

Okay.....track 8....double:presto.....my brain just melted.

[M.Marmot]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

[greg_tsam]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I think not many. What's your point?

[tmsweeney]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

Actually I originally purchased the violin version of all 6 suites by Hungarian violinist Andre Kiss to help learn them
recently I purchased Sonatas and Partitas on solo mandolin by Shmuel Elbaz- and found I wasn't that far off on the ones I had been studying ( mostly Sonata #4)

was originally inspired by Mike Marshall's solo interpretations of various sonatas from various recordings

so YES

I haven't got a hold of Thile's recording - I think he is doing a solo performance at the college of St Rose in Albany in fall- might check that out.

[mandolino maximus]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I don't own any Bach violin or mandolin except for this. I did however get a musical education in a respected university School of Music that included a fair amount of baroque sans any mention of mandolin. Thank God for Bill Monroe and Jethro. I'm thinking this cuts both ways and a few more classical "long hairs' will be tempted to broaden their horizons as well.

[Marc Berman]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I have the Partitas and Sonatas on violin.

[jaycat]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I'm not a huge Bach fan but will probably pick this up. I'd rather hear a transcription of the late Beethoven piano sonatas but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[Ken_P]

I already own 4 or 5 different versions of the Sonatas and Partitas, so this is just one more, albeit with a bit more excitement than usual.


I'd rather hear a transcription of the late Beethoven piano sonatas but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

I'm with you on the Beethoven. It's some of my all time favorite music, but I honestly don't know that even if you could, that it would work on a group of mandolin family instruments. I'd love to be proved wrong one day, if someone is crazy enough to try it!

[OldSausage]

I already own a fiddle version too. I wouldn't buy any of the other mandolin versions because I really don't enjoy the tone of the mandolinists on any of them. I mean, they play wonderfully, but sound like they're picking a Big Muddy or something, it's crazy (Nothing against Big Muddy mandolins here, I just mean it doesn't seem appropriate for the level and style of the performance to my poor ears). But Chris sounds great, so I will be forking over the cash for this.

[Perry]

Got it! (and the signed artwork!!)
Can't wait to see this live in the fall.

Just got my mail today....so have not listened yet BUT I don't see where the artwork is signed? I did get the print but it does not seem to be signed.

Can someone explain where the signature is?

Thanks

[danielpatrick]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I probably would not have purchased the sonatas and partitas although I did purchase the Cello Suites by Yo Yo Ma after I saw Master and Commander.

I also probably would have never bought a mandolin had I not heard "Can't Stop Now" while I was on hold with a guitar shop. I heard Sam Bush bought the New Grass Revival hits CD and that put me on the path I'm on now.

[Dagger Gordon]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

A fair enough question, but you know - this is Mandolin Cafe. We're meant to be interested in the mandolin.

[Brandon Flynn]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I have purchased more than one recording of these pieces on violin. Heard a few movements here and there on other instruments as well. But I'm a Bach lover, especially of his chamber music.

Also, Beethoven's sonatina for mandolin is an insult to our instrument in my opinion (might be exaggerating a bit...but still, quite lame).

[Cecily_Mandoliner]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?
Interesting questions. I listened to the 1970 Jascha Heifetz recording of Bach's unaccompanied Chaconne from the Partita No. 2 in D minor, from my dad's record collection and much, much later, I purchased a double-CD of Bach sonatas and partitas on the violin. I never got the nerve to try Bach on my violin.
I am going to look for Thile's recording. When I first started my mandolin lessons, I showed a book of classical music to my teacher, and she directed me to YouTube to hear how these should/could sound. The first one I found was Chris Thile at the Grey Fox in 2011, playing Gigue from Bach's D minor Partita, and my jaw dropped. I want to hear more Bach... And, I'm finally trying it on my mandolin. Slowly... very slowly.

[M.Marmot]

I think not many. What's your point?

No point - no agenda - I just got those questions.

I simply wondering how many people here might venture into musical genres they normally would not try simply through their respect for Mr. Thile's playing.

I don't even know why i asked - i really was just curious.

[M.Marmot]

Actually I originally purchased the violin version of all 6 suites by Hungarian violinist Andre Kiss to help learn them
recently I purchased Sonatas and Partitas on solo mandolin by Shmuel Elbaz- and found I wasn't that far off on the ones I had been studying ( mostly Sonata #4)

was originally inspired by Mike Marshall's solo interpretations of various sonatas from various recordings

so YES

I haven't got a hold of Thile's recording - I think he is doing a solo performance at the college of St Rose in Albany in fall- might check that out.

I'd imagine it would be a treat if you can attend.

I can't imagine what it would be like to learn and play these pieces on both violin and mandolin. That must be some experience.

[Traveling Tracks]

Just for fun......anyone know for certain which Feb. 18th Loar Thile played on this Bach recording?
My guess is the "new" one #75318 (which he acquired from Mandolin Brothers late Sept./early October of 2012 after winning the "genius grant") Again, that's my guess based on two things....one, the fact that he was probably very inspired by his recent purchase. (He bought it in the fall and his Bach S&P vol. 1 was recorded in January 2013....giving him enough time for it to be worked on and set-up to his liking. And two: his "first" Loar #75316 definitely has a silver tailpiece cover and inside the new Bach album liner notes there is the "fountain" picture and it appears the "new" Loar could have a gold tailpiece...not quite sure though as it could just be the light hitting it.

[M.Marmot]

I don't own any Bach violin or mandolin except for this. I did however get a musical education in a respected university School of Music that included a fair amount of baroque sans any mention of mandolin. Thank God for Bill Monroe and Jethro. I'm thinking this cuts both ways and a few more classical "long hairs' will be tempted to broaden their horizons as well.

I think so too - that was one of my spurs for asking my question - really, i think that Mr Thile's genre bounding is doing the mandolin such a great service, really demonstrating its versatility as an instrument.

[Traveling Tracks]

OK, just searched and found the original Mandolin Brothers ad for Loar #75318 and at least in those photos it had a silver tailpiece cover.....so it must have just been the way the light was reflected in the fountain photo.

[Dave Gumbart]

Can someone explain where the signature is?

I think the offer stated that the first 500 (or some such number) would be signed. So, both you and me stand at 501 and beyond, methinks.

[Brandon Flynn]

OK, just searched and found the original Mandolin Brothers ad for Loar #75318 and at least in those photos it had a silver tailpiece cover.....so it must have just been the way the light was reflected in the fountain photo.

He hasn't had that one as long has he? It definitely could have been set up in time, but would it have been broken in well sound wise? He's been playing the other for a while now.

[M.Marmot]

I'm not a huge Bach fan but will probably pick this up. I'd rather hear a transcription of the late Beethoven piano sonatas but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

It would have been one of my minor gripes with this project - i mean, compared with the breadth of material on Modern Mandolin Quartet's 'Americana' then an album of Bach is such a safe bet - but that'd be the gripe of someone quite spoiled for music.

I do hope though that if this album has legs - and makes a tidy profit - that there would be another instalment on another classical composer or two.

[M.Marmot]

I probably would not have purchased the sonatas and partitas although I did purchase the Cello Suites by Yo Yo Ma after I saw Master and Commander.

I also probably would have never bought a mandolin had I not heard "Can't Stop Now" while I was on hold with a guitar shop. I heard Sam Bush bought the New Grass Revival hits CD and that put me on the path I'm on now.

I think a lot of peoples introduction to Bach might have been through television or movies - for me it would probably have been the music for certain cigar commercials. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4FhPxJ6q8

The first Bach piece that really affected me though was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBeXF_lnj_M 'Erbarme dich, mein Gott' from St Matthieu's Passion - it was on a Bach arias and chorales collection i got when starting to explore classical music - i was'nt expecting it, it just broke my heart, it still does.

I like your story of your introduction to mandolin - very unique

[M.Marmot]

A fair enough question, but you know - this is Mandolin Cafe. We're meant to be interested in the mandolin.

Yikes - i did'nt realise it was obligatory!:))

I was asking because i know, from my own experience, that the addition of mandolin on most any genre of music will spark my curiosity. Mandolin content has been my introduction to many bands and even genres of music so, again i was curious to see if this was also a factor for some people when choosing to buy this album.

[M.Marmot]

Interesting questions. I listened to the 1970 Jascha Heifetz recording of Bach's unaccompanied Chaconne from the Partita No. 2 in D minor, from my dad's record collection and much, much later, I purchased a double-CD of Bach sonatas and partitas on the violin. I never got the nerve to try Bach on my violin.
I am going to look for Thile's recording. When I first started my mandolin lessons, I showed a book of classical music to my teacher, and she directed me to YouTube to hear how these should/could sound. The first one I found was Chris Thile at the Grey Fox in 2011, playing Gigue from Bach's D minor Partita, and my jaw dropped. I want to hear more Bach... And, I'm finally trying it on my mandolin. Slowly... very slowly.

I don't have much experience playing Bach pieces - but i imagine that even slowly it can be quite rewarding.

[Wolfboy]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

FWIW, I count thirteen in my collection, although only eleven are the complete cycle...

[Traveling Tracks]

UKU9pWWO-cA
new Thile video...just posted today

[tmsweeney]

the thing with me about Bach , especially the violin sonatas and partitas is they are like kata to a marshal arts practitioner.
Kata ( don't know if i am spelling it right) is when you see the person doing the moves alone - usually slower than in a sparing match
My left hand was injured badly last year and I could not play for almost 6 weeks, even then it was painful starting up again.
So I worked on simple fiddle tunes just to get my fingers familiar again - but to really refresh my "musical spirit" I went back to the sonatas an partitas. I played them slow and had forgotten anything I memorized so reading music again was helpful as well.
for the most part Bach's music for solo pieces can be applied to almost any chromatic instrument, the surprising twists and turns even in pieces I am very familiar with never cease to delight me.
I was first introduced to Bach while studying classical guitar - his lute suites - while not really suited to mandolin- really inspired me and got me interested in all sorts of music I had never even thought about listening to, as we can clearly see - I am not alone.

[bratsche]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I've got violin (baroque and modern) versions, as well as a viola and a mandolin recording. I haven't got this one, though, because I'm a cheapskate and never, ever buy new CDs. If I get it at all, it will have to find its way to a bargain bin or cheap eBay sale first. I can wait.... I've waited for many before this.

bratsche

[Dagger Gordon]

UKU9pWWO-cA
new Thile video...just posted today

His left knee always seems to be in the way of seeing his left hand!

I love watching how his left hand always seems to glide effortlessly all over the neck - especially on the lower strings. Inspiring.

[greg_tsam]

I think a lot of peoples introduction to Bach might have been through television or movies - for me it would probably have been the music for certain cigar commercials. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4FhPxJ6q8

The first Bach piece that really affected me though was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBeXF_lnj_M 'Erbarme dich, mein Gott' from St Matthieu's Passion - it was on a Bach arias and chorales collection i got when starting to explore classical music - i was'nt expecting it, it just broke my heart, it still does.

I like your story of your introduction to mandolin - very unique

Looney Tunes Cartoons. Bugs Bunny and Friends always had great music. When I got older I started hearing classical music and saying "Hey, that's the Bugs Bunny music!"

[Paul Busman]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?
I do own them. The solo cello works too. They're monumental works of the Baroque.

[Paul Busman]

Actually I originally purchased the violin version of all 6 suites by Hungarian violinist Andre Kiss to help learn them
recently I purchased Sonatas and Partitas on solo mandolin by Shmuel Elbaz- and found I wasn't that far off on the ones I had been studying ( mostly Sonata #4)

was originally inspired by Mike Marshall's solo interpretations of various sonatas from various recordings

so YES

I haven't got a hold of Thile's recording - I think he is doing a solo performance at the college of St Rose in Albany in fall- might check that out.

Do you have any info on that St. Rose gig? Please post it here!

[tmsweeney]

It's on Chris's web page

SUNDAY 27 OCTOBER 2013
Chris Thile live
Chris Thile
Massry Center for the Arts at the College of Saint Rose
Albany, NY, US

[Sterling]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I have at least three different recordings on modern and baroque violins. I also have versions of them as trumpet studies that I practice along with the Bach Cello Suites.

[Jesse Harmon]

I may pick up some Bach violin recordings as a result of Thile's which just arrived. I grew up listening to an older sister playing Bach, Beethoven, etc on piano and later I played various Bach on classical guitar. Just reading, however slowly and painfully through any Bach is a rewarding experience. It's not the instrument or the genre that is always the consideration, its the growing amount of CD's I have acquired. I wish I could have a music room like I spotted in a Tim O'Brian video with CD's neatly in rows in bookcases, etc. Alas, some of my music is stored in my garage, basement, etc.

[Brandon Flynn]

I may pick up some Bach violin recordings as a result of Thile's which just arrived. I grew up listening to an older sister playing Bach, Beethoven, etc on piano and later I played various Bach on classical guitar. Just reading, however slowly and painfully through any Bach is a rewarding experience. It's not the instrument or the genre that is always the consideration, its the growing amount of CD's I have acquired. I wish I could have a music room like I spotted in a Tim O'Brian video with CD's neatly in rows in bookcases, etc. Alas, some of my music is stored in my garage, basement, etc.

Do yourself a favor and pick up a violin recording for sure! It really doesn't matter which one for your first, though of course people will tell you some are better than others for various reasons. While I like the sound of some movements on mandolin more, there are movements that just don't work the same on mandolin, no matter how well they are played. Of all Bach's writing involving violin, these are still my favorites. And Thile only recorded half, so the other half of the album would be new!

[tmsweeney]

Jess - that's what I like about Amazon cloud - they don't have a lot of stuff I had on vinyl - but still the selection is pretty good for folk BG and Classical -(surprised sometimes at the rare stuff they have as mp3 download - fairly cheap too) anything you buy from them they don't charge for storage and you can download as many times as you like to as many devices ( unlike ITunes)
you can also listen from any pc or smartphone anywhere ( as long as you can connect)
you can also upload your own mp3s, and they charge a reasonable annual fee for various storage allotments
so I still have a pile of Cds down stairs- but I rarely use them
just about all of my music is up the cloud

I have no financial interest in Amazon

[Jesse Harmon]

Thanks tm. I have been gradually getting acclimated to this lap-top--device technology. (gradually--picture my old arthritic dog going up some steep stairs) I do some of my best listening in the car driving and often make CD's of anything I get on i-tunes. I have some on Amazon cloud and haven't tried to burn a CD from them yet. Is that possible I wonder. I often burn my own collections of things I am working on in guitar and mandolin. Guess I still like the CD's however overpriced they are for the artwork and various information sometimes in the booklet. I still like the feel of something in my hands I have a kindle and an I-pad but still like the feel and look of a book. Like my old dog, I usually get where everyone else gets, just takes me a little longer.

[tmsweeney]

I hear ya - they sometimes have the book as PDF download but - It's not the same

also CD's do not use MP3 format so you would have to download -then convert to wav before creating the CD - so probably more of a pain than it is worth
I installed an MP3 player in my car - so I just load stuff on a thumb drive and we're off! ( takes less room in the car as well)

I imagine my grand kids will climb up on my lap and ask- "Grampy - tell us about the good old days of album cover art...."

[JeffD]

No point - no agenda - I just got those questions.

I simply wondering how many people here might venture into musical genres they normally would not try simply through their respect for Mr. Thile's playing.

I don't even know why i asked - i really was just curious.

I got into classical music as a kid, and Bach in particular, through Switched on Back, by Wendy (nee Walter) Carlos. I think the same way Thile and Nickel Creek got a whole lot of people into bluegrass, he is going to bring a whole lot of people into classical. Its a good thing.

