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testore
Feb-08-2005, 2:45pm
I just played the second worse mandolin I have ever played. It was a new Wayne Benson model Gibson. The only other mandolins that I have played that were equally terrible was a Sam Bush model and a $300 Weber. Now why do these madolin players endorse such JUNK? And why doesn't Gibson care enough to make beter instruments? There wasn't anything good about either of these two signature models.They where poorly constructed and they had NO SOUND. I can't say enough about how bad these things were. Gibson hasn't made a consistant mandolin worth owning since the 1920's. In fact I think all of the mandolins that are popular now aren't very consistantly good. There's too much attention placed on production numbers and not quallity of workmanship and sound. All of the major "makers" are just machine made. There's so little individual attention placed on each piece and therefore the cookie cutter effect destroys the product before they leave the factory. I challenge Gibson to make a mandolin worth buying. And for anyone who does own a good sounding Gibson mandolin made after the 1920's congratulations, you've beaten the odds. Go buy Lotto tickets!!!!!

johnnymando
Feb-08-2005, 2:48pm
Should I?......na

mpeknox
Feb-08-2005, 2:48pm
zzzzzzz.....

Tom C
Feb-08-2005, 2:50pm
Maybe it's your ears.

mandoJeremy
Feb-08-2005, 2:53pm
I would go with the ears! By the way, what kind of mandolin are you playing that is so much better?

mandoman4807
Feb-08-2005, 2:59pm
Bah, Bah, Bah. Give me a break .

What was the title to that Travis Tritt song? (Here`s a quarter, call someone who cares)!!


Darrell

testore
Feb-08-2005, 3:05pm
Ears are fine. I am a builder and play my own. Trust me these new Gibson mandolins SUCK! Remember I didn't say they haven't made any good ones on 80 years, just not consistantly good ones. I witnessed a young VERY GOOD player turn down a table of Gibson mandolins that Gibson was trying to get him to endorse. As his mom was pulling out her checkbook to buy one of these "too good to be true" mandolins her 13 year old wizkid told her to stop, he would never play any of the mandolins they had to show him.

mpeknox
Feb-08-2005, 3:07pm
that's quite a story, i like stories...in fact, i like everything you have to say.

Bradley
Feb-08-2005, 3:11pm
If he was being endorsed why was his mother getting out her Checkbook?

Heck, I'll just sit here and play the Steffey and hope that you have some cheese to go with your whine... I mean wine

John S
Feb-08-2005, 3:15pm
Nickel Creek isn't bluegrass. You shouldn't use a capo on mandolin. Tone-bars are a much better design than cross-bracing. Virzis suck. Monroe wouldn't have played it that way.




Sorry http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

testore
Feb-08-2005, 3:16pm
To be seen on stage with a Gibson mandolin that was bought for a give away price is still an endorsement. That's why D.G. has tape over his F-5's. He doesn't like their new stuff either.

mandoman4807
Feb-08-2005, 3:22pm
PASS THE POPCORN.. PLEASE!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Darrell

Scott Tichenor
Feb-08-2005, 3:23pm
I just played the second worse mandolin I have ever played. It was a new Wayne Benson model Gibson. The only other mandolins that I have played that were equally terrible was a Sam Bush model and a $300 Weber. Now why do these madolin players endorse such JUNK? And why doesn't Gibson care enough to make beter instruments? There wasn't anything good about either of these two signature models.They where poorly constructed and they had NO SOUND. I can't say enough about how bad these things were. Gibson hasn't made a consistant mandolin worth owning since the 1920's. In fact I think all of the mandolins that are popular now aren't very consistantly good. There's too much attention placed on production numbers and not quallity of workmanship and sound. All of the major "makers" are just machine made. There's so little individual attention placed on each piece and therefore the cookie cutter effect destroys the product before they leave the factory. I challenge Gibson to make a mandolin worth buying. And for anyone who does own a good sounding Gibson mandolin made after the 1920's congratulations, you've beaten the odds. Go buy Lotto tickets!!!!!
I'm not concerned about your opinions on any particular brand of mandolin, including Gibson, but you have violated our board guidelines just now and it might be good for you to review those. I pay the fees that run this board and I enforce the guidelines that maintain the health of it.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=13100 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=23&t=13100)

· Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don’t say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

Philip Halcomb
Feb-08-2005, 3:34pm
Hmmm, interesting post. I've played a lot of gibsons from the 2000-2004 period and most all of them sound good in my opinion. Yes some of them maybe in need of a setup and that affects the tone. I own a F9 and the thing sounds superb, guess I won the lottery. Also, that is not why David has tape over his gibson on his F5, I'm not going to get into why he really has the tape on there because I don't think this is the appropriate place for that. Ask him yourself if your really concerned. I think you're just venting out some kind of resentment or something, and it's shameful to use Scott's board to spread negativity like that. It's ok to say you are disatisfied with a product, but to bash a product is different. How would you like it if someone played some of your mandolins somewhere and then came back to cafe and posted what pieces of s@?# they are. I can say first hand that Gibson (the mandolin dept.) does not have machines pumping out these mandolins on an hourly basis. People put a lot of hardwork into those instruments (argueably as much as you). Good day...

testore
Feb-08-2005, 3:42pm
Sorry guys, I am a bit frustrated, but not resentfull. I really want Gibson to make better instruments because I feel the strength of the industry is based on the strength of the big guys in the bussiness. If they are healthy then all the little guys are too. I don't like what they are making from a players standpoint and from a builders stand point. I should have been more polite. I did speak to D.G. about this topic and you're right it's a bit more coplex than just what I've said.Sorry to offend just venting.

Scotti Adams
Feb-08-2005, 4:17pm
..hey chit happens...hey..Gary..what name do you build under?

testore
Feb-08-2005, 4:33pm
I build Violins violas cello and mandolins under my name. Why?

Lane Pryce
Feb-08-2005, 4:36pm
My lil Gib sounds great.No complaints here.But why does DG have tape on his F5?I wanna know. Lp http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

darthstar
Feb-08-2005, 4:36pm
I build Violins violas cello and mandolins under my name. Why?
That's spooky...I googled you and you died in 1765. But Testore violins and cellos are pretty valuable.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif --sorry, just having fun...

testore
Feb-08-2005, 4:44pm
:p

Lee
Feb-08-2005, 5:00pm
He probably builds under his own name. He's a graduate of The Violin Making School of America, established by Peter Prier in Salt Lake City in 1972. I note that violin/mandolin maker Paul Newson is also listed as a graduate.
From a players and builders standpoint what aspects of the Gibsons would you like to see improved? Where were the Steff and Sam models you tried?
And of course, I'm sure quite sure many of us would like to see pictures of your work. If it's not a mandolin, you're forgiven, as long as it isn't a b*nj@.

testore
Feb-08-2005, 5:10pm
I saw the two mando's at two different places, but I need to keep my mouth shut. I do have a few pics of my work.If you'd like me to email them to you I will. If you go to soundpost.com you can look at some pics of a violin of mine too.

Yellowmandolin
Feb-08-2005, 5:23pm
I tried to go to that site, but it didn't come up. Are there any other places to see some pics?

testore
Feb-08-2005, 5:26pm
Check out their archives or go to google and search for scarampella copy

luckylarue
Feb-08-2005, 5:27pm
Are you sure this isn't our old friend (you know who) rearing his head again? BTW, I'm not a huge Gibson fan (In fact I'm only 5'7"), but their signature series mandos that I've played are really nice, esp. the Steffey and Lawson models. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Spruce
Feb-08-2005, 5:27pm
Well, Gary, you sure picked a well-worn (http://www.lrdev.com/lr/cache/3c5905aa.html) topic for your 13th post....

