Opening up and breaking in

[Ben Cooper]

Ok, I will admit it. I don't know really what is meant by a mandolin "opening up". I am guessing this could be a very long discussion OR over with one reply. What exactly is it? How does it happen? How does one notice any changes? Is it like when we used to get a new pair of jeans and they were stiff as a board until they had been worn and washed about a hundred times and then they felt comfortable? (Ok, this doesn't happen with jeans anymore with all the pre-washed cloth and stuff). This is something that has really been on my mind of late.
Thanks for any info or words of wisdom!
Ben

[stevedenver]

yes

It is real. Some instruments open more than others, some take a lot longer to do so. Never assume , however, that miracles will occur, with a not so good sounding instrument. Ie don't be fooled by someone telling you itll be great once it opens. A good instrument will sound better. A dog , not so much. Never buy with the hope that 'itll open'. If it doesn't float you boat when new , it probably wont in five years, or you may never keep it long enough to find out.

What can happen, is that the wood loosens in an instrument. I don't know the science.

This in turn changes the sound of the instrument. It is subtle and hard to describe, but, it is very noticeable in some cases
The instrument, when it opens, and this is gradual, will sound bigger, richer, sweeter. (geez that helps a lot...NOT).

Think, perhaps, like this. You have your stereo tone controls all to the mid position. Then you add, perhaps, a little more bass, more mid, and if it were possible, a tiny bit of 'verb, ie the sound just seems to literally have more space filling character.

Another example, imho, would be to play a Martin with regular bracing, versus one with scalloped bracing. While not an exact analogy, you would get and idea of how, over years, a similar change MAY occur.

This happens with consistent and hard playing, and takes a couple of years. Mandos, especially tone bar braced, imho, longer. What is hard playing im my mind, about an hour or more, not only single string fiddle tune stuff, but banging chords, chopping, letting it ring and let those open strings sing. YOu can literally feel the mando 'humming' or vibrating against you as you beat on it. (not literally beat, not damaging, but 'playing with force and gusto!!" LOL

Adirondack spruce too. It is light, but stiff. It takes some really hard playing to knock it 'loose'. My archtop L5C has addy, and now after three years, its so much sweeter in treble and mid balance, and bass is also more pronounced.

My Addy topped mando is taking about 5 years, my englemann topped fern took a bit less. While im sure top, sides, and back all change, it seem to be the top that makes the most significant change in sound.


My fern really changed after I played it relentlessly, and lots of hard, open ringing chords, and chops etc, it is more resonant, and the treble mid bass balance is rounder and sweeter, bass has more thump-if there is mando thump- and is more alive and responsive to dynamics. Ie play it hard, and when you then play soft, its more nuanced and responsive.

This too happens with guitars, archtops and flattops. It can be expedited, im told, but leaving the instrument close to a stereo speaker playing loud and allowing the instrument to vibrate.

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks.

I don't know if this helped, its a hard thing to describe, and likely , the owner or chief player will be the only one to really hear the change.

[almeriastrings]

Complex and controversial topic. Much disputed.

Personally, yes - I do believe such changes occur. Precisely what the changes are (there could be many) are debatable. My opinion is that changes in resin oxidization within the wood, changes in the glue, and certainly changes in the finish are quite noticeable during the first months (and few years) after a new build. You can accept that these changes affect the sound, or reject it... for myself, I am convinced they do have an impact. As for vibrations/playing time. Harder to pin down to some specific physical cause and effect, but subjectively, many people report it.

[Rodney Riley]

yes

It is real...

YOu can literally feel the mando 'humming' or vibrating against you...

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks...

How my Godin does. My tinnitus keeps me from hearing the sound changes, but my fingers really feel it. :) Was shocking and fantastic the first time it happened.

Hasn't happened to my Weber yet. :(

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I agree as to the science of exactly how this process....no idea, but I can atest to it being a real phenomenon....Cedar tops though seem to not change much or "open up" it seems to be mostly Spruce wood. Be interesting to investigate this and pin down the science on this as to what actually happens after playing a new instrument over a period of time.

[Shelagh Moore]

Personally, I perceive (individual perception is an important consideration here) that many instruments do "open up" over use and time. The science underlying why this happens is likely to be complex and based on many factors... I won't attempt to go into this again as I didn't appreciate one or two of the comments last time I attempted to do so in a previous thread on the subject. Can it be scientifically measured and verified? Very difficult I think, as it would be difficult to set up a scientifically-valid comparison of completed instruments.

[Marty Jacobson]

The question is... are you breaking in the mandolin, or is the mandolin breaking in you?

[bratsche]

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks.


I've never experienced that in such a short time. I rotate preferences on my instruments all the time, which often means one stays in the case a month or three, and when I take it out, it hasn't "closed" a bit. Decades in storage, sure. But they've opened up again in a few days of playing, not weeks... talking about newly acquired older and neglected (unstrung) violins and violas in this last part.

By far, the most dramatic opening of sound occurs with a new instrument. I suspect that the deal with already-broken in instruments that have merely been unplayed for a month or several months is a perception based on need to get oneself reacquainted with that instrument. (Personally can't imagine that process taking weeks, though.)

bratsche

[dfalkiewicz]

I believe this is a combination of my technique improving the sound along with the wood maturing over time! But that is as techie as I get on this one. I like would was said above, if your mando sounds cool from the get go, it will only sound better as it ages!

[Ben Cooper]

the question is... Are you breaking in the mandolin, or is the mandolin breaking in you?

lol!! ;)

[Ben Cooper]

yes

It is real. Some instruments open more than others, some take a lot longer to do so. Never assume , however, that miracles will occur, with a not so good sounding instrument. Ie don't be fooled by someone telling you itll be great once it opens. A good instrument will sound better. A dog , not so much. Never buy with the hope that 'itll open'. If it doesn't float you boat when new , it probably wont in five years, or you may never keep it long enough to find out.

What can happen, is that the wood loosens in an instrument. I don't know the science.

This in turn changes the sound of the instrument. It is subtle and hard to describe, but, it is very noticeable in some cases
The instrument, when it opens, and this is gradual, will sound bigger, richer, sweeter. (geez that helps a lot...NOT).

Think, perhaps, like this. You have your stereo tone controls all to the mid position. Then you add, perhaps, a little more bass, more mid, and if it were possible, a tiny bit of 'verb, ie the sound just seems to literally have more space filling character.

Another example, imho, would be to play a Martin with regular bracing, versus one with scalloped bracing. While not an exact analogy, you would get and idea of how, over years, a similar change MAY occur.

This happens with consistent and hard playing, and takes a couple of years. Mandos, especially tone bar braced, imho, longer. What is hard playing im my mind, about an hour or more, not only single string fiddle tune stuff, but banging chords, chopping, letting it ring and let those open strings sing. YOu can literally feel the mando 'humming' or vibrating against you as you beat on it. (not literally beat, not damaging, but 'playing with force and gusto!!" LOL

Adirondack spruce too. It is light, but stiff. It takes some really hard playing to knock it 'loose'. My archtop L5C has addy, and now after three years, its so much sweeter in treble and mid balance, and bass is also more pronounced.

My Addy topped mando is taking about 5 years, my englemann topped fern took a bit less. While im sure top, sides, and back all change, it seem to be the top that makes the most significant change in sound.


My fern really changed after I played it relentlessly, and lots of hard, open ringing chords, and chops etc, it is more resonant, and the treble mid bass balance is rounder and sweeter, bass has more thump-if there is mando thump- and is more alive and responsive to dynamics. Ie play it hard, and when you then play soft, its more nuanced and responsive.

This too happens with guitars, archtops and flattops. It can be expedited, im told, but leaving the instrument close to a stereo speaker playing loud and allowing the instrument to vibrate.

Finally, instruments, once broken in, but then unplayed for a month or more, will close, and re-open. The re-opening usually takes a couple of weeks.

I don't know if this helped, its a hard thing to describe, and likely , the owner or chief player will be the only one to really hear the change.

Wow! Thanks lots! Very informative!

[Bob Clark]

Hi Ben,

Some say mandolins open up, others say they don't. I believe I have experienced it with two instruments, both of which were purchased new. One instrument took about six months before I noticed a change, the other took a little over a year. The change didn't occur all at once, it was gradual. But it was at those time points that I noticed the improvement. I don't think it was my playing that improved (although I sure wish it would), because the change was instrument-specific. I really believe a new instrument improves for a period of time, as it is played.

As has been pointed out above, I would not purchase an instrument I didn't like with the hope that it would improve. But if you purchase an instrument that you really like and it improves, think of it as a bonus.

Best wishes, Bob

[TheArimathean]

I think it has something to do with the placebo affect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect)...

[stevedenver]

I think it has something to do with the placebo affect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect)...

Well I dunno, but,
it might be , as mentioned, you get more 'dialed into' technique and improve-I know to some extent this happens when I really focus on accuracy on my D 28 with fingerpicks-or without-there is a way of coaxing more out.

