Historical mandolins and cultural preferences [Archive] - Page 2

etbarbaric

Jul-12-2004, 2:13pm

Thanks Eugene, it was good to finally meet you in the flesh.

After handling a Lombardian mandolin, I guess I don't so much think of the Milanese instrument as being huge. In string lenth, it is actually shorter at 32.2mm than my 5-course mandolino (33mm). The difference here is the size of the bowl... particularly the length. In fact, I had to have the wooden table fretts moved on this instrument as they were very slightly sharp. A typical mandolino doesn't have table fretts until frett #11 (so I rarely encounter them in the standard repertoire). On this instrument, with its long body, the first table frett is #7!

Now that you have a mandolino in hand (and finger-style technique in your back pocket) I'm eager to hear what you think of this late 18th-century Viennese (Bohemian!) mandolin music by Germanic masters. (and yes, I do realize that you just got the instrument so we'll give you a little time to learn to play it :-))

Eric

Alex Timmerman

Jul-12-2004, 2:53pm

Hello Eric,

I think Eugene was overwhelmed by your Milanese http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. But you are right; what one sees isn´t always what it is.

My Maraffi Mandolino (as well as it´s original) for instance measures in length 550mm, while the original Milanese mandolin is smaller measuring a 538mm total length.

Well, I think within weeks Eugene will be able to play some fine pieces on his Mandolino.
After all he is a mandolinist ànd a guitarist! And therefore used to the very small distances of the mandolin fingerboard and used to fingerstyle playing of the Spanish guitar.

Best,

Alex

etbarbaric

Jul-12-2004, 3:10pm

Yes, scale is particularly hard to guage in photographs. I remember getting my first mandolino... a copy of the tiny Cutler-Challen Strad. My wife just couldn't believe how small it was... she thought maybe I should have gotten my money back! :-)

Jim Garber

Jul-12-2004, 3:27pm

I remember getting my first mandolino... a copy of the tiny Cutler-Challen Strad. #My wife just couldn't believe how small it was... she thought maybe I should have gotten my money back! #:-)
It is a good thing we don't pay for these mandolins by weight. We pay more than anyone, except maybe for the piccolo. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

etbarbaric

Oct-10-2004, 10:03am

Well, the deed is done. We performed the second of two "Parlour Music" student vocal concerts last night that featured three different "historical" mandolin types (and renaissance lutes.. and baroque and classical guitars). For me this was a sort of an experimental proof-of-concept... of instruments, instrument combinations, and right and left hand techniques. I thought I'd try to relate something of the experience in case its interesting or useful to others.

I wrote of this somewhere else on the board but here's the final cut of what we did with mandolins:

- Aria 'Transit Aetas' from Vivaldi's Oratorio "Juditha Triumphans": voice, 5-course mandolino played with the fingers, baroque guitar reading the (pizzicato) violin part (A-415)

- Mozart song 'Die Zufriedenheit': female voice and 5-course mandolino played with the fingers (A-415) ("Komm, Liebe Zither" was dropped due to pitch problems with a different singer)

- Bortolazzi Theme and Variations: restored original 1801 Cremonese mandolin played with a cherry-wood plectrum and LaCote-copy 19th century guitar. (A-430)

- Mozart's 'deh viene ala finestra' from Don Giovanni: baritone voice, Milanese mandolin played with the fingers, and 19th century guitar (playing the orchestral boom-chucks) (A-430)

All of the mandolins were *completely* strung in gut from top to bottom and the venue was a 500-seat auditorium with a fairly good live accoustic (about 78-80 percent full both nights).

From the comments I received, and the video I have viewed of practice sessions, projection was simply not an issue. For the most part, this was an audience that was unfamiliar with the mandolin (much less early versions) and many of them commented that they just couldn't believe the sounds they were hearing from these small instruments. The tiny 200+ year old Cremonese mandolin in particular makes a large and very surprising sound. Based on rehearsal feedback, we had to get the guitarist to play out more! (and his guitar is *not* quiet) I got comments from one guy who sat in the back row of the balcony that he could hear all of the mandolins loud and clear. One older friend who is quite hard of hearing said he could hear everything just fine.