If it looks like a Troll, smells like a Troll....
Whatever...

Gary is a fine maker of violin family instruments, and has recently got the bug and built several mandolins. #His last one is one of finest Loar copies I've ever played....

He flies under the mando-maker radar, but post #13 tells me that's all about to change...

Welcome to the Cafe, Gary...

"And of course, I'm sure quite sure many of us would like to see pictures of your work."

Here ya go...
I just happen to have a few....

Spruce
Feb-08-2005, 5:31pm
The back...

Nicely distressed....

testore
Feb-08-2005, 5:32pm
Not a chance Lucky !!!!

Spruce
Feb-08-2005, 5:33pm
Gary is one of the only modern makers who makes an attempt to get the points "right".....

Lee
Feb-08-2005, 5:43pm
Gary, nice copy of the Scarampella. I would call it rather distressed.
When you build a mandolin are trying to achieve any type of signature sound?
Nice photos, nice mando, thanks for the posts Spruce.

luckylarue
Feb-08-2005, 5:49pm
Sorry for any association, G, nice lookin' mando. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

testore
Feb-08-2005, 5:49pm
I can play the mando fairly well and I know what I want to hear. Been listening to mandos my whole life. Also since I deal in very expensive violin family instruments I think I have a good idea of what great players demand from their instruments. That's whay I have a hatred for such overhyped factory junk. Factory violins are never seen in the hands of professional violinists and i don't think the mandolin world should be any different. Mandolin players should demand more from the people who are supposed to build good mandos, the problem i see is that the ones in charge don't know enough about playing,listening or building to know when their product is inferior.

testore
Feb-08-2005, 5:51pm
All is forgiven Lucky

Lee
Feb-08-2005, 5:54pm
Is your goal in mandolin building to re-create the Loars of old, or do you have your own unique ideas of what makes a mandolin worthy?

Spruce
Feb-08-2005, 6:00pm
"Mandolin players should demand more from the people who are supposed to build good mandos, the problem i see is that the ones in charge don't know enough about playing,listening or building to know when their product is inferior.
"

Man, you talk like you throw a whiffleball....

All bluff and fluff... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

testore
Feb-08-2005, 6:02pm
Well just like my violin building, I want players to feel like they can get what they need from my stuff when they can't afford a Guadagnini. The same goes for my mandos. Violin sound is MUCH more complex but I try to incorporate that approach to mando building. The one Bruce is posting pics of is a monster and would put it next to ANYTHING and not be afraid.

testore
Feb-08-2005, 6:08pm
pitchers and catchers report this week don't they?

Spruce
Feb-08-2005, 6:13pm
You seem to be pitchin' already... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You'll be catchin' it here pretty soon, too...

And, yes, that last mando of yours does indeed have it....

Why don't you lug it on over to Wintergrass in a couple weeks?

testore
Feb-08-2005, 6:21pm
Maybe, what are the dates?

Scotti Adams
Feb-08-2005, 6:41pm
It does look real good..do you have any pics of the front?

danb
Feb-08-2005, 6:57pm
Testore, your F5 looks very nice, the detail work on the point protector is beautiful!

For god's sake though, *PLEASE* steer away from the "blah blah blah Gibson sucks" topics, or anything else that is going to obviously piss off a pile of people.

Topics like that start nasty, and denigrate rapidly into a bunch of pointless grunting.

Look at it this way.. if you do come to wintergrass, take the opportunity to walk into a jam session full of people playing Gibsons and see if you still feel like insulting their tastes.. people constantly seem to forget that they are addressing several thousand people at a time here with varied taste.

For that matter, how about just walking right up to the folks who build them and tell them how much you think their product sucks. Would it seem like you were being childish and rude if you did that in person? Is it any different to say it on a web forum, or by email?

Jim M.
Feb-08-2005, 6:58pm
I've certainly heard of your violins and they have a great reputation. I'm assuming you are not building your mandos just for fun. Where are they available?

testore
Feb-08-2005, 7:27pm
Great advice danb. Point well taken and appreciated. I'll behave from now on. IJim M. my mandos are available from me only .Since I am running a violin shop and doing a mess of work in that field my mando procuction is slow. I will have one ready in about 3-4 weeks however. I have a couple of interested parties now but who knows. It won't be distressed,slick as snot new.

mpeknox
Feb-08-2005, 7:32pm
For that matter, how about just walking right up to the folks who build them and tell them how much you think their product sucks. Would it seem like you were being childish and rude if you did that in person? Is it any different to say it on a web forum, or by email?
Well put Dan. I was fortunate enough to meet Charlie and Big Joe at SPBGMA and you would be hard pressed to find two friendlier people who are very proud (and rightly so) of what they do. These guys didn't know me from Adam yet they were willing to talk and let me play their mandolins (a '25(i think) and a distressed Master Model). They were both awesome and the MM will be as good as Charlie's in about 80 years or so. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm probably like the majority of the people that read/post here and don't play a top end mando (although i must say my Eastman MD605 is excellent http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) If you brought your pompous attitude into a jam circle with me or my friends, you'd be pickin' alone in no time.

Oh yeah, that's a GREAT lookin' mandolin you've built.

danb
Feb-08-2005, 7:40pm
testore: Thanks, it's appreciated. Like a bunch of folks here I've met Charlie, Joe, Danny.. and I know my share of Gibson fans & haters too! If you do make it down to wintergrass, I would like to see your work in person.. compare details. I'm a sucker for macro photos of the Loar parts what with being a part-time mando-librarian and all.

I should have a 10-string Vega mandolin and maybe a Loar nearby, as long as I remember to carry my "Jack Bait" with me!

testore
Feb-08-2005, 8:33pm
Thanks to all who chimed in today. Sorry for stepping on so many toes. I do have a great deal of respect for Gibson,for hell sake without them I'd have no reason to build mandos. Imitation is the highest form of flattery and that's what most of the builders I know try to do. Thank you Gibson for making those mandolins that are worth copying.

testore
Feb-08-2005, 8:35pm
And one more thing. Thanks Bruce for the pics and for saving my bacon.

fatt-dad
Feb-08-2005, 9:32pm
That was interesting. . . . .

f-d

mandoJeremy
Feb-09-2005, 12:20am
If you're such a great builder then why are you not listed in the Cafe's builders archive...and if Gibson sucks so much why haven't you not put them out of business? Honestly, do you think you (as a new member) can come on here, bash Gibson to the max, promote how great you are, and think you can sale some mandos? Who is playing one of your "GREAT" mandos? Let's hear some sound clips as well as YOU posting pics of your work instead of someone else.

carleshicks
Feb-09-2005, 12:21am
It's funny, half an hour ago I was sitting in my living room playing my '03 Gibson Fern Thinking that it was the sweetest sounding mandolin that I had ever heard, but I guess that it is junk so I better buy one of testore's mandolins. It that your sales aproach.

mandoJeremy
Feb-09-2005, 12:26am
Also Mr. Test, you said you would behave after Scott's original post and you haven't. Put yours up against ANYTHING? You're freaking insane dude. If not then I guess we would all want one of yours.

Greenmando
Feb-09-2005, 12:36am
One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

I am going to go play a very sweet sounding Gibson before I go to bed.

carleshicks
Feb-09-2005, 1:17am
You are exactly right. I guess after ten years of playing I don't know what a good Mando sounds like. I just thought that my Gibson was an excellent mandolin.

grandmainger
Feb-09-2005, 7:52am
For that matter, how about just walking right up to the folks who build them and tell them how much you think their product sucks.