I mentioned the sleep factor, because it was indeed while playing a lot, daily for hours, fingerstyle (ie fairly soft compared to flat picking) that I not only heard my Martin open, but after a hiatus , while playing electric , it sat, and I later returned, and it had, seemingly 'closed' and again took a couple of weeks to get big again. Even my teacher commented on this. I don't , however, poopoo the idea it may well be all in the head, or technique.

It might be that the wood 'seasons', in a way, ie the medularly grain crystalizes and gets harder, ditto glue you get less softness in the top wood.

While I really cant say, I know I have heard old an Yamaha, an old Harmony Sovereign, and have an old well played Ibanez mahog dred, all of which just sound far 'bigger' than what I recall when they (and granted, I, was new).

If it makes any difference, imho, none of this occurs, imho, with solid body electrics or basses.

However! there is no question that electric guitar amp speakers break in, the highs soften, the bass gets looser-I suggest that while a wooden instrument differs in materials from a loudspeaker, I would suggest that the same thing may be occurring.

I don't discount the possibility that I am crazy, but I don't think I am....LOL.

[OldSausage]

Leave it under a steel pyramid for 3 days, and I guarantee it will sound better. If anyone's interested, I have a few steel pyramids left over from my old razor-blade sharpening days, only $39.99.




[Note: Joke. I do not really have these items available, and am not really asking for money].

[JeffD]

Which is which and whether its real. Well opening up is how, to many folks, a new mandolin will, over the course of many months or a year or more even, gradually develop a warmer more complex tone. Attributed to many things, related to how the vibrations move the wood cells in ways that line them up with the vibratory modes thus optimizing the said vibrations. There are folks who claim it doesn't happen, and there others who claim that what the claimants describe is in reality a change in perception. You will see many adherents to both sides making comments here.

Breaking in is a the phenomenon that occurs in the first week or so of playing , where a new instrument becomes louder as all the parts and pieces get worked in together for the first time. There are folks who claim it doesn't happen, and there others who claim that what the claimants describe is in reality a change in perception. You will see many adherents to both sides making comments here.

Many are sure, from direct experience, that something happens. Others are sure that, since its not scientifically verified, it is more perception than reality.

It makes for long conversation and entertainment.

[OldSausage]

Claiming the arguments of each side are equal is also taking a position.

[Michael Bridges]

Is Not!

[OldSausage]

Is Not!

:)

[Tom Coletti]

There's a few theories as to whether or not it's the wood opening up, improved playing, or just becoming one with a particular instrument to the point that you can produce the best tone out of it...

I personally think that it's a bit of all of them. I started out on a well-used Kentucky, so I don't think that it "opened up" much after I received it, more of just adjusting to the instrument and, over the course of four years, figuring out how to get it to run at its max potential. However, I recently upgraded to a new Breedlove FF. It sounded very sweet in the shop, and even though it was a little stiff and the bottom end was choked off a bit, it was still an improvement over the Kentucky. I adjusted my pick technique in the first week, but after a few weeks of frequent and hard playing, It started to sound much better, especially in the bottom end. It was less stiff and it rang with more clarity and presence, and the playability improved considerably. So yeah, I think that there may be some truth to the "opening up" theory as well as the others, and it is most noticeable either with a very new instrument or with a fairly old one; not too much in the middle ground from my experience except for how you develop as a player, which, in my opinion, is where the real improvement happens...

Cheers,

--Tom

[vegas]

This is a topic that has many opinions and theories about if it actually happens and how, but I think most people agree a stringed instrument seems to improve with continued use for a long time. How long? Well, generally speaking, the vintage instruments have a richer and fuller sound than most right out of the box but again, there are so many other reasons for this it is nearly impossible to point to a single cause and effect. I spent some time searching the net and found all sorts of theories at various message boards mostly involving guitar and if I remember correctly there was even an acoustic study done under purportedly scientific lab conditions which failed to turn up any measurable differences over the period of time the study used. As I recall, a great debate raged about the validity of the study and the methods were attacked as "unsound" (Ha!) by several posters who claimed acoustical engineering expertise.

Anyway, this theory eventually led to the invention of the Tonerite which claimed to produce vibrations directly to the top of your stringed instrument which would advance the aging process and "open up" your instrument after a week or so while you were sleeping instead of having to spend several hours every day for a year or more to produce the desired result.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=tonerite&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=7369456529&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=450235992043095647&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_6bd0pf0rib_e

As you can see, the device is not cheap but various people used them and claimed they could hear a difference worthy of the cost. After reading a few threads on some acoustic guitar forums on this topic, I found a guy who said he avoided the Tonerite expense and got the same result using a $15.00 aquarium pump and that the vibration put out by the pump were the same principle as the Tonerite. I figured what the 'ell, I'm not spending $150.00 plus for a Tonerite, but I will experiment with the $15.00 aquarium pump. I actually only spent $12.00 because I figured the cheapest, loudest rattler was the one that would do what I wanted best. I tried it and I swear, I could hear an improvement in a 2011 D-28 I picked up on eBay after a few days of continuous application. It was the guitar I was most interested in improving and I feel I got some positive results for a minor cost. If it was only a placebo effect, I'm only out $12.00 and I can live with that.

I haven't tried it on a mandolin and am somewhat reluctant to take that step. They are smaller and more delicate an instrument than a dreadnaught and I would worry something might happen of terrible consequence to such a delicate little body.

[OldSausage]

I dunno, throw some water and gravel in there and you could rear some guppies while you're at it.

[OldSausage]

Look, here's an experiment everyone can do. I know most of you have dozens of mandolins, so it will be no problem. For those with only one, do it as a thought experiment. Take the mandolin you own that is the worst of the bunch. Think hard about how bad it is, and how, for the money you spent on it, it ought to be better. Think of all the things you dislike about its tone and construction. Strum it awkwardly, and hear how crappy it sounds. Sigh deeply.

Now lock it in a cupboard for a week. During that week, start to think about all the things you miss about that mandolin. If possible, watch videos of people who are better pickers than you playing a similar model. Contemplate how small improvements in your technique could have made a lot more of the good features of that mandolin. Maybe imagine that Adam Steffey has said he locks all his mandolins in a cupboard for a week, and it makes them awesome.

After 7 days, take it out of the cupboard. Polish it carefully so it shines, put on a new set of strings, and set the intonation just right. Now, clean up some of the mess in your room, sit down in your favourite picking chair and play three or four of your best tunes.

I guarantee you will be impressed with the results of this absolutely free treatment.

[greg_tsam]

This is a "can o' worms" topic with no end in sight. I wanna believe. I really, really wanna believe. I wanna believe in unicorns and fairies, too. However, I was playing a '45 Martin D-18 and couldn't get over how it sounded. Beautiful, resonant and the notes seemed to last forever. So I want to believe.

[JeffD]

Claiming the arguments of each side are equal is also taking a position.

I wasn't saying they were equal, or measuring, scoring or weighing them in any way. They are equal in this: Neither has been scientifically verified to the satisfaction of the other side of the argument. Oh and this: neither side can be dismissed out of hand.

[vegas]

I think most people agree the older, vintage instruments sound better than brand new ones. There is something that happens to an acoustic instrument over time which improvers its sound. Lots of people have used quasi-scientific ways of explaining it which have caused people to experiment and a company like ToneRite to make a lot of money. I have a solid background in Biology and the theories of resins evaporating inside the wood cells to make them all little hollow echo chambers over time has sound reasoning but no proof other than my ear to tell me my older instruments have a tone which is fuller, more pleasing and unique.

If you've never been in New England during the Fall leaf change referred to as "leaf season" when all the tourists arrive, you have not seen Fall colors. I know. I lived there long ago. There is no film made which accurately captures the iridescence of those colors nor can capture and present the full spectra in a photo, digital or not which in any way compares to seeing them with the eye. Perhaps the ear can detect subtleties of sound scientific instruments do not. Our hearing is party responsible for our being able to eat and avoid being eaten so I think the millions of years hearing has been developing in mammals, it has been fairly finely tuned. It's also clear humans react to music and respond to it in much more complex ways that other animals, even other primates, so I'm going with a musician's ear is more tuned to the broad range of sounds and their mixture than any instruments which have been developed to measure sound. If somebody can show me that is not true with scientific results I will gladly accept it because I'm a believer in science over superstition every day, all day. I'm not going to be offended if somebody proves to me my brain is playing tricks to make me think I hear something that isn't there because I know that also happens and is part of the wonderful human experience which makes us able to enjoy music in the first place.

This is one of those myths I think would be hard to bust because it would be so very difficult to control all factors which physically make sound in complex acoustic wooden instruments and that you could produce two instruments that would be exactly the same. They are, after all, like snow flakes which is why nobody here questions you need to play something as quirky as a mandolin instead of just ordering it in the mail since all models of a particular builder will be built exactly alike and sound the same.

