Upcoming audio comparison

[almeriastrings]

Just getting the strings on these all played in to the same amount... then ready to record them through some nice mics, in a good room, though great preamps. I won't say what they are in advance, but all three are very, very good instruments. Any one of them will cut it in just about any situation, with any company. As usual, exact same strings, pick, and mics in the same position. As many variables as possible removed. No recording, no matter how careful, fully captures everything an instrument is capable of, but you should a least hear some subtle differences.

103252

103253

I'll have the files up as soon as all the strings have equalized.

You might be able to guess the identity of one or more of these..but maybe not ;)

[houseworker]

Looking forward to this!

[almeriastrings]

Just because the subject of whether pick, strings and right hand technique matter more than the instrument, I'll add one of these in too. Set up identically. According to some, should be hardly any difference....

103296

[almeriastrings]

OK. First pair. I was unable to borrow the LM-520, but took my Zoom R16 and a pair of KM-184's along to my friend's place and (in between barking dogs and chirping birds) managed to grab a few samples for comparison. Both mandolins were recorded right after one another in the exact same place with identical mic placement. Strings were both GHS Silk and Bronze. Pick was a Bluechip TAD60. I tried to use identical right hand technique for both 'takes'. First, open strings:

https://soundcloud.com/almeria-strings/openstrings

Next, a couple of licks played on each one.

https://soundcloud.com/almeria-strings/licks

The only variable here was the mandolin. One is 'The Loar LM-520VS' the other is a high-end ($10,000+ range) instrument by a very respected builder indeed.

A difference? I think so. Hmmm.. I hope so :))

[houseworker]

Nice playing as always. OK I've given these 15 minutes back and forward and can say that I prefer the second instrument when you play the licks. Deeper more complex tone. If I'd only heard the open strings it would have been far harder, as I liked the simple clarity of the first mandolin.

This should be a fun thread!

[almeriastrings]

Comparison recordings are very challenging. One issue is that no matter how you do it, you only get a small 'slice' of what is going on. Also, it is very often the case that the best instruments can be the hardest to record... an old D-28 vs. a lowish end Yamaha, for example. One has a lot of low end, a lot of overtones... one doesn't. It can take a lot of work with finding the optimum mic placement, and possibly some EQ to get 'the best' out of some instruments. In a comparison, you can't do that, because everything has to be as equal as possible with the fewer variables the better. There is also an enormous difference from hearing an instrument from say, 24" away (as with mics when recording) to hearing it 'for real' in a a room from 8 or 15 feet away. So, such comparisons are fun and interesting, but hardly definitive. You should generally hear the main 'traits' coming through, however.

[houseworker]

Also tough for the performer, when they're as good as you are, since musicians tend to play to the strengths of an instrument they know and enjoy.

[houseworker]

If I might make a suggestion, it would be that you don't offer a final reveal, just see if a consensus ever emerges. One of the things I've noticed from your earlier similar comparison threads is that most of the people who tell us they'd know the difference between any Chinese mandolin and a Gibson DMM in less than five seconds are surprisingly reluctant to post an opinion.

[almeriastrings]

Good point. Easy to be wise after the event.

Here's a really extreme audio test. Can you tell a genuine Strad from a £39.99 ($75) student violin from a supermarket?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/10116919/Interactive-Challenge-your-musical-ear.html

I got it wrong, by the way!

[houseworker]

As it happens, that test seemed pretty easy, and I did indeed spot the Strad within a few seconds. Not quite so easy with the other two, but they gave no guide as to the quality of the 18C German violin (which I would not have described as exceptional on the basis of the first half of the sound clip), and the recording quality was somewhat variable, but I did call all three correctly. I've been peripherally involved in the violin trade most of my life though, so I'm not your average punter.

[Pete Jenner]

In your clips, the first one is the cheapie.
In the telegraph thing, I picked the student violin but mixed the other two up.

[almeriastrings]

Same here. I got the cheapie right away, but got the Strad and the 18th C. instrument the wrong way round. Much harder with so much reverb layered on there and backing tracks, too.