Well put Dan. I was fortunate enough to meet Charlie and Big Joe at SPBGMA and you would be hard pressed to find two friendlier people who are very proud (and rightly so) of what they do.
I've been meaning to ask this for a while now... Just how BIG is Big Joe? Is he like Scary Big?

Lee
Feb-09-2005, 10:03am
Seems to me Mr. T's main beef was the inconsistancy, an opinion that's been voiced around here before.
Not being listed on the Cafe's builder list is not a reason to denigrate anyone.
<grunt grunt>

testore
Feb-09-2005, 10:11am
Remember what I said mandojeremy? I said that their not all horrible. Byron Berline showed me one that he decided to keep two years ago. It was a great sounding mando. I just wish they made a more consistant product. that's all. I have,by the way, sold a mandolin to David Grisman. Trust me, I'm glad your '03 sounds great. I want them all to be worth owning,that's my complaint. The pics posted for me by Bruce where some I sent to him. Not sure why his posting them as a favor is such a problem.

Big Joe
Feb-09-2005, 10:23am
If you're so good at judging what we do, come help us out. I'm sure your wisdom and knowledge could help us substantially. Just come to the Bluegrass Showcase and ask for me. I'll be glad to listen to you. We always welcome input on our product. Not just griping, but honest input.

Lee
Feb-09-2005, 10:26am
Hey Gary, how many mandolins have you built so far? No particular reason for my curiosity, would merely like to how recently the mando bug bit.

testore
Feb-09-2005, 10:31am
Are you serious Big Joe ? I'd love to sit down and talk about stuff. Sounds like fun. Are you talking about Wintergrass?

Scotti Adams
Feb-09-2005, 10:36am
..man..I would love to be a fly on those walls

Lee
Feb-09-2005, 10:39am
Heck, I'd pay for a ticket!
"And in this corner, wearing the blue trunks..."

timothy.c.hicks
Feb-09-2005, 11:13am
"Violin sound is MUCH more complex but I try to incorporate that approach to mando building."

please explain...

mmukav
Feb-09-2005, 11:30am
I'm no expert, but from what I've learned a violin is a much different creature than a mando. More fragile in build and sound. More complex in tone because of the thin, fragile wood. Of course, somewhat smaller than a mandolin.

As far as my Gibson F9, I love it. Must've lucked out and got a good one!

mandoman4807
Feb-09-2005, 11:33am
Hey Steve, where did the pic of Big Joe go?

Darrell

mandoJeremy
Feb-09-2005, 11:40am
testore, first of all I don't have an '03. #Mine is a 2000 model Bush and I am very pleased with it. #Second, I have been to the OAI store quite a bit and everytime I do go I play every high end mandolin on the wall. #I would say they have their consistancy down very well. #I am also glad you sold a mandolin to DG but I just haven't seen him playing it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Lee
Feb-09-2005, 12:16pm
Maybe 'cause the tape is in the way? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

testore
Feb-09-2005, 12:33pm
Sorry mandoJeremy confused your post with carleshicks. I'm very glad your pleased with your S.B. model. I'd like them all to be that way. D.G. owns so many mandolins of course he doesn't play them all. He goes on stage with "Crusher" and so would I ,he gave it a very appropriate name,it's an absolutley huge sounding mandolin.
Lord Loar, the way I think of mandolin sound is through my experience in the violin world. Consistant great sound isn't an accident. There are so many things that go into building a great sounding violin and I approach my mandolins with the same amount of detail. My tolerances are less than a tenth of a milimeter, and it makes a huge difference for violins and also mandolins

Stephen Perry
Feb-09-2005, 12:45pm
Gary, I would highly recommend visiting the Opry Mills operation. As a one-off builder I was adequately impressed by the scale of the operation. The other impressive element is the amount of discussion about individual mandolins and the hand work in each. Perhaps they'd let you work there a week, comment on individual operations, the acoustic approach taken, and so on. I must admit that as a violin maker I'm somewhat baffled by some of the common things done in mandolin construction. But it seems to work, or at least to produce the sound people like.

I notice in my shop that there will always be someone who loves each instrument and takes it away, even if I can't get much out of it. I expect that the same holds for mandolins and even mandolin brands.

Be sure to let everyone know if you're heading to Gibson. I'll pop out and visit at the same time.

I like the Scarampella copy. Been looking at it for years. I'm always tempted to make one with a fiddle bent to it. I need a good fiddle platform. Currently staring at the Strad 2003 poster of a Maggini. Big, low ribs. Maybe it would be a good fiddle, good 5 string, or perhaps a good violin-shaped mandolin.

Spruce
Feb-09-2005, 12:46pm
"If you're so good at judging what we do, come help us out. #I'm sure your wisdom and knowledge could help us substantially. #Just come to the Bluegrass Showcase and ask for me. #I'll be glad to listen to you. #We always welcome input on our product. #Not just griping, but honest input. "

This is an honest (and much appreciated) offer, by the way....
Witness the Distressed Model...

"My tolerances are less than a tenth of a milimeter, and it makes a huge difference for #violins and #also mandolins"

Does this mean that you're gonna get the points "right" and straight from now on??
Bummer if "yes"... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

timothy.c.hicks
Feb-09-2005, 1:28pm
Testore, If precision is the name of the game, then I imagine that the Collings folks are at the front of the pack, waaaay out front. #Hmmm... #It seems to me that the wide array of builders working today each offer a unique approach to mandolin building. This means that there are many more unique choices, at many different price points, for consumers to choose from now than in the not so distant past. # #Even the "big builders" such as Gibson OAI (who are really quite small - I doubt that the output of any of these operations is significantly higher than that of the gibson company in the 20's) are building some of the finest mandolins that have ever been built. #It seems that we are in a mandolin renaissance of sorts. #Not the mandolin doldrums which you seem to suspect. # So the Gibson folks aren't building instruments the way you would.... well I doubt they would want to build mandolins the way you do, or the way collings does, or the way gilchrist does, etc.. # To put things in perspective, I wonder how the average quality of mandolins nowdays compares to those which were made in the 1930's-1990's, I suspect it is MUCH higher now than it was then. #You would have been hard pressed to find a nice new mandolin in the 1970's...

testore
Feb-09-2005, 1:50pm
Perfectly said Lord Loar.

Nolan
Feb-09-2005, 2:05pm
"My tolerances are less than a tenth of a milimeter, and it makes a huge difference for #violins and #also mandolins"


- the one and only Loar I have played was really rough. #It looked like their tollerances were quite a bit more back then. #Maybe I had a bad example but it did sound really good even with the loose tolerances.

evanreilly
Feb-09-2005, 2:26pm
I've compared my 2 'new' Nashville F-5L/Ferns to Loar F-5 mandolins. The workmanship on the Loars is looser, in that the newer instruments are constructed to tighter tolerances. They are both similar in feel and playability. The sound gap is closing, tho, and that is a big positive for the boys ay O.A.I.

cutbait2
Feb-09-2005, 2:54pm
i think testore was making a general comment and cited a couple gibsons as examples. in my limited experience of buying and selling maybe a dozen good mando's over the past three years i've heard comments from several of those traders/dealers who you would assume "are in the know" imply similar thoughts about a variety of builders. my recent experience with gibsons has been very good but the reason i've gone thru a dozen mando's looking for "the tone" is that often the mando does not live up to the name. i have found a good one by the way......

Lee
Feb-09-2005, 3:21pm
and it is....

Lane Pryce
Feb-09-2005, 3:46pm
Come on the suspense is killin me!!!!!!!!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Lp

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-09-2005, 3:54pm
OK..I couldn't let it go

Testore

If your tolerances are less than a tenth of a millimeter..then why with only two pictures posted can I see things that are off by a full millimeter in areas where Gibson doesn't vary more than a tenth of a millimeter...then or now.