Visit New England in Leaf Season for at least a few days making sure you get there at it's peak which is different by latitude and elevation but if you go there and snap photos of the very best leaf displays, you will be amazed at how much color is lost when you see the pictures. I'm sure digital will improve the results but you will finally see what I am talking about how the eye sees things even digital film can't capture.

Yes, humans are remarkably silly creatures willing to believe all sorts of ludicrous ideas such as sharping razor blades using pyramids. The willingness to believe that particular superstition was a better measure of how much weed you smoked back then than anything else. At least there are rational explanations for how and why a wooden instrument would change over time and if you can't hear a difference between an aged instrument and a brand new one, well I think you may not have the best musical ear.

How about hearing from the people who know more about what makes good sound in instruments than anybody else, our builders? Do you guys think instruments improve over time and if so, why?

Anyway, my little experiment only cost me $12.00 and was fun to do, so if nothing else, it provided cheap and harmless entertainment.

[M.Marmot]

What exactly is it? How does it happen? How does one notice any changes? Is it like when we used to get a new pair of jeans and they were stiff as a board until they had been worn and washed about a hundred times and then they felt comfortable?
Ben

I'm not going or trying to take up a position against those who have had many more mandolins than me or more time to experience them opening, but i'll tell you what makes sense to me in my own experience.

Each mandolin will have its own peculiarities and it will take their owner: player an amount of time to adjust themselves and their playing technique to better suit and draw on these peculiarities.

For instance, if you start playing a mandolin with a different neck width, or bridge height, a deeper body than you are used to, it will need time to adjust until you are truely comfortable playing it. For instance, if you start to play a different style mandolin than you are used to, a bowlback, a flatback round hole, an f-hole mandolin, it will need until you are truely comfortable playing it.

For me the key is being comfortable and familiar with your instrument - which may or may not coincide with the amount of time it takes for a mandolin to open up - the more comfortable you are the more intuitive the sound.

Back to the jeans analogy - have you ever bought or been gifted an item of clothing that might have, at first, gone against your usual fashion sense? 104154

If so, do you remember how uncomfortable and self concious you were at first when you were wearing said item?

Then maybe you got some compliments on your new sartorial excellence 104155

or maybe you just had to wear that outfit so often that you started to forget about it - you lost the self-concious feeling and became comfortable in this outfit - heck, you even started to buy more clothes just like it - a compliment is a compliment after all.

Then, one day you go to pull one of your old former favorite pairs of trousers out of the closet and you find - 'hey - those pants legs aint flared enough, that denim blend just aint as comfortable as polyester, and who wants to wear a sensible navy blue when theres something with a bit of character' 104156

Maybe mandolins, maybe even with the constant change of strings and plectrums, maybe they do open up - i can't prove otherwise - or maybe with time and practice you just grow into them.
104157

[Stephen Perry]

The first few minutes on a good violin are really amazing, first time it's up to tension. The next week or so are blazingly obvious. Goes back to sleep, then wakes up a bit faster every day. When the client brings the thing back after six months, the change is generally striking.

Now on a $400 trade fiddle I'm not getting that kind of feedback from the instrument.

There's no great secret here - I know several makers who like to have a friend borrow a new instrument for a few weeks before they start shopping it around just to get the raw edge off. I had one that was really stiff I loaned out for a year - made all the difference.

But cheap instruments usually don't change much. And experienced ears used to calibrating instruments likely help.

It's like my mandovoodoo work - if someone can't hear the things one needs to hear to do the work, then one cannot do the work. Gianna can hear and manipulate wood just fine, as can most (all?) piano tuners. I have a piano maker friend who can hear everything I can and then some - we're going to do a piano after a while, when he makes his next one. But most people can't. So there's some educated listening perhaps required, and a certain detached objectivity.

I can actually design the science to test all this, I'm just busy and don't see the need. It's pretty obvious, the initial and subsequent break in of good instruments.

One finds this with engines, transmissions, tires, suspensions. I also have encountered instruments that seem soggy and less than they were, as if they are no longer stiff enough. Like a damper in a motorcycle suspension that's no longer doing its job well enough. Something I seem to have going on at the moment.

[katygrasslady]

Considering the sophistication of audio recording equipment available, I don't understand why someone hasn't studied this scientifically. Record an instrument out of the box, then monthly and annually record it again with all the exact same equipment. I really don't know much about what professional recording equipment can measure, but wouldn't there be some measurable, objective differences?
Sounds like a good project for one of you pro's. Maybe write off the expense of a new instrument for 'business-research'?
Katy

[Tobin]

I agree that the 'opening up' phenomenon is likely a combination of a lot of factors, including physical factors in the instrument as well as the player's technique changing over time to suit that instrument. I've noticed a huge change in my mandolin since it was new. And it can't be explained by technique alone. Simply playing a chord with open and fretted notes sounds completely different now than it did 4 years ago when I bought it.

But you know what's weird? I notice my mandolin's tone changing every day when I play it. It usually starts to become obvious about 30 to 45 minutes after I start playing. I rather tend to think that this daily change is more related to my fingers and wrists getting warmed up and loose, and not a physical change in the instrument. But it has become very obvious to me that my mandolin playing starts to sound a lot better after 30 to 45 minutes of playing, and really gets into the 'sweet spot', tone-wise.

[Stephen Perry]

I had spectrograms (or whatever they are called) showing break in and mandovoodoo effects at one point. Someone hassled me about them not showing this or that. I'm not convinced that science will do anything useful in this debate. It's such a well-known and relied upon effect, not really worth the effort. Now using analysis to figure out how we prefer things to break in would be nice.

Most people in small business are horribly busy. I'm juggling a professional practice that is out of control with still getting into my new workshop, sorting out old supplies, putting in a dishwasher, etc. Adding a completely non-paying task that requires some rigor and will do nothing but get me grief is a low priority. Now if I had a grant from the National Mandolin Foundation . . . .

[OldSausage]

Considering the sophistication of audio recording equipment available, I don't understand why someone hasn't studied this scientifically. Record an instrument out of the box, then monthly and annually record it again with all the exact same equipment. I really don't know much about what professional recording equipment can measure, but wouldn't there be some measurable, objective differences?
Sounds like a good project for one of you pro's. Maybe write off the expense of a new instrument for 'business-research'?
Katy

I record my mandolins with monotonous regularity, but without scientific precision or scrutiny. All I can say from doing this is that, if there is a change, it is not so big that you would notice over a period of a few years. With a brand new mandolin, with two recordings made after I first got it and a few weeks later, on a blind test I couldn't tell you which was which. On the other hand, your playing and the tone you as a player produce will likely improve dramatically over that time if you work at it diligently. And also, a mandolin sounds great with a polish and a nice new set of strings.

I'm well aware that psychologically it feels like big changes happen, but the recordings tell a different tale.

[Dobe]

There's an absolute physical and chemical change that happens on the sub-atomic scale, over time. Not to get too technical, there's a chemical reaction that takes place from the percussive strikes. This enables trace atmosphereic Molybdenum to combine with a recently discovered oxygen isotope, (see research of particle physicist Raghavan Jayakumar) , referred to as 'JO'. Since it's such a minute amount of these elements naturally occurring in the atmosphere, it takes decades of play before the buildup of MO-JO imparts a noticeable effect. But as anyone whose played a vintage instrument from the golden era can tell you, there is a significant difference, The older instruments tend to have tons of MO JO !

104170

[vegas]

I had spectrograms (or whatever they are called) showing break in and mandovoodoo effects at one point. Someone hassled me about them not showing this or that. I'm not convinced that science will do anything useful in this debate. It's such a well-known and relied upon effect, not really worth the effort. Now using analysis to figure out how we prefer things to break in would be nice.

Most people in small business are horribly busy. I'm juggling a professional practice that is out of control with still getting into my new workshop, sorting out old supplies, putting in a dishwasher, etc. Adding a completely non-paying task that requires some rigor and will do nothing but get me grief is a low priority. Now if I had a grant from the National Mandolin Foundation . . . .


...and even if you got that grant and produced a study which supported a side in this debate, I bet you would get all sorts of grief and criticism from the side the study disproved. Like you said, it would "bring nothing but grief."

In reading all the posts on various boards on this topic, I've concluded it has many similarities to religious belief. Many people are very passionate about what they believe they've observed and will become extremely cranky if you offer any opinion which contradicts it. It's the old "I know what I know" attitude people seem willing to battle one over because it involves feelings and experiences that are very personal and arguing against the belief is actually perceived by many as arguing against the person.

Like I said, I would welcome a scientific study on this topic and willingly accept the results but even that is unlikely to happen for many of the reasons Mr. Perry suggested. Who knows? Maybe the ToneRite people have one in progress right now and will dazzle us with the spectacular results requiring each of us to run out and buy their product........or not.

:))

[OldSausage]

Point is, if a scientific study is even required, the effect must be pretty small. I'm interested in changes in my instrument that I can hear with my own actual ears - anything else will not benefit me at all.