I really do hope folks then spread out a bit explore others who have played Bach on mandolin for the last 200 years. Its a grand and wonderful thing.

[John Duncan]

the double presto... :disbelief:

[Ken_P]

the double presto... :disbelief:

I need to listen a few more times before I can comment on the whole thing, but this comment is pretty much sums it up for that movement :)

It's almost too fast to be musical, but I pretty much don't care because it's just so dazzling.

[tablaninja]

Well, they don't call it "double presto" for nothing! Yeah, I can't believe that's even possible!
He seems giddy about this CD release, as well he should be. So much so that he posted this earlier
105183
My buddy lives near there so I let him know. Wish I was there!
I simply cannot wait the see Thile's solo set in a few months. This CD is blowing my mind and I've been listening to Bach for 25 years.

[bratsche]

I love watching how his left hand always seems to glide effortlessly all over the neck - especially on the lower strings. Inspiring.

Effortless playing chops, true... but short on mental effort, IMO. I really don't find the way he performs this to be inspiring.

(BTW, I love how it's captioned on YouTube: "Singer-songwriter and mandolinist Chris Thile performs a song for the PBS NewsHour." LOL)

Anyway, I don't say this to be contrarian, but no matter the tempo, the pulse of this Presto movement should always be felt as 3 beats of 2 notes in each measure, as opposed to 2 beats of 3 notes. Stressing the 4th notes instead of the 3rd and 5th notes obscures the internal syncopated magic rhythm of the piece. (Listen to someone play it as written, and the difference is really striking!) You can hardly tell that Bach actually wrote the time signature as 3/8 from listening to Thile's rendition, except for a few too-short bits here and there, where I guess he finds it convenient to play it as written for a while, before lapsing back into the Irish jig sounding mode again. I really wish someone would point this out to him... (not me, as I don't play well enough for him to take my advice seriously... but someone should!)

Don't get me wrong, some violinists do this too, and I think the same thing when they do as well. It's lazy, because it's taking the "path of least resistance" with the notes.

bratsche

[emitfo]

Effortless playing chops, true... but short on mental effort, IMO. I really don't find the way he performs this to be inspiring.

(BTW, I love how it's captioned on YouTube: "Singer-songwriter and mandolinist Chris Thile performs a song for the PBS NewsHour." LOL)

Anyway, I don't say this to be contrarian, but no matter the tempo, the pulse of this Presto movement should always be felt as 3 beats of 2 notes in each measure, as opposed to 2 beats of 3 notes. Stressing the 4th notes instead of the 3rd and 5th notes obscures the internal syncopated magic rhythm of the piece. (Listen to someone play it as written, and the difference is really striking!) You can hardly tell that Bach actually wrote the time signature as 3/8 from listening to Thile's rendition, except for a few too-short bits here and there, where I guess he finds it convenient to play it as written for a while, before lapsing back into the Irish jig sounding mode again. I really wish someone would point this out to him... (not me, as I don't play well enough for him to take my advice seriously... but someone should!)

Don't get me wrong, some violinists do this too, and I think the same thing when they do as well. It's lazy, because it's taking the "path of least resistance" with the notes.

bratsche

Would you be so kind as to put up a youtube link that eloquently demonstrates this? I would appreciate it. Thank-you.

[Maddie Witler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgC46wq-Xs

[tablaninja]

Nice video!

[OldSausage]

Anyway, I don't say this to be contrarian, but no matter the tempo, the pulse of this Presto movement should always be felt as 3 beats of 2 notes in each measure, as opposed to 2 beats of 3 notes. Stressing the 4th notes instead of the 3rd and 5th notes obscures the internal syncopated magic rhythm of the piece.


I do find it sort of implausible that a musician of Chris's calibre isn't well aware of this, but has decided to do it this way because he wants to. No way to know without asking him.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I'm coming from the other POV, I know the work of Joe Brent, Avi Avital, Caterina Lichtenberg, Chris Acquavella, Mike Marshall... but I don't have anything of Thile's... maybe I'll get this...

[Brandon Flynn]

[/QUOTE]Don't get me wrong, some violinists do this too, and I think the same thing when they do as well. It's lazy, because it's taking the "path of least resistance" with the notes.

bratsche[/QUOTE]

Say what you will about his interpretation, I really don't think you can claim this is laziness. It wouldn't be harder for someone of Thile's ability to play it as 3 groups of two, he is a very strong player metrically and rhythmically, so it is highly unlikely he did this out of laziness.Whether you like it or not, he is doing this on purpose. Thile is a musician well beyond not knowing what 3/8 time is and how it works; if he didn't emphasize 3 groups of two sixteenths notes throughout it wasn't because no one has "pointed it out" to him. I don't know why he chose to play it as he did, and neither do you. Opinions are fine, but you are really trying hard to make the subjective objective with the language you use. It will not make me enjoy the recording any less, it's just a little annoying coming to a thread expressing enjoyment of an anticipated recording to read past comments that are trying to prove that the recording is "lazy". I don't understand why that is necessary.

[coletrickle]

Flynn I agree with you. Didn't Edgar Meyer produce this? Pretty sure that between the two of them they know how to read music...this comes down to how a musician chooses to play the piece. No one has to love it, but let's at least acknowledge the rigor that goes into it, and the fact that a highly established classical musician (among other things) produced this album.

[Tom Spaulding]

There's a scene in "Sideways" where the Paul Giamatti character is dissecting the mainstream wine he just drank, it's strengths and weaknesses, while his friend just chugs a glass and says 'It tastes good to me".

When it comes to Chris Thile playing anything on the mandolin, I'm that guy.

[Bernie Daniel]

Just curious about this -- but watching the PBS video I was stuck by the fact that Chris holds his pick between his thumb and the side of his curled index finger and almost all of his action comes from his wrist. In many videos of classical mandolin players I see them holding the pick more "dainty" with the end of the thumb and tip of the index finger. So it seems to me Chris holds the pick more like a bluegrass player than a classical mandolinist. Is that a valid observation?

[JAK]

In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Joe Brent, Avi Avital, Caterina Lichtenberg, Mike Marshall, Chris Acquavella... you're asking for opinions, right? All I know about Chris Thile's Bach is from the above clips... What do you base your experience of Chris - and the others - on?

[bratsche]

Okay, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers... and I certainly didn't imagine that the word "lazy" could cause such, especially when I explained that I meant he took the "path of least resistance" with the notes - which, themselves, are often in patterns which suggest "two groups of three", but which to my ear, at least, hearing them maintained as three groups of two within the context of that makes for a far more interesting, complex and rich musical experience.

Different tastes, and whatnot... I just kind of prefer 3/8 to sound like 3/8, and let the notes within that framework fall where they do, by the genius writing of Bach. To me, hearing this movement done like an Irish jig (not meant as a pejorative term, either - feel free to substitute "triplets within a duple meter") lessens its overall potential. (Notice, I said "to me." Yes, it's subjective, as is the opinion of anyone - so there's no need for me or anyone to get defensive about one's own particular subjectivities.) And as I said, I know there are others who play the piece that way, too.

I do get the impression, though, that for some people, criticizing a performance of one's musical idol at all is somehow crossing a line, and some people don't even want to acknowledge, let alone read, any opinions on the matter that differ by very much from their own. Obviously, I disagree with that. I'm not trying to make anyone enjoy anything less than they do, any more than someone posting here can cause me to like something any more, or dislike something less, than I already do. So 'nuff said about that.

To emitfo: For examples about what I was trying to communicate, there's always Heifetz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWnmaoWTB18ttp://) for the quintessential Bach violin playing. But this electric bassist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui76-oNAXug) and even this marimba player
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ydMlYGiR9s) nicely demonstrate the way the composition sounds when the 3/8 is consistently emphasized.

bratsche

[Bernie Daniel]

In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?

John if that was a reply to my post (#59) we are not on the same wavelength. My comment was based on an observation of how he held his pick and I have no idea how the world of classical mandolin players rates Chris on Bach. And it is not something I even wonder about. :)

[Bernie Daniel]

Okay, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers... and I certainly didn't imagine that the word "lazy" could cause such, especially when I explained that I meant he took the "path of least resistance" with the notes - which, themselves, are often in patterns which suggest "two groups of three", but which to my ear, at least, hearing them maintained as three groups of two within the context of that makes for a far more interesting, complex and rich musical experience.

Different tastes, and whatnot... I just kind of prefer 3/8 to sound like 3/8, and let the notes within that framework fall where they do, by the genius writing of Bach. To me, hearing this movement done like an Irish jig (not meant as a pejorative term, either - feel free to substitute "triplets within a duple meter") lessens its overall potential. (Notice, I said "to me." Yes, it's subjective, as is the opinion of anyone - so there's no need for me or anyone to get defensive about one's own particular subjectivities.) And as I said, I know there are others who play the piece that way, too.

I do get the impression, though, that for some people, criticizing a performance of one's musical idol at all is somehow crossing a line, and some people don't even want to acknowledge, let alone read, any opinions on the matter that differ by very much from their own. Obviously, I disagree with that. I'm not trying to make anyone enjoy anything less than they do, any more than someone posting here can cause me to like something any more, or dislike something less, than I already do. So 'nuff said about that.

To emitfo: For examples about what I was trying to communicate, there's always Heifetz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWnmaoWTB18ttp://) for the quintessential Bach violin playing. But this electric bassist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui76-oNAXug) and even this marimba player
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ydMlYGiR9s) nicely demonstrate the way the composition sounds when the 3/8 is consistently emphasized.

bratsche

That bass player is not of this earth! Is he a well known musician?

[bratsche]

No idea, Bernie - I just found his video an hour ago while looking for performances on YouTube. Never saw him before.

If he can do that on that big thing, I should be able to play it on my little ol' mandola. :)) Right? :disbelief:

bratsche

[Brandon Flynn]

Bratsche, I have nothing against critical analysis of a musical performance. Your second statement of your feelings on the matter is much more subjective and respectful toward the musician. It would be perfectly fine to me to point out that you prefer 3 groups of 2 to be emphasized and that you feel it leads to a richer musical experience. But you went a few steps further in making guesses as to why Thile would play it the way he does that were disparaging toward his musicianship beyond the recording: that he probably chose the interpretation because he either doesn't realize or understand that he is not playing 3/8 correctly, or that he is playing it that way because he was incapable or too lazy to emphasize 3 groups of 2 at the level of the 16ths. As someone who has listened to all Thile has done and seen him live many times, suggesting these disparaging explanations without a working knowledge of Thile as a musician is ill-tempered, and doing so with a working knowledge of Thile as a musician is simply inaccurate. Having those thoughts and opinions is one thing, but advocating them to others is unnecessarily divisive in my opinion (and yes, this may be hypocritically divisive). To start a post with "I don't mean to be contrary" is probably a good indication of that.

I'm done now. I do agree with you that at the beginning he emphasizes groups of three, but I think the internal phrases that Bach has written in at the very least prevent Thile's interpretation from sounding like duple meter, and in my ears I waver between hearing 6/8 and 3/8, if I am trying to imagine I didn't know it was in 3/8 already.

[greg_tsam]

In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?

Evan Marshall

[Ken_P]

I know this piece pretty well, I've played it (badly) myself, and I've listened to a number of different recordings, including the above linked ones. Honestly, I don't hear a huge difference in the way Thile is doing it. I hear groups of three where there's clearly meant to be groups of three, and groups of two where there are clearly meant to be groups of two. Maybe I'm just hearing what I expect to hear, but I really don't think there's a huge difference in terms of 3 vs 2 between Chris or any of the "proper" performances.

[Tom Wright]

I listened to the Presto and find it to be 3/8 mostly, with Thile occasionally letting a hemiola 3/16 happen. I would prefer if he was a trace slower and a little more deliberate about showing the rhythm but it is very smooth. I mostly like his tone.

As to interpretation I always prefer my own, but with someone else's technique.;)

[brunello97]

Well, this thread is 69+ posts long (already) and the basic tone is fairly civil. Something inside me thinks that won't be lasting another 69 posts. Soon enough the classical wonks/wanks (besides bratsche) will weigh in tut-tutting because somebody who sings about 'Rye Whisky' is stepping into their hallowed territory without paying the necessary dues (and not playing on an Embergher or a custom bowl back.) "Not that there's anything wrong with that"...but his playing is just, well, not quite right: "Harumph. I'm not trying to spoil this for anyone. Honest. My ability to critique this playing is, well, really a reflection of my own self importance, I mean self esteem. I've been playing classical music for ____ years!"

And the Thile-o-philes are ready to defend their man for having the huevos to tackle the Bach-man Partit Overdrive. And on a Gibson, no less! (Which is, of course, what Mr. Lloyd probably had in mind anyhow.) So the Bach is smokin'!

Let's all remember how polite we were when our good friend Carlo Aonzo wanted to swing. (The existential inverse of this conversation. I know Carlo loves Tiny and Homer, but.....)

This conversation, I fear, will get worse before it gets better. I want to hear the Loar so will probably score this in some fashion. Kudos for the graphic design on the CD package.

Play nicely, y'all.

Mick

[OldSausage]

Well, I'm loving this CD. I used to listen to the violin version quite a bit, but, I don't know what's wrong with me, I prefer Chris's mandolin version to that :disbelief:

[JeffD]

In any case, can you name any other mandolin player who plays Bach as well or better than Chris?

Yes. Many.

I don't know about better, (what does better mean in this context), but as good, as virtuoso, and to some perhaps more pleasing.

[JeffD]

I think it is brilliant, and effective in its own way. I like the tone of that Loar. I will be getting a copy.

I would love a companion CD on how Chris practiced, how he broke it down, whether he sought input from any Bach scholars in making his aesthetic choices and interpretation, whether he talked with any others who have recorded Bach on the mandolin.

[Dagger Gordon]

but short on mental effort, IMO.


bratsche

It's this phrase here which I find a bit hard to credit. You may not like his interpretation much, but it does look to me like he knows what he's doing and has thought about it.

[emitfo]

Okay, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers... and I certainly didn't imagine that the word "lazy" could cause such, especially when I explained that I meant he took the "path of least resistance" with the notes - which, themselves, are often in patterns which suggest "two groups of three", but which to my ear, at least, hearing them maintained as three groups of two within the context of that makes for a far more interesting, complex and rich musical experience.

Different tastes, and whatnot... I just kind of prefer 3/8 to sound like 3/8, and let the notes within that framework fall where they do, by the genius writing of Bach. To me, hearing this movement done like an Irish jig (not meant as a pejorative term, either - feel free to substitute "triplets within a duple meter") lessens its overall potential. (Notice, I said "to me." Yes, it's subjective, as is the opinion of anyone - so there's no need for me or anyone to get defensive about one's own particular subjectivities.) And as I said, I know there are others who play the piece that way, too.

I do get the impression, though, that for some people, criticizing a performance of one's musical idol at all is somehow crossing a line, and some people don't even want to acknowledge, let alone read, any opinions on the matter that differ by very much from their own. Obviously, I disagree with that. I'm not trying to make anyone enjoy anything less than they do, any more than someone posting here can cause me to like something any more, or dislike something less, than I already do. So 'nuff said about that.

To emitfo: For examples about what I was trying to communicate, there's always Heifetz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWnmaoWTB18ttp://) for the quintessential Bach violin playing. But this electric bassist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui76-oNAXug) and even this marimba player
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ydMlYGiR9s) nicely demonstrate the way the composition sounds when the 3/8 is consistently emphasized.

bratsche

Thank-you sir. I don't have the Thile recording yet--it should be hear :) this friday--so I'll have to listen more intently but upon initial impression the Heifitz interpretation sounds better to my ear also but I also understand why a player who was weened on bluegrass and affiliated Irish tunes would hear it with a more Irish jig bent. I'm familiar with the Brandenburg Concertos & The Art of Fugue but have only been exposed to bits & pieces of his sonatas & such. I look forward to learning more.