Or maybe the tolerance is from mandolin to mandolin and getting things correct (on a Loar copy at that) doesn't matter???

Oh..maybe what they look like and sound like doesn't matter as long as you keep 0.10 millimeter tolerance to the plans you have on your bench

Hmmmmm....maybe two mandolins forms the basis for maintaining tolerances...at that rate I can show you 10 Loars and 10 new Master Models that have less tolerance from mando to mando

And yes, I would say this to a builders face when presented with such unsubstantiated, subjective information that really serves no useful purpose

Your mando does look pretty good though # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's your pitch that doesn't hold water

Spruce
Feb-09-2005, 4:07pm
You seem to be pitchin' already... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You'll be catchin' it here pretty soon, too...
That took about a day longer than I thought it would, Darryl....

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

testore
Feb-09-2005, 4:08pm
Darryl, thanks. When I mentioned tolerances I was refering to the graduations of the top and back plates. I was talking about the tonal demands of violins and how I feel it has a direct influence on complex sound quality. I think that mandolins should have the same range and quality demands of fine violins and I think that it is not difficut it just takes more time. And when I say "poorly constructed" I 'm not talking about the cutting of MOP or binding miters, All of the Loars I've seen have "problems" in that regard. It's adds charm and character and that's fine. There is an overall clunkyness to the Gibson stuff I've seen lately and they have a very unattractive factory look to them that the old Gibsons don't have. Maybe I'm just more fond of the factory look of the 20's than I am of the 21st century factory look. I would love to show you a mando and I never mind critique. I welcome it in fact. I was waiting for you to chime in. Thanks

cutbait2
Feb-09-2005, 4:09pm
made by a former Gibson employee

testore
Feb-09-2005, 4:18pm
Darryl, just looked again at the pics. Please tell me where I'm off by a mil. You certainly can't be taking measurements from the pics. Please let me know.

fatt-dad
Feb-09-2005, 4:35pm
fatt-dad continues. . . .

If it was interesting on page 2, I find it equally interesting now. Here is my synopsis: Testore came into the message board with sharp criticism on the Gibson line - maybe harsh is the better word. Kind folks did not flame up too much and Dad (oops, Scott) referenced the posting guidelines. Testore licked his wounds and seemingly apologised for being abrasive. This brought us to Page 2. What has followed is confusing me. There are opinions on old Gibsons versus new Gibsons, some may relate to a misguided dark era (i.e., the seventies), some may relate to the current lineup, whatever. It now seems that Testore is trying to have a civil discussion on what it takes to get the most complex and biggest sound from the wires and wood. Heck, that is the holy grail question and it needs to be visited, revisited, discussed and refined. I have never played a master model (would like to), but notwithstanding that small matter, let's continue to progress the state of the craft and not bother with whether the photo really shows his claim on 0.1 mm is correct or not.

(rant off).

On a separate note: The value of a Persian rug is found in its flaws. If they were perfect, it would be a testimate to the machine that made them. I suspect mandolins are in the same setting.

fatt "not-that-I-don't-enjoy-dispute" dad

Lee
Feb-09-2005, 4:37pm
Gary, I'm still curious how long you've been doing the mandolin thing and how many you've built so far. #Just F's, or do you build A's and maybe 2-pointers too? #
I might want to pull the trigger before Big Joe hires you and takes you off the private market. #A rare pre-Gibson Vessel mandolin; has kinda a ring to it.
Seriously, two of my favorite mandolins have been made by violin builders; Bruce Taggart and Paul Newson.
Interesting point Fatt-Dad, similarly synthetic diamonds are recognizable for their lack of flaws.

testore
Feb-09-2005, 4:47pm
Sorry Lee957 didn't mean to ignore your ?? I haven't made a lot of mandolins 7 actually. F's and A's and electrics. Just finishing the 8th now. I have made about 65 violin family instruments however. I made my first mando in 1988 . Been working very hard in the fiddle world for about 20 years and needed a way to have more fun so I started playing a lot more and been making mandos, cellos and violas a lot lately. On top of that I run a full service violin shop and that takes a ton of time from the bench. As does the mandolin cafe. I do a lot of dealing in old antique high dollar violins too and that is very exhausting. I'm happy to know what you play.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-09-2005, 4:57pm
How about size of the center of the scroll...the angle and attack of the end of the interior cut....the amount the binding turns and carries into the scroll button..
length and width of the heel button....and the amount that the point turns up...

First time builder always "overdo" some of these things trying to capture the nuances that they have on their little list of thing to get right.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-09-2005, 5:01pm
Oh yea....I guess yours is a 36 in the waist while the real ones still wear 29's

Spruce
Feb-09-2005, 5:13pm
But the points look cool.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Big Joe
Feb-09-2005, 5:31pm
I am a little frustrated here. Our graduations are very exact and very carefully measured and done. The time we put into our product is as much as needed to make it sound right. No exceptions and no excuses. I will put our product up against yours any day of the week. Bring one of your "loar" copies and we will compare our Loars to your copies. I think you will be more than a little surprised. We may not know much about buidling fiddles, but I can assure we know mandolins. We know mandolins as well or better than anyone else on the planet. It is not a part time hobby with us, but our life, our passion, our hobby, and our job. We eat, sleep, and breathe mandolin. We have mandolin finish in our blood stream. We know by sight what is correct and what is not. We know by feel and sound what is right. In spite of this, we have some pretty good calipers and hacklinger guages at our disposal and used frequently. Our jigs are custom made to ensure our measurements are right and they are checked constantly.

You can brag about your product all you want. Just don't use our name in the same breathe. We have nothing to prove. You do. We have eighty years of history and still build the gold standard. You think you have some great wisdom after seeing 2 mandolins and building 7. That's pretty small standards to judge by. We've build hundreds and seen thousands. We know mandolins. We know not just Gibson but we know Gil's, Dude's, Kimble's, Stiver's, La Plante's, Daily's, etc. etc. etc. We know mandolins and that is a fact!!!

I think I'm done with this thread. I've tried to be congenial and welcoming, but this has gone beyond reason. I'm starting to see red, so I'm out of here and will keep of this thread for now on.

testore
Feb-09-2005, 5:37pm
No mine's 29 in the waist too.
Darryl Thanks, give me numbers on the button height and width, I'll fix it. I have since taken specs from "Crusher" on the size of the scroll button and am fixing the swing into the turn on the current one. Thanks again.

wallflower
Feb-09-2005, 6:21pm
testore-

It's problematic when people, such as you, make grandiose statements about a generalized population of things based upon an exceedingly small test sample. #

How do we know, or you for that matter, that this small sampling of mandolins was properly setup? #I suspect we don’t.

You've made claims in this thread that are without evidentiary support and done so in a way that's vitriolic. #And... it appears you’ve done all this with the express intent of bolstering your own product. #In my book, regardless of how good your mandolin is, you've discredited yourself.

I hold the good people at Gibson in very high regard and you've attacked them inappropriately and unnecessarily. #

Jeff Bredthauer

sunburst
Feb-09-2005, 6:34pm
I must be crazy to take on Big Joe on the mandolin cafe, and take the chance of being misjudged as a “Gibson basher” by the Gibson faithful, but, while other posters here can get me to roll my eyes from time to time, noone can get me to see red like Big Joe.

Joe, I don’t dispute your knowledge of Gibson mandolins, past and present, and in particular, I don’t dispute Charlie’s knowledge, and the collective knowledge of the Gibson company...but...