[foldedpath]

Considering the sophistication of audio recording equipment available, I don't understand why someone hasn't studied this scientifically. Record an instrument out of the box, then monthly and annually record it again with all the exact same equipment. I really don't know much about what professional recording equipment can measure, but wouldn't there be some measurable, objective differences?
Sounds like a good project for one of you pro's. Maybe write off the expense of a new instrument for 'business-research'?
Katy

It depends on what you want to test for. Of the various descriptions people use for improvement after opening up or being played-in, some are subjective and difficult to test. Words like "warmth," "sweetness," "clarity" can be loosely correlated to different parts of the frequency range, but you'd need a bunch of people doing double blind listening tests to figure out if everyone means the same thing by "warmth."

However, there is one thing that can be tested scientifically and fairly easily, and that's increase in volume. It's the one consistent claim made by people when they talk about instruments opening up. To eliminate the human factor, you just put a mandolin in a jig, set up a microphone as part of the jig, and make a simple mechanical plucker gadget for the strings. It could be anything from a pendulum swing from a fixed starting point, to a slowed-down version of Eddie Van Halen's "picks on a drill." Make a recording when the instrument is new. The resulting .WAV file won't sound very musical, but we're not looking for musicality here. We just want a waveform with a measurable peak amplitude.

Then, do whatever you want to break it in. Set it in a vibrator gadget, place it in front of your speakers playing Monroe full blast, or just play the snot out of it. Do that for however long you want -- a few weeks, months, or years. Then put it back in the recording/plucking jig, and make another recording. If the instrument is now louder, the waveform won't lie. It will show up as increased amplitude, or it won't. This method could measure any increase in note sustain too.

Do a test like this once and publish the results, and it's the bare beginning of finding out something. Have several people repeat the test with similar results, and then we'll really start to know what's going on (or not). It would take tests on a variety of instruments at different quality levels and price points to establish a trend, or threshold, but it's not impossible to do over a period of years.

Now, I understand why small shop luthiers and stores aren't going to go to this trouble to prove a point. I do think it's interesting that people who sell gadgets or services that supposedly advance the break-in process -- those who have the most financial incentive in proving results -- never offer this kind of test result.

My personal belief is that some small changes occur over time due to the structural/chemical changes in wood as it ages over a period of years (and for a brief time, more quickly after it's first built into an instrument). I'm much more skeptical about improvement due to vibration or player involvement. When people say it takes time for an instrument to wake up after not being played for a while, I'm more likely to believe it's the player waking up and not the instrument. I think it's also telling that every claim for changes over time is always in the direction of improvement. It never gets worse, or sounds just different in a neutral way. Always "mo better." I don't know how you separate normal human wish fulfillment and the bias of ownership out of claims like that. But a simple mechanical test for volume increase over time could be done, and nobody ever does it. I'm not going to do it, because I'm not the one making the claims.

The one thing I think everyone here can agree on, was said earlier in the thread: Never buy an instrument with a mediocre tone, with the expectation that you'll like the tone much better after a few years of being played-in. Find an instrument that sounds good now, and anything that happens down the road is gravy.

[bratsche]

It depends on what you want to test for. Of the various descriptions people use for improvement after opening up or being played-in, some are subjective and difficult to test. Words like "warmth," "sweetness," "clarity" can be loosely correlated to different parts of the frequency range, but you'd need a bunch of people doing double blind listening tests to figure out if everyone means the same thing by "warmth."

However, there is one thing that can be tested scientifically and fairly easily, and that's increase in volume. It's the one consistent claim made by people when they talk about instruments opening up.

As for me, I never even thought about volume. I know that's a big deal to a lot of people (who jam with others and/or play in acoustic bands) but I only play by myself. I was thinking of the "pleasantness", or lack thereof, in the actual tone quality. A new or never-played instrument can sound tight and constricted in quality (I know those are subjective terms, too) but still have the same volume (or not noticeably different) than it has after the sound is has opened and is no longer tight and constricted and "new-sounding" :)

I guess you really do have to be there throughout the process to notice it. While I agree in principle about not buying a "mediocre" toned instrument expecting you will like it better in time, I wouldn't really advise one to let such attributes of "newness" dissuade one from an instrument, either, as those do go away with the playing. It's sort of like getting a new pair of leather shoes. They won't feel so great right away while you're walking in them, and they have to break in and mold themselves to your particular feet before they feel really nice. But you should be able to tell by how they feel when you try them on, standing still and wiggling your toes around, whether they'll be a good fit for you, or not.

bratsche

[Tobin]

My personal belief is that some small changes occur over time due to the structural/chemical changes in wood as it ages over a period of years (and for a brief time, more quickly after it's first built into an instrument). I'm much more skeptical about improvement due to vibration or player involvement.
I'd like to think so too, but I've heard plenty of stories of people purchasing old instruments (like the proverbial Loar that's been under someone's bed for the last 50 years) and still hearing it "open up" as they play it. So to me, that suggests there's more to it than simply age. Age will indeed change the tone, but it's not the entire equation.

I personally think that part of the physical "opening up" is just a long-term continuation of the mandolin getting "broken in". There's an initial phase where the vibration of playing will change the tone of a new mandolin, but it doesn't end after the first few weeks. The majority of breaking in happens then, but will continue for a long time as the parts (even down to the molecular level) seat themselves. And it's a function not only of vibration, but string tension on the instrument. The bridge, for example, will most definitely change shape under constant compression, and more firmly seat itself onto the sound board. Likewise, the sound board itself will change shape under constant pressure from the bridge (which is evidenced by the bulging you see on older instruments). The phenomenon of "opening up" is certainly related to these slow-motion changes in physical shape of the instrument, which are perhaps hastened by aggressive playing.

But yeah, I've never heard anyone say their instrument sounded worse the more they played it. So I think we can all agree that no matter what the cause, and no matter whether you believe in "opening up" or not, the best thing to do is PLAY THE FIRE OUT OF YOUR MANDOLIN!

[JeffD]

Point is, if a scientific study is even required, the effect must be pretty small. I'm interested in changes in my instrument that I can hear with my own actual ears - anything else will not benefit me at all.

Your not hearing confirms only that you haven't heard it, yet, or that the mandolins you have experience with haven't gone through the particular transition.

I don't mean you David, of course.

I mean that so many otherwise sane and sober people do claim to have heard it and experienced it that any particular individual's claims, for or against, have less to do with it. There is so much strong circumstantial evidence that the claim that nothing is going on besides a change in perception needs to be at least investigated.

Whether the research results will benefit you, or me, or anyone at all, well that's a second question. Certainly if one believes nothing is going on, then one believes there is no benefit in studying what that nothing is that is, or umm.. isn't going on.

This is harder to say than playing Devils Dream in E.

[OldSausage]

Your not hearing confirms only that you haven't heard it, yet, or that the mandolins you have experience with haven't gone through the particular transition.

I don't mean you David, of course.

I mean that so many otherwise sane and sober people do claim to have heard it and experienced it that any particular individual's claims, for or against, have less to do with it. There is so much strong circumstantial evidence that the claim that nothing is going on besides a change in perception needs to be at least investigated.

Whether the research results will benefit you, or me, or anyone at all, well that's a second question. Certainly if one believes nothing is going on, then one believes there is no benefit in studying what that nothing is that is, or umm.. isn't going on.

This is harder to say than playing Devils Dream in E.

No, my point is really that, while small changes may occur on some instruments, if it was a useful, repeatable, or interesting change, it would be extremely easy to experience and to demonstrate without needing an experimental rig and double blinds. The fact that it isn't tells me that, while it's entirely plausible that something is going on there, that something ain't much.

[wsugai]

Does a carbon fibre mando also "open up" ?

[greg_tsam]

Does a carbon fibre mando also "open up" ?


I believe it does..When you hit it with a 9# Hammer! :mandosmiley:

[stevedenver]

Do you know how ironic it is reading this thread, versus the blue chip thread?

[bratsche]

Do Blue Chip picks open up and break in?

I know carbon fiber cases open up, and close again, and open up again ... unless you've accidentally locked them, that is.

bratsche

[Russ Donahue]

Leave it under a steel pyramid for 3 days, and I guarantee it will sound better. If anyone's interested, I have a few steel pyramids left over from my old razor-blade sharpening days, only $39.99.




[Note: Joke. I do not really have these items available, and am not really asking for money].




Dang!

[OldSausage]

Do Blue Chip picks open up and break in?

I know carbon fiber cases open up, and close again, and open up again ... unless you've accidentally locked them, that is.

bratsche

My TAD 60 sounds much better now than when I first got it. Obviously I've upgraded the mandolin a few times, which has helped, but probably vibrations that have been stored in the pick are now releasing themselves into any mandolin I play.

[Dale Ludewig]

I have a customer who picked up an OM guitar I'd just built for him a couple weeks ago. He'd had it a couple of days and he called me up to tell me how much better it sounded than just even a few minutes before! I was curious. He said he'd just noticed something white inside the body. He proceeded to pull about 10-12 paper towels out of the body, ones I'd forgotten to take out. I stuffed them in there to keep lacquer from blowing in there while spraying. Oops.... I've never done that before. And that is scientifically verifiable!

