Just got offered a regular gig... what's my time worth? [Archive]

Clockwork John

Jun-19-2013, 2:01am

A friend of mine is taking over management of the "kid friendly" activity center/party space where I played a while back, and she asked me if I'd be interested in playing there twice a week. Now, I like the idea, I like the place, I like helping my friends, and I could use the extra practice...

But if I'm doing it regularly, as opposed to every once in a while, then it kinda becomes something like a job, right? And if me playing music for the kids brings people in and brings in money for the business, then it only seems fair that I'd see a little bit of that sentvmy way, right? This place charges per kid for activities/events and events, and a flat rate for parties.

So, anyway, how much should I ask to get paid for playing twice a week, probably a half hour set (I can't imagine kids staying focused for much longer than that), for a bunch of kids and their parents?

roysboy

Jun-19-2013, 3:03am

If you are making yourself available ongoing then it's a job . Your night is gone whether you entertain for one hour or the usual four or five . It takes the same time to drive there and set up gear and costs the same for gas either way. I entertain professionally and wouldn't leave the house for less than 150.00.....closer to 3 or 400 for full night

Steve L

Jun-19-2013, 3:03am

I really can't answer your question or fault your logic, but don't be surprised if the offer evaporates as soon as you ask for money.

mrmando

Jun-19-2013, 3:05am

Make like Brer Rabbit and earn a dollar a minute. It may sound like a lot, but it's 40% of the union rate...

SincereCorgi

Jun-19-2013, 3:39am

Make like Brer Rabbit and earn a dollar a minute. It may sound like a lot, but it's 40% of the union rate...

Sounds reasonable to me, just hair less than if you were giving private lessons for that amount of time around here.

journeybear

Jun-19-2013, 3:41am

The going rate here is $100 per person per four hour shift, or $25/hr. And it's been that for 25 years, so it should be higher. That $150/hr union scale sounds pretty sweet to me, but unlikely to be realized. roysboy has a point regarding time to drive both ways, set up and tear down, and load and unload the vehicle. Mgmt always looks at just the time spent during the actual performance, but there's more to it than that. Also, when kids are involved, somehow these people act as if you should be practically donating your time. "It's for the kids, man!" Well, perhaps you have kids of your own, whom you need to consider. ;) Also, kids can be a tougher audience than grownups. Though of course the worst are grownups who act like kids. ;)

Whatever rate you decide, expect some resistance, but be willing to negotiate. Be ready to rattle off some numbers to show how you arrived at your figure, and include drive time and setup/teardown. The people in charge will not have taken that into account, I can about guarantee it. But perhaps they will be enlightened in the process. Who knows? It could work out for you. Good luck!

Cheryl Watson

Jun-19-2013, 4:27am

I won't set up a sound system (small for a solo) and play locally for less than $100 and no more than 3 hours and that is cheap. This means that I do not get many gigs though. Most people think musicians play for free or should play and play four sets for about $50 and tips in these parts and, of course, that is ludicrous.

If you have a very short drive (in town) and do not need to bring a sound system maybe $50 and free food and drink? It's not like it is a four set gig, so don't be surprised if they expect you to play for free and then it is up to you to say yay or nay.

dusty miller

Jun-19-2013, 5:31am

[QUOTE=journeybear;1175240]"It's for the kids, man!"

Now Thats funny!........Sorry to jump in on your serious question

Charlieshafer

Jun-19-2013, 5:39am

Hopefully they have their own PA system, as it is a "party center." Sort of like a Chuck E Cheeze, but independent? To compare something like this to a true performance venue is not going to work. You're there entertaining, but you might as well be a high school kid with a giant fiberglass head. You're just a part of the overall scene. If you can get the 30 bucks a half-hour, I'd think that was doing well for those sorts of places. This isn't a gig where you're holding up your art for the world so they can admire and speak in hushed tones about you. It's just a fun little thing that needs to be enjoyable for the dollar amount you'll maybe get paid. If you want to gig, keep it affordable, and make sure you're friend knows there's no regular schedule for this amount of pay, just when you can make it, or feel like making it. (Don't say that last part, just use the generic, "I will have to take other higher-paying music-specific venue gigs when they come up, though...")

Gelsenbury

Jun-19-2013, 8:16am

Since the owner of the venue is a friend, I think you probably need a discussion with her about where this falls on the continuum between getting hired for a regular gig and doing a friend a favour. Since she is a friend, you probably want to charge her less than you would charge other people. So it's not really a question of how much your time is worth. You need an arrangement that covers your expenses, works for her centre, preserves your friendship, and leaves you free to respond to less regular but more lucrative offers if and when they come along.