You say you have 80 years of history.
You can’t buy experience. The Gibson company has been sold and moved several times during it’s existence. If I had been the one to last buy Gibson, rather than Henry, that wouldn’t give me 80 years of experience. The knowledge about mandolins that you guys have is available to any of us who want to spend the time, money, and effort to collect it. We have callipers and Hacklingers too. We all have access to chemistry labs, libraries, Loars, the internet, etc. Nobody that I know of at Gibson has been there 80 years.
Like I said, I don’t dispute that you’all have the knowledge you say, but don’t claim or imply years of experience that don’t really exist.

You say you have nothing to prove. You say Gibson is the gold standard.
Well, I say, if you are going to claim to be the gold standard, you have that to prove with every mandolin you make. The Gibson name does not a gold standard make. Consistently excellent product does. It’s up to the buyer to decide what the standard is.

As I read through this, I see nothing that should be construed as disparaging to Gibson or anyone at Gibson, and it is not my intention to be disparaging. Just my opionions. I suppose I’m just venting like a lot of others on this thread.

There’s a chance I’ll delete this after I see it posted, but It made me feel better to write it anyway.

grandmainger
Feb-09-2005, 6:41pm
I have an idea. How about we put this thread on hold for 24 hours just to cool off and get some picking done?

johnhgayjr
Feb-09-2005, 7:19pm
My 2 cents - from a guy who wanted a Gibson almost from the day I started playing 25 years ago. #Monroe played a Gibson, Grisman played a Gibson, Bush played a Gibson - nuff said. #That's what I wanted. #I could never justify the money for one - even if I happened to have the money. The closest to a real Gibson I ever got was a Flatiron.

Many, if not most, of the Gibson's I've heard played on stage by the pro's over the last 25 years sounded really good. #Some, but not all, I've hard in jam situations didn't sound that great. Others sounded pretty good. #I just figured it was the player and not the mandolin.

I've had a chance to play 10 or 15 Gibsons over the years and they all looked good but the sound / tone varied from great to not so good. #I recently went by the Gibson store at Shopryland and picked several high dollar models. #They all looked great but the sound/tone was very inconsistent. I had a chance to try out a Master Model in the past year - it looked great but I didn't like the sound.

As far as setup goes, a $5k - $10k - $19k mandolin shouldn't need too much setting up. #I would expect it be setup perfectly for that kind of cabbage.

My "tests" fall in the anecdotal category and don't have any kind of statistical basis so this is just my opinion. #And you know what they say about opinions and (insert your favorite body part) - everybody's got one.

Maybe Gibson's are all built within nanometers of Loar specs but as far as I'm concerned Gibson's are inconsistent from a sound point of view... I'd have a hard time spending big money for one.

John Gay
Memphis

mmukav
Feb-09-2005, 8:52pm
And what $300 Weber did you play?

I don't think Weber makes any mandolins for $300, do they?

testore
Feb-09-2005, 9:14pm
300 was from memory,but it wasn't brand new and I thought that's what my buddy said he paid for it. He doesn't have much $$ so it was cheap for sure.

Jim Hilburn
Feb-09-2005, 9:23pm
Just for clarification, Joe, Gibson has a 103 year history.

carleshicks
Feb-09-2005, 9:49pm
I think some of you are forgetting the "opening up " factor. When I bought my '03 Gibson Fern ,new, it sounded O.K. Better than most in it's price range but not better than all, but after only a few weeks of heavy jamming and finding the right strings it opened up into a virtual tone monster. I know for a fact that there is not another mandolin in the fern price range that I would trade it for.

And I also agree with walflower, testore, you have really discredited yourself. regardless how great your mandolins sound I would never purchase one based souly on your apraoch of makeing yourself look better by bashing someonelse.

ShaneJ
Feb-09-2005, 10:01pm
I don't claim to have a clue about building mandolins, much less how to get several to sound the same, but.....

It has been my experience with guitars that it is very rare to play two identical models from the same manufacturer and get the same exact sound/tone to come out of both of them. The closest thing to an exception would be the cheap plywood ones that all sound consistently bad. Solid wood instruments are, after all, built out of solid wood. No two parts of the same tree are identical, and those variances must certainly have an effect on the finished product(s). I've been reading discussions here and elsewhere about building instruments and how everyone is striving for the magic formula to build the holy grail mandolin over and over. Some folks go into great detail and depth trying to quantify things scientifically in hopes of finding the repeatable magic formula. Several people way smarter than me have devoted much of their lives to this endeavor, and from what I can gather, they are all still searching. A lot of builders are apparently capable of building instruments that have consistently identical physical measurements, and there are reports that many of these builders can produce similar sounding instruments most of the time. But the next one they all build is cut from a different piece of wood, so there's no guarantee that those measurements or flex rates, etc. will end up producing a sonic clone of the last one.

When I bought my favorite guitar 20 years ago, I shopped for several months playing numerous guitars of different brands and even a dozen or so of the same exact brand and model of the one I finally bought. This one just had the sound that spoke to me. Some of the others were close, some were good yet different, and still others just weren't even close. There's a whole bunch of pieces of different trees put together with some other pieces of metal and glue and finish in every instrument. They also had different strings of different ages that had been played and sweated on by different people and installed and set up by different people too. A lot of variables...

I think it is a worthwhile goal to try to build identical instruments, but I don't think it is attainable for any individual builder or even any CNC shop.

I appears to me that the Gibson folks put several very talented and skilled luthiers to work building mandolins largely by hand, while using some power tools that most individual builders probably use too. I don't know if they build the gold standard or not - I'm sure there are about as many ideas of what the gold standard should look like and sound like as there are favorite body parts. I'm sure they build some dang good mandos at the Gibson shop though, it's obvious to me by "getting to know Joe and Charlie" here that they are serious about what they do and they put a lot of effort into it and have a lot of pride in their work. I applaud them for all they do.

I don't have a Gibson instrument of any kind, but they must be doing something right or else they wouldn't have so many flaming arrows being shot at them all the time.

sgarrity
Feb-09-2005, 10:08pm
Ya know, I don't agree with the way this thread was started but I have to wonder why the topic of Gibson inconsistency keeps coming up on this board. Could it be that there is some truth to it? From personal experience I have to say yes. I've played and heard some really good ones and I've heard and played some really bad ones. Now take another large builder like Collings or Weber. How many threads have you seen about inconsistency? I've played quite a few of both of those brands and have never had a bad one. Now lets take a look at the price points for these brands. Street price for an MF5 is around $7000, around $7500 for a Gibson Fern and I think around $5000 for a Weber Fern. (Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) For that kind of money I want it right all the time.
I design high-end swimming pools for a living. We are one of the highest priced companies in our market. But we also produce a very consistent, high quality product. People know exactly what they are going to get when the choose me to build their pool. So I'm justified in asking for the money that I do.
If every Fern, Signature model or MM had that killer tone (like the overwhelming majority of Collings do) then they would be justified as well.

Just my opinion,
Shaun

ShaneJ
Feb-09-2005, 10:17pm
Do the splashes all sound the same? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Greenmando
Feb-09-2005, 10:30pm
#,,Bring one of your "loar" copies and we will compare our Loars to your copies. #I think you will be more than a little surprised. #We may not know much about buidling fiddles, but I can assure we know mandolins. #We know mandolins as well or better than anyone else on the planet. #It is not a part time hobby with us, but our life, our passion, our hobby, and our job. #We eat, sleep, and breathe mandolin. ,,,
I understand a few of these same great builders may even own a Loar or two, and most have played Loar's. If I had a Loar this would be the only troupe of professionals I would allow to even touch it, much less repair it. Hands down I trust them more without even have meeting them. More than I give my own family and co-workers.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-09-2005, 11:01pm
DONE...my point has been made...NOBODY deserves respect that they have not earned. Case closed ///goodbye

Charlie Derrington
Feb-09-2005, 11:08pm
I was going to stay out of this one, but I just can't help myself.