[houseworker]

OK, I've gone back to that, read the article more carefully, downloaded the clips and listened to each on rather better audio equipment. It's difficult to judge the sound quality of the Tesco violin relative to the other two, since it doesn't sound as though it has been set up to the same standard as the other two instruments. Ms. Stinton doesn't play it with the same fluency either, probably a combination of inferior and unfamiliar set up and the knowledge that it's a cheapie. Her own violin (the 18C German instrument) is rather vaguely described as a "Stradivarius Replica"; like pretty much all such instruments it doesn't really sound like one.

Still, pretty pleased that I was able to spot all three correctly inside 30 seconds listening on a laptop.

[Pete Jenner]

Showoff. ;)

Now that I think about it, the Strad has a flatter frequency response curve than the German one. It sounds more even.
But yes there was a lot of reverb - I assume from the hall it was recorded in?

[Tavy]

I'll throw in my 2c worth, and hope I don't embarrass anyone (or myself!) :)

The first one is quieter and less responsive on the D string, the second has more depth, greater clarity (the first is a touch muffled on the G and D to me) and better balance across the strings.

Of course because I know that getting good balance and clarity down there is a challenge, I could just be hearing what I'm expecting to hear ;)

I think I'd be happy to own either frankly.

[Tavy]

Good point. Easy to be wise after the event.

Here's a really extreme audio test. Can you tell a genuine Strad from a £39.99 ($75) student violin from a supermarket?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/10116919/Interactive-Challenge-your-musical-ear.html

I got it wrong, by the way!

Good test, terrible recordings!

Can I be a Philistine and say I didn't like any of them much?

I got them all right which surprised me, first few seconds of the strad sounded the sweetest to me, so I guessed that to be the strad based purely on reputation, strangely I had the hardest time choosing between the German and supermarket violins - wasn't even a German supermarket chain either ;)

[houseworker]

Can I be a Philistine and say I didn't like any of them much?

Of course you can, and it doesn't make you a Philistine in the slightest. Aside from the problems with indifferent recordings, the performances are very uneven, with the student making heavy weather of the (very difficult) double stopping. That she struggles on an instrument that arrives bridge down from the supermarket (Tesco don't offer set ups!) and possibly still has the supplied cheap steel strings on is no surprise at all.


Much harder with so much reverb layered on there and backing tracks, too.

Oh dear, I hope not! No backing tracks, just some really tough double stops (particularly at the sort of speed Kreisler would have taken them).

The strangest thing about the Telegraph report is referring to the Strad as the "Serdet", both the journalist and quoting the student. "When you play the Serdet it gives this incredible clarity of sound, which is unlike any other instrument I've played before. It offers it so freely, it's easy to tap into and then it just sings."

There is no Stradivari violin generally known as the Serdet. That name is associated with a Guarneri, sometimes described as the first instrument made by del Jesu, although Charles Beare certified it as the work of Guiseppe senior (and its provenance remains in dispute). The instrument played in this test is presumably the "Alumnus Amati" owned by the said Charles Beare. As with the Serdet there is some debate over the attribution of this particular instrument, and I shall be interested to say what Charles Beare (who is curating the Ashmolean exhibition) has to say in the catalogue. You can see it being played by another student who appears at 24.09 in this masterclass:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpp7oxrBUq0

Here's a pretty decent performance (among many on YouTube) of Kreisler's Praeludium and Allegro:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDM3f0SYd3I

An interesting discussion of the place this work holds in the violin repertoire can be found here (http://violinista.blogspot.co.uk/2006/04/kreislers-praeludium-and-allegro_06.html).

[almeriastrings]

Oh dear, I hope not! No backing tracks, just some really tough double stops (particularly at the sort of speed Kreisler would have taken them).


:) Audio engineering in in-joke.

References tracks so heavy with reverb that all you need is a Karaoke track to make it complete. Too much reverb, artificial or natural, covers many sins. Over-relied on by bad singers...

[OldSausage]

Back to the original experiment, I would hope the second one is the expensive mando.