When critiquing something/someone it is easy for people to focus upon that aspect of what you've written that contains a negative assessment of the person involved instead of the main thrust of your point so it is best, for the sake of communicating your idea in a manner in which people will accept it (which is not necessarily the same as agreeing), to choose carefully the various attributions you might make as to the causes.

I did not take it that way but I can understand others landing on that as the "point" of your writing. I've made the same..."mistake" before and I was puzzled by the response(s) initially also.

[jmagill]

If you like Bach on fretted instruments, check out the latest from Celtic guitarist Tony McManus: Mysterious Boundaries (http://www.tonymcmanus.com/?portfolio=mysterious-boundaries) – mostly Bach, with some Couperin, Satie, Monteverdi and others, all arranged for fingerstyle steel-string guitar, most in altered tunings.

Astonishing renditions by one of the best there is. Tony told me he'll be performing the 13-minute "Chaconne" at the Met later this year (after an all night flight from Zurich...)

[Bernie Daniel]

I was talking with someone who has downloaded all three tracks -- I think from iTunes?
Anyway he said that it was an awesome listen but that some classical devotees (not sure about that) are indeed saying some negative things about the Thile's effort.

I don't use iTunes so I have not seen them. But it is possible that some violinists might feel "protective" about the work that Bach wrote for "their" instruments?

Not having seen the reviews I would suggest that this could be a testament to actually how good the Thile's performance is? That is the better he plays the more threatening it is to them?

If someone has access to the reviews maybe they could be displayed here?

[OldSausage]

Bernie - there are only two negative reviews on iTunes, and both of them are very short and rather silly comments such as "made my ears bleed" and "reminds me of a sewing machine". Just trolling stuff. I don't think they are representative of how the CD is being received by classical music buffs or violinists.

[Jim Garber]

Also, Beethoven's sonatina for mandolin is an insult to our instrument in my opinion (might be exaggerating a bit...but still, quite lame).

i would assume you are aware that those pieces for mandolin were commissioned by an amateur player and I am sure that LvB would have composed something much more substantial if a virtuoso player requested it.

[Jstring]

I don't know, if somebody takes the time to listen to Bach partitas on Itunes and make critical comments, I suspect that they are accomplished musicians. Like Bratsche, you would REALLY have to know a classical piece to hear that Thile is interpreting it differently...(and compare it to a sewing machine)

Those comments on Itunes seem to indicate that Thile is missing some of the "essence" of Bach, which I think is unfair...I've heard those pieces a lot in the past, and I'm really, really enjoying his "take" on them. I guess it may sound a little "off" to those who have played / heard it a thousand times on violin... Admittedly, I (and others) probably don't have the classical "ear" that Bratsche and others have...

Well, I'm not going to let anyone's critical comments stop me from enjoying the heck out of these recordings....I think they're inspirational.

I don't know if Chris Thile reads forums like this, but I would love to know how long it took him to learn these pieces. Is he so technically good that he can just basically play them + concentrate on the interpretation and feel? Does he have to put in endless hours just to master them?

It blows me away that he never seems to devote an ounce of concentration to hitting the right notes...he's just totally lost in the music...

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie - there are only two negative reviews on iTunes, and both of them are very short and rather silly comments such as "made my ears bleed" and "reminds me of a sewing machine". Just trolling stuff. I don't think they are representative of how the CD is being received by classical music buffs or violinists.

Thanks for the information -- I agree that is absurd. Is there a place to reply to the comments? It sounds more like I was suggesting then -- hostility towards a mandolin being used to play a violin piece.

[Bernie Daniel]

Originally Posted by Mr. Flynn
...Also, Beethoven's sonatina for mandolin is an insult to our instrument in my opinion (might be exaggerating a bit...but still, quite lame).

Good grief. It's a pity Ludwig van B. is not around to benefit from your counsel. Here is the insult.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwjaLx4e0lo

[Brandon Flynn]

i would assume you are aware that those pieces for mandolin were commissioned by an amateur player and I am sure that LvB would have composed something much more substantial if a virtuoso player requested it.

I didn't know that, good info. Makes a little more sense now. I'm more joking than anything, I don't like the piece but have nothing but respect for Beethoven. He wrote it when young too if I remember. Wish it was tonally more like the late quartets! I just feel a little disappointed that it is Beethoven's only mandolin effort.

[M.Marmot]

Good grief. It's a pity Ludwig van B. is not around to benefit from your counsel. Here is the insult.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwjaLx4e0lo

What a jaunty and odd piece that is - but, oh my that painting in the video, those were the days my friends...

[Cecily_Mandoliner]

I don't have much experience playing Bach pieces - but i imagine that even slowly it can be quite rewarding.

There is something amazing about Bach's chord progressions and runs of arpeggios. Just figuring out how to play a few of the intial chords from the Chaconne gave me the chills. And, the opening phrase of the Gigue is a great way to start my practice sessions.:mandosmiley:

[Amanda Gregg]

Hello fellow mandolin geeks! (That's a compliment)

Just to add my voice to the chorus, I got the album yesterday, have listening to it about 3 or 4 times, and think it's just superlative. As a mandolin enthusiast, I feel like I was just given a gift. What an exciting time to be a mandolin player! I'm so over the moon about it, I'm ready to declare it the "best" in several categories...I'll cool down for a few days before signing my name to that declaration though.

There was some question about who listens to Bach regularly, so in case anyone is keeping stats, I do listen to a lot of Bach. My favorite recording of the Sonatas and Partitas is Arthur Grumiaux's. That album is a real education in time-keeping, among a million other things. I listen to it while working a lot, though it will probably be supplanted by Thile's album now.

To those who like Thile's recording, I think it would be a good idea to get your hands on a traditional recording like Grumiaux's and a copy of the sheet music. I think that you will only appreciate Thile's efforts more with added perspective: you will see that his work is accurate, erudite, and full of love and care.

Feels good to get that off my chest.

-Amanda

[tmsweeney]

Hello fellow mandolin geeks! (That's a compliment)

o those who like Thile's recording, I think it would be a good idea to get your hands on a traditional recording like Grumiaux's and a copy of the sheet music. I think that you will only appreciate Thile's efforts more with added perspective: you will see that his work is accurate, erudite, and full of love and care.

Feels good to get that off my chest.

-Amanda

YES - try playing through some of these

talk about opening the doors of perception

I've heard historical comments about how composers like Beethoven and Bartok - always went back to Bach to clear their minds
and get a revitalized musical perspective.

[Cheryl Watson]

Chris does hold his pick with the grip you describe that is used by many bluegrassers but I see his forearm coming into play as well as his wrist. The bigger the sweep over the strings, the more he seems to use his forearm. I've seen players who seem to use only their wrist and their playing can be stilted and not as smooth and free flowing as players who involve forearm movement. Wrist only tends to lose good tone also. Forearm movement helps you move from string to string and gives you more of a sweep than mere wrist movement. That is my experience, anyway.

Further thoughts: Did you notice the way Chris plays those classical trills in the video? Just amazing! He is playing an alternating up/down pattern and it is so smooth and fast that I swore, by just the audio, that he was using his fretting hand in a quick hammer-on/pull-off pattern and less pick strokes. I try to replicate this and it sounds totally different than Chris... go figure! LOL! Chris has always amazed me with his extreme technical ability, and that, coupled with his brilliant musical mind, makes Chris so astounding! I know that both Chris and Edgar are adept at writing notation, and that maybe at the beginning, these pieces were written out in notation. I do not know the process they went through but that would be an interesting thing to know. Whether or not there was notation created in the beginning, Chris seems to have these Bach mandolin arragements memorized. I can't remember where I parked my car half the time. HA!


Just curious about this -- but watching the PBS video I was stuck by the fact that Chris holds his pick between his thumb and the side of his curled index finger and almost all of his action comes from his wrist. In many videos of classical mandolin players I see them holding the pick more "dainty" with the end of the thumb and tip of the index finger. So it seems to me Chris holds the pick more like a bluegrass player than a classical mandolinist. Is that a valid observation?

[Bernie Daniel]

What a jaunty and odd piece that is - but, oh my that painting in the video, those were the days my friends...

Well I guess if it qualifies as art......:)

[mandolino maximus]

Hello fellow mandolin geeks! (That's a compliment)


To those who like Thile's recording, I think it would be a good idea to get your hands on a traditional recording like Grumiaux's and a copy of the sheet music. I think that you will only appreciate Thile's efforts more with added perspective: you will see that his work is accurate, erudite, and full of love and care.

Feels good to get that off my chest.

-Amanda

I spent a while doing side by side comparisons of movements (except the Double: Presto) with YouTube recordings of Heifetz and agree. Very rewarding comparison of articulation (beginning, middle and end of notes, phrases and movements) borne initially of bow vs. pick. If you read the liner notes and watch that PBS clip, you know he's given it a lot of thought and consulted with a few recordings and several professional Bach soloists - violin and mandolin. I wouldn't be too quick to delve too deeply for a specific contrary fact and draw broadly from that. He likes to go to new places if they work. Some won't go there and that's OK too.

Thile ran a twitter contest for alternative names for the recording. "Ain't No Partita of Nothin" is my favorite.

Came up for different air later. That new Frank Solivan effort has some sweet pickin'

P.S. About Beethoven, I'm looking at sheet music for four pieces of mandolin music by him. Three may have been written for Josephine Clary (my last name) and one for a pro. Some say he had the hots for Josephine, but she married a count instead. Seems like a few recognizable themes re-worked for mandolin.

[bratsche]

I know that both Chris and Edgar are adept at writing notation, and that maybe at the beginning, these pieces were written out in notation. I do not know the process they went through but that would be an interesting thing to know. Whether or not there was notation created in the beginning, Chris seems to have these Bach mandolin arragements memorized. I can't remember where I parked my car half the time. HA!

They're not arrangements. It's just the music, as originally composed and notated by Bach. And the process of getting it into one's fingers usually gets it simultaneously into one's memory, just as a natural byproduct of the study and practicing involved to be able to play it. At least in my experience.

bratsche

[shortymack]

Geeks vs uber-geeks reading waaaay too much into things, argh! lol. Im waitng for 'OH my did you hear him breathe on the one track?! A real classical player doesnt breathe, we all know that'.

Bottom line, its a great CD and performance(s). Thanks Chris.

[mandolino maximus]

Chris seems to have these Bach mandolin arragements memorized. I can't remember where I parked my car half the time. HA!

Indeed. I saw the live Goat Rodeo Sessions broadcast in theaters. Every bit of that super complicated stuff in his head. The next day Punch Brothers. The next Michael Daves. The next Brad Mehldau jazz - BTW his stuff sounds like you could only do it on a piano with a roll. Most musicians would spend weeks getting ready for any one of these. He carries it all up there, almost all at once.

[OldSausage]

I don't know, if somebody takes the time to listen to Bach partitas on Itunes and make critical comments, I suspect that they are accomplished musicians.

Lolz



you would REALLY have to know a classical piece to hear that Thile is interpreting it differently...(and compare it to a sewing machine)

No, you wouldn't, you would just have to be really eager to pull an opinion from, erm, anywhere. These are fairly well known pieces, I suspect millions of people have known them intimately since childhood.

[Jim Garber]

OK... I know that this discussion will go on and in a more general sense has gone on for years and centuries. There is no doubt in my mind that Thile is a master of his instrument in multiple genres and has an excellent musical sense. From a classical perspective -- and bear in mind that my viewpoint comes from that of a perfectly amateur player -- Thile's performance of these Bach pieces on this and subsequent recordings should really be a starting point and not the final interpretation of his playing. I would imagine that if Thile plays these same pieces a few years from now he would find some additional ways to interpret them. This is the magic of Bach in general and these S&Ps in particular.

I recall an interview with Yo Yo Ma who says he still plays Bach every day and finds something new each time. In my own humble explorations of these S&Ps, I have had a similar experience.

[SincereCorgi]

Not having seen the reviews I would suggest that this could be a testament to actually how good the Thile's performance is? That is the better he plays the more threatening it is to them?

Chris Thile is a wonderful player, but he's in no danger of 'threatening' the classical violin world. Players of his caliber, raised into it from extremely young ages, are plentiful among violinists. Throw a rock at the string section of any major orchestra, and whoever it hits could work up a highly credible and polished version of these pieces.

Having said that, it's nice to hear them on an American-style mandolin.

[Darren Bailey]

I've had the chance to sit and isten intenty three times since it arrived and it has grown on me with each listen. I don't own any other classical music and I'm not going to rush out for others (until part 2 arrives), but hearing Thile on his Loar playing this stunning music is a joy. It's a recording that inspires you to pick up your instrument and even dare to think about what you might try and learn next. He manages to introduce the (this) listener to new genres of music while remaining accessible. If you haven't yet ordered it I would recommend this one.

[tmsweeney]

Thile is also a gifted violinist ( and guitarist as well)

don't know if he played the Bach S & Ps on violin - but I'm sure he is quite capable

[Timmando]

I have to admit that I have heard of a famous musician named Bach, and now may be able to recognize Bach music if I heard it in a museum or in an elevator. But I bought this cd to make my little contribution to support Chris and his music, as I do other musicians that I like. Great job Chris..thanks.

[OldSausage]

..may be able to recognize Bach music if I heard it in a museum or in an elevator...

Dizzying heights that no bluegrass musician dare aspire to.

[Timmando]

Maybe that is why I get dizzy when I listen to Bach? Kind of like when I place my forehead on a baseball bat and then run around it in circles? We do that every friday nite here in the sticks for kicks...that and our beard growing contest keep us going:)

[Bernie Daniel]

OK... I know that this discussion will go on and in a more general sense has gone on for years and centuries. There is no doubt in my mind that Thile is a master of his instrument in multiple genres and has an excellent musical sense. From a classical perspective -- and bear in mind that my viewpoint comes from that of a perfectly amateur player -- Thile's performance of these Bach pieces on this and subsequent recordings should really be a starting point and not the final interpretation of his playing. I would imagine that if Thile plays these same pieces a few years from now he would find some additional ways to interpret them. This is the magic of Bach in general and these S&Ps in particular.

I recall an interview with Yo Yo Ma who says he still plays Bach every day and finds something new each time. In my own humble explorations of these S&Ps, I have had a similar experience.

I thought it was Itzak Perlman who said that? :) Probably they have all said it and they all experience the continuous learning. It is known that Jascha Heifetz actually did make notations and modifications of the score to order to convey the emotion that he thought the piece should evoke and he also said he was still no sure he knew Bach even after four decades of playing him.

I'm sure Thile will like you say evolve over time -- he is still a very young player in the bigger picture.

[Bernie Daniel]

Chris Thile is a wonderful player, but he's in no danger of 'threatening' the classical violin world. Players of his caliber, raised into it from extremely young ages, are plentiful among violinists. Throw a rock at the string section of any major orchestra, and whoever it hits could work up a highly credible and polished version of these pieces.

Having said that, it's nice to hear them on an American-style mandolin.

What you say is definitely true -- Chris Thile is a wonderful musician and a player of great skill -- but in the classical violin world there are simply hundreds similarly gifted players of all ages. If some of them had switched to mandolin (at an early enough age) they would probably be much like Chris.