Inconsistencies are in the ear of the beholder.

The true tests are (in my mind) : How does one stand behind the product they build and what do they consider as the model?

I think you all know that if any, and I mean any, of our customers are unhappy with their Gibson mandolin, we will stand behind it..... period. Also, I can think of maybe only two other builders that may have either owned or measured/repaired as many Loars as have we. I also know that most of you understand my rabid dedication to replicating the Loar period of Gibson mandolin building, which comes second only to our faithful dedication to our customers.

I'm only stating all of this to underscore the fact that not everyone wants an instrument that sounds like a Loar and I applaud Testore's belief that he can build a better (very subjective) mandolin than can we. I just hope he takes no offence in the fact that I just don't believe him. Yet.

If he can prove, over time, that he has the ability, then let's hope that he will live long enough to cover a lifetime warranty to a 95 year old original customer that has an issue. We can, and have.

Charlie

mandoJeremy
Feb-09-2005, 11:49pm
My final post and thoughts on this one are forthcoming. #First, I have played only around 15 Loars and I do know what they are about. #Second, if you guys can build a better one then do so and shut up with your self-promotion. #I have stated many times that if Charlie was the one chosen to rebuild, from splinters, #Monroe's Loar then he knows what the hell he is doing which is exactly what Darryl was saying about respect. #If not, then some of you should have done the job yourself and you better read the full story of what was involved in him doing so. #Could you do it? #I honestly don't think so. #Did you earn the respect? #The funny thing is that most of you have never touched a Loar or a '20's Fern and if you did you would probably be very unimpressed. #Why? #Because you haven't learned how to pull the tone from the instrument. #It takes a mature mandolinist to be able to pull that vintage tone from any instrument and most of you would just pick it up and say oh it's not that great. #Bullcrap! #They are that great and the MM's and DMM's are also that great. #The problem is going to be your right hand if you can't pull it out. #I have seen Steffey pull his signature tone out of some 7 year old's beginner mando. #So, if you don't know what real vintage tone is and how to pull it then you need to shut up now because Gibson (under Charlie) is definitely reproducing that perfectly. #Also, testore, ANY day you want to compare one of your mandos to my Bush model you just let me know. #

mandoJeremy
Feb-10-2005, 12:02am
Also, do you know how many builders can measure Loars specs and all of that? #How many can actually play the mando itself very well? #I know that most of the guys at Gibson can do so....don't believe me then go and listen to Danny Roberts' CD. #The sad thing is that most of the great builders can't play at all or they barely know their way around the fretboard. #There again, can you play better than you measure? And it funny that Spruce brought up the point about your points testore. Not only am I a freak about the scroll but even more so about the overall shape of the F-5 and I must say that you better work on those points if you are truly copying a Loar!

devilsbox
Feb-10-2005, 12:36am
If someone can build an instrument that is consistently superior to what is now considered the best, then that instrument should be able to stand on its own merit. Abrasive, "over the top" claims won't make it sound or look any better, neither will attacking another builder's work.
I am impressed with the restraint shown by Big Joe and Charlie, considering the insults. I do not own a Gibson, but it sure seems that their name is a lightning rod for name calling and insult.
Want to buy a mando? Go try some out and buy what you like and can afford, case closed. Lets all have a nice day and move on.

Rick Crenshaw
Feb-10-2005, 12:46am
I like to play mandolins. I have a Gibson A9. It sounds like a good mandolin sounds. It is good. Playing mandolin is fun. I like music. Music is fun. Talking about other people and their things is bad. I learned that from Ms. Moore in Kindergarten. Where do you go to school. I have to go to bed now, but when I wake up tomorrow. I'm going to play my mandolin. If you talk bad about my mandolin I'm going to tell Ms. Moore on you. Plus, my dad can beat up your dad.:O

siren_20
Feb-10-2005, 2:00am
GE, that is priceless...just the thing this thread needed! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
ps At least my dad doesn't play b@nj0! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Scotti Adams
Feb-10-2005, 9:24am
Re: Danny Roberts new Cd....whatever make model Gibson/s he plays on that is pretty much the way all mandos should sound...now thats just my opinion....I think Jim Pullen told me that Danny used a MM on the recording that once belonged to him.

Mando4Life
Feb-10-2005, 9:47am
I saw the Grascals on the Opry Sat Night....man that Danny Roberts is something else....

I never post on these topics but....It never ceases to amaze me that people get sooooo stuck on the which brand is better than which debate....what's wrong with taking each instrument as it's own entity. For example, I was at a bar last Friday and the guy playing mando (on a Dearstone) made that F5 sing and sound great. I've also seen locals around here make Flatirons sing. I was even lucky enough to hear a gent rip it up on a Gilchrist...To me it's more about the player and his skills....but what do I know....I play for enjoyment....I also think that a lot of times people tend to listen to a CD and take that sound as true.....a LOT of tricks can be done in that studio.....kind of strayed off topic a bit but I just can't understand the whole Company A makes junk but Company B is great....no wait Company B is terrible and Company C is the best....

WBL

GTison
Feb-10-2005, 10:00am
best thread in a while...

about inconsistency, #I used to hear about Loars that didn’t sound that good. #These from second hand accounts of Grisman and others. #Now that the price has gone to 100 K I never hear that. #My point is that even in Loar mandolins there is at least the perception of #tonal deficiencies and differences. #

Testore started out pretty bold here. #But has been quite civil, I think. #Good luck in the building process. #I think that Derrington has implied before in a round-a-bout way that there may be better sounding mandoins (by modern standards anyway) BUT there are NO better Loar/fern sounding mandolins anywhere. #

Other threads that relate: setups, the players tone producing ability, construction tech., # They all matter.

Scotti Adams
Feb-10-2005, 10:08am
..so very true Wayne..so very True...

evanreilly
Feb-10-2005, 10:20am
A minor addition, about builders who can play their products.
In addition to Danny Roberts at Gibson, Charlie Derrington played mandolin with the band '1946' until he decided to devote all his attention to building mandolins.
Steve Gilchrist is a very competent mandolinist.
I beleive Lynn Dudenbostel plays one of his own creations as well.
And all of these builders are primarily targettting the looks and sounds of the early 1920's Gibson Master Model mandolins.

testore
Feb-10-2005, 11:59am
Charlie, I never said I make better mandos than ANYONE. I just stated how very disappointed I was with your high end mandolins. The mention of my own work was in response to a question of what I play. Of course I'm going to have expectations when I play a Gibson mandolin. No less than when I finish an instrument myself. I can't find who said it here but I must agree that there is definately a breaking in period for every instrument and I was more than a little too harsh on the new items I played,I will agree. I'm ready to put this thing to rest. Happy building and playing.

twaaang
Feb-10-2005, 12:19pm
He doesn't get it. He's not going to get it. Let's all drop it. -- Paul

mmukav
Feb-10-2005, 12:23pm
".....and I was more than a little too harsh on the new items I played,I will agree...." (a little?)

Dude, you threw down the gauntlet, did you not? Don't you remember these comments:

"...second worse mandolin I have ever played",

"...There wasn't anything good about either of these two signature models.They where poorly constructed and they had NO SOUND"

"...I can't say enough about how bad these things were."

"...I challenge Gibson to make a mandolin worth buying."

"...Trust me these new Gibson mandolins SUCK!"