[Marty Jacobson]

Yeah, after listening to the first instrument, the second is like a breath of fresh air.
I think it would be an even more dramatic comparison if you were picking a little further up the neck. Not impugning your playing at all, I just think the differences would be more dramatic as you move up the neck (in terms of pick position).

[almeriastrings]

You're right. One was really poor up the neck. It also had a few intonation issues.

[almeriastrings]

You all got it right. The first mandolin there was a "The Loar" LM-520. The second one was a Tom Ellis F-5 Special. No surprises, there, then :grin:

Now.... this was tricky to do. Three mandolins here (all very good ones), played after each other. Same mics. Same strings. Same pick. The necks and string spacing differences were not easy to deal with right after one another, however. They really are very different in each case. This tune has a lot of open strings and double stop slides, and really brings out the voice of the instruments in the lower range. I will add in some high position closed licks later to highlight those properties. Meanwhile, here's part one:

https://soundcloud.com/almeria-strings/three-mandolins

I think I got a bit faster towards the end. Relief at not messing it up too much, I suspect!

[Bertram Henze]

I am late for this, but I swear I also suspected #2 to be the expensive one before reading the answer. I liked the open G better on the LM-520, though (but then I am not in the "woody balanced tone" camp anyway). However, the difference in sound does by no means justify the difference in price, IMHO - this is far beyond 80/20.

I the violins test, I got the Stradivarius right but mixed up the other two (again, I was just correctly guessing that "that's what those classic violin folks like: the least spectacular, so this must be the Stradivarius").

[Martin Jonas]

Of the three in the second test, I think the third is the most balanced to my ears. The first is a bit on the bright side for me, the second has a fuller, deeper and warmer tone but at the expense of clarity, while the third is somewhere in the middle between the other two. All three very nice instruments, though!

Martin

[Mike Bunting]

On first listening, my ear was drawn to the second sample. Thanks for doing this.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Almeria, I just wanted to say by the way you have a great sound and your a really good player!
I liked the second one as well, I just thiught it had the most depth of sound, you said that was the Ellis F-5 right?

[Steve Lavelle]

I agree that #3 is the most balanced tonally, although I think the playing is less dynamic on that sample and that may have influenced my opinion. Overall, my preference order is 3,2,1.

[mandolirius]

Number Two for me.

[OldSausage]

Weird, maybe it's because I'm listening on my iPad headphones, but I didn't care for #2 so much. I'm not sure what we're supposed to be guessing here - who the builder is? Oddly enough I really liked #1, and even thought it may have been a Silverangel for a minute. #3 was fine but didn't get me all excited. If you told us what the choices were I'd have a stab at it, but one would have to be pretty well-versed to guess the maker from that, I would think.

[almeriastrings]

It is always interesting to hear different mandolins without the 'contamination' of prior knowledge of what they are, also to see how different people clearly express a preference for certain types of tone... from previous things like this, once people know the identity of the instruments, it substantially colors their opinions. So, just concentrating on the sounds and seeing how your preferences fall is fascinating and instructive. I did one test series of recordings some years ago for a well-known guitar company, where guitars with different soundboard materials were recorded (sitka, cedar, red, englemann, european and even carbon fibre). One set of listeners heard them without any information, another set got accurate information, and third set had some false information. It was extraordinary to compare responses. In brief, people are very good at hearing what they expect to hear.

[dusty miller]

Weird, maybe it's because I'm listening on my iPad headphones, but I didn't care for #2 so much. I'm not sure what we're supposed to be guessing here - who the builder is? Oddly enough I really liked #1, and even thought it may have been a Silverangel for a minute. #3 was fine but didn't get me all excited. If you told us what the choices were I'd have a stab at it, but one would have to be pretty well-versed to guess the maker from that, I would think.

Two Fenders and a Rogue? Maybe not.

[almeriastrings]

Definitely not either of those :disbelief:

[shortymack]

I liked number one too. OS and I are the odd couple, Im just wondering who's oscar and who's felix?

[dusty miller]

Two Fenders and a Rogue? Maybe not.