If you have any doubt just find the series of master lessons videos of Jascha Heifetz at Southern California University from the 1960's -- they are on You Tube --- four of them (each a hour long). In them you will see about a half dozen 20-something violin players who seem super human -- that is until Mr. Heiftez picks up his bow to show them how the insanely difficult passage really should go! It is mind boggling.

But that won't stop a few less secure violin players getting their nose out of joint seeing a mandolin player like Chris blaze through their territory!

I agree I am so pleased that he did this work on the Gibson Loar.

[mandolino maximus]

If we are in hope of this project reaching new audiences for both the mandolin and Bach (and to other genres), I have anecdotal confirmation. A nephew and his fiancé, neither of whom knows the first thing about classical or about bluegrass - he used to play in a rock band - will be attending the Bach concert in our area based only on his seeing the documentary "How to Grow a Band," his impression of Thile, and my sharing that there was a concert.

It also occurs that, although the Double: Presto (Doble Espresso), is much faster than conventional, there will be quite a few new faces that will be melted and will take in more Bach thanks to its daring rendition. As the great classicist Noam Pikelny said, "Bach shreds." It can be good and is nearly always controversial to be daring. More than a few of the conventional elders were daring at one time or another.

[nanaimo]

I started to listen to it late last night! Very nice. I have listened to quite a lot of Bach. This is just one more version. I like the way Thile brings together the different voices (as he described in the PBS interview). I believe that you can't gets too much Bach!

[mandolino maximus]

What you say is definitely true -- Chris Thile is a wonderful musician and a player of great skill -- but in the classical violin world there are simply hundreds similarly gifted players of all ages. If some of them had switched to mandolin (at an early enough age) they would probably be much like Chris.

If you have any doubt just find the series of master lessons videos of Jascha Heifetz at Southern California University from the 1960's -- they are on You Tube --- four of them (each a hour long). In them you will see about a half dozen 20-something violin players who seem super human -- that is until Mr. Heiftez picks up his bow to show them how the insanely difficult passage really should go! It is mind boggling.

But that won't stop a few less secure violin players getting their nose out of joint seeing a mandolin player like Chris blaze through their territory!

I agree I am so pleased that he did this work on the Gibson Loar.

I used to get downright elated and depressed at the same time just walking down the halls of the School of Music rehearsal rooms. So much skill. Kind of a vicious competition to think most would never really make it.

[tablaninja]

Geeks vs uber-geeks reading waaaay too much into things, argh! lol. Im waitng for 'OH my did you hear him breathe on the one track?! A real classical player doesnt breathe, we all know that'.

Bottom line, its a great CD and performance(s). Thanks Chris.

Funny you should mention that. I did hear him breathe on that one track! It made me aware that I had been holding my breath much like I tend to do when practicing something complicated. A habit I'm working on breaking.

[OldSausage]

Funny you should mention that. I did hear him breathe on that one track! It made me aware that I had been holding my breath much like I tend to do when practicing something complicated. A habit I'm working on breaking.

I seemed to notice a number of noises off on the recording. At one point I swear someone came in and asked Chris if he wanted a cup of tea. He didn't seem to answer, so he must not have been thirsty.

[Brandon Flynn]

I seemed to notice a number of noises off on the recording. At one point I swear someone came in and asked Chris if he wanted a cup of tea. He didn't seem to answer, so he must not have been thirsty.

I could hear the mandolin or possibly a leather strap creaking as it moved slightly at one point.

[TheArimathean]

I don't know if Chris Thile reads forums like this, but I would love to know how long it took him to learn these pieces. Is he so technically good that he can just basically play them + concentrate on the interpretation and feel? Does he have to put in endless hours just to master them?

It blows me away that he never seems to devote an ounce of concentration to hitting the right notes...he's just totally lost in the music...

I'd love to know this too... It takes me a few months to get a classical piece down on piano... and then I still mess up. :D

[Ed Goist]

Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this thread...
This is already available for listening on Spotify. Great stuff!

[shortymack]

Funny you should mention that. I did hear him breathe on that one track! It made me aware that I had been holding my breath much like I tend to do when practicing something complicated. A habit I'm working on breaking.

So did I, and the creeks as well. So its confirmed, Thile is officially not a humanoid robot, thus also confirming his application of 6/8 and 2 vs 3 pairs.

[Sterling]

First of all, what a wonderful album. I've listened to it four or five times so far. My question is: How would these tunes sound on a different mandolin such as an round hole A mandolin? rounder? Warmer? Too much sustain? Just asking!

[OldSausage]

First of all, what a wonderful album. I've listened to it four or five times so far. My question is: How would these tunes sound on a different mandolin such as an round hole A mandolin? rounder? Warmer? Too much sustain? Just asking!

Well play 'em, see what you think!

[blauserk]

All the pick noise really ruined the album for me.

I'm kidding! Kidding! I didn't have the patience to get the CD, just downloaded the music the moment it appeared on iTunes. I came to mandolin via folk music, but have always enjoyed classical music played on the instrument.

All I can say is that Partita No. 1 in B minor, Double: Presto is really, well, Presto. No, scratch that, it's Double Presto. It's like hearing the mandolin equivalent of Buckethead.

[TheArimathean]

I for one actually enjoy being able to hear pick clicks... I'm quirky like that. :disbelief:

[Brandon Flynn]

All the pick noise really ruined the album for me.

I'm kidding! Kidding! I didn't have the patience to get the CD, just downloaded the music the moment it appeared on iTunes. I came to mandolin via folk music, but have always enjoyed classical music played on the instrument.

All I can say is that Partita No. 1 in B minor, Double: Presto is really, well, Presto. No, scratch that, it's Double Presto. It's like hearing the mandolin equivalent of Buckethead.

I've heard it played that fast a decent number of times. Probably not common though. I guess it depends on how fast you want the corrente before it to be. I prefer it at that pace but can't possibly play the double that fast! So I keep the corrente as fast as I can do the double.

[John Hill]

Just purchased & listening as I type. I love Baroque music and Bach in particular and to hear it played by such a talented guy on a superb instrument is a joy. Lots to absorb.

One thing I will never quite understand is how Loar's design didn't catch on in classical circles. It just sounds so much more rich, stronger and more vibrant than the standard "classical" mandolin.

Edit to add: Double Presto...how in the world does anyone memorize that run of music?

[M.Marmot]

Edit to add: Double Presto...how in the world does anyone memorize that run of music?

Just follow the directions on how get to Carnegie Hall.

[emitfo]

One thing I will never quite understand is how Loar's design didn't catch on in classical circles. It just sounds so much more rich, stronger and more vibrant than the standard "classical" mandolin.


While listening to the youtube and watching I thought "I wonder how that'd sound on a Phoenix Classical Mandolin..." <duck>

[Sterling]

Well play 'em, see what you think!

I would love to! I bought a The Loar 220VS three months ago, put new strings on it and really like the sound. I now have MAS syndrome after playing some summer trumpet gigs and have spare cash. It's a dilemma. A style, F style, F holes, oval holes, round holes. I guess I could have worse problems....

[John Hill]

While listening to the youtube and watching I thought "I wonder how that'd sound on a Phoenix Classical Mandolin..." <duck>

No need to duck. The Phoenix has the same design principles: elevated fingerboard, arched back & top, f holes.

That's what I mean by Loar's design. Phoenix Neoclassical, Collings MT, F5, etc.

[OldSausage]

I would love to! I bought a The Loar 220VS three months ago, put new strings on it and really like the sound. I now have MAS syndrome after playing some summer trumpet gigs and have spare cash. It's a dilemma. A style, F style, F holes, oval holes, round holes. I guess I could have worse problems....

Not a problem for me - I have a A-style with two oval holes that sometimes sounds like an oval hole and sometimes sounds like an F hole:

105221

[JeffD]

But it is possible that some violinists might feel "protective" about the work that Bach wrote for "their" instruments?



No I don't think so. Bach has been played on mandolin for almost as long as there have been mandolins.

I think, if there is a turf war, (which is kind of tragic, but musicians are human after all), it would be over genre bending - making your reputation in something else and then coming over here to beat "us" up. Or perhaps there could be some jealousy (again tragic if true, and not entirely surprising) that someone could gain a sort of rock and roll status doing what "we" have been doing for so long unnoticed except by our own community.

I agree with your point that negative reviews indicate how good Thile's performance is. Like I said somewhere else, criticism is a way of knowing you have impact.

[Scott Tichenor]

Just published a couple of days ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgC46wq-Xs

[Traveling Tracks]

Love this video.....already starting working on this movement yesterday after being inspired by this video.
I posted this earlier but didn't get much of response....anyone know, or can tell from these videos, which Loar Thile is playing?

[Sterling]

Not a problem for me - I have a A-style with two oval holes that sometimes sounds like an oval hole and sometimes sounds like an F hole:

105221

I really like the non-traditional look of your mandolin. I have some 1930's art deco trumpets that are great. Google Conn Vocabell trumpet or 1938 King Silvertone. I love the sound of the mandolin,I just don't know what I want to do with it! Classical, bluegrass, swing? I'm just playing scales and etudes out off my trumpet books in different keys learning my way around.

[tablaninja]

Here is the link for Chris on Soundcheck earlier today.

http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/2013/aug/14/chris-thile-in-studio/

[Larry S Sherman]

This is an older video, but shows Chris' appreciation for Bach on violin and his long-term commitment to these pieces:

75gKafZikqM

Larry

[Bernie Daniel]

This is an older video, but shows Chris' appreciation for Bach on violin and his long-term commitment to these pieces: (video post #128 removed) Larry

Larry that is a great video not only for the music but also the comments. To hear someone of Chris Thile's abilities talk about the "limitations" of the mandolin relative to the violin and the reverse too!

I don't play much classical but I do like to play many of the Scottish "Laments" and the Celtic airs and other slow tunes that require sustain -- I have often been frustrated as to how to play these tune because it is so hard to mimic a violin "long bow" with a pick and tremelo.

Do you tremelo ad nauseum or do you just give up and speed the tempo up? A tune like Tom Anderson's Da Shockit Light is a good example of this conundrum. It is good to hear a virtuoso talk about the same feelings. :)

This has been an interesting thread -- we can consider ourselves lucky that people like Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, and Evan Marshall (gee those two guys aren't related are they?) and others too (I don't mean to slight anyone) put their hand deeply into classical music because so often the prodigious child prodigies like them end up on the violin, viola, cello, or piano or some other instrument of a symphony orchestra. Or if they go for the mandolin it is usually on the bowl back instrument like Katerina Lichenberg for example.

No offense to Bill Monroe or bluegrass but it is wonderful to hear the Gibson F-5 playing the music it was designed for in the first place. Or at least what Lloyd Loar had in mind for it!

[J. Galoshes Esq.]

Just watched the PBS interview...

Seeing him calmly explain how he approaches the different voices of a fugue while playing the fugue (!!!!) was one of the more impressive things I've encountered in a while.

[Cheryl Watson]

Love this video.....already starting working on this movement yesterday after being inspired by this video.
I posted this earlier but didn't get much of response....anyone know, or can tell from these videos, which Loar Thile is playing?

I am quite certain that Chris is playing #75316 (the first Loar he acquired) in the D'Addario close-up video. It looks like the same Loar in the photos from the interview here:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/publish/mandolins_001355.shtml

I compared the figure in the flowerpot inlay and some other markings on the headstock. (I know that is obsessive but we ARE an obsessive lot, concerning mandolins :mandosmiley: )

I do not know for certain if he is exlusively using #75316 on the actual Bach recordings, however. He could be using both Loars; picking and choosing since they most likely have some different qualities. Chris has stated (in so many words) that #75316 has extremely sweet, clear and complex highs right up the neck. The bottom end is not quite as strong (deep?) as with some Loars. I'm not certain of his exact words, but that is close. I don't know the serial number of his 2nd Loar or anything much about how it compares to his first.

In the earlier video that was posted in this thread, he is playing his one remaining Dudenbostel; the one that had part of the scroll broken off.

[Ken_P]

Here is the link for Chris on Soundcheck earlier today.

http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/2013/aug/14/chris-thile-in-studio/

I highly recommend that everyone take half an hour to listen to this - it's a wonderful interview. Say what you will about his interpretations, but you can't say after listening to this that he didn't put a great deal of thought and understanding into this work.

[foldedpath]

Larry that is a great video not only for the music but also the comments. To hear someone of Chris Thile's abilities talk about the "limitations" of the mandolin relative to the violin and the reverse too!

I don't play much classical but I do like to play many of the Scottish "Laments" and the Celtic airs and other slow tunes that require sustain -- I have often been frustrated as to how to play these tune because it is so hard to mimic a violin "long bow" with a pick and tremelo.

Do you tremelo ad nauseum or do you just give up and speed the tempo up? A tune like Tom Anderson's Da Shockit Light is a good example of this conundrum. It is good to hear a virtuoso talk about the same feelings. :)

I think what Chris is saying (in that video Larry posted) is resonating with many of us who play Irish, Scottish, and related music, where the traditional instrumentation uses long sustain and articulation based on that sustain.

When it comes to a slow air like Da Slockit Light, I just don't try to play it on mandolin. At least not at home, or as a solo piece in performance. The notes just hang too long, if you're playing it at the tempo Tom Anderson recorded it (there's a nice example "The Silver Bow" album with Tom and Aly Bain). Speeding it up doesn't do justice to the tune. The Scottish/Irish session I attend plays that tune fairly often, and I join in, but all I'm contributing is the note attack. I have to resist the temptation to tremolo the signature sustained notes in that piece, even though this particular session wouldn't care (they're pretty eclectic). The slowest tunes I try to play on mandolin are those where there is just enough sustain to carry the piece. Not everything works.

I do think that what Chris says about the advantages a mandolin brings to Classical music compared to a violin, like three and four note chords, can apply to traditional Irish and Scottish music. At least, when used carefully... harmony not being as central to the tradition as it is in Classical music. We're very limited in note sustain and articulation, so we might as well use the harmonic advantages of the instrument.

[Scott Tichenor]

When it comes to a slow air like Da Slockit Light, I just don't try to play it on mandolin. At least not at home, or as a solo piece in performance. The notes just hang too long...

I play this song at every gig, especially weddings. People *love* this piece. The space is perfect. One size doesn't fit all in this case. But we're not talking about celtic music here. Chris played a lot of slow Bach pieces in the park on Tuesday and they were marvelous, even with sirens, dogs barking and kids playing in the background.

[Jim Garber]

Here (http://www.musicomh.com/reviews/albums/chris-thile-bach-sonatas-and-partitas-vol-1) is what I think is a considered and reasonable review and evaluation of the CD, with one thought being, "the fault, dear Chris, is in your instrument" but generally overall praise for his playing.

I do not own this CD or the content thereof as yet, so I cannot tell you whether I agree or not, tho my general opinion is that Bach on the mandolin has a steep curve of expression compared to the violin.

I believe in general that some of these S&Ps are extremely difficult to interpret on the mandolin with its limited sustain, the ultimate being the Chaconne.

[foldedpath]

I play this song at every gig, especially weddings. People *love* this piece. The space is perfect. One size doesn't fit all in this case.

Well, more power to 'ya if you can make it work! I just can't get it to work at the tempo I hear in my head. Anyway, back to the Bach.... and I need to pick up this album over the weekend.

[Caleb]

I highly recommend that everyone take half an hour to listen to this - it's a wonderful interview. Say what you will about his interpretations, but you can't say after listening to this that he didn't put a great deal of thought and understanding into this work.Listened and enjoyed. But I kept waiting for the host to ask about his mandolin and what sort of strings and picks he uses.
:)

[Brandon Flynn]

Here (http://www.musicomh.com/reviews/albums/chris-thile-bach-sonatas-and-partitas-vol-1) is what I think is a considered and reasonable review and evaluation of the CD, with one thought being, "the fault, dear Chris, is in your instrument" and general overall praise for his playing.