"...I witnessed a young VERY GOOD player turn down a table of Gibson mandolins that Gibson was trying to get him to endorse. As his mom was pulling out her checkbook to buy one of these "too good to be true" mandolins her 13 year old wizkid told her to stop, he would never play any of the mandolins they had to show him." (I'd still love to know who this was supposed to be)

"...That's why D.G. has tape over his F-5's. He doesn't like their new stuff either."

"... I don't like what they are making from a players standpoint and from a builders stand point."

"...Also since I deal in very expensive violin family instruments I think I have a good idea of what great players demand from their instruments. That's whay I have a hatred for such overhyped factory junk."

"... the problem i see is that the ones in charge don't know enough about playing,listening or building to know when their product is inferior."

Now if you were talkin' about my Mama, I'd have to take you out to the woodshed....

I appreciate the fact that you're a builder, and a player, (supposedly), but when you throw out that quantity of very inflammatory statements, what did you expect? I think an apology to BigJoe and Charlie Derrington is in order, and to the Scott and all Cafe members. Unless your mandolins sing like a Loar, I think your thread amounts to little more than another round of 'Gibson bashing' for bashing's sake!

Mike Muk

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-10-2005, 12:26pm
".....The one Bruce is posting pics of is a monster and would put it next to ANYTHING and not be afraid"

jimbob
Feb-10-2005, 1:12pm
I know my opinion is from a very limited perspective and I don't hold myself up as a very good musician, especially a mandolin player. However, I do appreciate value and have always been able to recognize quality. I own Gibson products and wouldn't sell or trade anything I own with Gibson on it. I have always been a true fan of Gibson products....from Les Pauls to my RB 250 and my old J-45.
When I started playing mandolin, I wanted to eventually get a Gibson. They have a tremendous reputation that is well earned over many years of producing quality stringed instruments. I am not a Gibson basher. I finally had the opportunity to see several new Gibson mandolins in one store late last summer. The store I was in had most of the signature models, a Fern, a F-9....about 5 or 6 total. That was quite a collection in one place at one time. I was very excited to see them and had my check book in hand. I was very disappointed in the fit and finish of the instrumnets I saw that day. They did play pretty well and sounded pretty good...but I have to say the overall fit and finish disappointed me. The price Gibson places on their gear is their business. I can only say that those several instruments I saw and played in September didn't not meet my expecattion of a Gibson mandolin. This is only offered as a fair observation. If the price is going up like it recently did, the expectation for sound , palyability and fit and finsish should not be compromised. Good luck and best wishes to all proud Gibson owners...some day I hope to find one that I can afford that suits me...in the meantime, I'll play my Weber and my new, yet-to-be-delivered instrument from an independent luthier....

JD Cowles
Feb-10-2005, 1:14pm
stop the fight! #stop the fight! #i'm waiting for someone to start throwing folding chairs. #while these threads provide some interesting diversions from work, i think we need to lay off the "your mandolin sucks" threads.

if a gibson bashing thread starts in the cafe and no one is there to read it, does it make a sound?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

Lee
Feb-10-2005, 1:15pm
and it is...

luckylarue
Feb-10-2005, 1:23pm
....Jimbob?....don't leave us hanging now. Fess up!

jimbob
Feb-10-2005, 1:29pm
Mr. Hilburn http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Lee
Feb-10-2005, 1:33pm
The King of Headstock Inlays!

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-10-2005, 1:36pm
Don't you mean King of Scroll Work...Jim is certainly one of the finest out there...maybe we should just hijack this thread and talk about the good builders http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

jimbob
Feb-10-2005, 1:43pm
You know, it's very difficult for a pure hobby player to justify the kind of money for a real nice mando...no matter who makes it. I think the art and cratftmanship are very important. I know a big a name company has longevity and reputation for standing behind products as a plus. But for the kind of money we're talking about, it needs to make folks "Ohh" and "Awe" a little when they see it...that probably isn't a big driver to a serious, top of the line picker, but it is to me.
I can't wait for my new eye-popper ! I hear they sound and play great too....

Spruce
Feb-10-2005, 1:44pm
"...I must say that you better work on those points if you are truly copying a Loar! "

You want them to maybe look like this, MandoJeremy??

Lee
Feb-10-2005, 1:46pm
My bad; got my builders mixed up. #I was recalling that Brentrup Torch and Wire inlay. #Looks as darn nice as the Gibson pic below it, maybe better.
<ducking and running for cover>

David M.
Feb-10-2005, 2:32pm
You know, I wonder if this is the real Gvessel and if someone's not taken his identity and keeps posting these stupid remarks under his name? Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Because if it was me, I'd have quit talking LONG ago to keep myself from digging that grave even deeper...

atetone
Feb-10-2005, 2:38pm
Here's the way I see it.
There are builders out there that are doing fantastic fit and finish work. Unbelievable stuff. Attention to detail to the Nth degree. Wonders to behold!
But that is not the way it always was and there might be an arguement to be made that maybe that has lately become the focus.
It was for me for a while without a doubt, but I now have relaxed on that a bit and am now looking more at the overall mandolin.
There is nothing wrong with wanting absolute perfection in the fit and finish department but in the end the instrument has to have more.
Playability, tone, comfort, character?, vibe,,,, it's a package deal.
An absolutely immaculate looking mandolin that is technically, clinically, antiseptically perfect does not neccesarily fit the bill. Sometimes I think we get too caught up in that and forget the rest.
I personally have probably swung too far the other way because aesthetics have gone a little too far down the list for my own good in the resale department.
Somewhere in the middle ground of all of this is the overall package. You might have to give up a bit on one aspect to gain something on the other until you reach your comfort zone.
Generally speaking Gibson mandolins can't compete with some of the best small builders in the side to side fit and finish competition.
That's because it is not their main focus.They are selling "their" package. It is what it is, and people who like it buy it.
The independent buider may have a different package which focusses on different criteria. It is what it is, and people who like it buy it.
Different strokes for different folks.
What's the problem?

sunburst
Feb-10-2005, 2:43pm
Generally speaking Gibson mandolins can't compete with some of the best small builders in the side to side fit and finish competition.
That's because it is not their main focus.They are selling "their" package. It is what it is, and people who like it buy it.
The independent buider may have a different package which focusses on different criteria. It is what it is, and people who like it buy it.
Different strokes for different folks.
What's the problem?
Hype. That's the problem.

atetone
Feb-10-2005, 2:59pm
sunburst, whos' hype John?
Or do you mean that hype #from all sources has got us all chasing our tails? Hmmm,,, http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Spruce
Feb-10-2005, 3:05pm
"You know, I wonder if this is the real Gvessel and if someone's not taken his identity and keeps posting these stupid remarks under his name? # Because if it was me, I'd have quit talking LONG ago to keep myself from digging that grave even deeper... "

What "grave"??

Gary has a thriving violin business in a town with way too many violin makers, and has no stake whatsover in the mandolin-making game other than throwing out the odd mandolin now and again...

(No financial interest, blah blah blah, unlike a lot of folks who hang out here). # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

GTison
Feb-10-2005, 3:15pm
My point. Is there HYPE in the LOAR and it's sound?? flawless workmanship??? MOJO???

sunburst
Feb-10-2005, 3:40pm
Any time I hear...

flawless
perfect
best
gold standard
etc.

I hear hype.

words I like better are...

good
excellent
fine
favorite
etc.

mandoJeremy
Feb-10-2005, 4:37pm
Spruce, I didn't mean from that angle. I meant from the top or back view. Look again at this picture and you will see that the point isn't sharp enough and doesn't extend out quite as far as it should. That was the point I was making.