[Rodney Riley]

Do Blue Chip picks open up and break in? :))

Remember one member that broke his Blue Chip "in", (or was it "in half"???) trying to put holes in it with a hammer and nail!!! So I guess they can "open up"!

[Ron McMillan]

My number one instrument sounds SO much better than it did when I first bought it, new, about 18 months ago. But since it's a carbon fibre Mix A4, that might be all about a different element in the equation. Can I claim that all the improvements are in the player? Heck, I can claim anything I want, since it's entirely subjective.

[almeriastrings]

I think it's also telling that every claim for changes over time is always in the direction of improvement. It never gets worse, or sounds just different in a neutral way. Always "mo better."

One exception I can think of. Some claim that Western Red cedar-topped guitars (not carved top mandolins) get "tired" over time and lose sparkle, becoming more "wooly" or "played out". I stress this is (to use that lawyer's favorite phrase) an "allegation"! It is quite a common belief, however, in acoustic guitar circles.

[Ben Cooper]

Does a carbon fibre mando also "open up" ?

lol

[ralph johansson]

There's a few theories as to whether or not it's the wood opening up, improved playing, or just becoming one with a particular instrument to the point that you can produce the best tone out of it...



--Tom

Improved response in an instrument is something you will note without playing it in earnest; just a few chords or a simple scale will usually give it away as stiff opr loose. Also, as long as you don't switch between entirely different types of instruments whatever adjustment takes place is almost immediate (if you're an experienced player).

[ralph johansson]

I record my mandolins with monotonous regularity, but without scientific precision or scrutiny. All I can say from doing this is that, if there is a change, it is not so big that you would notice over a period of a few years. With a brand new mandolin, with two recordings made after I first got it and a few weeks later, on a blind test I couldn't tell you which was which. On the other hand, your playing and the tone you as a player produce will likely improve dramatically over that time if you work at it diligently. And also, a mandolin sounds great with a polish and a nice new set of strings.

I'm well aware that psychologically it feels like big changes happen, but the recordings tell a different tale.

I don't think there's much you can tell from a recording. Have you ever listened to a recording and said to yourself, "my, what a responsive axe this cat is playing". You must play the thing to observe this. Increased responsivity contributes to the feel of the instrument, makes it more enjoyable to play, and possibly inspires greater ideas.

[ralph johansson]

Point is, if a scientific study is even required, the effect must be pretty small. I'm interested in changes in my instrument that I can hear with my own actual ears - anything else will not benefit me at all.

Doesn't the feel of the insturment mean anything to you?

[ralph johansson]

One exception I can think of. Some claim that Western Red cedar-topped guitars (not carved top mandolins) get "tired" over time and lose sparkle, becoming more "wooly" or "played out". I stress this is (to use that lawyer's favorite phrase) an "allegation"! It is quite a common belief, however, in acoustic guitar circles.

Another popular theory is that cedar-topped guitars don't change at all. Also, at least one prominent builder says "the jury is out on Engelmann". What I've detected in a few a my guitars (four of which have Sitka tops) is a looser, more ready, response over the years
in accordance with general physical principles. There's general agreement on this phenomenon in builder circles. However, if a guitar is very loose, bassy or darksounding, that same process may make it sound muddy over the years. This actually happened in one of my instruments and is the one thing to look out for when inspecting a new instrument. But I don't believe it's much of an issue in mandolins.

[Iron]

Look, here's an experiment everyone can do. I know most of you have dozens of mandolins, so it will be no problem. For those with only one, do it as a thought experiment. Take the mandolin you own that is the worst of the bunch. Think hard about how bad it is, and how, for the money you spent on it, it ought to be better. Think of all the things you dislike about its tone and construction. Strum it awkwardly, and hear how crappy it sounds. Sigh deeply.

Now lock it in a cupboard for a week. During that week, start to think about all the things you miss about that mandolin. If possible, watch videos of people who are better pickers than you playing a similar model. Contemplate how small improvements in your technique could have made a lot more of the good features of that mandolin. Maybe imagine that Adam Steffey has said he locks all his mandolins in a cupboard for a week, and it makes them awesome.

After 7 days, take it out of the cupboard. Polish it carefully so it shines, put on a new set of strings, and set the intonation just right. Now, clean up some of the mess in your room, sit down in your favourite picking chair and play three or four of your best tunes.

I guarantee you will be impressed with the results of this absolutely free treatment.

Now this is strange because I already done the exact thing you recommend but........on the 7th day when I opened that cupboard, there was that ole ugly weber staring at me I slammed the door shut and have'nt been near that cupboard since.

[Iron]

I just bought a new mandolin online and it came to me with perfect craftsman ship, beautiful instrument but sounded thuddy, after 2 days to get acclimated and on tonerite It is special .
Yes mandolins and guitars open up, some more and faster than others I believe the Martin Prewars prove that point very well.

[Michael Bridges]

In the interest of helping out a fellow Cafe member, I'll come remove that old,ugly Weber for ya, and even take it away so you won't be bothered by it anymore! Just the giving sorta guy I am.
Now this is strange because I already done the exact thing you recommend but........on the 7th day when I opened that cupboard, there was that ole ugly weber staring at me I slammed the door shut and have'nt been near that cupboard since.

[Iron]

You would'nt want this ole thing it's got a few holes in it and patched on not much finish, It was probably stolen from some deer hunter crossing into Mexico .
I happened to be at the Caddilac bar playing poker and was part of a bet I won, looks like it has seen many days playing in the bordellos and riding in the back of a pickup truck.

[Michael Bridges]

Hey, I had an ex-girlfriend who fit that description,too!

[sgrexa]

All I know is that I am 100% certain that I think my recent red spruce topped mandolins have opened up and sound noticeably better now than when they were new. I think.

Sean

[OldSausage]

I don't think there's much you can tell from a recording. Have you ever listened to a recording and said to yourself, "my, what a responsive axe this cat is playing". You must play the thing to observe this. Increased responsivity contributes to the feel of the instrument, makes it more enjoyable to play, and possibly inspires greater ideas.


Doesn't the feel of the insturment mean anything to you?

The feel sure does mean a lot to me. I completely get it, I know what you're talking about, and the feeling you get when you've had a new mandolin for a short while, and the thing starts to take off in your hands and lead you into seemingly completely new sonic pastures. But if there really HAS been a change, I think it's something you ought to be able to record. Either the tone has changed or the volume has increased. But then I record it, and the sound I hear back is strikingly similar to the sound from the same recording a few weeks back.

As a human being, your relationship with the instruments you play is highly complex, but the complex side of the relationship is you - a mandolin for all its glory and wonder is at heart a very simple device. You, on the other hand, are the most complex and unfathomable thing in the known universe.

[stevedenver]

Do Blue Chip picks open up and break in?

I know carbon fiber cases open up, and close again, and open up again ... unless you've accidentally locked them, that is.

bratsche

lol-but the point was the placebo and 'subjective' aspect,
and the testimonials about blue chips versus this thread and its scepticism

I presume you were kidding !!!

as for you ought to be able to record it-not so sure-

I think of a beautiful guitar or piano, and then even on a really superb stereo-it isn't live-it isn't the same sound-I think there are subtleties that may not be captured or reproduced

more to the point, as it is relative, even if it is captured, is only going to be apparent to the person who recall the closed instrument's sound, kinda like eating a a meal which has had the seasoning corrected before it was served to you. You wont know what it tasted like before the seasoning.

[FLATROCK HILL]

You, on the other hand, are the most complex and unfathomable thing in the known universe.

I do not believe that to be a true statement. Even without scientific testing, I am 100% sure that my wife is more unfathomabler.

[OldSausage]

Now this is strange because I already done the exact thing you recommend but........on the 7th day when I opened that cupboard, there was that ole ugly weber staring at me I slammed the door shut and have'nt been near that cupboard since.

I don't think you spent enough time on the "having positive thoughts about your instrument" part.

[OldSausage]

You, on the other hand, are the most complex and unfathomable thing in the known universe.


I do not believe that to be a true statement. Even without scientific testing, I am 100% sure that my wife is more unfathomabler.

I left my line like that precisely so that someone could make this joke. Thank you.

[Stephen Perry]

Point is, if a scientific study is even required, the effect must be pretty small. I'm interested in changes in my instrument that I can hear with my own actual ears - anything else will not benefit me at all.

Exactly my point. The effects are so obvious on good violins and are both accommodated for and expected. There's no need for rigorous science, any more than basic scientific research is needed on many other things. When a player (a good one) plucks a string on a fiddle and says "a little green" -- and it is -- that's an obvious effect that doesn't really need study!

[Stephen Perry]

As to carbon fiber - it might open up. I can really tell a carbon flyrod breaking in. That is pretty clear. Now, is it the rod blank or the windings on the guides? I've pondered this. Haven't had a second rod to play with to see whether the various patterns of tap response change.