Given the operatic settings for a couple of these pieces, the instruments would have had to succeed in large venues and indeed they seem to do so. I personally think that these instruments are pitched and designed so that even with gut strings and finger-style play, they tickle just the right part of human hearing, even if their "volume" is small.

This small real-world test has helped me appreciate the genius of these composers and their choice of the mandolin for various purposes. Mozart on the instruments in fourths is simply wonderful. "Deh viene" in particular is complete fun to play with the fingers and the juxtaposition of all of those sixteenth notes on the mandolin with the long low legato baratone voice is well... amazing.

Many thanks to Alex in particular for his generosity in helping to reproduce his lovely original Milanese mandolin and for his insightful comments on early plectrum technique. And of course, thanks to Sebastian Nunez and Mateo Scolari.

As always with public performance, there are things I am proud of... and things I wish I had done better. Overall I think it was a positive experience and its proved to me that the right instrument coupled with hopefully informed technique can answer alot of questions.

Back to the practice room,

Eric

Alex Timmerman

Oct-10-2004, 12:38pm

Hello Eric,

Great to see you really bring all this in practise!

Congratulations!

Alex

Bob A

Nov-17-2004, 11:40am

Just keeping it alive.

Eugene

Nov-17-2004, 11:55am

In the spirit of keeping it alive and in reference to the previously discussed Smorsone mandolino that had been converted to a Cremonese mandolin, here is a Smorsone (http://home.clara.net/brucebrook/restoration.htm) that had been converted to a Milanese mandolin with a guitar-like figure-8 headstock, then restored to mandolino form by UK luthier Bruce Brook (http://home.clara.net/brucebrook/). Smorsone seems very prolific, with a piece or two cropping up in a great many major European collections. All his mandolini of which I am aware were built for six courses. Any idea why Bruce opted to restore this as a five-course instrument? Any precendents?

etbarbaric

Nov-17-2004, 12:13pm

Thanks Eugene, very intersting. Just from subjectively looking at the photos it seems a little more narrow than the typical Smorsone. The "before" photo is a little dark but it may have the original bridge... if so, he may have been able to discern the original config. He references a Smorsone in the Royal College of Music... Anyone know how that one is configured?

I briefly considered attempting a similar restoration project on a brutally hacked Smorsone that was recently on the market. In this case it looked like the infamous butchery of Francolini... the original bridge and table were gone as was half of the peghead and most of the original fretboard. The deal killer was a huge break across the back shoulder that my luthier pronounced as fatal. Someone did eventually buy it... anyone know where it went?

Eric

ps - I do seem to remember a 5-course Smorsone... now where that was exactly I can't remember. The 5-course instrument certainly existed during and past Smorsone's time.

Alex Timmerman

Nov-17-2004, 6:14pm

Hello Eugene, Eric and others,

This is the story: The Smorsone (1721) shown here in it´s six string alteration, was bought at an auction held by an English country side auction-house. It is one of the earliest known examples by this Roman maker.

Years ago the owner contacted me via the The Hague Musical Instruments Museum about its originality etc.
After having examined the possibilities of the instrument (age, bridge, fingerboard and size etc.) I came to the conclusion that it originally had been a Smorsone with five double strings. Smorsone made both, the five- and six double stringed Mandolino model.

The instrument was then brought for restoration to the West Dean College where Bruce Brook was a musical instrument maker student.

Best,

Alex

etbarbaric

Aug-15-2005, 8:23am

Just to follow up after a long break. Here is an example from a concert last October of using a five-course gut-strung mandolino for Mozart's "Die Zufriedenheit" with finger-style technique... It was a student concert... please be gentle... :-)

http://www.solsurvival.com/2004_concert/zufriedenheit_web.mov

Eric

Jonathan Rudie

Aug-15-2005, 10:27am

Bravo Eric!

Eugene

Aug-15-2005, 12:23pm

Very nice! Thank you, Eric.