No offense meant to anyone.

[houseworker]

Took my time on this one. Definitely 3 - 2 - 1 the order I like them so far.

[JH Murray]

As a relative newbie in the mandolin world, this is quite the education. To my still developing ear, Three had the most balanced tone. One had nice brightness and clarity but lacking a bit of depth. I found Two to be not as clear, but it did have more depth than One.
So 3,1,2 for me.

[Nick Gellie]

My preferences are: 3,2,1.

As for the makers I would go In the above order Northfield, Silverangel, Triggs

Cheers Nic

[houseworker]

My preferences are: 3,2,1. As for the makers I would go In the above order Northfield, Silverangel, Triggs

I'm very impressed that you should commit to such a precise prediction. If you're proved correct, obviously even more so!

[Mandosummers]

Interesting post! For what its worth I'd say 3 and 2 were my favorites. Both warm and woody and rich. Two is a bit smokey on the treble end, but I like it. Three might cut a bit better in a band? The first sample was a distant third for me. Thanks for the post Almeriastirngs! When are you going to let us know which was which?

[mandrian]

Hi,

I prefer 3, 2, 1.

Regards

[John Kinn]

1. Less overtones but deep sound.
2. More overtones, darker sound (More" Gibsonesque", but not necessarily a Gibson..)
3. Deep sounding, big sound on open strings, almost like a larger instrument.

Best? They're all good!

What brands? Not a clue..:)

[OldSausage]

I've had another chance to listen to them again on some better headphones and I've decided I really can't tell anything about these mandolins from the sound clips, they all sound fine but not exceptional. My only guess about them would be that the action is too high on No.2.

[greg_tsam]

Good point. Easy to be wise after the event.

Here's a really extreme audio test. Can you tell a genuine Strad from a £39.99 ($75) student violin from a supermarket?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/10116919/Interactive-Challenge-your-musical-ear.html

I got it wrong, by the way!

Nice one. I pegged the el cheapo violin but mixed up the strad and 18th century.

[greg_tsam]

I've had another chance to listen to them again on some better headphones and I've decided I really can't tell anything about these mandolins from the sound clips, they all sound fine but not exceptional. My only guess about them would be that the action is too high on No.2.

And there is a slight scratch in the finish near the bridge, bass side.

[OldSausage]

And there is a slight scratch in the finish near the bridge, bass side.

Oh, you noticed that too, did you?

[Clef]

With my ears, number 3 is my favorite. I would rank them 3,2,1, but they all sounded nice. Great picking as well.

[almeriastrings]

OK!

Last bit before all is revealed. A lick using 15th fret, first slowly, then faster, then a descending double stop lick starting on the 7/10 frets.

https://soundcloud.com/almeria-strings/three-mandolins-part-two

[John Kinn]

Really like the "smoky" trebles on nr 2.Very clean trebles on nr 1. But they're still all good. But if you would have me choose one, nr 2 it is!

[OldSausage]

Yes, these are definitely mandolins, I would wager $5 to anyone.

[Mark Seale]

My ears like 3,1,2 in this setup. On the last recording, the individual notes played lightly didn't do much for me on the 3rd, but when you added a little effort to it, the sound emerged. 2 is dark and a little compressed for my taste, and 1 is a nice balanced instrument that sounds like it could be the better of the 3 in a room and not through digital audio and bad speakers...

[greg_tsam]

The first trio I went with 3,2,1 and this last one changed with 2,3,1. 2 and 3 are the better tones to my ear and 1 wasn't as appealing in either.

[almeriastrings]

Before I reveal all, anyone care to say which of the three has a sitka top? Two have Red spruce.

[HoGo]

Originally I thought 3,2,1, best to worst, the 2 sounded a little too muted to me but that could be just you not used to it's neck width or something. On the newer samples the 2 and 3 sound almost equal. #1 seems to lack on D and G.
Sound samples are nice thing but they show less than half of the image how instrument plays and feels.
Pure guess would be sitka is #3...