Randi Gormley

Jun-19-2013, 9:02am

What Gelsenbury said. Also, friend or no, is she aware you are planning to charge? Is it in her budget? What does her budget allow her for live music? Does she expect to have other acts and what is she planning to pay them? It's not fair to blindside her about paying if she hasn't thought past doing you a favor, so if you haven't told her you're considering pay rates, you'd best do that sooner rather than later.

I will put in a word for caution, though. Sort of like never doing business with relatives. She's being great to offer you a regular gig and you're, of course, appreciative. But it's still a business arrangement and you need a contract that spells out all sorts of stuff like reimbursement and cancelations: are you paid per diem? what about insurance in case some kid bangs your mandolin and damages it, or trips over it and sues for emotional distress? What if she moves on to another job, do you lose the gig? The best friendships can founder on expectations and assumptions. Put it to her as your being the professional she wants if she says that a handshake is just fine ... at some point it won't be. Her boss may have other thoughts that will mess up the arrangement if it's not in writing. Just a couple of cautionary points.

mtucker

Jun-19-2013, 9:27am

Let her try it on....Tell her you'll do it for free a couple of times, and see if it works, then you'll talk turkey with her... if she likes it, let her tell you what she thinks she can afford and willing to pay. Then it's up to you, live with it or not - - you're putting your friendship at lower risk that way.

terzinator

Jun-19-2013, 9:35am

Let her try it on....Tell her you'll do it for free a couple of times, and see if it works. If she's happy and satisfied, then talk turkey ... let her tell you what she thinks she can afford or would like to pay then you make the decision and live with it or not - - you're putting your friendship at lower risk, if it's not meant to be.
For this particular situation, I think this is a great solution. (I'd mention your going rate at the outset, if you can. Just so it's all on the table going in.)

Jim Garber

Jun-19-2013, 10:17am

A friend of mine is taking over management of the "kid friendly" activity center/party space where I played a while back, and she asked me if I'd be interested in playing there twice a week.

The friend is not an owner, she has been hired as manager. And the OP has played their some time ago, I assume, for free. This sounds like a new negotiation time. be reasonable and factor in all those things as mentioned above, but, above all, do not under price yourself or, even worse, play for free. People who play for free get stepped on. Work out a deal that is acceptable for you, that you would not resent. You are an entertainer. Tho this may initially seem like a fun time to practice, you have to deal with kids and this can, at times, get old after the third or fiftieth time.

I would also work it out maybe as a start. Take a lower fee if you really want it but say you will do it for a month or so and see how the reaction it with the crowds. Ask parents of the kids to recommend you to the management (if possible). The re-negotiate after the trial period. Just my 2 cents.

foldedpath

Jun-19-2013, 10:18am

I don't have a fee to recommend because it depends on too many local factors, like the financial health of the business, the strength of the friendship with this person, and so on. But here are some thoughts in general:

First, remember that even for a small gig like this, you don't do the other musicians in your area any favors by setting the price too low. Pricing tends to stick. If you quote $30 for the gig, that's going to be the price they'll offer anyone else for years, after you move on. So be careful about undercutting opportunities for other musicians in the area. If you don't already have a feel for what other venues are paying, like restaurant "potted plant" gigs, it might be a good idea to do a little research before quoting a price.

Second, you didn't mention if you're providing sound reinforcement; anything from a little acoustic amp, to a full PA. If you're setting up even a small PA, you're going to be working longer than just showing up and playing acoustically. You should also consider the cost of maintaining and replacing cables and other PA gear, because if you do this enough, you will eventually be repairing and replacing gear. Especially with kids running around.

Third, and speaking of kids running around... I wouldn't personally do this kind of gig without having a talk with the venue owner about their liability insurance coverage. I would assume this type of business has coverage and all the appropriate local licensing. But make sure their policy covers you as a subcontractor. All it takes is one kid to trip on a mic cable, and you could be in big trouble otherwise.

Willie Poole

Jun-19-2013, 10:51am

This is a hard question to answer and I think if the OP looks at all of the suggestions above he/she will get along just fine...I think Jim hit the nail on the head....I have played some gigs for a small fee with the understanding that if we went over real good and drew a nice crowd that more pay would be expected and I have also been undercut after building a crowd at a place that just started music so be aware of things that may happen even if it is for a friend....I got a call once that a place didn`t want to have my band play any more and they were giving up music and then I found that some good friends undercut my price and played at the place for quite some time. I guess management wants to make as much profit as they can so cutting corners by paying a band less money is one way to do it....Whatever you do make sure it makes you happy and you are satisfied with the arrangement....