Plamen Ivanov

Aug-16-2005, 3:03pm

Eric, in your hands the five-course gut-strung mandolino looks (and sounds) like the easiest instrument in the world! Bravo! May be the singing could be just a little bit better or it might be the quality of the recording, but your playing - WOW!!!

You have performed the "short version" of the piece, right? I mean two stanzas less, than the original. I think it`s a good choice for performing this pice live for the audience.

Thank you!

etbarbaric

Aug-16-2005, 4:52pm

Thank you very much gentlemen for your very kind words... they are much appreciated on a fairly brutal day. I wouldn't call the mandolino easy exactly, but once you know a few "secrets" it can be quite rewarding. It simply makes my day if it looks easy! :-) IMHO the mandolino is a very graceful little instrument... one of the reasons that I particularly like it for this music... and as I've said, this piece in particular is a natural for the mandolino.

I can tell you that in my first few years of trying to figure out how to play the instrument my efforts were anything but graceful or rewarding. I went through two or three completely different approaches to holding and plucking the instrument before a survey of 18th-century iconography pointed the way to my present technique. I've changed things a little from when these recordings were made as well. My right hand now stays much closer to the bridge, and doesn't move around so much... My little finger is usually off of the table now, though I'm sure people did both.

Yes, this was a student concert, and all of the singers were students. It was a first for many of them to perform with an accompanist... much less one with a mandolino! you are correct Plamen, the singer did decide to go with just three verses of the Mozart... as you imply, all five can get a little long and repetitive (particularly for those who don't understand the German text... like most of our audience!). The singer selected three verses that told a good story (she is a very good German speaker)... again, not that it mattered particularly with our audience. She obviously also added some embellishments as well... The only real problem that I had with her was getting her to _slow down_... as she tended to run over cadences (where the mandolin part has all of the fast little ornamental notes!!!).

Now that I've finally put together all of the necessary software to process the bits on the DVD, I can post some other sections of the concert if there is interest. I'll try to grab the Bortolazzi in particular since it was played on a 200+ year old Cremonese mandolin. I'm trying to get video for the first night's concert... if my recollection serves me, there is a much better performance of "Deh viene ala finestra" from Mozart's Don Giovanni. For that one I used a copy of Alex' original 18th-century Milanese mandolin.

Best,

Eric

etbarbaric

Aug-16-2005, 10:24pm

I can't quite believe I'm posting this... but here is one of the Bortolazzi Theme and Variations for those who have never heard a real Cremonese mandolin. The guitar is a lovely modern copy of a 19th-century Lacote. We were pressed for time in a very long concert so we took no repeats... (I like repeats... they give you a second chance to get things right!). The camera angles are a bit odd... its either shot from across the hall... or zoomed in on my lap... go figure...

http://www.solsurvival.com/2004_concert/bortolazzi.mov

The mandolin in this case is a Cremonese mandolin built by Matteo Scolari in 1801 (the things you used to be able to find on Ebay!). I am indebted to an international and far-flung cast of people for help with this restoration, including our own Alex who gave me advice and insights on the other surviving Scolari in the Hague. The instrument was painstakingly restored to playable condition by Larry K. Brown in the summer of 2004. The mandolin is strung entirely in gut (configured and supplied by Olaf Chris Hendriksen of Boston Catlines), with a "gimped" gut G-string made by Dan Larson. The plectrum is a long cherry-wood model made by Sebastian Nunez (or did you make these Alex?)

As you can probably tell, I was scared to death that the thing would implode... or that I would drop it (Larry had promised me a painful death if I broke it). The top (less than 1mm thick in some places) was restored from no less than seven separate pieces (plus some toothpick-sized pieces), and the lovely original bridge had been split right along the line of the strings (the worst possible place). The neck also had to be completely extracted from its little dove-tail, re-shimmed, and reset. The pegs are not original and are based on those on the other Scolari. I don't believe the bone frets are original (they might have been gut frets originally). The frets are quite oddly placed... we literally didn't know until the last minute if the intonation would work... but it seems to.

In the end, the instrument is quite stable... In fact, its basically stayed in tune since the concert!... even though it was having a little trouble staying in tune *during* the concert. As I hope you can tell... it has absolutely no problem projecting... even in a large hall.