[almeriastrings]

Sound samples are nice thing but they show less than half of the image how instrument plays and feels.


Totally agree with you there. No matter how it is done, it is a very long way from real life. It gives you a 'snapshot', but that's all.

I have played a couple of very well known instruments that sounded FANTASTIC on records... just like what you'd want an instrument to sound like.... but, when I picked them myself, and even when the owner played them 3 feet away from me I was surprised at how very 'average' they sounded. The reverse side of the coin, I have encountered some great sounding instruments in real life that did not record well at all.

Certainly when you listen to a commercial release, there has been some EQ, compression, reverb and careful mic positioning to optimise that instrument in the mix. In these recordings, there is no EQ or manipulation and the mic position was the same for all of them.

[John Kinn]

Sitka or red would be wild guessing: Just for fun let's say that my favourite (nr 2) is sitka.:confused:

[Mandosummers]

For what its worth, #3 sounds a lot like a Northfield.

[Steve Lavelle]

I still like the sound in 3,2,1 order. I'll guess that 3 is sitka. Based on both recordings, I just find 3 to be the most balanced tonally, but I have too many hours on these old ears to trust them completely.

[Gerard Dick]

Only listened to the first quarter of the violin recordings, and I had it. Like comparing whiskeys. The first 3 notes qualified the first clip as the cheapie. It was downright harsh. The second clip was a lot smoother, but the last clip was smooth like a 20 year old single malt. Definitely the Strad.

[almeriastrings]

The truth is out there.. here actually:

103951

103952

MANDOLIN No.3 was the clear favorite based on the opinions given above. It was frequently described as "balanced". This mandolin was an ELLIS F-5 SPECIAL. It has a very complex, powerful, yet balanced sound. Excellent low end with very clear top end too, and all points in between. It has a wonderfully figured sugar maple back/sides (1-piece back), and a red spruce top. This is one of Tom's most recent mandolins, and is so new it still smells of oil varnish. It only has a few hours playing on it, so it will be interesting to see how it 'opens up' because it is already an awesome instrument in every respect. Construction quality is simply amazing - as clean a build as I have ever seen.

MANDOLIN No. 2 was also very well liked. John Kinn described the trebles as "smoky", which I think sums it up well. It is clear, but also has a warmth. This mandolin has a lot of power... and again, is nicely balanced across the board with considerable complexity (not quite as balanced or complex as the Ellis - but still very impressive). This mandolin is a post-flood Dave Harvey signed GIBSON F-5 FERN. Sitka top on this one, and lacquer finish - both of which I think contribute to slightly warmer, darker tone which is apparent. Some described it as sounding somewhat "compressed" compared to the others - again, I suspect you are hearing the typical property of sitka vs. red spruce here. Good red spruce is hugely dynamic. Both of the others have very, very nice red spruce tops. This Fern is a very nice mandolin indeed.

MANDOLIN No. 1 was the least liked in general. It is not as balanced as either the Gibson or the Ellis - but it is still a very nice mandolin. It was up against some very serious competition here. This mandolin is a custom NORTHFIELD F-5 Master Model. It has the upgraded top, back/sides with a spirit varnish finish.

I think you all did very well indeed and obviously, the Mandolin Cafe has some very finely tuned "ears" for this sort of thing! :mandosmiley:

[John Kinn]

Hey, I described the Gibson as "Gibsonesqe" AND guessed it had the sitka top! Must be my new hearing aids.. or maybe plain luck:)

[Bertram Henze]

Hey, I described the Gibson as "Gibsonesqe" AND guessed it had the sitka top! Must be my new hearing aids.. or maybe plain luck:)

Shhh! One day, instrument manufacturers will market hearing aids that can hear their compatible instruments only... ~:>

[almeriastrings]

Wait until they come up with one where you play a Rogue and just select from a menu whether you want to hear a Gibson, Gilchrist, Ellis, Nugget or whatever....:cool:

[Bertram Henze]

Wait until they come up with one where you play a Rogue and just select from a menu whether you want to hear a Gibson, Gilchrist, Ellis, Nugget or whatever....:cool:

Anybody can do that. It's called subjective perception. :grin:

[shortymack]

The northfiled considering its price compared to the others is the winner here IMO.