Willie

Timbofood

Jun-19-2013, 12:03pm

Really , I think only YOU can determine what your time is worth, chat with the friend about it. If you look at it as paid practice that's one thing, if you are looking at it as a "gig" then you calculate in the practice time as well as travel, cost of strings all that stuff. My band has been gigging for many years private parties tend to pay best for us, corporate ones best of all. Little venue gigs....well, it good that most of the time we are happy to make music together, it's not the money there.
Not much help I suppose but, another perspective.

shortymack

Jun-19-2013, 12:39pm

Whats your time worth? It also depends on the venue and/or how good you are/experience/following. Ricky Skaggs or Homeless Joe isnt really going to matter at Jumbo's Clown Room. Flip that around to the Opry House and its going to be a huge difference.

Steve Lavelle

Jun-19-2013, 12:54pm

I wonder if that SCOTUS decision yesterday on compensating unpaid interns can be applied to musician's? ;)

If there is no PA involved, I would say charge in the $25 to $40 per appearance. You did seem to indicate that you were going to use this gig as "extra practice", which if you meant it, says to me you should charge less, not more. hopefully there isn't much travel involved.

Clockwork John

Jun-19-2013, 1:08pm

Thanks all. You certainly have given me a lot to mull over.

Here's a little more info on the situation- the business has been struggling since it opened. They have been breaking even most months, but not doing much better than that. It has been for sale for several months. My friend and a friend of hers are taking over the business. Whether that means just the day to day operations, or if they are buying it, I don't know, and I don't know that I need to know.
As far as risking the friendship, not much to worry about there. She is the ex-girlfriend of one of my brother's former band mates. We're really not very close. We are both parents, and most of our interaction is over kid and parenting stuff.
I played an event there a while back as a favor to my friend, who put on the event as a final project for college. Apparently she was impressed enough that she wants to bring me on board as she's taking over this business. I definitely intend to approach this as a "hired gun"/independent contractor-type situation, with an agreement that says I will play from X to X on X days of the week, for $X, with the flexibility for the frequency or duration to be modified if either/both parties feel it would be necessary or beneficial. She wants to take it a month at a time, which works for me, for now at least.

Pete Jenner

Jun-19-2013, 1:12pm

You should charge a minimum 4 hour call or possibly 3 but no less. Most musicians I know wouldn't get out of bed for under $140. Call the musos union if you guys have one.

DataNick

Jun-19-2013, 1:17pm

dusty miller

Jun-19-2013, 1:17pm

Clockwork John, I agree with skunkwood, if it's two nights a week the it's definitely a gig and you should be paid something for your time and effort, friend or not. At LEAST $25 , $40. Travel, Pa, and your time two nights a week should all be taken into consideration. Obviously ignore my other post it was early in the morning and struck me funny for some reason...~o)...Kris

Clockwork John

Jun-19-2013, 1:28pm

Oh, and my "extra practice" comment meant that this will motivate me to practice, not BE pracice. The material I would be doing for the kids is completely different than the stuff I do for a "more mature" audience(I play Celtic folk/punk when I can).

Pete Jenner

Jun-19-2013, 1:35pm

... I do for a "more mature" audience(I play Celtic folk/punk when I can).

Oh how mature.:)

Clockwork John

Jun-19-2013, 2:33pm

Oh how mature.:)

Well, the audience isn't in diapers... ;-)

Cheryl Watson

Jun-19-2013, 2:39pm

Concerning music union pay, If I only worked for union wages, I would not work at all. No one 'round these parts gets union pay, and they never have. That would be awesome though.

Yes, a sound system and gas money is a huge concern and a favor for a friend is not "a regular" gig. That's too many favors for free so I would not think that your friend would ask you to play for free, she might, but that is expecting too much. And some friends will take advantage of you even if they don't really mean to.

A 30 minute gig still requires as much drive time and setup/break down time as a four hour gig, and it cuts out other gigs, so the pay should be at least fair and reasonable, IMHO. If this is going to be a gig on a regular basis then all you need to ask her is what she is thinking the budget will be for your entertainment. And then let her talk (or look at you like you have two heads--haha!)

I've tried playing for less the first time and "if it works out" more the next time. That has never worked for me or my bands because the owner/manager always states in so many words, "Well, that is our budget, I can't give you any more right now and there are a lot of people who will play for free so..." Yes, it is frustrating.