At the time I had just gotten the instrument back and was trying to rapidly learn the loose-grip long-plectrum technique... which I clearly hadn't quite mastered by then. I'm playing fairly high up on the instrument in the video... I probably would try to play a little lower now. The mandolin is very tiny, so its hard to find room for the hands. In any case, from the wear on the top, its clear that this is roughly where previous hands have fallen... with the concentric inlayed circles around the soundhole acting as a sort of pick-guard.

Best,

Eric

Martin Jonas

Aug-17-2005, 5:38am

Eric, the Bortolazzi is truly lovely. Great playing and a wonderful tone from the Cremonese mandolin. I'm impressed with how cleanly it intonates and with the purity of the tone.

Martin

Alex Timmerman

Aug-17-2005, 5:41am

Hello Eric,

Simply marvellous!

Now everybody can understand why Bartelomeo Bortolazzi preferes the nice and even sound of his Cremonese mandolin above the 'yangling' Neapolitan mandolin strung with it's hotchpotch of metal wound- and twisted and plain gut string pairs at the time (Bortolazzi's tutor: 'Anweisung der Mandoline', pub. Leipzig-1805).

What a nice sound.

Congrats and thanks so much for sharing this,

Best,

Alex

PS. The plectrum could well have been made by either one of us, since we made the first examples on my kitchen table after my specifications.

margora

Aug-17-2005, 8:16am

Eric, a lovely performance, very musical. Who made the guitar?

vkioulaphides

Aug-17-2005, 8:23am

Lovely, Eric!

etbarbaric

Aug-17-2005, 9:47am

Thanks all... this one is a little hard for me to watch (I miss the *same* notes *every* time!!).

Robert, neither I nor my duo partner (Dr. Kerry Alt) can remember the maker of his 19th-century guitar off the tops of our heads (we're both at our respective places of employment just now). It will come back to one of us... The maker is not particularly well known. I think he literally made just a handful of guitars and then went on to doing something else. Kerry's guitar is very pretty... and though you probably can't tell, its built from psychadelic bird's-eye maple.I did answer the maker question once for Eugene months ago in another thread... maybe someone remembers it.

The secret to the tone of the Cremonese mandolin is that it is *incredibly* light. Look carefully at any copy to see that it has a very thin (and hopefully stiff) top. This particular instrument is likely successful because of the old European spruce that was available then. The old makers had access to north-slope, slow-growing, tight-grained European spruce that was very stiff. That's why it was worth the effort and expense to save the table on this instrument. Even with all of the glue joints and small reinforcing cleats, it still works like its supposed to.

That the Scolari intonates at all accurately is miraculous... given the seemingly random placment of the ivory frets. I would much rather have gut frets... but the ivory frets were cut into the lovely inlayed fingerboard, so there was no way to remove them gracefully. Because the instrument has single (rather than double) courses, and because they are gut, its quite easy to pull a note to bring it up to pitch... or likewise to apply only gentle left-hand pressure to avoid pulling a note higher than it might otherwise be.

Best,

Eric

onthefiddle

Aug-18-2005, 6:25am

Thanks for the wonderful recordings Eric.

"north-slope, slow-growing, tight-grained European spruce" is still readily available, at least in Europe! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif We pay quite a premium for it compared to your average lumber, but it's an essential ingredient for many stringed instruments.

I suspect the main difference that accounts for the strength and stability of the exceptionally thin soundboards of these old plucked instruments, compared to the thicker soundboards found on most modern instruments, is the cut of the wood. To be more precise - I suspect that the front of your Scolari was split rather than sawn. Splitting means that the fibres of the wood are maintained along the grain, whereas in sawn wood short fibres often occur - thereby weakening the wood. Split wood for Violin fronts is still available, but at a premium as there is more wastage in cleaving wood than in sawing, I'm not aware of anyone supplying thinner split fronts. Also wood that cannot be split acceptably (e.g. because of twisted growth) can be sawn and still sold for use in lower grade instruments.