[foldedpath]

A good test, thanks for taking the time to do this. Just to prove that no good deed goes without someone nitpicking the details....
:)

I noticed the last three examples (/three-mandolins-part-two) are not level-balanced, which can tend to skew judgement. For example, isolating just the "Tombstone Junction" riff at the end of each example and taking the #2 channel values, I get the following RMS values (lower values = "louder," or more acoustic energy):

Example 1: -19.7 dbFS RMS

Example 2: -18.0 dbFS RMS

Example 3: -17.7 dbFS RMS

Mandolin three's recording of that last riff is a good 2 db hotter than the first mandolin, which is easy to hear, and it's visible in the Soundcloud waveform too.

Now, that's a good thing to show, if we're comparing which instrument is intrinsically louder than the others. That's something mandolin players care about, after all. But it's a difficult thing to do in a controlled way -- eliminating player variables, especially. The more subtle effect of a louder recorded example is that it can skew appreciation of overall tone, since there is a natural human tendency to prefer the slightly louder sound example, all other things being equal.

If the goal is to compare the tone of instruments, then a future test might use RMS balancing of the examples so the tone can be evaluated without the distraction of differences in loudness.

Anyway, not trying to throw too many wet blankets here, and I think the personalities of the instruments in this test come through just fine. I'm just pointing out that differences in loudness do sometimes skew perception of "quality" in an audio comparison. It's just something to be aware of, with tests like this. It's definitely something to keep in mind when comparing audio clips presented by stores selling mandolins, especially if you're comparing clips from different stores!

[mandotrout777]

Interesting test and discussion. Personally, I like the approach taken here, same mic, same mic position, same levels, etc. Doing anything more would skew the results in favor of the quietest mandolin. After all, overall volume is extremely important to pretty much every mandolin player I've ever been around.

I thought the Northfield sounded very similar to a KM1000 I once owned. Now that the consensus seems to be that the NF can't quite run with a Gibson and an Ellis, maybe you could do one of these tests with your top end NF and a decent KM1000. So far, given the prices that NFs are commanding these days, I'm unconvinced that a NF is worth the extra $$$ over a good KM1000.

[almeriastrings]

I considered equalizing the levels, but then... it does reflect the reality. The Ellis is the loudest by quite a margin. It is admittedly pretty difficult to try to play absolutely identically each time too, so certainly that could be a factor - and I think if it was the main factor, then some level adjustments would be well justified. However, in volume terms, the recorded levels here are pretty fair representations of actual performance, so I left them "as is".... this time, anyway :grin:

To be honest, I was surprised myself at the recorded results in this case, as in 'real life' the Northfield sounds (to me) absolutely excellent. The Ellis, though 'fresh off the bench' is truly spectacular, however, and that particular Fern is also a very impressive instrument. It was tough competition. I have played quite a few mandolins that were far more expensive than the Northfield that I have liked quite a bit less. I have a couple of good KM-1000's and - to my ears - the Northfield sounds preferable to either, but that's going from what I hear playing them 'for real' from the player's position, not out in front - whether recordings would agree is an interesting question indeed...

[Mike Bunting]

This is a great thread. Thanks.

[Barry Wilson]

Thanks for doing these. I came in too late to put my 2 bits in but I enjoy these tests you do. Please keep them coming

[Clef]

Thanks for sharing the results. It was cool seeing a Harvey Gibson in the list.

[Vincent Capostagno]

I understand your desire to not equalize the volumes since relative "loudness" is a valid criterium for mandolin purchases, but members should be reminded that small differences in volume are often perceived as a difference in quality of sound, not quantity.

[Randolph]

Almeria, Muchas Gracias...Way cool and nicely done:)

[FLATROCK HILL]

Just hitting the 'Thanks' button hardly seems sufficient. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to make such a valuable contribution.