But a rod actually bends a lot. Maybe carbon mandolins take hard playing for several hundred years to open up.

[oldwave]

Wood dries out, when a top vibrates it reacts and reinforces various waves according to its stiffness, thickness, and carving profiles. These "formats" very likely change the way the wood cells change while drying. In my opinion, this is why old instruments that have been played for a long time usually sound better than older instruments that just sat. I bought a 1924 f4 in 1977 that took years to really open up. Anecdotal I know, however my opinion was formed after a 25 year friendship with a master violin repairman from the old school who had his hands on thousands of violins and his observations.

[Toni Schula]

I believe, that this breaking in is a combination of
- real change in the wood due to vibrations
- improvement in technique, that is producing the best tone with this particular instrument
- getting used to hearing the sound of the particular instrument
- and yes, also placebo effect

I was told that I did a good job breaking in my mandolin, when it was new. Yet I still have the strong feeling that she has a very strong personality and is upset if I don't play her for some days. After playing for an hour or so, she forgives me and sounds superb again. Taking it serious this for sure is a combination of improved technique and getting used to the sound and maybe is a little bit influenced by temperature and humidity.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Here is an interesting article on this very subject: www.esomogyi.com/tonewoods.html

Thebguys from OregonWildwood say that you can effect the sound and timber of a solid topped guitar oover time by the amount of playing. Thy say it rearranges the sap within he wood overtime...also drying and exposure to temp and climate as well.

[Ben Cooper]

Wow, I guess I did open (or re-open) a Pandora's box of thought and opinion! Thanks to everyone who is posting. I am enjoying the discussion. I am also continuing to play my Fender in the hopes I will break it in or open it up. I like it, it sounds good for the price. I am slowly getting better to but I will keep listening for any differences. Can't wait till I get my Girouard so I can listen to it open up as well!

[Gottliver]

So just a thought. An instrument is built to resist the tension of the strings from ripping it apart. Yes? It is also designed to play easily and sound its best. Yes? So now the minute energy of the vibrating strings will re-arrange the fibres that give it this strength? From a physics standpoint this is a no no. There is study out there of renowned violinists playing a few well regarded violins, blindfolded, including a strad. They dont all choose the strad as the best. No one in the history of music can accurately remember what their instrument sounded like when it was new. Our perception is only perception. Does an instrument open up? Do you know what it sounded like last year when you bought it? 2 years ago? A decade ago? Have you ever heard it as its sound bloomed out to the listeners while you played it? Do you really know what it sounds like? Maybe Ive gone off topic but it is relevant. Cause none of us know what our instruments really sound like. Recordings don't count. Sorry for the rant.

[Ben Cooper]

So just a thought. An instrument is built to resist the tension of the strings from ripping it apart. Yes? It is also designed to play easily and sound its best. Yes? So now the minute energy of the vibrating strings will re-arrange the fibres that give it this strength? From a physics standpoint this is a no no. There is study out there of renowned violinists playing a few well regarded violins, blindfolded, including a strad. They dont all choose the strad as the best. No one in the history of music can accurately remember what their instrument sounded like when it was new. Our perception is only perception. Does an instrument open up? Do you know what it sounded like last year when you bought it? 2 years ago? A decade ago? Have you ever heard it as its sound bloomed out to the listeners while you played it? Do you really know what it sounds like? Maybe Ive gone off topic but it is relevant. Cause none of us know what our instruments really sound like. Recordings don't count. Sorry for the rant.

No need to be sorry. The "rant" is also good information! Thanks!

[fatt-dad]

I think whenever you make a change it takes a while to adjust/adapt. I think that getting-to-know period is often confused with "opening up."

I think about a lot of stuff. . .

f-d

[Stephen Perry]

If you want clear assessment of instruments, look to the workers who make them sound a specific way, over the players. I can certainly hear an instrument I've made change. It's not subtle. A soundpost loosening up makes an amazing difference - and people can hear that difference. A glue seam opening up a tiny bit changes the sound. Playing the thing like made changes the sound.

Either the top workers in the violin field are all hallucinating or there's an effect from playing in.

[Gottliver]

I would never dismiss the effect of an actual structural change to the sound of an instrument. Many swear that an instrument sounds its best on the verge of its collapse. I would say that we all fall in love with our favorites and the more we play them dare i say the better they sound.....to our minds ears.....of course, all the disclaimers IMHO, YMMV yadda yadda....

[Bertram Henze]

There are two alleged effects to be distinguished:
- breaking in (aka opening up) as a longterm change over weeks, months, years
- waking up as a shortterm effect to happen every day upon beginning of practise

I can't either confirm or deny either of those, but I'll say they are buried under lots of other, bigger effects connected with the player. I have some anectdotal experience with the latter of the two:

- in winter, the waking up is cut short since I use a case humidifier, so i think it originally had to do with my hot steaming hands humidifying the top while playing.

- sometimes, the waking up is cut short when I do stretching exercises before practising or if I slightly turn my hand to make a steeper picking angle (I like to hack into the strings like a bird does with his beak). Therefore, it seems my muscles are waking up, too.

- sometimes, the waking up never happens when I have a cold and my Eustachian tubes are shut.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Well Like I've continued to rehash over and over again....guess I'm just a believer...I dunno:

On all the mandolins I've owned, that were solid, hand carved/Graduated and built with quality materials and woods, I've heard and attested to this being a phenomenon that actually happens. Do I know how, or "why" it happens...no...and frankly I don't care. My ears tell me I'm hearing the changes and that's good enough for me. I know I've got good ears.....that's why they are so big and ugly...
My Flatiron Fest "F" (sniff sniff) was my first really well made mandolin that wasn't a piece of laminated junk ( like my first mandolin ) I bought it from Mass Street Music...I can still remember the smell when I opened the case....it had a terribly funky miss-matched not bookmatched Maple back with some interesting birds-eye character to it....anyways I'm digressing, back to my point.
I was dissapointed with the volume and sound of the mandolin when I first got it. I thought it was gonna sound better for a Nashville Flat Fest "F" and kinda thought I had duped myself. The tone sounded tight thin and very dry, volume wasn't good at all...actually...it sucked, and a few folks even told me. When I hit some chop chords or played some chords on it, it sounded tinny, very little sustain and the chop chord just kinda sounded flat with no depth. I played the crap out of it literally....I must have broken 10,000 dollars of strings on it at bluegrass jams, parking lot pickins, festivals etc...never had it set-up either. After a year or so that mandolin had really begun to change....for a while it actually seemed to get worse ( maybe changes in climate affect that....who knows ) but the chop really began to kinda get a more "hollow woody" sound to it. It sounded much louder and much more forceful. The highs had a much more bell like tone and I noticed an increase in sustain and volume, I could hear it better and didn't feel as I had to play it so dern hard. Of course I had improved as a player...I practiced alot, all the time, but these were acoustic differences in the instrument itself. I could even hear them when others played my mandolin, even beginners. Other pickers too began to comment about ti as well and even noticed it, one of them was a mandolin builder himself. Anyways what a pity, I got MAS and sold it....now I regret it. Still dream about getting my hands on her again....someday...it's a sentimental thang I guess....( sniff sniff ) it was my first really good mandolin.

[Fretbear]

It is not even a question to folks with a lot of acoustic stringed instrument experience.
My RK ROS-06 000 guitar is just coming on to 8 months old, and after arriving at the proper string gauges and tuning (heavy strings tuned down a whole step) and after a good thrashing session last night, the sound (as if all of a sudden) became warmer and more refined, more complex and sweet.
To believe that the careful joining together and vibrating (under extreme pressure) of different types of resonant woods released from live trees would be a static and unchanging process is simply unrealistic.
It is this phenomenon (amongst others) that makes me love acoustic instruments so much.

[Ken Olmstead]

I love this discussion and I’m glad it is still going!!

I firmly believe instruments mature and change their sound over time or “open up.” I have “broken in” several mandolins and am working on another new one now. However, I don’t know exactly why this happens and I personally think it is a culmination of many variables and not any one thing that you can point to.

I personally believe a lot happens in the first few months of owning a new mandolin. First, I think as a player, I begin to find the sweet spots, adjust my technique to get the “chop” out of it (sorry, chop isn’t all on the mandolin’s construction. There is technique to be developed and you have to make small adjustments for each mandolin that you switch too.) Secondly, I am constantly making small mechanical adjustments: getting the action right, finding the strings I like the best, pick size shape and material and so on.

Now aside from that, I believe that the mandolin responds to sympathetic vibrations and slowly loses its fight to try and stay a tree and accepts its new role in life as a mandolin. I really do think it “breaks in” and sounds fuller and richer in its first year.

So while it is not good to buy a mandolin based on miracles that time will make your new Rover into a Banjo killer, your mandolin will sound quite a bit fuller and richer in 6 months of playing IMO.

One respected Northwest builder once told me that treble does not really develop so much over time but that bass does. From my personal experience, I agree with this opinion. This was enlightening! When shopping for a mando, if the treble is not bold enough or sweet enough, then don’t count on that changing for the better much and any change that happens there will take many years!