Anyway, I intend to try this for myself in the near future - I'll have to split the soundboard from a wedge intended for a Violin front. It's still scary contemplating making an instrument with a front that thin though! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jon

etbarbaric

Aug-18-2005, 9:21am

An interesting notion. You've had me thinking Jon (if you'll pardon the musings of a non-luthier). On the one hand, it would seem that if you ultimately subject the top (flat or carved) to plane and scraper (as you ultimately must), you're bound to break fibers right and left in any case.

However, perhaps it has more to do with the fact that if you are *able* to split a top, the grain must, by definition, be extremely straight and unidirectional. After all, it would seem that we are after having the *internal* wood fibers (not necessarily those on the surface that will ultimately be broken) retain their integrity. This straightness would then presumably lead to stiffness and/or springyness. I'm just wondering if splitting functions as a sort of sorting technique. If you can't split it, it isn't good top material because the grain isn't predictable/consistent. Sawing lets you make a (visibly) flat board from almost anything... though it doesn't tell you anything about its internal structural integrity.

Of course, the grain in any case only provides strength in one direction (along the grain). Anyone who's ever handled a spruce lute top thinned to its final thickness knows that there is very little strength in the cross-grain direction. That's what those bars are for.

I know that violin billets are tradionally split. Do we have evidence that lute tops were split as opposed to being resawn?

Eric

ps - I was worried that this might be leading off topic... but since this thread is about historical practices... :-)

onthefiddle

Aug-18-2005, 9:58am

"if you ultimately subject the top (flat or carved) to plane and scraper (as you ultimately must), you're bound to break fibers right and left in any case" - True! However, structurally the vast majority of fibres will remain intact in a split front, while a sawn front is very likely to be weakened by short fibres before you put plane or scraper to it.

You're spot on regarding the suitability of any particular piece of wood for splitting!

"Of course, the grain in any case only provides strength in one direction (along the grain). Anyone who's ever handled a spruce lute top thinned to its final thickness knows that there is very little strength in the cross-grain direction. That's what those bars are for." Yes, and I would definitely make the bars from split wood too for that reason. Indeed, I use split spruce for Violin bassbars.

"Do we have evidence that lute tops were split as opposed to being resawn?" Ah! Now you have me...I'll have to get back to you on that one! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It may be very hard to prove, however - I am doing research in this area currently, so I'll make a particular point of trying to find out! My theory is based purely on the fact that ,as a luthier trained in the making of a variety of baroque instruments, as well as modern violins, the first thing that occurs to me when I think of making an instrument with a circa 1mm thick soundboard is that I want my spruce to be split, and of the highest quality - or I'll have an unhappy customer returning to me with a very disfunctional instrument! I would imagine that at least one face of a Lute soundboard would be split, the smaller soundboard of a Mandolino would be easier to completely split.

Of course, the fact that maintaining fibres in the soundboard by using split wood is generally accepted as a sure ingredient for a particularly resonant instrument, certainly does no harm either. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jon

etbarbaric

Aug-20-2005, 6:01pm

Robert, neither I nor my duo partner (Dr. Kerry Alt) can remember the maker of his 19th-century guitar off the tops of our heads (we're both at our respective places of employment just now). It will come back to one of us...

Hi Robert, the maker of my duo partner's 19th-century guitar was Scott Tremblay.

BTW, I've determined that the first night's concert was not recorded on video... and the audio recordings are of such a poor quality that they're not likely to demonstrate much of use once they're conpressed to fly on the Web. Suffice to say that Mozart's "deh viene ala finestra" is just wonderful to play on the mandolino in forths with the fingers... You'll just have to take my word for it! Or better yet, try it youselves! :-)

Eric

ps - Let this be a lesson... if you are you accompanying a young singer, it is probably OK to let him have one (1) glass of wine to calm his nerves before the performance... but two (2) glasses are *not* better than one!

mandolinoman

Aug-20-2005, 9:49pm

Eric,

I never saw a very small mandolin, but you are an excellent player. #I enjoyed watching the video clip.

All my best friendly regards to you and to the mandolin fans.