One thing that I did find a little bit confusing though is the order of the mandolins in the pictures. I picked out the third one (farthest right) as the Northfield. I thought they were played in the same order in the sound clips. That (incorrect ) assumption on my part may have skewed my perception of the clips.

[Bertram Henze]

This is one step towards setting the stage for solving the mystery of opening up. Looking forward to more microaural revelation!

[OldSausage]

Now that the consensus seems to be that the NF can't quite run with a Gibson and an Ellis, maybe you could do one of these tests with your top end NF and a decent KM1000. So far, given the prices that NFs are commanding these days, I'm unconvinced that a NF is worth the extra $$$ over a good KM1000.

I think this is quite an unfair and illogical extrapolation from this tiny bit of data. If you had the mic in a different position, adjusted the EQ, used a different pick or technique, mastered the end result well, or just had someone else play it, it's quite likely that the Northfield could be made to sound like it outshone the other two.

I wonder if it wouldn't be a fairer comparison to set up the recording individually for each instrument to make it sound the best it could. One might find under those circumstances that, horrors, one actually preferred the sound of some sweet little mandolin that you normally would disdain even to pick up. I don't want to labor the point, I think these comparisons are fun and I'm all for them, but I do think it's a mistake to draw too strong a conclusion from them, or to think anything firm has been demonstrated about the quality of the instruments. AlmeriaStrings' personal report of what it's like to hold and play these mandolins carries a lot more weight with me than the sound samples.

[mandotrout777]

I think this is quite an unfair and illogical extrapolation from this tiny bit of data.

I typed a long response to this, but decided to write it off as a reminder of why I am increasingly reluctant to participate in, or even read, this forum.

Have a nice day.

[cayuga red]

I typed a long response to this, but decided to write it off as a reminder of why I am increasingly reluctant to participate in, or even read, this forum.

Have a nice day.


Well stated.

[greg_tsam]

I typed a long response to this, but decided to write it off as a reminder of why I am increasingly reluctant to participate in, or even read, this forum.

Have a nice day.


Well stated.

While I get your point this is a social meeting place that operates on user input and interaction and withholding yours and instead offering to poop on my cornflakes and tell me it's raining does nothing to positively contribute to the cause. What's next? Are you going to remind us that it's not the heat but the humidity?

:)

BTW, thanks for contributing and allowing me a reason to say "poop" and "cornflakes". Now I'd like to address the topic at hand.

Sound comparisons are ineffectual and subjective no matter how scientific. Even if you have a mechanical picking arm, a sound room and a universal harness to give every mando equal effort and tone you still won't know what it feels like to sit there with it in your hands and feel how butter it is too fret and bask in the warm glow of the subtle overtones reverberating off the top.

Maybe it isn't the heat but really is the humidity.

But Almeria wasn't trying to give us all that. Just an attempt at a sound off. Now I've gotten to give my own sound off. :) Thanks for your effort. I enjoyed the post.

[OldSausage]

Just to be clear, I'd be perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong and why, I'm very aware that I don't know much and happy to change my opinions with persuasion, and without rancor.

[greg_tsam]

Just to be clear, I'd be perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong and why, I'm very aware that I don't know much and happy to change my opinions with persuasion, and without rancor.

I have no idea what you just said but it shure did sound pretty. :whistling: I enjoy your posts for the most part and your slightly caustic edginess. Mostly I find you insightful and realize your delivery seems to come from a place of "been there, done that, pass the remote" but not everyone is at your level. You remind me of an IT guy I used to know. You play a lot better than he does though. Just wanted to chime in there since I looked up the word rancor just to be certain

```
Definition of RANCOR

: bitter deep-seated ill will

```

and realized that there isn't any of that around here. While I'm not going to tell you your opinions about this test are wrong (I mostly agree with you.) I will say the voices in my head were arguing over who would be me today.

[dusty miller]

Just to be clear, I'd be perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong and why, I'm very aware that I don't know much and happy to change my opinions with persuasion, and without rancor.

I thought it was well said when someone quotes you, doesn't state their opinion and stomps off. But what do I know I had to look up rancor too. I could say more but enjoy it here at the forum.