The bass frequencies are another story. Bass is not often pleasing on most mandolins when new and cold, to me. They can be built to have “woof” just fall out of them and that is lots of fun, however, they often mature to the darker side of things as time goes on. Engelmann spruce and cedar tops seem to produce a great sound right from the beginning, but then seem to get darker and “muddier” as compared to their Red or Sitka spruce counter parts. My opinion of course but I have found it to be true in mandolins and guitars.

Now over the long haul, if played, instruments continue to develop and change. My father-in-law’s Eastman for instance. After 5 years and a gazillion hours of playing, that mandolin sounds fantastic!! I remember it when it was new…yawn! I was really impressed with the developments in its sound!

I guess in summary, bass increases. Treble, not so much. After experiencing a few mandolins and how they break in and develop in the first year will help you decide if the mandolin will be decent when auditioning it new. My current Kentucky sounded like it was constructed out of a frying pan when I first picked it up. In just days and some adjustments it is sounding really quite good! But I could hear something in it that I recognized and I could evaluate the mechanical condition. It allowed me to get a good deal on it!

However, if you are not experienced with what mechanical adjustments can do, along with environmental conditions and early break in developments; then be sure to purchase from a dealer who has properly set up the instrument and you are generally pleased with its sound. While miracles do happen, I would not bank on it! 

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I love this discussion and I’m glad it is still going!!

It's kinda like left-overs....just keeps getting better and better.....even if I've already said the same thing 3 times now in the thread LOL

[Petrus]

This is a long quotation from a book I'm reading right now, Stradivari's Genius by Toby Faber. Here he discusses one of several theories attempting to explain the superior tone of the Strad violins. (Stradivari also made mandolins, though only two survive; one of them is at the National Music Museum in South Dakota.)


Quite by chance they [the luthiers of Cremona: Stradivari, Guarneri, Amati] were using wood that had first been soaked in water. The logs on sale in Cremona had been felled in the Alps and then floated down to market on the River Po. Later, 19th century luthiers lost this benefit because of Napoleon: he built roads that bypassed the river. Use wood that had been soaked in water and your violins would soon have a tone like Stradivari's.

Now, what I don't understand here -- which touches on the breaking in/opening up angle -- is wouldn't the eventual drying of the wood cause this benefit to be gradually lost, resulting in the reverse effect?

[Stephen Perry]

With respect to soaking in water, it isn't the continuing presence of water that is considered important by some, but the effect of that water and micro-organisms that are thereby allowed to grow within the wood.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

This is a long quotation from a book I'm reading right now, Stradivari's Genius by Toby Faber. Here he discusses one of several theories attempting to explain the superior tone of the Strad violins. (Stradivari also made mandolins, though only two survive; one of them is at the National Music Museum in South Dakota.)



Now, what I don't understand here -- which touches on the breaking in/opening up angle -- is wouldn't the eventual drying of the wood cause this benefit to be gradually lost, resulting in the reverse effect?

Interesting...soaking the tops in water.....is this before or after it's carved?

[lorrainehornig]

The question is... are you breaking in the mandolin, or is the mandolin breaking in you?
I've always wondered about this as well. The sweetest my mandolin ever sounded was the first time I played it after being away on vacation for 2 weeks. I realized that on a day-to-day basis I experienced a kind of sensory adaptation and very much took the sound of my mandolin for granted. Two weeks away from it and I truly heard it once again. It was a cool experience.

[Bertram Henze]

I realized that on a day-to-day basis I experienced a kind of sensory adaptation and very much took the sound of my mandolin for granted. Two weeks away from it and I truly heard it once again.

This should be comforting to all performers: your instrument will always sound better to the audience than to you.

[Nick Triesch]

I have an expensive F type mando I bought 11 years ago new and it sounds exactly the same. However, I have a 23 snakehead that sounds fantastic but I was not around to hear it new. Probably some folks on this site were around and could tell us how they sounded new.

[BlueMt.]

I have an expensive F type mando I bought 11 years ago new and it sounds exactly the same. However, I have a 23 snakehead that sounds fantastic but I was not around to hear it new. Probably some folks on this site were around and could tell us how they sounded new.

Nick, I played that 23 snakehead when it was new and it was a dog. Gotta' go, Old Sausage is standing on my oxygen tube.

[Nick Triesch]

I love it BlueMT. Finally a sense of humor! But then again, maybe you did plat it!

[DHopkins]

A couple of years ago, I was talking with Emory Gordy. He said he would break in a guitar by placing it in front of a fairly loud speaker for, I think, 20 hours. This was the only way to properly get the instrument ready to play.

(If you don't know who Emory is, go pick up an album by Elvis, Emmylou in her early years, Bellamy Bros, Vince Gill, Earl Thomas Conley, Billy Joel, John Denver and scores more. There's a good chance he was a musician and/or producer on the album. Arguably one of the least recognized names by the public but one of the most respected by the industry so it may be a credible, if not unusual, method.)

[OldSausage]

--

[roysboy]

Not sure this would be considered 'scientific' , but I've been curious about this 'opening up' for several years. I swore that my Eastman MD 305 opened up over the year I owned it ...it took on a warmer , rounder tone than when I initially purchased it . Or so it seemed to me. When I bought my Kentucky KM-150 about 6 months ago , it sounded damn good and much better than I thought it should for the price and , as I've stated here on the forums a time or two , much better than the more expensive Kentuckys , Eastmans, Gold Tones and ALL the Epiphones I'd tried . I'd even played a Larrivee at a local jam and although it sounded great ...it seemed thin and didn't project well . However, curious about this 'opening up' effect , having experienced it with my Eastman , I recorded the KM-150 shortly thereafter on an acoustic demo song I was pitching . Just after Christmas , I listened to the demo and laid down a comparison mandolin track with the same parts ...same string gauge...same mic ...same room ...same audio interface and same Km-150 mandolin with the same set-up . DIFFERENT tone . Yup ...the little Kentucky mando had gotten deeper, warmer and fatter sounding in the six months I'd been playing it daily either jamming or practicing or recording . I was blown away by it when I first bought it ....but the way its sound is improving is a bonus I hadn't really counted on .In any case , I was convinced then and there that these things DO open up and I had recorded sound as proof .

[dang]

Here is an interesting article on this very subject: www.esomogyi.com/tonewoods.html

Thebguys from OregonWildwood say that you can effect the sound and timber of a solid topped guitar oover time by the amount of playing. Thy say it rearranges the sap within he wood overtime...also drying and exposure to temp and climate as well.

I have a MS in Plant Biochemistry, and this topic often comes up but I stay away from scientific explanations.

In the Ervin Somogyi link you supplied above he is appropriately vague in saying "In the guitar, also, different woods take different amounts of time for getting "played in". Why this is so is not fully known but, obviously, it has to do with changes in the cellular and fibrous structures of the woods over time."

Not sure I buy the "Thy say it rearranges the sap within he wood overtime" argument. But drying and exposure to temperature and climate could certainly be involved.

Scientific Mumbojumbo:
Wood is primarily cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin (they total about 98% of what wood is). Cellulose tends to form crystalline structures that are highly polymerized (and very resistant to water and chemicals), but can present in many partially crystalline fibers and other structures. Hemicellulose has many less cross links (less polymerized), are generally less structured and are found at a higher percentage of total mass in soft woods. Both cellulose and hemicellulose interact (covalently cross link) with Lignin and it is this interaction which determines the majority of the physical properties of wood.

Since the cellulose is sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity (not much humidity effect on lignin) then these effects can be seen in each of the cellulose structures at different amounts: crystalline (a little), semi-crystalline (more) and amorphous (much more). It is not too much of a stretch to therefore say that the level of humidity in the wood and the temperature of that wood can effect the way these macromolecular structures interact and therefore the physical properties of the wood.

You could therefore make an argument that if you take an instrument out of it's case and play it, while it warms up to room temperature (or even warmer against your body) there IS a change in the physical properties of the wood which leads to acoustic changes. --This is my best attempt to account for an instrument "waking up" (in Bertram's terms (see post 78)).

If you want to stretch this explanation a bit and try to explain "opening up" the best I can suggest is that more time in the "woken up" state results in a long term "opening up" due to a rearrangement of the fibrous strands, rearrangement of the crystalline and semi-crystalline sub structures, and a long term adaption to the physical strains on the wood due to the string tension and vibrations...

Or it is just your ears adapting :whistling:

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

A couple of years ago, I was talking with Emory Gordy. He said he would break in a guitar by placing it in front of a fairly loud speaker for, I think, 20 hours. This was the only way to properly get the instrument ready to play.

(If you don't know who Emory is, go pick up an album by Elvis, Emmylou in her early years, Bellamy Bros, Vince Gill, Earl Thomas Conley, Billy Joel, John Denver and scores more. There's a good chance he was a musician and/or producer on the album. Arguably one of the least recognized names by the public but one of the most respected by the industry so it may be a credible, if not unusual, method.)