George

Eugene

Sep-03-2005, 9:26am

Any thoughts regarding the mandolin type for which Gragnani (1768-early 19th c.) intended his mandolin music? He started life in Livorno, Italy, spent some time on the move in Germany, and eventually settled in Paris. The manuscript of the three nocturnes for guitar and mandolin carries an Italian-language title page and is held in Dubrovnik, Croatia. I don't know when or where or for whom they were set to paper, but I would speculate these to be for the Neapolitan type.

etbarbaric

Sep-03-2005, 9:24pm

Hi Eugene,

I don't know this composer or his music so I can't hazard a guess. Determining where (and for whom) the pieces were written could yield some clues, of course. Are these three pieces available in modern edition and/or facsimile? I'd love to check them out.

Best,

Eric

Eugene

Sep-04-2005, 4:00pm

Yes, Carlo Aonzo and Luigi Verrini (2002) put together an edition for publication through Berben. The notturni are really pleasant with a good degree of mandolin-guitar dialog (the guitar gets to enjoy a bit more than boom-chuck-chuck). They can be taken without ever leaving first position, but still manage to sound mighty musical. Gragnani is pretty well-known to guitarists, was one of that first generation to bring guitar into the classical era and six strings, and was a friend of Carulli. I especially like Gragnani's chamber music.

etbarbaric

Sep-04-2005, 5:13pm

Thanks. Can you tell me who sells this edition?

As for stabs in the dark and blatant opinions, I personally very much like the sound of a gut-strung mandolin paired with a gut-strung 19th-century guitar. Knowing whether the pieces were written in Germany or Paris could be helpful as preferences in those two cities seem to have been very different. If Gragnani was writing in Germany or Austria, I might lean towards a gut-strung model. I suppose it would be interesting to do a survey of original music for the mandolin and guitar pairing from this period:

- Bortolazzi, Cremonese (gut)
- Von Call, Milanese or Mandolino (presumably gut)
- Paganinni, Genoese (presumably metal-strung)

What other *original* music for mandolin and guitar do we have from the period? I supposed Hoffmann might count... since the basso parts for his quartets are intended for the liuto... likely a late mandora (presumably with guitar tuning). Here again I would presume a gut-strung instrument for the mandolin part.

Are there any specific mandolin/guitar pairings from contempory (or earlier) French rep.? Come to think of it I can't recall anything for this pairing that specifically calls for the Neapolitan instrument.

On the other hand, my head is very fuzzy today... I'll probably remember something after I post this...

Eric

margora

Sep-04-2005, 6:44pm

Quote: "Thanks. Can you tell me who sells this edition?"

Trekel (www.trekel.de) carries it. I haven't checked Guitar Solo but that is a possibility as well.

margora

Sep-04-2005, 6:53pm

Correction: Guitar Solo does not carry the Gragnani; however, in addition to Trekel, one can order it directly from Berben, www.berben.it

Eugene

Sep-05-2005, 9:21am

Of course, the Giuliani quintets also specify liuto. Sparks (1999) only offers speculation on accompanying the Neapolitan instrument with guitar: "The guitar was a popular choice in Vienna ca. 1800, and it may well have been used together with the mandoline in Paris 25 years earlier."

I just don't know where or when in his career Gragnani wrote the nocturnes for mandolin. I suppose I can ask Carlo if he gleaned any clues in preparing the Berben edition.

margora

Sep-05-2005, 10:32am

Eugene: I've not played the Nocturnes, but I assume these are different from what are known as the "Sonatas" by Gragnani which are for violin+guitar, and which work perfectly fine for mandolin + guitar. Correct?

Eugene

Sep-05-2005, 12:45pm

Correct, these are something different. #The title page reads Tre Notturni a Chitarra e Mandolino del Sig. Gragnani.