I do not own this CD or the content thereof as yet, so I cannot tell you whether I agree or not, tho my general opinion is that Bach on the mandolin has a steep curve of expression compared to the violin.

I believe in general that some of these S&Ps are extremely difficult to interpret on the mandolin with its limited sustain, the ultimate being the Chaconne.

Very reasonable review. These pieces, after all, are violin pieces. Large sections of them just aren't as good on our instrument. For the mandolin lover though, they are wonderful. And certain movements are so interesting and different on mandolin in a great way (the fugues, the E major prelude, and the andante from Sonata two is my favorite so far on the album).

[JeffD]

Here (http://www.musicomh.com/reviews/albums/chris-thile-bach-sonatas-and-partitas-vol-1) is what I think is a considered and reasonable review and evaluation of the CD,.

Great review.

You know, it must be wonderful to be compared with Heifetz.

[Bernie Daniel]

Did someone already post this? If so my apologies! Anyway its a pretty good piece!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LUPtADLYjM

[Cheryl Watson]

I think that it is a fair and honest review, and we all know that some people don't really care for the "plucky", "brittle" sound of the mandolin (we might rather call these qualities "pop in the notes" and "cut") but earlier, the reviewer sort of contradicts himself and calls the sound of Thile's mandolin "lovely." And, I'm fairly certain that Bela Fleck is a banjo player :)

[Jim Garber]

I think that it is a fair and honest review, and we all know that some people don't really care for the "plucky", "brittle" sound of the mandolin (we might rather call these qualities "pop in the notes" and "cut") but earlier, the reviewer sort of contradicts himself and calls the sound of Thile's mandolin "lovely." And, I'm fairly certain that Bela Fleck is a banjo player :)

I don't think the reviewer contradicts himself with the tonality comment:

The eight-stringed mandolin is a very brittle and plucky sounding instrument compared to the violin. And there is no bow to drag across the strings to create complex sonorities.

I think he is either mistaken or writes awkwardly here:

Whether the second volume expands on this achievement is unlikely, but Thile now must be considered – along with Bela Fleck – as one of the contemporary masters of the mandolin, exercising his powers across multiple genres.
I would like to think that he just compares both as outsiders playing classical music, not as both mandolins -- but it should he been clearer, yes.

[OldSausage]

Well, I think it is a pretty fair review, the bits I don't agree with are:


While there is nothing wrong with Thile’s playing – despite being perhaps a bit slow in this movement – it shows there are problems with the capabilities of the mandolin itself.


But as the 60-minute disc unfolds it starts to feel as though the repetitive and clinical precision that is required of Thile’s the plucked mandolin ends up suffocating the bigger musical picture

But then, you know, I really like the sound of a mandolin, so at least one of us is rather hopelessly biased.

[bratsche]

I believe in general that some of these S&Ps are extremely difficult to interpret on the mandolin with its limited sustain, the ultimate being the Chaconne.

I first began studying the Chaconne in 1974 as a violinist. When revisiting it on the viola a decade later, though it was more satisfying to me than it had been, I first began to sense a deeper longing, that I could not explain, to play this work on a plucked instrument. Hence, my favorite version of it today is not even on any bowed instrument at all, but it's this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdi1kf0mfi8), which I find so sublime that I could listen to every day and not grow tired of hearing it I agree that for this work, a mandolin is not optimal. Since I don't play a baroque lute in this too-short time on earth, I hope for my efforts on the mandola to be able to make a somewhat suitable, if still not ideal, compromise. (Naturally, thus far the right hand has been my biggest stumbling block!)

bratsche

[Paul Busman]

Here (http://www.musicomh.com/reviews/albums/chris-thile-bach-sonatas-and-partitas-vol-1) is what I think is a considered and reasonable review and evaluation of the CD, with one thought being, "the fault, dear Chris, is in your instrument" but generally overall praise for his playing.

I do not own this CD or the content thereof as yet, so I cannot tell you whether I agree or not, tho my general opinion is that Bach on the mandolin has a steep curve of expression compared to the violin.

I believe in general that some of these S&Ps are extremely difficult to interpret on the mandolin with its limited sustain, the ultimate being the Chaconne.

"Thile now must be considered – along with Bela Fleck – as one of the contemporary masters of the mandolin, exercising his powers across multiple genres."
Huh? I do agree that this was a good review. I'll know more when my CD arrives on Monday.

[Paul Busman]

I have to admit that I have heard of a famous musician named Bach, and now may be able to recognize Bach music if I heard it in a museum or in an elevator. But I bought this cd to make my little contribution to support Chris and his music, as I do other musicians that I like. Great job Chris..thanks.
Now that you've dipped into the Bach font of music, do explore a bit more. I'd suggest the Brandenburg Concertos for starters.

[Bernie Daniel]

...But then, you know, I really like the sound of a mandolin, so at least one of us is rather hopelessly biased.

And you, the epitome of reasonable can not be that one :)

Note in added proof: I agree with you! Case closed! Next string?

[Cheryl Watson]

Well, "brittle" and "lovely" are adjectives that do seem to oppose each other, IMO. I agree that, because of the drawing of the bow, the violin is capable of more complex sonorities. It sure is nice to have a really good fiddler in a string band situation, to add more than just the sound of percussive and plucky strings.

Anyway, I am really enjoying Thile's new album. I really love his dynamics and expression and his crescendos are really amazing.

[JAK]

This is a classic(al) thread....

[Scott Tichenor]

Warning - opinion ahead:

The review linked above has issues. Thanks, but I'll save my links for another. So let's get the fact out the way that Bela Fleck isn't a mandolin player. So much for researching your musicians. They even used that quote on their Facebook page. Hilarious.

"Thile's the plucked mandolin..." (umm... edit, please). As soon as I see reviewers using the "plucky" word I glaze over. Sorry.

No classical reviewer will ever be criticized by an editor--assuming that site employs one--for looking down on non-classical "family" instruments. I find criticism of someone for playing Bach on a mandolin or banjo tantamount to criticizing a Chinese restaurant because you came in looking for a chicken fried steak which wasn't on the menu. The nerve, these musicians. Don't they realize Bach is owned by a limited group of instruments for music that has existed for as much as 200 years before it was ever recorded?

"Recorded by long-standing Yo-Yo Ma cohort and bassist Edgar Meyer, the sound is clean yet roomy, with microphones closely capturing the lovely natural sound of Thile’s mandolin."

Wrong. Edgar produced the project, he didn't record it. Stop... microphones were used here? What will these crazy musicians think of next.

I'd say three of the four existing reader reviews (http://bit.ly/1cnPOsI) already on amazon at the bottom of the page are far more informational. Ah, but the one linked is on a web site. Whoa...

[Bernie Daniel]

If the reviewer was expecting Bach to sound the same on mandolin as it does on fiddle perhaps he needs to broaden his perspective or seek a new line of work? Because it won't.

In fact, if classical music sounded the same on every instrument why not just have everyone study violin or why bother with all the mess of ORCHESTRAS?

Isn't it good that the pieces sound different on different instruments? If every recording of the Bach sonatas and partitas sounded like Heifetz on his violin why would one bother to buy more than one recording of the music?

[Tavy]

It sounds pretty darn good to me, and I don't even normally like Thile's playing that much! :)

The interesting thing to me is that the linked review gives it 4/5 stars, but then goes on to damn it with rather faint praise.

[August Watters]

The reviewer doesn't really sound like he's done his homework. He says (paraphrasing here) that isolated moments of musical success don't compensate for the overall inadequacy of the mandolin for this music - but makes no attempt to support that claim by pointing to other mandolin recordings. Does he really mean to draw judgments about the limitations of an instrument by listening to one player?

[coletrickle]

This must be one of the worst reviews I have ever read. It is so full of contradiction...and so unclear. Pick a pony and ride it. You can't say this at the start of your review: "but as pianist Glenn Gould proved with Bach, it’s the strength of feeling in the playing that counts, not the instrument." and then spend the rest saying the instrument is the problem. It makes no sense. Add in all of the other mistakes and you have a serious hack review. Weigh the merits of the album on the performance, not the medium it is performed on.

[SincereCorgi]

Does he really mean to draw judgments about the limitations of an instrument by listening to one player?

Well, when that one player is the most celebrated and famous living American mandolin player it makes more sense. I think most people who are familiar with the violin renditions are going to find the mandolin versions dry and clicky by comparison, and that's a centuries-old problem for guitars and mandolins. A mandolinist playing violin repertoire is always going to be struggling to overcome the mandolin's natural weaknesses... shame there's not enough cases of violinists playing mandolin music for us to act all superior about it.

[Bernie Daniel]

...I think most people who are familiar with the violin renditions are going to find the mandolin versions dry and clicky by comparison, and that's a centuries-old problem for guitars and mandolins....shame there's not enough cases of violinists playing mandolin music for us to act all superior about it.

Of course if you judge a mandolin by violin standards it might be found lacking in some aspects -- if you judge a violin by mandolin standards you might find some aspects of its presentation not to your satisfaction also?

A circle is not superior a rectangle but it is different.

I agree with others the review in question was not well thought out and was contradictory to some respect. And the sentence structure/syntax was not impressive either -- IMO.

[JEStanek]

In general, I don't read reviews. In general, I'll listen to snippets (or watch a preview) online or go with recommendations from people I know and trust. I bought this at Amazon and am w a i t i n g for it to arrive. I'll stay in the dark until then. I'm pretty sure I'm going to love it as I enjoy Bach, don't feel tied to any version I've heard before and Chris's videos amaze me. The work he puts in has yielded some good stuff.

Jamie

[Jim Garber]

I apologize to everyone and to Chris for posting that link for that review by Geoff Cowart. My too quick read of the review seemed like a balanced one to me weighing the performance and the music and the instrument. I am sorry that this thread turned into a critique of the critiquer. Everyone should feel free to post their opinions but I personally would like to see it more directed toward Chris and his work and Bach on the mandolin rather than this particular critic's work. Just my 2 cents here. Carry on...

[BradKlein]

In answer to an earlier question, the Bach CD was recorded entirely with Thile's first Loar-signed F-5 #75316. His second Loar-signed Gibson is not yet fully set up to his liking and he doesn't use it in performance.

[JonZ]

Thiele has been candid about the expressive limitations of the mandolin compared to the violin.

[John Hill]

Forget that these particular pieces of music were initially written for violin. So what. Who, besides stuffy "classical" music critics really cares? Violin players? So?

The important, beautiful, thing is the music itself. The particular notes, intervals of notes, arpeggios, chords and progressions are what makes this music moving and powerful. Whether on lute, guit-fiddle (as my dad calls the guitar) violin or mandolin I don't really care. I listen to the violin renditions mainly for comparison of interpretation of the music but the instrumentation is often of importance only to the listener.

All the huffery & puffery with classical music & especially classical music critics are a couple of the reasons why the genre struggles nowadays to be viable.

[Bernie Daniel]

Forget that these particular pieces of music were initially written for violin. So what. Who, besides stuffy "classical" music critics really cares? Violin players? So?

The important, beautiful, thing is the music itself. The particular notes, intervals of notes, arpeggios, chords and progressions are what makes this music moving and powerful. Whether on lute, guit-fiddle (as my dad calls the guitar) violin or mandolin I don't really care. I listen to the violin renditions mainly for comparison of interpretation of the music but the instrumentation is often of importance only to the listener....

Agreed.

[Bernie Daniel]

I apologize to everyone and to Chris for posting that link for that review by Geoff Cowart.....

Why apologie? It's not like anyone minds venting a bit...:)

[greg_tsam]

So let's get the fact out the way that Bela Fleck isn't a mandolin player.

Whoa...

Bela plays mando? If he does I'm sure he sounds great. That reviewer sounds ... :confused:

[Jack McKinnon]

No doubt a new opportunity for mandolin appreciation. I will listen to this often, with and without headphones. There are some pretty lucid reviews coming out about this cd. Thanks for the notes.

[coletrickle]

I drove to Elderly yesterday (2 hours plus) to pick up this album...among other things...and listened to it twice on the way back. I listened to it again today. It certainly fulfilled all of my expectations, and is definitely an album I will listen to again and again.

I've been thinking a lot about the argument of instrument. To me the thing that draws me into hearing these pieces performed on mandolin is the symmetry of notes. Where the mandolin may loose a step to a bowed instrument on note expression, to me it gains a note in consistency of sound and perfection of sustain. To me one of the drawing aspects of Bach's music is the mathematical nature of point and counter point. And, to me the mandolin is able to achieve something that a bowed instrument cannot...the perfection of decay between notes. For the slower pieces, perhaps a violin is the ultimate modality of sound...but for the faster pieces that emphasize perfection (like the Fuga from Sonata Number 1), the mandolin is able to achieve a perfect balance of note and sustain. It creates a mesmerizing sound, and while I understand it is not for everyone...it is the way I want to hear it played.

The liner notes to the album talk about the relation between harpsichord and mandolin...and I think that is an apt comparison. I am not a classical musician, nor a very musically educated individual (at least in terms of academic study) but I know what what like, and this is a fine album that should be celebrated for its effort, as well as for the commitment to perfection the artist has put forth.

[CeeCee_C]

I just downloaded it, and am listening to it even as we "speak". It's beautiful.

[Bernie Daniel]

...To me the thing that draws me into hearing these pieces performed on mandolin is the symmetry of notes. Where the mandolin may loose a step to a bowed instrument on note expression, to me it gains a note in consistency of sound and perfection of sustain. To me one of the drawing aspects of Bach's music is the mathematical nature of point and counter point. And, to me the mandolin is able to achieve something that a bowed instrument cannot...the perfection of decay between notes. For the slower pieces, perhaps a violin is the ultimate modality of sound...but for the faster pieces that emphasize perfection (like the Fuga from Sonata Number 1), the mandolin is able to achieve a perfect balance of note and sustain. It creates a mesmerizing sound,....

I think that is pithy. You've successfully turned the argument around full circle.

And really I think you are absolutely right.

Yes the mandolin has little sustain (compared to a guitar or piano) but the violin has essentially NO sustain except that which the violinist puts into it with his bow -- as soon as his motion stops the sound stops (I realize that might well be desirable at times).

With the mandolin the sustain is "fixed" and constant (a function of the instrument) and you point out, correctly I think, that in some works that uniformity of sustain contributes an order to the music that is pleasing to the ear.

[Sterling]

If you are a purist, you will be offended. If you have heard other versions such as the Bach cello suites played on trombone or French horn it is either a novelty or eye opener or both! I enjoy this recording both for the novelty, technique, and approach. It is in my permanent collection.

[Bernie Daniel]

If you are a purist, you will be offended....

You could be right but who are these purists who would be offended? No matter how pure they are they are not Johann Sebastian Bach. Only Bach composed the work so only he himself could be offended I guess.

All these lesser mortals, the musicians and critics, may not like what they hear but what right do they have to be offended?

That strikes me as over-reach or arrogance as none are the appointed guardians of Bach as far as I know.

[shortymack]

I'd like to see these offended purists play Bach on the mando as well as CT does. Then they can spout off all they want and I'd listen.

[OldSausage]

Anyway, I can't stop listening to this recording. I suspect just listening to it makes you a better player. Well, to be frank, I'm counting on it ;)

[Tavy]

Anyway, I can't stop listening to this recording. I suspect just listening to it makes you a better player. Well, to be frank, I'm counting on it ;)

Ah yes, in my own head I'm a better player already.... of course I'm a notoriously bad judge ;)

[M.Marmot]

Waouh - circle the wagon boys the golden calf is being critiqued!

Theres a high-fallutin' classical conspiracy in the footing too - well thats o-kay we did not want to play with no classical repetoire anyway we'll take our mandolins an go home (snif)

With respects to Mr. Garber's request that the thread does not turn into a bonfire of an ambiguous critique i'd still like to add, that i found the review fair but flawed... certainly not deserving of the outright scorn being lauded here.

First, a quick glance at Mr. Cowart's, the reviewers, article list can quickly disabuse anyone of their accusations of hoity-toity classical bias - the man has reviews of experimental techno, jazz, and hip hop and rock for goodness sake. Second, he sure does drop the ball a few times on the filler pieces - but he does situate Mr. Thile along with Bach, Gould, Ma, Meyer - and yes, rather awkwardly Fleck and who here would not think that an appropriate roster to help situate this album?

Besides, i find it rankles me when folks spend too much time nitpicking and avoiding the main argument - that's right up there with spell-checking and grammar faulting - Mr. Cowart's article may not win him many accolades for it's quality but that does not negate entirely his critique or opinion of the album.

And as for his opinion of the article?

What does he say there that Mr. Thile himself does not already articulate in his interviews?

There is a trade off when you approach the pieces with a mandolin instead of a violin - some pieces suffer, some gain - there's a confrontation of expectations but ultimately it is all worth the 'remarkable and ambitious undertaking'.

When Mr. Thile is saying these things he is thoughtful and considered when Mr Cowart is saying these things he is apparently the scion of the classical purist cabal.

In the end of it Mr Cowart's review really differs simply because he offers his opinion as a listener - when the album threatens to become to clinical there are musical fireworks to alleviate that, one piece, in his opinion, is a little too slow - hardly damning stuff.

In my opinion where he really lets himself down is here 'Whether the second volume expands on this achievement is unlikely' if there is one thing that Mr. Thile has shown is that he is always ready to surprise and so i would not so easily write future projects off without a listen.

I know there are people here who are in awe of Mr. Thile, his talent and his projects - but is it not better to try and keep our heads when someone somewhere offers an opinion that he is a very good but not the be all and end all of everything?

Rather than bundling everything up and rushing home in a huff -refusing to play with those rough sorts - how about we let the album get its fair share of knocks and bruises without getting hysterical?

Thats how projects are we make them, we care for them, then we send out into the world where they must take care of themselves - and do they call? Never? Phone home? No. A little mail maybe? I should be so lucky...

[Bernie Daniel]

Waouh - circle the wagon boys the golden calf is being critiqued!

Interesting review of the reviews. But I is the golden calf that 1) you can't critique Chirs Thiele; or is it the idol 2) "of course these pieces can't really be played on a mandolin"?


...First, a quick glance at Mr. Cowart's, the reviewers, article list can quickly disabuse anyone of their accusations of hoity-toity classical bias - the man has reviews of experimental techno, jazz, and hip hop and rock for goodness sake. Second, he sure does drop the ball a few times on the filler pieces - but he does situate Mr. Thile along with Bach, Gould, Ma, Meyer - and yes, rather awkwardly Fleck and who here would not think that an appropriate roster to help situate this album?....

Your defense of Mr. Cowart, the reviewer is good! Maybe he has some redeeming features after all! :)


....There is a trade off when you approach the pieces with a mandolin instead of a violin - some pieces suffer, some gain - there's a confrontation of expectations but ultimately it is all worth the 'remarkable and ambitious undertaking'.....

Yes a trade off -- but Cowart does not deal with the positive aspects of that trade off does he? Of course he might not see any and that's his call.

[tablaninja]

Just heard this on NPR's Weekend Edition. Doesn't look like playback will be up till noon, but here's the link.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2013/08/11/210524386/chris-thile-looks-back-to-bach

[Scott Tichenor]

Waouh - circle the wagon boys the golden calf is being critiqued!.

I read a few of his other reviews. Equally skilled. Bottom line for me is he's not someone that should be doing reviews without a seasoned editor guiding and correcting mistakes. Little more than that. The fact it's on a web site that gets way, way, way less traffic and readership than the Cafe is another indicator of the insignificance of the piece. I have no problem with the criticism--I have a problem with so many significant glaring errors that I can't take it seriously. That's it. I like to do restaurant reviews on a popular food blogging site but that doesn't make me Jeffrey Steingarten.

This is getting far too much attention.

But, this is the internet. No matter how bad, foul, or just plain wrong something is, there's always the champion of the other side of the argument. Carry on. You have your work cut out defending this one but you might just be the person for the job now that the topic is clear off the tracks.

[Sterling]

You could be right but who are these purists who would be offended? No matter how pure they are they are not Johann Sebastian Bach. Only Bach composed the work so only he himself could be offended I guess.

All these lesser mortals, the musicians and critics, may not like what they hear but what right do they have to be offended?

That strikes me as over-reach or arrogance as none are the appointed guardians of Bach as far as I know.
Hi Bernie,

I was thinking of the people who only use instruments of Bach's era with that period's tuning, A=415, baroque ornamentation, etc. who would take offense to this album. You are right about over reach and arrogance.

[M.Marmot]

No harm meant - and i have no more defence of the review, after this i'll contribute no more on it.

I just thought the reaction was a bit over the top - and spake my two cents.

Its done - besides its not hard to get the topic back on track...

Mr. Thile's album has been released - a lot of people are finding a lot of good things to say about it - have you got it yet?

If so what do you think?

If not are you looking forward to getting it?

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, M.Marmot for putting into words some of my thoughts on the subject. I was starting to avoid this thread for some of the comments relating to classical snobbery. Granted, that snobbery certainly does exist but OTOH there are some of us in the folk/bluegrass/old time worlds who can also be accused of similar crimes. Imagine, for instance, if some super classical violinist put out a recording of the compositions of William S. Monroe. I can hear some true snickering of the bluegrass critical community for "stilted rhythms", "lack of soul" or "overly precious tonality" and how dare that player cross the line into our territory.

In any case-- and on a positive note -- I am enjoying Thile's exploration of Bach and I would say, welcome to yet another rendition and interpretation of this illustrious work by an excellent player of our beloved instrument.

[tablaninja]

Hahaha!!! I can't wait to use "overly precious tonality" at our next band rehearsal. We are a mix of European classical, North Indian classical, bluegrass and just plain rock'n'roll musicians. We get all kinds of harsh critiques but we're having a blast. Three cheers for Chris Thile going with his heart.

[Tom Wright]

If there is some musical truth in Bach that needs discovering it's just as likely to be found in Thile's rendition of the E major Prelude as in Walter Carlos' "Switched-On Bach" (which I loved). The point should not be what is the right way, but whether the player is both exploring the music for a personal statement and also in demonstrating the possibility of virtuosity. Thile achieves both goals, I'd say. His graceful speed is jaw-dropping and the sweet tone is always pleasing, and the pieces I have heard sound well-explored and solidly conceived.

I can say I like something to be different than what I am hearing, and I do say that often when hearing Yo-Yo Ma, or even Maxim Vengerov, but I am still thrilled with their virtuosity. And you can also hear that the player has spent long enough with a piece to have a considered and coherent concept. I do not hear this from Lang Lang on piano, although he is high on the virtuoso scale. I still hear it from Itzakh Perlman, even though he now struggles to control the bow---his style is so juicy and expressive that it carries the day.

Thile is young and has already arrived at the heights, with his incredible skill and creativity. I saved a recording of his concerto, performed at Carnegie. It's a fine piece, more satisfying than a lot of modern compositions I have had to suffer through, and not opaque while still being modern. I expect more great offerings from him, especially if he branches out from his F5 to 10-string and/or 5-string electric.;)

[mandolino maximus]

Go to a concert if one is available. It will have something for anyone looking for enjoyment, dissection, or just to satisfy a sense of curiosity. You can always watch an Apollo rocket launch on video, but to be there is an experience. If nothing else, there's the suspense of whether it will blow up on lift off - but then, the Apollos never did do that even though the occasional engine wouldn't fire. And that's the way it is with Thile and this ongoing project.

[mrmando]

It is nice to be compared to Heifetz, even if you suffer by comparison. But in a way, that isn't the point. Thile isn't the first mandolinist to tackle these works and he won't be the last. The ideal review would be one that considers how this recording compares to other recordings of Bach on mandolin. Perhaps a critic will come along someday who's well informed enough to write THAT review, but don't hold your breath. It is the first significant recording of these pieces on a Loar AFAIK, and the tonal differences between this and other Bach mando-CDs ought to be worthy of comment.

In the NPR interview, Thile talks about his approach to an Andante movement, and says he tries to compensate for the instrument's lack of sustain by building a long, sustained crescendo to maintain interest. So he's certainly aware of the issues Mr. Cowart tries to raise.

I agree with Scott: Mr. Cowart is in dire need of an editor.

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks, M.Marmot for putting into words some of my thoughts on the subject. I was starting to avoid this thread for some of the comments relating to classical snobbery. Granted, that snobbery certainly does exist but OTOH there are some of us in the folk/bluegrass/old time worlds who can also be accused of similar crimes. Imagine, for instance, if some super classical violinist put out a recording of the compositions of William S. Monroe. I can hear some true snickering of the bluegrass critical community for "stilted rhythms", "lack of soul" or "overly precious tonality" and how dare that player cross the line into our territory.

In any case-- and on a positive note -- I am enjoying Thile's exploration of Bach and I would say, welcome to yet another rendition and interpretation of this illustrious work by an excellent player of our beloved instrument.

Jim and M. Marmot I totally agree "...that snobbery certainly does exist but OTOH there are some of us in the folk/bluegrass/old time worlds who can also be accused of similar crimes."

For sure and shouldn't Irish Traditional also be given special recognition for its unbending adherence to -- well traditional! LOL

I was in a little group once years ago and the leader wanted to "arrange" a Bob Dylan tune and the bass player who was classically trained objected and said there is nothing to that song to arrange".

Anyway, I just think it is funny to see the shoe on the other foot.

But it is this way with everything and as Scot mentioned it's the internet. Instead of clipping my fingernails I am rendering another paragraph to this string and making a point that might be just a waste of electrons and I've used up some of my life for it. It won't change the world but we are all having fun right? Having fun is better than not having it.

On your last point: "I am enjoying Thile's exploration of Bach and I would say, welcome to yet another rendition and interpretation of this illustrious work by an excellent player of our beloved instrument."

How could anyone argue with that?

[SternART]

Imagine, for instance, if some super classical violinist put out a recording of the compositions of William S. Monroe. I can hear some true snickering of the bluegrass critical community for "stilted rhythms", "lack of soul" or "overly precious tonality" and how dare that player cross the line into our territory.

Good point Jim, you certainly get that kind of critique when classical players record jazz. I'm glad there are purists in various genres, for a point of reference, and also pleased when the definitions are challenged.

I think this is part of why Edgar Meyer's crossover recordings where he takes incredibly skilled players from different genres and mixes them together, have been successful.
Mixing Yo Yo Ma and Mark O'Conner, or Joshua Bell with Mike Marshall & Sam Bush. Leading up to the more recent Goat Rodeo Sessions with Thile,Stuart Duncan & Yo Yo Ma. Great music from great players, from different genres. It seems to have cross pollinated and produced a hybrid.

In those cases it got listeners of folk music to listen to classical players & introduced the likes of O'Conner, Marshall, Bush, & Duncan to classical audiences.

Chris Thile will bring attention to Bach, possibly younger listeners who might not think they even like classical music will check it out, and will also bring attention to the mandolin which we already know is a much cooler instrument than the general public realizes.

[JEStanek]

I grew up hearing plenty of Classical (all periods) on NPR, enjoyed the Swingle Singers Jazz Sebastian Bach (still do) from my parent's record collection. I can't wait to hear this one. Purity is great but as a biologist, I like hybrid vigor, too! ;)

Jamie

[OldSausage]

But it is this way with everything and as Scot mentioned it's the internet. Instead of clipping my fingernails I am rendering another paragraph to this string and making a point that might be just a waste of electrons and I've used up some of my life for it. It won't change the world but we are all having fun right? Having fun is better than not having it.


Absolutely. It seems a bit odd to blame the space for what it contains.

[Brandon Flynn]

It is nice to be compared to Heifetz, even if you suffer by comparison. But in a way, that isn't the point. Thile isn't the first mandolinist to tackle these works and he won't be the last. The ideal review would be one that considers how this recording compares to other recordings of Bach on mandolin. Perhaps a critic will come along someday who's well informed enough to write THAT review, but don't hold your breath. It is the first significant recording of these pieces on a Loar AFAIK, and the tonal differences between this and other Bach mando-CDs ought to be worthy of comment.

In the NPR interview, Thile talks about his approach to an Andante movement, and says he tries to compensate for the instrument's lack of sustain by building a long, sustained crescendo to maintain interest. So he's certainly aware of the issues Mr. Cowart tries to raise.

I agree with Scott: Mr. Cowart is in dire need of an editor.

That would be a nice review and more purposeful perhaps to compare it with other mando recordings than violin. But the sound is so different in the classical mando world and world of Loars that I don't see it likely that there would be many reviewers who could manage to bridge the gap and evaluate the recording vs. others in the classical mando vein with any sort of neutrality. Even with a technical knowledge of the nature of acoustics, I feel like it's still very hard to separate the tone of the instrument (the part that is a non-negotiable fact) from your impression of the playing. If you prefer the sound of a bowlback over a Loar, it will be very hard to analyze Thile's rendition fairly. I certainly have a hard time getting past a preference for the F5 when I listen to classical mandolinists. It would be more of an apples and oranges comparison than not in my opinion. Could be fun, but it would be a review which I would hope to not see any real attempts at objective value judgments on which recording is musically superior...

[Brandon Flynn]

Also, just a thought, but maybe a thread could be started for user reviews of the album? Did a little looking and haven't found one yet. Since this thread started as just an expression of enthusiasm at receiving the cd and then became...well, I don't know.

[tablaninja]

Although this is not a user review, I found it a lot more in depth than most.

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/174171-chris-thile-bach-sonatas-and-partitas-vol.-1/

[mrmando]

Mr. Ezell is a better writer than Mr. Cowart, and I think his piece speaks more to the CD's expected audience. It manages to account for the tonal differences between a mandolin and a violin without coming across as a putdown of the former.

There are still a few clunky turns of phrase -- "prodigious instrumentation" (Whaddaya mean? There's only one instrument!); "composers of [Thile's] ilk" (Thile-as-composer is irrelevant here, because these aren't his compositions); "Thile's selection of pieces is wise" (Um ... I thought the point here was that he's doing ALL of the Sonatas and Partitas in two volumes, not that he had "selected" some of them). And I could live without the first two paragraphs of the review altogether. The Punch Brothers explicitly and emphatically, and Nickel Creek almost as much, have eschewed the "bluegrass" label, and I don't know why reviewers keep applying that term to bands who insist that they don't want it.

[OldSausage]

I agree: I was going to say that I thought the whole review was pompous and overblown, used big words the author didn't quite understand, and far worse, was entirely vacant of all meaning. But then I remembered: it was a CD review. If it wasn't all of those things, it would never have got published.

[mrmando]

Well, it needed an editor in a different way, methought: to trim some fat, but maybe fat is what PopMatters readers want. For all of that, I wouldn't say it is entirely vacant of meaning. I thought it was complimentary and insightful.

[OldSausage]

For example:


Quiet passages—especially in the Adagio movement of the G minor Sonata and the Andante of the A minor Sonata—are really quiet when a mandolin is involved. This naturally makes the passages of relative volume, such as the breathtakingly dexterous opening to the Presto of the G minor Sonata, all the more powerful.

So, quiet things are quiet, while, loud things, why, they are really loud, especially after quiet things.

[Jim Garber]

That would be a nice review and more purposeful perhaps to compare it with other mando recordings than violin. But the sound is so different in the classical mando world and world of Loars that I don't see it likely that there would be many reviewers who could manage to bridge the gap and evaluate the recording vs. others in the classical mando vein with any sort of neutrality. Even with a technical knowledge of the nature of acoustics, I feel like it's still very hard to separate the tone of the instrument (the part that is a non-negotiable fact) from your impression of the playing. If you prefer the sound of a bowlback over a Loar, it will be very hard to analyze Thile's rendition fairly. I certainly have a hard time getting past a preference for the F5 when I listen to classical mandolinists. It would be more of an apples and oranges comparison than not in my opinion. Could be fun, but it would be a review which I would hope to not see any real attempts at objective value judgments on which recording is musically superior...

Hmmmm... I have to truly think on this one. I wonder how many reviewers of classical music have trouble distinguishing their subjective preference for, say, a Guaneri violin over a Strad, or a Busendorfer over a Steinway piano. i would think that anyone with a refined ear can hear the difference in playing technique, phrasing dynamics and the emotional context of the music regardless of what instrument the player is playing. Just my dos centavos.

[mrmando]

So, quiet things are quiet, while, loud things, why, they are really loud, especially after quiet things.Tee hee. I did appreciate his observation that changing the instrument seemed to him to alter the mood of the G minor movement.

I have to wonder who he's thinking of when he characterizes bluegrass as "old men with beards." Beards are the exception in bluegrass, not the rule. Among first-generation grassers, Sonny Osborne is the only hirsute chap I can think of.

[BradKlein]

105361

[Dagger Gordon]

This is what happens when a bunch of cellists have a 'seisun'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtRZGR3gSCs

[Jim Garber]

Excellent, Dagger, but how do they feel about Bach played on the mandolin? :)

[Brandon Flynn]

Hmmmm... I have to truly think on this one. I wonder how many reviewers of classical music have trouble distinguishing their subjective preference for, say, a Guaneri violin over a Strad, or a Busendorfer over a Steinway piano. i would think that anyone with a refined ear can hear the difference in playing technique, phrasing dynamics and the emotional context of the music regardless of what instrument the player is playing. Just my dos centavos.

With the Guaneri/Strad thing, a lot of the tone quality of the instrument comes down to the instrument itself, but then bow technique and intonation can play into that as well if I'm not mistaken. The tone of a mandolin is also affected(effected? never get that one!) by the pick choice, angle of attack, etc. as you know. I feel like at the very least someone would have to have a pretty intimate knowledge of classical mandolins and F5s to do this well. I've never played a bowlback or classical mandolin, but I imagine the smaller scale presents unique challenges, advantages, and limitations. And that in itself could affect so much of an album like this, as Thile has talked about many of the choices he made being to play to his mandolin's strength. But I would love to see someone try a review if they had working knowledge of both instruments!

[brunello97]

Hmmmm... I have to truly think on this one. I wonder how many reviewers of classical music have trouble distinguishing their subjective preference for, say, a Guaneri violin over a Strad, or a Busendorfer over a Steinway piano. i would think that anyone with a refined ear can hear the difference in playing technique, phrasing dynamics and the emotional context of the music regardless of what instrument the player is playing. Just my dos centavos.


Por unos pocos centavos más.

Amigo, I think the Strad v Guarneri comp is a red herring. That comparison might be valid in the case of comping a Loar v a Gilchrist (or a old Embergher v a new Gummihalsdorfer.) But the Loar v "Your Favorite Bowlback Here" is a far different comp. Steinway v ARP, maybe.

The entire reason this conversation is even happening is because 1.) a guy not in the 'classical music club' is stepping up and 2.) he's playing it on a different instrument that most classical mando wanks have either no experience doing the George Michael with or have simply written off as ____________. We see it around here all the time. "You can't play X on a Y!"

It is almost a hundred years since the folks at Gibson developed these mandolins certainly with the intention of playing classical music. They got usurped by a guy in a funny hat that was that. Now we have an extremely skilled player putting out a well recorded version of some classical schlagers. Having a 'refined ear' and a 'clear head' and 'good writing skills' seems (to me) beyond the scope of the reviews I've read about this so far. When somebody threatens some sub-group's self-defined expertise the bluster comes out. We may get some decent reviews of this or maybe not. I'm not holding my breath (and have pretty much stopped reading them.)

Writing about music is like writing about music. You actually can dance about architecture. ;) We do it all the time.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

First of all, I don't recall anyone mentioning another American virtuoso who has also played Bach on a Loar:

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Bach Partita #3 appears on the album Gator Strut (http://www.last.fm/music/Mike+Marshall/Gator+Strut) issued way back in 1984.

In addition, I would not say that it is a sole comparison of Loar (or any other carved mandolin) vs. a bowlback -- polar opposites most of us would agree. Yes, some classical players play bowlbacks but I hesitate to even consider them in the majority. Lyon & Healy mandolins, Kermans among others. Marissa Carroll on a L&H B:

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On top of all of this discussion, most of the classical mandolinists I know may have their particular preferences for instruments and tones but in some ways they are less absolute than many bluegrass players who must have an F5 to play their music. I believe that Marrissa Carroll her cohorts down under as well as the Israeli mandolinists with their Kermans are no considered any less for playing their particular instruments and are judged by their playing.

I truly don't see this general bias toward bowlbacks as the only instrument for playing classical mandolin.

[JeffD]

- Mr. Cowart's article may not win him many accolades for it's quality but that does not negate entirely his critique or opinion of the album.

And as for his opinion of the article?

What does he say there that Mr. Thile himself does not already articulate in his interviews?

There is a trade off when you approach the pieces with a mandolin instead of a violin - some pieces suffer, some gain - there's a confrontation of expectations but ultimately it is all worth the 'remarkable and ambitious undertaking'.
...

Yep.

I tried to read it from the perspective of someone who first heard of Thile on NPR and never conceived of a mandolin - and, technical and factual gaffs aside, I thought it captured what someone not intimate with the mandolin or Thile but conversant with Bach would want to know in considering purchasing the CD.

[JeffD]

I'd like to see these offended purists play Bach on the mando as well as CT does. Then they can spout off all they want and I'd listen.

Its not an athletic competition. Lots of musicians have played Bach on lots of instruments with equally virtuoso technique, CT is only different in that we know his instrument from the player point of view, and we have followed his career and other music.

At my level of playing I would MUCH rather make a run the Bach P&S with a mandolin than a violin. (In either case I would do a pretty poor job of it, though it would be fun.)

[foldedpath]

The entire reason this conversation is even happening is because 1.) a guy not in the 'classical music club' is stepping up and 2.) he's playing it on a different instrument that most classical mando wanks have either no experience doing the George Michael with or have simply written off as ____________. We see it around here all the time. "You can't play X on a Y!"


I think it's a different conversation from the perspective of a classical music reviewer, although the conversation here on the forum has mostly shifted onto that defensive ground, for obvious reasons.

In the classical world, the composer's intent is honored in a way that is different from most other genres. Bach wrote these pieces for the violin, not for the harpsichord or any other instrument. Presumably, he was thinking of the violin's timbre and sustain when he constructed the music. From a classical musician or reviewer's perspective, I think it's totally legitimate to tackle the question of "how well does it work on this other instrument, that the music wasn't written for?" Thile himself explores those same questions in his interviews about the project.

If someone recorded an acoustic mandolin album of Hendrix music, it might also be brilliant, but at some point we'd probably be talking about how well a piece like "Purple Haze" translates from distorted electric guitar phrasing to mandolin phrasing.

Now, this doesn't let anyone off the hook for writing a contradictory and poorly written review. I agree with all that's been said about that one review, in particular. But I think we need to allow the question, and not just assume that every single piece of music out there in the world can always be 100% successfully translated to mandolin.

[brunello97]

You've to fight for your right to Partit(a).

Relative to this discussion it seems like it is pretty irrelevant whether bluegrass players get huffy about what instruments they do or don't play. "Just because they're doing it doesn't mean you can...." or whatever my mama would say. What constitutes a majority? How many Euro classical mandolins are playing arch tops? We've heard from numerous voices here.

Mike's GS album certainly was way under the critical radar at the time (no blog wanks to contend with). The Bach piece was certainly a toss off relative to the work being discussed here. But the man is nothing but a smooth operator. Playing duets with Ms. Lichtenberg will certainly buy you a few props from the Classicos. Maybe Mr. Thile needed to dress in black, slick back his hair and maintain enough gravitas to properly pay his dues. Am I enjoying the opportunity to put a thumb in the eye of the Beholden? Of course.

Was just listening to Tony Rice's "Jerusalem Ridge" this AM. Does it sound better on the violin break, the mando break or the guitar break? What would Kenny Ba(ch)er think? I played along on my Vega bowl.

Play Bach on the tuba. Relax and enjoy. Give it time. Resist the urge to (quickly and constantly) critique.

Mick

[tablaninja]

Well now, what about the mandolin concert that Chris composed? It wasn't released on CD and only had a limited performance run as far as I know. One of our percussionist plays with the Winston Salem orchestra and was part of Chris's performance here in NC. My buddy said that the whole orchestra had a blast working with him and had nothing but praise for what he was doing. In fact, he said it was one of his best experiences with a guest artist. As an encore he played one of the Partita movements and apparently the violin section couldn't stop talking about how awesome it was. There is a full recording of that concert online here
http://youtu.be/VxwEQlYN-OA

Part 2 is here

http://youtu.be/K4IhZwboiYM

And the encore which starts out with one of my favorite Thile quotes.

http://youtu.be/ADtJqVMtA-M

Enjoy!

[JeffD]

In the classical world, the composer's intent is honored in a way that is different from most other genres. Bach wrote these pieces for the violin, not for the harpsichord or any other instrument. Presumably, he was thinking of the violin's timbre and sustain when he constructed the music. From a classical musician or reviewer's perspective, I think it's totally legitimate to tackle the question of "how well does it work on this other instrument, that the music wasn't written for?" Thile himself explores those same questions in his interviews about the project..

I am not an expert on the history, but I do recall reading something about both Bach and about Mozart, that they both are known to have thought about the possibilities of their music being played on other instruments, even instruments not yet invented. In the case of Bach I remember something about him teaching the lifting music from the instrument itself, lifted by the universality of the rules and 'mathematics' of the music's construction and letting it land legitimately on other, even future instruments.

I have also read a modern music professor, somewhere, talking about how portable Bach is, in general, (he talked about marimba and steel drum), and that portability was deliberate.

Might be a spurious memories.

I am not disagreeing with you, just remember the forward thinking of some composers, specifically Bach and Mozart.

[foldedpath]

I am not disagreeing with you, just remember the forward thinking of some composers, specifically Bach and Mozart.

You may be right, I'm not enough of a classical scholar to know either. The fact that so many non-violinists have interpreted Bach on other instruments over the years, does speak to the portability of the music.

There are violin pieces written by other composers, especially in the modern era, where one could probably make a stronger case that... "'ya know, you really shouldn't attempt this on anything but a violin."

A few years ago I engineered a demo CD recording of a young violinist with piano accompaniment. One of the Bartok pieces she played was done entirely in bowed harmonics... very spooky and ethereal. Maybe it's my failure of imagination, but I can't imagine that piece on mandolin.

[tablaninja]

Here's a video fresh off the presses.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0YeTjJa-WQ&sns=em

[Wolfboy]

In the classical world, the composer's intent is honored in a way that is different from most other genres. Bach wrote these pieces for the violin, not for the harpsichord or any other instrument. Presumably, he was thinking of the violin's timbre and sustain when he constructed the music. From a classical musician or reviewer's perspective, I think it's totally legitimate to tackle the question of "how well does it work on this other instrument, that the music wasn't written for?" Thile himself explores those same questions in his interviews about the project.

If someone recorded an acoustic mandolin album of Hendrix music, it might also be brilliant, but at some point we'd probably be talking about how well a piece like "Purple Haze" translates from distorted electric guitar phrasing to mandolin phrasing.

Now, this doesn't let anyone off the hook for writing a contradictory and poorly written review. I agree with all that's been said about that one review, in particular. But I think we need to allow the question, and not just assume that every single piece of music out there in the world can always be 100% successfully translated to mandolin.

Bach himself transcribed Violin Partita No. 3 for lute (BWV 1006a), Violin Sonata No. 2 for harpsichord (BWV 964), and the fugue from Violin Sonata No. 1 for lute (BWV 1000, unless you subscribe to Nigel North's contention that that transcription is by Weyrauch). There are also written accounts by eyewitnesses of Bach performing his own solo violin works on harpsichord, adding as much bass as he felt necessary. And of course there's Cello Suite No. 5 in C Minor, which also exists as a lute suite in G minor. (The latter in Bach's own hand, the former in manuscripts by Anna Magdelena Bach and by Johann Peter Kellner - nobody seems to know for sure which version came first but they're both obviously from Bach's own time and inner circle.) All of which pretty much explodes the idea that Bach's music can or should only be played on the instruments for which it was "intended," since the great man himself moved it around and experimented with it all the time.

Just wanted to add that to the discussion before we got any further down the path of supposed instrumental legitimacy...everyone's welcome to their own opinions of Thile's or anybody else's interpretation of Bach, but the idea that Bach works are somehow less "pure" or "authentic" or whatever played on instruments other than the ones they were originally scored for is refuted by Bach's own practice. That's all...carry on...

[Jim Garber]

Mike's GS album certainly was way under the critical radar at the time (no blog wanks to contend with). The Bach piece was certainly a toss off relative to the work being discussed here. But the man is nothing but a smooth operator. Playing duets with Ms. Lichtenberg will certainly buy you a few props from the Classicos.

I recall an interview with MM at that time saying that he was putting in lots of time in playing the S&Ps on mandolin. I doubt BTW that his marriage to Ms. Lichtenberg was solely intended to curry favor with the classical crowd, tho I assume, Mick, you are mostly joking about that.

Frankly, I would love to hear actual criticisms from the classical community indicating this negativity toward Chris' CD. I have yet to see any reviews that dished Thile's recording from mainstream or even minor classical critics. Can anyone link to one?


I am not disagreeing with you, just remember the forward thinking of some composers, specifically Bach and Mozart.

I seem to recall that Segovia's repertoire on guitar included his own transcriptions of Bach and an arrangement of the Chaconne and that the guitar as a classical instrument interpreting music not composed for it was questioned critically at that time by the classical community. Anybody have any direct sources for that fact?

[Jim Garber]

On the subject of purity, Bach and the like: my observation would be that without transcriptions the general repertoire of classical mandolin, certainly as of the early 20th century, would be quite dismal. IMHO, there really is very little truly interesting music specifically composed for the mandolin. I also don't know of any classical players even now who don't play at least some transcriptions of music composed for other instruments.

BTW for the ultimate purist playing Bach's S&Ps on a modern violin at A440 would be verboten.

[Paul Kotapish]

Even among violinists, there is a considerable range of often cranky opinions about the proper instruments setup (neck angle, string composition, tuning pitch), bow (modern or Baroque), and performance technique (articulation, bowing, ornaments, vibrato) for Bach and other Baroque and earlier composers.

Towards a Performance History of the Sonatas and Partitas (http://www.academia.edu/957041/Towards_a_Performance_History_of_Bachs_Sonatas_and _Partitas_for_Solo_Violin_Preliminary_Investigatio ns)

Here's a famous exchange between the Tafalmusik ensemble and Pinchas Zukerman (http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/WA-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A3=ind0004&L=CLASSICAL&E=0&P=370982&B=--&T=text%2Fplain&header=1) re modern performances of Baroque music.

We can probably guess where Zukerman might come down on the Thile recording.

I think Thile's interpretation of the music sounds great, and for my ear, those pieces are entirely appropriate on all manner of stringed instruments--single course, double course, archtop, bowlback, or otherwise. My guess is that those pieces would sound pretty cool on a marimba ensemble, too.

And in case anyone is still counting, I have several sets of the S&Ps on both period and modern instruments.

[bratsche]

Even among violinists, there is a considerable range of often cranky opinions about the proper instruments setup (neck angle, string composition, tuning pitch), bow (modern or Baroque), and performance technique (articulation, bowing, ornaments, vibrato) for Bach and other Baroque and earlier composers.

And you simply haven't lived if you've missed out on reading a violin forum free-for-all over the merits (or lack thereof) of using a chinrest in baroque music and/or a shoulder-rest in any music. That can make most things on this forum seem very tame by comparison!

bratsche

[Dagger Gordon]

Well my copy arrived today.

As far as I am concerned this is an absolutely monumental, completely staggering album.
I'm completely blown away by it.

Tremendous congratulations to Chris.

[greg_tsam]

PBS did a great interview right here. I laughed at CT's perspective and enjoyed every second of it.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/july-dec13/mandolin_08-05.html

[M.Marmot]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/reviews/album-review-chris-thile-bach-sonatas-and-partitas-vol-1-nonesuch-8752851.html

A short but florid review by The Independent's Andy Gill

'Once again, the protean malleability of J.S. Bach's genius is demonstrated by the unusual transcription of his work - in this case, the Violin Sonatas and Partitas - to another instrument, the mandolin. The Punch Brothers' mandolin virtuoso Chris Thile was first drawn to Bach by the rhythmic “groove” of Glenn Gould's 1981 re-recording of The Goldberg Variations. Thile's country and improv roots lend more rubato accents than some might prefer, but he liberates the pieces from their conservatoire corsets. The dazzling deftness of his fingering in the Presto and Double Presto sections evokes a kind of giddy delirium and his feathery technique wrests the tenderest of emotions from the second Sonata's Andante.'

[Andrew DeMarco]

Hearing this stuff done on bluegrass instrumentation made me go get and listen to more famous recordings (or at least the most popular on iTunes!). That is to say, starting with Fleck's Perpetual Motion, then Into the Cauldron and Live Duets made me seek out mainstream recordings of these pieces, which I've enjoyed over the year. They're all on violin, which is not surprising. After all, this music is written for solo violin.

But when I hear the pieces on violin, I think one of the limitations to understanding or feeling the music does have to do with the instrumentation. I'm a mediocre at best mandolinist and the last time I held a fiddle I think I cracked the owner's living room windows. I don't understand how to play a violin.

Having Thile do these Bach pieces on mandolin -- an F style mandolin -- not a meek weapon, feels like it gives me the opportunity to better understand the music. I feel like I hear the music more intensely because I experience echos of muscle memory when I pay attention. I can feel what Thile is doing with his hands, especially his right hand. I can't do what he's doing technically, but I know when fingers are engaged to pull as much sustain as possible from the notes in the Am Grave, and I can feel the exact energy that goes into whacking the chords in the Tempo di Borea: I can hear the deliberateness of the dynamics of the harder whacks versus the lighter whacks.

In other words, I feel like my familiarity with the mandolin (this is the mando cafe after all!) allows me to experience Bach on this album in a multimodal way that I am not able to when it's played on violin.

This album is great, and I can't wait for the next release with the Chaconne.

[Ken_P]

Getting back to this recording, I have a few thoughts which I don't think have been brought up here yet.

I think the A minor Sonata is by far the most successful of the three pieces on the album. I fully enjoy all three, of course, but while I have some (relatively minor) issues with the first two, I really love the A minor. I think it's probably the least remarked upon of the 6 in general, so maybe that helps, but listening closely to all four movements, I just love what he did with it. I don't have much to comment on in the first movement, so I'll start with the fugue. For all the hubub the early release of the G minor fugue caused, I've yet to hear anyone talk about this one. The tempo is much more reasonable, and the whole thing really fits nicely on mandolin. Maybe it's the nature of the writing - the A minor emphasizes the rhythm a little more strongly, and there are fewer very dense chordal passages - both play to the strength of the instrument.

Many people have remarked on the beauty of the Andante, and I fully agree - it's gorgeous. It's always been one of my favorite Bach movements to play on mandolin, and this performance just cements that in my mind.

Finally, the concluding Allegro may be my favorite track on the album. The tempo is perfect - plenty fast for impressive picking, but not so much that you start to loose the thread of the piece and the inner voices can really sing out. The Presto of the B minor runs into that problem somewhat, as incredible as the raw speed of it may be. This version makes me think those not playing it with a pick are really missing out. Chris manages to combine a wonderfully driving attack, while also maintaining phenomenal tonal control. Listen to the way he lets the high and low notes ring out in the middle of some of those long runs. I can hardly imagine it being done better.

[Brandon Flynn]

Here's a video fresh off the presses.


He has a short memory lapse on that one. Watched the whole sonata, not up to his usual technical standards those performances. Don't get me wrong, still very good, but he also kind of messes up a chord in the opening movement if I recall correctly. Only other time I've really seen him screw up like that is when I saw him lose his grip on the pick while playing with Edgar Meyer once. Playing all of them in concerts soon will be quite the task. I hope for his sake it is more enjoyable than stressful.

[JeffD]

In other words, I feel like my familiarity with the mandolin (this is the mando cafe after all!) allows me to experience Bach on this album in a multimodal way that I am not able to when it's played on violin.

I think this is very true. We experience the music from inside, so to speak, from the fingers as well as from the ear. That's how it feels to me. And I mostly don't watch music, I listen to it, but the videos of mandolin players playing Bach are fascinating to watch as well, because, as players, we are looking with a trained eye.

[Sterling]

Its not an athletic competition. Lots of musicians have played Bach on lots of instruments with equally virtuoso technique, CT is only different in that we know his instrument from the player point of view, and we have followed his career and other music.

At my level of playing I would MUCH rather make a run the Bach P&S with a mandolin than a violin. (In either case I would do a pretty poor job of it, though it would be fun.)

Hi Jeff,
To some it is an athletic competition. Not saying that is wrong or right, but that is how some people view technique. Myself however want to hear how a phrase is approached and ended, technique or not.

[Tiderider]

After listening to Double Presto would anyone be interested in buying my small fleet of mandolins. Wow is all I can say, very inspirational.

[greg_tsam]

I think this is very true. We experience the music from inside, so to speak, from the fingers as well as from the ear. That's how it feels to me. And I mostly don't watch music, I listen to it, but the videos of mandolin players playing Bach are fascinating to watch as well, because, as players, we are looking with a trained eye.

Otherwise why would we bother to go to live shows at all? But we all know that a live performance is where the magic happens. Can't stop for another take, mistakes are part of the show as well as improvised licks and the energy from the crowd and the performer can be electric when everything is going well.

Sterling talked about athleticism and we shouldn't forget that playing music is a combination of many things. It blends our senses with the ethereal head spaces and the physical body while pitting flesh, plastic, wood and steel against each other to yield something greater. Music makes the world go around and the musician is the conduit not the originator.

Forgive me for waxing poetic but it just came out that way.

[JeffD]

Hi Jeff,
To some it is an athletic competition. .

I agree that it can be athletic. I just think it shouldn't be an athletic competition.

[greg_tsam]

I just got a mental image of a Monty Python sketch with them running a relay race holding mandolins and instead of passing the baton they have to play a break of Rawhide. haha.. I crack myself up. :))

[tmsweeney]

and hence the "Mandolin Cafe Olympics" are born to be held every 4 years - or whenever enough people show up - in Rosine KY.

[kmiller1610]

I'm sure Thile will like you say evolve over time -- he is still a very young player in the bigger picture.

And isn't that an exciting thought? I am enjoying the ride. Funny, but his 12 year old stuff still sounds great to me.

[JEStanek]

Athletic? There's a very good reason the Mandolin Cafe T-shirts say Aesthetic Department!

Jamie

[DougC]

What a big splash this boy has made on mandolin cafe! I'm happy about that.

I was very interested in what image Chris would use on the graphic cover of the CD. Would it be serious? Elite? Funky? Surreal?

How would he approach his audience of music fans? Can he get some respect for mandolins in the larger world of classical music? Or will he have a more difficult time winning over pop music and bluegrass hard-core fans?

I would rather have the music in a brown paper wrapper but I'm a pretty weird guy...I studied printmaking and photography in art school.

As for the music, my baroque violinist wife said it best, "unbelievable!".

[JEStanek]

My copy finally arrived. I have to say it is lovely. I'm no Bach scholar or serious music historian. I feel the playing is expressive and a joy to listen too. It will be often listened to along with Yo-Yo Ma and Mark Bernat's Bach Cello pieces. The test for me is, does the music take me someplace, yes! Does the player or the instrument get in the way? Nope. Lovely... just lovely.

Jamie

[M.Marmot]

I would rather have the music in a brown paper wrapper but I'm a pretty weird guy...I studied printmaking and photography in art school.

.

I mentioned before in another thread that Oliver Jeffers, the artist responsible for the cover, is one of the bright young things taking the illustration world by storm at the moment. I think that his biggest impact so far has been in the world of children's literature where he has developed quite a following.

It makes a certain sense that he was picked to do the cover - and that they avoided trying to subscribe to the percieved notions of what a Bach album should look like. A phonograph randomly placed in a lake blurting out coloured blurbs - stands apart from Mr. Thile sitting sombrely in a studio with is instrument.

I think Mr. Jeffers also lives in New York... i wonder do they know each other?

[bbaker2050]

Somebody posted a video earlier in this thread in which Chris was talking about a Bach "fugue" and he played part of it. I love the way it sounded...can anbody tell me which "fugue" he was playing. Forgive me, I'm not a classical guru.

[Brandon Flynn]

Somebody posted a video earlier in this thread in which Chris was talking about a Bach "fugue" and he played part of it. I love the way it sounded...can anbody tell me which "fugue" he was playing. Forgive me, I'm not a classical guru.
One of two perhaps: the fugue from the G minor sonata or the fugue from the A minor sonata. I would guess you heard the G minor, but a quick listen will probably tell you.

[Paul Haley]

Posted in error and don't know how to delete.

[Paul Haley]

Out of curiosity - just how many of you would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if Mr Thile had not been involved?

Or even, how many would have bought a Bach Sonatas + Partitas album if it was not played on mandolin?

I bought Rachel Podger's double album of the complete sonatas and partitas played on baroque mandolin in 2002. The Thile album is a very welcome addition to my collection. ;)

[BradKlein]

Paul, Can you provide more info on RP's mandolin recordings. I don't find anything via internet search.

[tablaninja]

Here's a nice interview from violinist.com

http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20138/14899/

[Larry S Sherman]

I might be wrong, but Paul probably meant baroque violin (http://www.amazon.com/Violin-Sonatas-Partitas-J-S-Bach/dp/B00000J7YS)?

Larry

[Jim Garber]

Yes, I think he meant violin: Rachel Podger: Bach Complete Sonatas & Partitas (http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Complete-Sonatas-Partitas-Violin/dp/B00006JQU1).

[Randi Gormley]

Hmmmm. I own a couple three editions of the Bach pieces (including Switched-on Bach from when I was a wee college gel), but this is the first one with mandolin. So, to answer M. Marmot's query, yes. I got my copy last week but still haven't heard it because I can't figure out how to play it on our electronic equipment, more's the pity. That's my weekend project. The downloads sent in advance sound pretty entrancing, though.
I remember reading/hearing somewhere that every musician who aspires to the best of his art at some point moves to Bach. Don't know if that's true (or just euro-centric or classical-bias) but it's an interesting concept.

[tablaninja]

I would also recommend listening to Smuel Elbaz. His Sonatas and Partitas CD is really nice. I seem to remember it sounding more like a mandola than mandolin.

[Jim Garber]

I would also recommend listening to Smuel Elbaz. His Sonatas and Partitas CD is really nice. I seem to remember it sounding more like a mandola than mandolin.

I believe that he, like many of his fellow Israeli players, plays a mandolin made by Arik Kerman, a flattop with large body. That might account for that mandola sound.

[Eugene]

Here's a bit I posted in an ongoing thread of the classical section that seems relevant here:


There are so many good [violin] recordings. I would suggest digesting way more than one. If you spend too much time listening to any one to the neglect of others, you're perhaps more likely to begin emulating it than really interpreting the written note. Podger's is interesting in being a very good interpretation on a violin with baroque set up (gut strings, lowish bridge, etc.). John Holloway's (also on baroque violin) is also very good.

. . . and I still have a soft spot for the old Milstein recordings on Deutsche Grammophon.

So many guitarists have indulged in more than a few of these, I won't go on at length here. One guitarist worth mentioning for recording the whole cycle with more than a bit of fire, his bombastic and youthful tone was a little too brassy for my tastes (it got way nicer later in his career), but it's hard to beat the virtuosity of Kazuhito Yamash'ta [censors don't like poor Kazuhito's family name: replace the apostrophe with an "i"].

Many classical mandolinists before Thile have also indulged in one to a few of Bach's violin solos. Look for Sebastiaan de Grebber (BWV 1001), Shmuel Elbaz (BWV 1001, 1002, and 1004), Dorina Frati (the presto from BWV 1001 only, but the rest of her duo CD with Piera Dadomo is also very nice), Neil Gladd (BWV 1004, but old vinyl and hard to find), etc. Also, none of the violin solos, but I thought Avi Avital doing misc. Bach concertos and a sonata was also quite nice.

. . . And after you've digested all this, there is some pretty cool music actually written for mandolins in that era too.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

...
I remember reading/hearing somewhere that every musician who aspires to the best of his art at some point moves to Bach. Don't know if that's true (or just euro-centric or classical-bias) but it's an interesting concept.

I find it interesting to note that there is no proof whatsoever that any of the great baroque composers, the great Bach included, ever played their own (much less other's) written pieces in concert. Playing written music was a way to learn, never a goal for the masters. They would just improvise.

[John Hill]

I would also recommend listening to Smuel Elbaz. His Sonatas and Partitas CD is really nice. I seem to remember it sounding more like a mandola than mandolin.

I've listened to Elbaz's recordings...great player but that flatwound string / flatback mandolin sound I don't enjoy it at all. The G & D strings sound too much like taut rubber bands and there is no sustain, makes the instrument sound too banjo-ish or "plinky" (not that I mean to digress into another "try-to-describe-tone" thread).

But I do agree that we should at least check out other mandolin player's versions of this music. Always something to learn.

[Eugene]

I find it interesting to note that there is no proof whatsoever that any of the great baroque composers, the great Bach included, ever played their own (much less other's) written pieces in concert. Playing written music was a way to learn, never a goal for the masters. They would just improvise.

It was a very different time. Excepting public opera houses popular in Italy, professional music was much more an activity for the privileged--the ruling class and the church--than the public affair that it is today. Of course, improvisation was indeed an important skill among professional academic musicians of that era too. Those paradigms changed much in the immediately following generations.