Hand pain with mando, none with guitar. Any ideas?

[Johnny60]

Hi folks,

I'm 52, been playing guitar since I was about 13 and have been a mando player for around 1 and a half years.

When I first started playing the mando, I noticed that my fingers seemed really cramped (or really stretched in the case of chop chords) and I quite quickly developed nodules on my 1st and 2nd fretting finger joints, where the finger meets the hand. My physio showed my some excercises and stretches and the problem went away.

However, I've found recently that if I take the mando to a jam, that involves a lot of "chopping" then the tendons on the tops of my hands, my wrist and sometimes even my elbow do flare up. My whole fretting hand seems to cramp up, for want of a better term. (I feel the need to shake out the soreness).

The thing is though, that no matter how long or how often I play my guitars, this problem never, ever crops up. It's playing the mando that does it.

So, is it a technique thing, a position thing, or a fretboard thing?

In terms of position, I usually play the mando with a strap, and the mando sits nicely nicely at around elbow height, if that makes sense. It means that the right hand just leans over towards the mando, and the left lower arm has a more or less right-angle bend from the elbow with the upper arm. All nice and relaxed. Can't remember what he's called, but there's a performing arts doctor and mando player/teacher who's video I've watched on youtube and so I replicate what he suggested.

In terms of how I hold the mando neck, I try to leave a gap whenever possible between the hand and the neck of the instrument, so that it kind of sits in the V of the thumb and first finger. Chop chords are a major problem, so there's a lot more contact when using those. One thing my wife noticed is that whenever I do a chop chord my wrist bent at a right-angle, but without that bend I can't seem to get the full stretch.

The instrument is an Eastman 505. My understanding is that it's got a 1 and 3/32 nut width, and the neck is very slim and v-shaped. It's got a radius.

Again, my understanding is that a radius is better for tendons, but some people say it makes no difference. Also, some people say that wide nuts are better (1 and 1/8th or bigger) but wouldn't that exacerbate chop chord stretches?

Feel free to chip in and offer advice if you're suffering (or have suffered) in any way from tendons/cramping when playing the mando.

As I said earlier, I NEVER get this issue when I play any of my guitars - so it could be to do with the width of the neck, the depth of the neck, the general smallness of the neck compared with a guitar, or it could just be those damned chop chords!!

I'm really enjoying playing the mando, and it's even helped me to be a faster lead guitarist, but it's becoming a pain!

Thanks

John

[bratsche]

It's a much smaller instrument than you're used to, with strings under far more tension than you're used to, and you're fretting two at a time with one finger instead of just one, so it would be more surprising if you didn't hurt somewhere while getting used to the difference! How is the setup on your instrument? Is it low enough?

I prefer mandola to mandolin, and notice that even between those two instruments, the larger/lower tension one is much easier to play, and the smaller/higher tension one tends to cramp me up when playing for an extended period.

bratsche

[JeffD]

Hmmm. I am perhaps not quite visualizing correctly. I don't notice myself holding my left wrist significantly different for chop chords, compared to say my wrist position playing a single note melody.

[bookmn]

I can't add much but I can certainly say I'm having the same experience. Guitar was (almost) never a problem, but my hands are sore now when I wake up. I doubt my posture and form are perfect as I'm learning from books, but I try. I'm also pretty sure I'm tensing up and pressing a lot on the fretboard.

I've been trying to stretch, keep practices short, and relax when I play. Maybe as we play more we'll loosen up. Good luck!

[mandolinlee]

My fretting hand has some problems with stiff finger joints (early arthritis?) and one finger that won't straighten out completely. This sometimes causes pain and problems when playing for a long time, esp. w/ 4-finger chop chords. My solution has been to work up and use 2 & 3 finger chords. These chords sound as good as the 4-finger variety and are a lot easier to play.

Give 'em a try, they could give you some relief.

Lee

[Tom Cherubini]

A similar thing happened to me. I've played (jazz) guitar for 40++ years without hand problems. This past winter I picked up a mandolin for the first time. Within a month's time I had a 'trigger-finger' - flexor tendon teno-sinovitis - in my right index finger from holding the pick. Disgusting! Now I need to have it released - or not play. Steroid ointments and ibuprofin are only a stop gap fix.

Tom C.

[shortymack]

I had hand problems when I first switched/started too and it turned out to be setup related, nut slots too high. Did a setup and it went away.

[dfalkiewicz]

Sounds like tendonitis or arthritis to me............solution? Well I lived on ice packs 3-5 times a day............stretching exercises, and massage helped, but I still had pain. Then was turned on to Glucosamine & Chondroitin.........and for me this solution worked. But I also worked with therapy, and got the doctor's ok. Since on G&C, I have got a mandolin, and squareneck dobro........both instruments that I originally sold years back because of the tendonitis..........and pain free.

[bratsche]

A similar thing happened to me. I've played (jazz) guitar for 40++ years without hand problems. This past winter I picked up a mandolin for the first time. Within a month's time I had a 'trigger-finger' - flexor tendon teno-sinovitis - in my right index finger from holding the pick. Disgusting! Now I need to have it released - or not play. Steroid ointments and ibuprofin are only a stop gap fix.

Tom C.