Steve G
Feb-10-2005, 5:13pm
Well just for weight, my 2nd mandolin is a '96 Gibson A5 and it sure plays and sounds great. Not as loud and sweet as my custom F5 but it sure holds up and I play it a lot. But after playing some of the new Gibsons I sure would'nt order one without playing it first. But there is a brand or two that I would.

bdisp
Feb-10-2005, 6:08pm
My hat goes off the the GIBSON guys. Well said. I build $100M+ buildings for a living. Don't tell me you can build one better.............SHOW ME.

Sorry folks........I had to say something.

testore
Feb-10-2005, 6:55pm
I haven't said I can make one better,but there are several makers who do everytime. Quality isn't an accident,neither is consistancy,good or bad.

Jim Hilburn
Feb-10-2005, 7:22pm
Wouldn't it be more fair to compare his work to a comparably priced current Gibson than to a Loar?

Larry Simonson
Feb-10-2005, 10:22pm
Testore, I have this feeling that if your mandolins had emotions they would be both disappointed and embarrassed by your tirades.

steve in tampa
Feb-11-2005, 6:46am
Gibson spelled backwards is "no s big". Maybe its a secret message we are all missing. I like my Gibson pretty good, and can whup most french wine snobs pretty easy. REEEEEEEEEEE dick u lus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lefty&French
Feb-11-2005, 7:20am
Hi Steve. It's an international forum here, so please keep french wine outside of this... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

J. Mark Lane
Feb-11-2005, 7:26am
Hi Steve. It's an international forum here, so please keep french wine outside of this... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The problem with French wine is, it's rather inconsistent.

futrconslr
Feb-11-2005, 8:47am
Mr. Hilburn,

That is the smartest thing anyone on here has said on this thread. I like Gibson OAI. I like the people and they make good instruments. Some better than others but if you have three or four, one is usually going to sound good with the potential to be exceptional. Of the small builders, I think you can only say that about a select few. From strictly a CONSUMER point of view, I dont care what anyone did at the turn of the century. I cant afford a loar and even though I may be in the position one of these days to own one, I doubt very seriously I would lay 100k or more down. I have a son....100k would provide SOMETHING very nice for him! lol I just think that before everyone goes slamming Mr. Testore too much lets make sure its a fair comparison. After all, I think even Charlie says he cant re-create a Loar......only something with the same specs,. At least I think thats the pitch. They dont sound too shabby.

futrconslr
Feb-11-2005, 8:48am
Hey darryl,

Since we have been talking about consistency....my understanding is that all loars were very consistent in the types of wood used, finish, wood cut, points and built to very tight tolerences....If I am wrong please correct me. <tounge in cheek>

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-11-2005, 8:52am
Wouldn't it be more fair to compare his work to a comparably priced current Gibson than to a Loar?
OK..

grandmainger
Feb-11-2005, 9:25am
Hi Steve. It's an international forum here, so please keep french wine outside of this... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The problem with French wine is, it's rather inconsistent.
Now Mark, I will have to send you some samples for you to test out. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

timothy.c.hicks
Feb-11-2005, 9:42am
Darryl:

Getting back to Gibson... You are the guru... so how close are MM specs to Loar specs? Do other builders come closer? If so who?

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-11-2005, 10:18am
There is no question in my mind that the new Gibson Master Models are the closest thing to a Loar that has been made on any consistent basis. I have seen only a couple of other efforts that can compare. Those are one off deals that the builder himself probably couldn't do again. Some other high-end builders are doing an exceptional job too, but their main focus is not at perfect duplication..they have their own agenda

mandoman4807
Feb-11-2005, 11:05am
Mr. Hilburn,

#I cant afford a loar and even though I may be in the position one of these days to own one, I doubt very seriously I would lay 100k or more down. #I have a son....100k would provide SOMETHING very nice for him! #lol



Well, if I had 100K+ to spend, I would upgrade my motor coach and attend every Bluegrass fest around. Were, I would be more than happy to play my 2002 MM at every jam possible. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif


#Darrell

steve in tampa
Feb-11-2005, 11:24am
To clarify,
I was referring to snobbery about French wine, not the actual snobbery of the French people. Loosely using this as as example of the silliness of adult pissing contests. Never fails to amaze me how #### gets more attention than intellect. Why just turn on the TV or listen to the radio for proof!

grandmainger
Feb-11-2005, 11:36am
To clarify,
I was referring to snobbery about French wine, not the actual snobbery of the French people. Loosely using this as as example of the silliness of adult pissing contests.
Steve, no offence taken at all! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I love my country more than most things in my life, I really do. But as I always say, I wish it wasn't so full of French people http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


A votre santé! http://www.grandmainger.com/cafe/boire.gif

Germain

sunburst
Feb-11-2005, 12:08pm
I love my country more than most things in my life, I really do. But as I always say, I wish it wasn't so full of French people http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That's funny!
I live in a different country, but I feel somewhat the same way about mine sometimes!

grandmainger
Feb-11-2005, 1:35pm
That's funny!
I live in a different country, but I feel somewhat the same way about mine sometimes!
That is actually the main factor why I've lived in the UK for 9 years! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nolan
Feb-11-2005, 1:38pm
Gibson is the best. Get over it! You know it's true!

luckylarue
Feb-11-2005, 4:32pm
"The best" is whatever you're playing at the moment. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

man doh
Feb-11-2005, 6:43pm
Does Grisman endorse a certain type of black tape for his Gibson? I get better tone out of American made tape than the new stuff from walmart.

Who will they be copying 80 years from now? T bags?

atetone
Feb-11-2005, 10:53pm
Hey!! was the Whiteface A3 the inspiration for the color of #that Gibson Fridge??
Oh no,,, sorry,, that was Amana-white wasn't it?

Scotti Adams
Feb-11-2005, 11:19pm
..hey Grandmainger..I want that emoticon you have there...the guy drinkin....where can I get it?...

sunburst
Feb-11-2005, 11:40pm
Scotti, if this works,(we'll see) all you have to do is clip it.

mandoJeremy
Feb-11-2005, 11:40pm
I guarantee that you guys will all be laughing when you see the new Gibson Signature Artist Models that are coming out. I will say no more but you will just have to wait and see!

mandoJeremy
Feb-11-2005, 11:41pm
Since Gibson sucks and all!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Scotti Adams
Feb-11-2005, 11:48pm
ok...Im ignorant...how do I clip it?

mandoJeremy
Feb-11-2005, 11:50pm
Just a guess....but that supposed Ronnie McCoury signature model that was mentioned a while back would be Gibson's approach to an X-braced model since his Gil is. #No, I don't know anything besides hints from what was posted here and what I have discussed with others.

sunburst
Feb-11-2005, 11:59pm
Scotti, I have a Mac, so I don't know if this will work for you:
Put your cursor on the icon, click and drag it to the desktop, and drop it.
Then post it as an attached image.

Pete Braccio
Feb-12-2005, 2:08am
ok...Im ignorant...how do I clip it?

Try a right mouse button click and select "Save image as" (or whatever is similar to that).

Pete

grandmainger
Feb-12-2005, 5:08am
ok...Im ignorant...how do I clip it?
Scotty, It's a good one isn't it? You're not the first to ask me for it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Easy as pie:
- Right-click on the image, select "Save Picture/Image As...", select where you want to save it and press Save/OK
http://www.grandmainger.com/cafe/boire.gif

Alternatively:
- Get it from the source by clicking on this link and selecting Save from the File menu
http://www.grandmainger.com/cafe/boire.gif

Scott Tichenor
Feb-12-2005, 5:19am
I'm closing this one down. The ambulances have all left. The wreck has been cleaned up and the bodies have been taken to the hospital. You may now shut off your peecees and introduce yourselves to the people you've been wondering about that live in your house.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif