To bevel..or Not To bevel, that is the question.

[michaelcj]

Those of you who are using the Blue Chip SR50 pick.... What are your thoughts / preferences regarding the "speed bevel" or "round bevel". I have been playing mostly with Golden Gates to date.

I do like the "speed bevel" on the BCs I use on guitar but they are triangular and anyhow I'm not looking for the same type of tone.

Thanks

Mike J

[JeffD]

I have a bevel on all my picks, BC, Wegen, and Bed Bear. I would not have it any other way.

[Phil Goodson]

I've always used a bevel and liked it. Out of curiosity I got a TAD60 without a bevel several months ago. Still feels and sounds like a Blue Chip but it requires a little more input from me to get the same sound. Have to pluck the strings with a little more 'straight on' angle to get the same tone and volume. Another of those things that are 'different' rather than 'better' or 'worse'.
Honestly, I still use the beveled picks more; although I'd prefer to use an unbeveled BC rather than a beveled non-BC. Just my preference.

[JeffD]

I look at it this way. A material that wears would develop the same bevel, and for a while become the sweetest pick. These new materials don't wear, or at least not in my life time, and so why not have them start sweet.

[Michael Bridges]

The bevel on my Wegen M150's almost seemed excessive when I first got them. After a week with them, it just feels "more right".

[bratsche]

I like bevels that are symmetrical, and dislike ones that are asymmetrical - like my preferences in instruments are, also. :)

bratsche

[garthh]

I play mainly with a SR60 (round bevel). To my ears, the speed and round bevels seem to bring out different harmonics.

[garthh]

.....when I compare the two, the "round" sounds with harmonics that are lower in pitch, closer together, which to me, makes the tone darker and more dense, which is what I aim for in my tone.....

[Jordan Ramsey]

If you play with pick angle, any pick will bevel naturally (Blue Chips wear, you just have to play the hell out of them). If you play flat to the strings, the pick will mostly just wear down flat. Most modern players favor a forward pick angle and a pick with either a pre-made or worn-in "right-hand bevel" (Reischman is the most notable exception, using a reverse pick angle and a pick with a "left-hand bevel"). Most first-generation players and lots of modern Monroe-style players do not use (or use very little) pick angle. There is a tonal difference that happens when you angle a pick.... most notably, a "scratchy" sound (especially with a non-beveled pick, that's why Philphool has to keep his non-beveled BC flat to the strings to get good tone). Use a beveled pick with that same forward angle and you'll get a smoother sound and less drag/ snap/ scratch, etc. from the string. Move that pick stroke close to the end of the fret board and you have what has become default "modern" tone (think Steffey, Thile, Hull, etc.). When you use a non-beveled pick, flat against the strings and closer to the bridge, you get the snap and tonal characteristics of those first-generation guys (think Monroe, Osborne, Wakefield, McReynolds), and modern Monroe stylists like Compton, McCoury, Chris Henry, etc. I took a lesson with Andy Statman a couple of months ago, and we basically talked about this for an hour. Andy uses a non-beveled pick (he scoffed at me when I asked him if he used a beveled pick or not:) ), flat against the strings, primarily close to the bridge when he's playing bluegrass. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself what kind of tone you are looking for... that will answer your question as whether to bevel or not to bevel.

[bratsche]

If you play with pick angle, any pick will bevel naturally (Blue Chips wear, you just have to play the hell out of them). If you play flat to the strings, the pick will mostly just wear down flat.

No, it will still wear down with a bevel... it just won't be a "right- or left- handed" one, but rather a bevel that's even on both sides. I think some people are confusing the issue by defining a bevel to specifically mean only a so-called "speed bevel (i.e., one with right- or left-handed asymmetry).

Also, I must question your statement that "Most modern players favor a forward pick angle and a pick with either a pre-made or worn-in 'right-hand bevel'" - that assertion is very genre- and style- specific, but is not applicable to the majority of mando players of all styles and genres, all around the world.

bratsche

[Cheryl Watson]

Yes, there is a "standard" bevel, "right-handed" bevel, and "left-handed" bevel. I prefer standard or a slight left-handed bevel. And, you don't have to be left-handed to prefer a left-handed bevel either. I am right-handed and play with a reverse-angle hold because I have a double-jointed thumb which is probably the only thing I have in common with John Reischman.

[Jordan Ramsey]

Also, I must question your statement that "Most modern players favor a forward pick angle and a pick with either a pre-made or worn-in 'right-hand bevel'" - that assertion is very genre- and style- specific, but is not applicable to the majority of mando players of all styles and genres, all around the world.

bratsche

Hi Bratsche, you are absolutely right.... My use of the term "modern" in this context was in reference to the bluegrass world, I should have specified. What are the tendencies of modern classical players?

p.s. I'll be performing Ligeti's Mysteries of the Macabre with the Aspen Contemporary Ensemble next week.... using a Gibson F5 and a Blue Chip pick with a right-handed bevel and a slight forward pick angle;).

[re simmers]

I've been trying hard to play 'flat to the strings' for years and can't seem to get there. It's tough to make a change!

Jordan, are there pro pickers who favor a forward pick angle intentionally for a certain sound? How about Roland White & Compton? Would it be tougher to play a good chop with a flat pick angle....it seems like it would be. An I assume Jesse Mc gets his perfect clarity cross-picking with a flat pick angle. ?

Interesting discussion. I think I need a lesson on holding the pick!

Bob

[bratsche]

Jordan - Break a leg! I'll have to look up the Ligeti (or wait till you put your performance on YT), as I've never heard it.

Generally from what I've observed, classical players have more of a perpendicular angle of play than BG players do. But everyone there doesn't march in perfect lock-step either, so you will find some variances.

bratsche

[mandobassman]

...There is a tonal difference that happens when you angle a pick.... most notably, a "scratchy" sound (especially with a non-beveled pick, that's why Philphool has to keep his non-beveled BC flat to the strings to get good tone). Use a beveled pick with that same forward angle and you'll get a smoother sound and less drag/ snap/ scratch, etc. from the string....

Jordan, I certainly respect your opinion because you pull a monstrous tone from a mandolin, but my experience is just the opposite. I have played beveled and non-beveled picks using the same pick angle and attack and I have always found the beveled version to produce the harsh, "scratchy" tone you describe and was able to produce a much smoother tone from the non-beveled version. I discovered this when I bought my first Blue Chip which was a TAD 60 with a right hand bevel. At that time they didn't offer the rounded bevel as a option. I loved the feel and volume of the pick, but found the tone to be very bright. Later, when they started offering the round bevel as an option, I bought the same TAD 60 without a bevel. The tone was smoother and much more pleasing to me. I did lose a touch of volume, but enjoyed the tone much, much more. I have had the same experience with Wegen. I have always found the Wegen TF140, to have a harsh tone. I now use a Wegen that I custom ordered without a bevel and the tone is significantly smoother. I use the same forward pick angle with all picks. I have come to realize that I have not liked the tone from any pick that has a bevel. Aside from the Wegen, the other pick that I use the most is a Planet Waves 1.25mm 346 celluloid (no bevel).

[Jordan Ramsey]

Hey Bob, hope you're doing well. To my eyes and ears, a lot of modern players from the bluegrass camp are using a forward angle closer to the fret board and going for a rounder, warmer sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSZ40V0teGM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPVjmDcecB0

And most trad players are using less angle closer to the bridge and going for a punchier, brighter sound... It looks like Roland has a little bit of forward angle, but it's hard to tell without actually getting up close and personal. He's definitely getting that trad tone. Mike seems to use very little to no angle. Jesse definitely keeps his pick mostly flat to the strings and sticks pretty close to the bridge.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PaFD-8KNv0
a4OUlYAVYWA

Hi Larry, I'm still really enjoying that album you sent me, thank you so much! The only thing I can think of is that you use flat wound strings and maybe that's why you're having a different experience than me (less pronounced grooves not grabbing the pick as much as standard wound?). As an experiment, turn your pick 45 degrees forward... should sound like Grisman when he gets that intentional wispy, scratchy sound. In my experience, non-beveled picks create at least a little bit of that sound unless they are flat to the strings, and beveled picks have a little tolerance with angle versus scratch. You say you play with a forward pick angle, do your picks bevel over time? Anyway, who cares as long as you're getting the sound you want. All the best, take care.

[mandroid]

Wear makes its own bevel.. not patient for it to happen naturally ? thats a choice.

[mandobassman]

Hi Larry, I'm still really enjoying that album you sent me, thank you so much! The only thing I can think of is that you use flat wound strings and maybe that's why you're having a different experience than me (less pronounced grooves not grabbing the pick as much as standard wound?). As an experiment, turn your pick 45 degrees forward... should sound like Grisman when he gets that intentional wispy, scratchy sound. In my experience, non-beveled picks create at least a little bit of that sound unless they are flat to the strings, and beveled picks have a little tolerance with angle versus scratch. You say you play with a forward pick angle, do your picks bevel over time? Anyway, who cares as long as you're getting the sound you want. All the best, take care.

I never thought about the flatwound string part of the equation. Since I haven't played a mandolin with roundwound strings in many years I wouldn't really know. Plus, it's only been in the past four or five years that I have experimented with beveled picks. I have been using mainly the Wegen, which is a 346 shape and is 1.8mm. I have had it a little over a year now with no wear at all. Prior to that I was using Fender Extra Heavy 346's. I also have another Wegen that is also 1.8mm that has a bevel and there is a night and day difference between the two. The beveled one is much brighter and has a "harder" fundamental tone with fewer overtones from what I can hear. The non-beveled one is more rounded warmer tone. But, as you say, as long as you're getting the sound you're looking for, that's all that matters. When is that new CD coming out? Can't wait to hear it.

[jmagill]

I use a Blue Chip with no bevel, because I sometimes will pick with the trailing edge (bridge-side) of the pick instead of the leading edge (fretboard-side) to get a different tone. Then a friend gave me a Blue Chip (same weight & size) with a bevel. It sounds noticeably brighter to me, and I prefer the warmer sound without the bevel, at least for mandolin, so I use the beveled one for guitar accompaniment.

As far as it being a 'speed' bevel, since the material has a self-lubricating quality that lets the strings slip right off the pick, I suspect you'd have to be a pretty fast player to notice much difference. At the speed I play, I sure can't notice it.