I know several people who have done this with their mandolins in the past and all reported very positive results over a period of time

[Astro]

I know several people who have done this with their mandolins in the past and all reported very positive results over a period of time

And if you use Mozart, your mandolin will get smarter too :)

I feel like most. There is probably a little something to it (top dries out and vibrates more or something). But its probably not an instrument changing experience.

To achieve that, I think the instrument really has to want to change.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I feel like most. There is probably a little something to it (top dries out and vibrates more or something). But its probably not an instrument changing experience.

Well it would be interesting to take a poll....from my experience, most mandolin players I've ever known, especially ones that have played professionally or semi-professionally believe it to be an actual phenomenon....be interesting to see some hard numbers....is there a way to launch a poll where veryone can vote and then publish the results?

[OldSausage]

Not sure this would be considered 'scientific' , but I've been curious about this 'opening up' for several years. I swore that my Eastman MD 305 opened up over the year I owned it ...it took on a warmer , rounder tone than when I initially purchased it . Or so it seemed to me. When I bought my Kentucky KM-150 about 6 months ago , it sounded damn good and much better than I thought it should for the price and , as I've stated here on the forums a time or two , much better than the more expensive Kentuckys , Eastmans, Gold Tones and ALL the Epiphones I'd tried . I'd even played a Larrivee at a local jam and although it sounded great ...it seemed thin and didn't project well . However, curious about this 'opening up' effect , having experienced it with my Eastman , I recorded the KM-150 shortly thereafter on an acoustic demo song I was pitching . Just after Christmas , I listened to the demo and laid down a comparison mandolin track with the same parts ...same string gauge...same mic ...same room ...same audio interface and same Km-150 mandolin with the same set-up . DIFFERENT tone . Yup ...the little Kentucky mando had gotten deeper, warmer and fatter sounding in the six months I'd been playing it daily either jamming or practicing or recording . I was blown away by it when I first bought it ....but the way its sound is improving is a bonus I hadn't really counted on .In any case , I was convinced then and there that these things DO open up and I had recorded sound as proof .

Would it be possible to post this proof?

[William Smith]

To make my mandolins sound better I just throw em in the oven for some slow cookin. Sometimes the finish gets gooey. I usually bake with cookies so I can snack while my horn cures!

[JeffD]

due to a rearrangement of the fibrous strands, rearrangement of the crystalline and semi-crystalline sub structures, and a long term adaption to the physical strains on the wood due to the string tension and vibrations...


This is how it was explained to me. Further, if you don't play the instrument for years and years, the wood similarly adapts to that - explaining why after 40 years lying in a case with loose or missing strings, a mandolin may not sound great right away.

[Cheryl Watson]

How's your buddy, Frank Wakefield doin'? :grin:


To make my mandolins sound better I just throw em in the oven for some slow cookin. Sometimes the finish gets gooey. I usually bake with cookies so I can snack while my horn cures!

[Cheryl Watson]

I know that a lot of mandolin builders tend to build a bit on the bright side and with more midrange based on the theory that the instrument will get stronger in the lower registers as it breaks in and might get too mushy/bassy sounding many years down the road. An actual luthier could word that more correctly.

Another way I heard it said was that you build an instrument to break in; if you build it to sound too open from the get-go, it will not be as good years later. So good out of the box with the potential to be GREAT, is the best way to build, this one luthier once told me.

[Stephen Cagle]

I too have wondered about instruments opening up. Since about 83' when I started mandolin I've owned maybe 12 to 14 mando's and some were already aged 4 to 5 years up to 30 years. Some new (built custom for me). I've just always thought that the older the instrument more broken in it was. Common since thinking I guess. Now with that said I have played new mandolins that sounded 30 years old right out of the box. I guess my theory is incorrect. Regarding Emory Gordy Jr in a previous post I have been privileged to have played some shows with him and Patty over the years and we have discussed this very issue before. I do set my mandolin in front of speakers and sometimes all day if possible. Working at banjo.com we listen to grass all day long and so my mandolin comes out the case and is put on our packaging table where music is played in to it for hours sometimes. I can certainly tell a difference when the top has vibrated for long periods of time. Also Wayne Benson (IIIrd tyme out) would set his mandolins in front of speakers to achieve that opened up tone as well. My current mandolin is only 5 mths old and someone had mentioned in a previous post that when playing the mandolin and giving it time to warm up to room temp or your body temp it would make a difference. I certainly have experienced that with this mandolin. After about 30 mins of playing it's not the same mandolin. It sounds much, much fuller and not near as tight.

[jasona]

When I got my mandolin there were two points, one about a few weeks in and the other around 6 months in, when the tone really opened and responsiveness jumped noticeably. It was as if someone removed a sock from the sound box. Now, 10 years later, it just takes a few minutes for it and I to warm up to sound at its best, although I still notice the responsiveness increasing after a night at a jam. A couple of hours chopping really does wonders for any instrument!

No I have no recorded proof, but I will be getting my recording system set up soon so hopefully we will be able to compare our Ratcliff As Dave ;)

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

yeah as I mentioned in the past....the most change I noticed was an increase in the volume and also the mids and lows of most of my mandolins. It usually, from my personal experience, takes at least 6 months to a year before you really begin to notice it. Actually my old Flatiron started sounding worse for a while...it got to a point to where it was so thin and dry sounding, no volume I almost didn't even wanna play it...but some old veteran mandolin players told me to just keep playing it that it would eventually begin to come in and they were right....but it took a good year or so of some pretty hard playing.
My new Blevins mandolin is still a bit tight sounding as I've only had it playing it about a month now or so but I'm already beginning to hear some changes with it...especially in the mids, and I can also hear a hint of some slight deepening of the lows as well.... it's in there I can tell it's slowly developing...just have to keep playing it, enjoying it and being patient. It will be interesting in the end to see how much it develops and opens up....some mandolins seem to open more than others and quicker while others longer...I dunno why. My mandolin is an Adirondack Red Spruce top so I hear they sometimes take the longest of most of the Spruces but who's to say it's only the top? Maybe ( probably ) it's a combination of the whole instrument vibrating and coming together.....I dunno...

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

I know that a lot of mandolin builders tend to build a bit on the bright side and with more midrange based on the theory that the instrument will get stronger in the lower registers as it breaks in and might get too mushy/bassy sounding many years down the road. An actual luthier could word that more correctly.

Another way I heard it said was that you build an instrument to break in; if you build it to sound too open from the get-go, it will not be as good years later. So good out of the box with the potential to be GREAT, is the best way to build, this one luthier once told me.

That's interesting what Cheryl said: Alot of mandolins it's true if they are super heavy on the chop or bassy they often sound muddy and have weak highs and mids and don't cut as well. It's better to have a most balanced mandolin as possible but with a nice "whomp" to the chop when you play it. However if the chop is completely dead, thin and lifeless sounding...it's a bummer.

[mandroid]

Opening Up . knock, use the door ..

breaking in? you lost your key or its not your place?

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

My Blevins mandolin is really coming along as well. I have heard some very subtle changes in the highs and mids, but not so much the lows yet, but a little. It seems that it has developed a bit more sustain the more I play it and not so much decay as when I first got it.
I've only been playing it really hard now for about a month and a half.

[Astro]

Eric, I like that you shared a nice video recording of your new mando when you first got it.

It will be fun for us all to have another listen in a few months to compare.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Eric, I like that you shared a nice video recording of your new mando when you first got it.

It will be fun for us all to have another listen in a few months to compare.

Absolutely! I'm not sure how much you'll be able to notice...as I'm using just the Ipad to record with right now, but I plan on keeping almost like a You-Tube video diary of my learning as I tackle a new tune and I'll be posting them here as well. I am already, as I mentioned, hearing very subtle changes...mainly almost like a "deepening" in the mids and highs ( for lack of a better word ) and definately an increase in sustain. The chop is coming along a little better, but I suspect that will be the last part that begins to open up or round out. It seems with most of my mandolins that was the case, not that it doesn't already have decent chop, but I still think it's going to improve a bit. I think if I was playing in a group or going to jams every week ( like I used to ) it would probably open up a little quicker, but patience is a virtue. I think this mandolin is going to have some woody mids...I really feel I'm hearing the mids develop more than anything. Some mandolins I think have to much bass, or a heavy chop, but lack in the mids and highs. It seems no matter the mandolin, if it has strong points, it also has weak points, it seems to me at least. So I try to know my mandolin and work with it as best I can and find the sweet spots and try to get the best out of it I can.

I don't know how much ultimately it will open up. My Summitt F-100 that was "X" braced...it seemed to open up the least of all the mandolins I've owned so far and it took quite a while. I think it had a Sitka top. Anyways my Blevins mandolin has an "Adirondack Red Spruce top" and one of the things I like about it is that it is really responsive to your picking. If you bear down and pick a brisk tremolo on it, it really responds but if you wanna pick mellow, it can sweeten out too....I like that about this mandolin.