[almeriastrings]

I think this is quite an unfair and illogical extrapolation from this tiny bit of data. If you had the mic in a different position, adjusted the EQ, used a different pick or technique, mastered the end result well, or just had someone else play it, it's quite likely that the Northfield could be made to sound like it outshone the other two.


Correct. I made that point myself (several times over). Normally, when recording an acoustic instrument, what you'll do is first chose the best mic for that instrument (by experience, or by switching mics), then, you'll put on a pair of 'phones and move the mic (or mics in stereo) around while the instrument is being played listening carefully. Even a few inches can make a huge difference... closer to the soundhole... nearer to the 12th fret, etc. Mic choice alone can change how an instrument sounds when recorded - the same mandolin through a ribbon vs. a KM184 vs. a LD condenser, for example... and with stereo there are other factors, spaced pair? X/Y? ORTF? it all has an effect. The acoustic environment used to record in also has a huge effect. An untreated room can make anything sound bad... and we haven't even got to dialing in any EQ yet! With these particular recordings I aimed for as much neutrality as possible, but complete neutrality is just about impossible. All it does is give you a brief snapshot - not the whole picture. It is interesting, but I would never - ever - choose a mandolin or guitar based on a recording. You can learn a lot from conducting (and listening) to tests like this, but you won't learn (necessarily) which instrument is "best". Some years ago I did a similar test on two C F Martin guitars, one was a fine vintage D-18, the other was an laminate DX-1. HPL laminate for the back/sides at that, not even real wood. A high percentage of listeners were unable to say which was which and some actually preferred the DX-1 over a pre-war D-18.... Dick Boak and Chris Martin were really tickled by the outcome! Does that mean a DX-1 is as good as a D-18? Clearly not, but it does show that despite being fun (and instructive) to do, never forget the limitations of any recording to truly convey the full picture of an acoustic instrument.

[Bertram Henze]

Aural perception is always circumstantial and subjective. The same instrument played in a different place and/or at a different time will sound different (is that really the same instrument? Cat Man?), so here we are again, arriving at the end of the rainbow, tired and hungry, not finding a pot of gold but just another anti-aircraft searchlight.
Almeria has told us the answer we crave, but we still don't know what the question is.

[almeriastrings]

I can only report what I have learned from doing quite a few such tests/trials/comparisons:

1) The only way to really assess an instrument is to hear it played from at least two perspectives, one while playing it, and the other from in front while someone else plays it in a good acoustic environment. Even playing it while facing a wall is not a great test - the frequencies and phase coming back at you will affect things. We don't have detachable ears, unfortunately..

2) Going by what you hear on a commercial CD is a really bad way to judge anything. A lot has happened to that sound before it emerges from your system... and your system changes it yet again.

3) You can certainly get a reasonably fair sense of differences and characters of sounds from a neutral recording. This can be useful and is certainly interesting.

4) Recordings can be very deceptive and misleading if they are intended to be so. All kinds of tricks and enhancements can be used. If it were not so, probably 90% of "pop stars" would sound diabolical. Some still sound diabolical even after a million $$ studio has done its best - but I digress...

[HoGo]

I agree. I try to record a few licks on my mandolins before they leave and each is different. Some of them sound better on recording, some sound better in person to my ears. Some go very well through the mix with ordinary condenser mics while some sound better with higher quality mics etc...
I would suggest one more test... listen the instruments being in other room or at least behind corner. I built two instruments one with Engelmann top - extremely soft and thickly graduated, used modified x bracing (crossing 2" in front of bridge), the other was Extremely stiff spruce, carved appropriately and. Soundwise they were both great but totally different. First one very mellow woody tone the other more assertive powerful tone. But when my friend played them while I was out to kitchen to bring tea I was not able to tell which one he played.
Thanks almeria for this thread (and future). Some folks don't understand that there's no point to show off some makers or brands in these comparisons....

[Markelberry]

I couldn't tel the difference between the three by much if any? first recording it was easy,but they both sounded fine~