One of the ensembles with which I play regularly does the fine trio op. 13 for flute, violin, and guitar (I play the guitar in it). #Again, I really like Gragnani's chamber music and am surprised by the neglect it endures today, especially given the excess of perfromance of chamber music by some other classical-era guitar composers.

etbarbaric

Oct-19-2005, 9:14am

Hi Eugene, et. al,

Yesterday I received the Gragnani "tre notturni" from Trekel in the mail along with his three duetti for violin and guitar. Looking at the Notturni (though I haven't played through them yet) they certainly seem to imply an instrument tuned in fifths (Cremonese or Neapolitan/Roman style) played with a plectrum.

As another data point, the violin/guitar "duetti" seem to indicate authorship in Milano, ca 1810. This guy clearly got around!

I'm quite taken with the pairing of gut-strung instruments (e.g. Cremonese/milanese) with the 19th century guitar (alla Bortolazzi)... so that's how I will likely play them. They would clearly work on the wire-strung variants as well.

Eric

Eugene

Oct-19-2005, 1:01pm

Thanks for the thoughts, Eric. #I am as likely to take them both ways (i.e., either gut or wire) as the whim takes me.

Eugene

Nov-11-2005, 9:58pm

I've been playing the Gragnani notturni on mandolno Bresciano since Sunday. I love them that way!

Plamen Ivanov

Dec-02-2005, 11:12am

Beethoven`s original score (Big Fugue for string quartet) was found 4 months ago in a library in Philadelfia. It has been considered lost from 115 years. May be there`s also a hope for Beethoven`s lost 5. mandolin piece.

Margriet

Jun-27-2011, 5:55am

This thread has a lot of information, that still is very interesting.

New members, interested in historical mandolins, their tuning, strings and music played on, may not know that this is here, as there were no posts for a longtime.

Recently there are discussions about plectra and quills, gut and metal strings and terminology. There are the threads about Fabricatore, Lombardian mandolins............reason enough for me to bring it into life again.

Last thread with discussion about these topics is the one at "builders and repair": plans of Brescian mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?74060-Plans-of-Brescian-mandolin...

I think it is worth to have this discussion in the classical section. Maybe this thread is a good one for it.

etbarbaric

May-12-2019, 5:27pm

After all these years, I still enjoy this thread. It is interesting reading what we thought we all knew years ago... :-)

I thought I'd push it to the top to see if anyone is interested in these discussions.

Best,

Eric

pav

Jun-09-2019, 1:38pm

Galfetti recorded the Hummel sonata without tremolo, I believe on the Cremonese-type instrument, but his instrument choice is never specified in the liner notes. #(Richard says Orlandi's recording is with a Cremonese mandolin, but I don't have that one.) #I assume to compensate for the rather rapid decay of mandolins in general, Galfetti takes the tempo of the middle movement a bit faster, maybe a solid andantino or so. #Frankly, I like this movement to be just a touch slower. #I also like what Richard has written of tremolo in this piece, that "It also provides more distinction between the pianoforte and the mandolin (the two instruments can sometimes sound so much alike in certain passages)." #I find this interesting and quite true given the percussive, bell-like attack of a singularly plucked note. #Of course, I have no way of knowing whether Hummel wanted the two instruments to blend as one or to contrast. #I don't imagine we ever will know unless somebody finds conclusive evidence of the instrument preferred by Dr. Malfatti.

Richard also writes Bone is usually unclear as to which mandolin species he was addressing in any of his articles. #I might even accuse Bone of occasionally being boldly, blatantly speculative. #He goes so far as to provide an image of the bowl of "Beethoven's Mandolin" that looks for all the world like a Lombardian instrument made more than half a century after Beethoven's passing. #The picture he offers of "Paganini's Mandolin" looks like a Genovese-type instrument, but with the peghead modified to carry four courses of paired strings riding down the center-most nut slots of an unmodified 6-course nut! #A seemingly odd way to modify an instrument from six courses to four! #Does anybody know where this instrument resides now?

Bone also writes that the Viennese guitarist Mertz taught and composed for mandolin. #I have searched a number of online catalogs of well-known collections of guitar music as well as consulting scholarly friends with substantial private collections and found no evidence of extant mandolin music by Mertz. #Mertz played guitars by Schertzer, a protege of the Stauffer shop. #When Makaroff, another guitarist, visited Schertzer, he wrote that Schertzer had no guitars commissioned to show him, but did show him a mandolin commissioned by "Count L." #The mandolin was "excellently made." #I have mused that Schertzer might have had a semi-standardized model for mandolins, and if Mertz, a popular and published guitarist, did play and compose for mandolin that it may have been the same species commissioned from Schertzer by "Count L."...and may even be whatever species was most popular in Vienna at that time. #I don't think anybody has uncovered a mandolin that could be solidly attributed to Schertzer. #I know Alex has unearthed some interesting Cremonese-type flat instruments of Austrian origin. #Of course, there is still no guarantee that an Italian expatriate, which I'm guessing Malfatti was, would favor Vienna's popular breed of mandolin (whatever that was) over a Neapolitan.

:redface: Embarrasment at coming into a conversation which is obviously highly informed and erudite, to ask a question which I am PROBABLY (?) asking in the wrong place... Please correct me gently...!
Basically, I have a nicely made Milanese mandolin, without any maker's mark at all, and with two unusual features
A- the peghead ends not in the usual square block, but in a violin-like scroll
B- the body is lined with thin spruce running "east - west" i.e. at right-angles to the obvious external body segments.
If anyone feels kind enough to make any suggestions I can send out some reasonable photographs
Peter "Pav" Verity, in Edinburgh

vic-victor

Jun-09-2019, 8:28pm

Hello Peter. Mandolins lined inside with spruce shavings rather than paper is a feature of a Roman school of mandolin making. Your mandolin could be made by a Roman luthier or someone fond of Roman school anywhere else :)

Eugene

Aug-25-2019, 5:10pm

I'd like to see, Pav. Can you share those images? I have handled and measured an odd early Embergher in six courses, but with a completely unscrolled, flat peghead,

vic-victor

Aug-25-2019, 11:32pm

Hi Eugene. Did you happen to photograph that odd Embergher? I'd be very interested to see the pics. PM me if for any reason publishing here is not appropriate. Thanks.

Eugene

Nov-09-2019, 12:27am

Sorry to have missed this comment, vic-victor. Yes, I did, but they're of poor quality and not where I'm traveling. Keep hassling me, and I'll try to remember to PM a couple when I can find where I've stashed the files. The photos were taken on a recon mission for a book project, and I never managed to revisited for proper photography because the project was ultimately aborted. The instrument itself is an odd duck, a little early for Emberghers, a little coarse. I suspect it may have been built to the concept of "Mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche" as described in the appendix to Pisani (1899).

Eugene

Nov-09-2019, 10:37am

And in case you're still peeking in, pav, this is a ca. 1890 mandolino toscano (again following the nomenclature given by Pisani: like the Brescian, but later and with a larger lombardo-like soundbox) of mine by Bavassano e Figlio.

181075

Graham McDonald

Nov-10-2019, 4:07am

Eugene, might that odd Embergher be the six course instrument in the Stearns Collection at the University of Michigan? I will post some photos tomorrow.

Simon DS

Nov-10-2019, 4:40am

Eugene

Nov-10-2019, 7:02am

Yes it is, Graham. Have you visited it in person?

Graham McDonald

Nov-10-2019, 6:55pm

I spent a couple of days in the old warehouse that the Stearns collection was housed in back in 2012 or2013 and photographed and measured pretty well all the mandolin family instruments there. From memory the collection has been moved to a more suitable repository, but the last I heard it was not very accessible to the public. I couldn't work out what this was for a few years until I realised that it was likely to be an attempt by Embergher to modernise a Milanese/Lombardic mandolin.

It has 21 rosewood ribs and measured 150mm from the nut to the 12th fret and 305mm from the nut to the glued on bridge. The fretboard was 45mm at the nut and the outside strings were 78mm apart at the bridge. The fretboard was scolloped (or should that be scalloped) between the bar frets. A hand written label
Luigi Embergher
Costruttore di strumenti ti armonica
Roma
1890

From the collection serial number it would have been one of the original collection put together in the 1890s.

181099
181100
181101
181102
181103