Are (or were) you using the so-called "power grip"? If so, that one for any length of time bothers me a lot, too. I didn't get trigger finger from it, but would have to stop whenever curling my index finger made it go completely numb (as in no sensation at all - usually in about 10-15 minutes). I have to have the finger extended at least partially. (That's one reason why I like the Roman plectrum so much more.)

bratsche

[avaldes]

I have played guitar a long time, primarily flamenco for much of that, and I did develop right hand problems, but not fretting hand. Mostly due to bad technique, which I corrected by practicing in front of a mirror and focusing on my right hand. I took up mandolin last September and developed soreness in my fretting hand, but since then that has largely gone away, except my elbow gets sore. I play guitar seated but usually play mandolin standing with a strap over one shoulder, elbow height.

From a previous session with a physio therapist, I learned to do contrast baths and still do them now and then. Find 2 containers that can accommodate hand and wrist (cheap celery keepers for the fridge work). Fill one with warm and one with cool water. Dip the hands cool to warm to cool again, 30 sec to a minute in each, maybe 5 rounds. I think the idea is the cool calms inflammation, and the warm stimulates circulation and flushes the bad stuff out.

[lenf12]

My solution has been to work up and use 2 & 3 finger chords. These chords sound as good as the 4-finger variety and are a lot easier to play. Give 'em a try, they could give you some relief.Lee

Amen to that one Lee!! You can get that 4 finger "pop" using index and middle fingers in the key of G; middle finger at 7 of G string and index at 5 of the D string. Muting appropriately during the chop with the ring or pinky fingers. For a strong rhythm chop, you really don't need more than the G and D strings. This strategy saves me a lot playing energy with no pain, well except for my finger tips.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[allenhopkins]

Try to ascertain if you're using significantly greater finger pressure when you fret your mandolin, than when you fret your guitar. Do you play a lot of barre chords on the guitar? What's the orientation of your fretting hand/wrist/forearm to the guitar neck when you do, and is it significantly different from their orientation to the mandolin neck?

"Chop" chords can be modified; they don't have to involve all four string courses (I cheat quite a bit when "chopping," often using just three string courses, even two sometimes). It's the timing and timbre of the "chop" that's important in the band sound, not whether you're squeezing down all the strings every time.

Finally, it would make much sense to get a professional analysis, either from a doc or from a sports medicine therapist who specializes in dealing with the consequences of repetitive motion stress. Whatever you're doing is wrong in some way, since you're getting pain, stiffness, and nodule formation. Every hand is physiologically different, just as every mandolin is constructed from unique materials. You may need to drop the action on your mandolin so it's easier to fret, change your fretting/picking technique to use more double stops and single string work rather than four-course chords, hold the instrument at more of an angle, whatever.

I told the doc "It hurts whenever I do this!"

He replied, "Then, don't do it!"

[Markus]

I find your statement about a different wrist position for chop chords sticks out to me as there should not be much movement from relaxed and straight.

Is there a competent mandolin-specific teacher in the area? I would wonder what they would say about your current technique, and how you can fix that or find other chord forms (or partial like Allen suggests).

I also think seeing a Doctor is wise. I have had friends play themselves into physical therapy and taking a break.

[stevedenver]

Hi folks,

I'm 52, been playing guitar since I was about 13 and have been a mando player for around 1 and a half years.

When I first started playing the mando, I noticed that my fingers seemed really cramped (or really stretched in the case of chop chords) and I quite quickly developed nodules on my 1st and 2nd fretting finger joints, where the finger meets the hand. My physio showed my some excercises and stretches and the problem went away.

However, I've found recently that if I take the mando to a jam, that involves a lot of "chopping" then the tendons on the tops of my hands, my wrist and sometimes even my elbow do flare up. My whole fretting hand seems to cramp up, for want of a better term. (I feel the need to shake out the soreness).

The thing is though, that no matter how long or how often I play my guitars, this problem never, ever crops up. It's playing the mando that does it.

So, is it a technique thing, a position thing, or a fretboard thing?

In terms of position, I usually play the mando with a strap, and the mando sits nicely nicely at around elbow height, if that makes sense. It means that the right hand just leans over towards the mando, and the left lower arm has a more or less right-angle bend from the elbow with the upper arm. All nice and relaxed. Can't remember what he's called, but there's a performing arts doctor and mando player/teacher who's video I've watched on youtube and so I replicate what he suggested.

In terms of how I hold the mando neck, I try to leave a gap whenever possible between the hand and the neck of the instrument, so that it kind of sits in the V of the thumb and first finger. Chop chords are a major problem, so there's a lot more contact when using those. One thing my wife noticed is that whenever I do a chop chord my wrist bent at a right-angle, but without that bend I can't seem to get the full stretch.

The instrument is an Eastman 505. My understanding is that it's got a 1 and 3/32 nut width, and the neck is very slim and v-shaped. It's got a radius.

Again, my understanding is that a radius is better for tendons, but some people say it makes no difference. Also, some people say that wide nuts are better (1 and 1/8th or bigger) but wouldn't that exacerbate chop chord stretches?

Feel free to chip in and offer advice if you're suffering (or have suffered) in any way from tendons/cramping when playing the mando.

As I said earlier, I NEVER get this issue when I play any of my guitars - so it could be to do with the width of the neck, the depth of the neck, the general smallness of the neck compared with a guitar, or it could just be those damned chop chords!!

I'm really enjoying playing the mando, and it's even helped me to be a faster lead guitarist, but it's becoming a pain!

Thanks

John

ok-im not a doctor
im over 50, and have also played guitar since i was about 11
started mando five years ago
and
i too , after a three hour jam-banging out g chops-trying to play ringing clear chords over 13 banjos-no joke -but it was stupid of me -i had no idea the amount of pressure that grip used -too much too long
had the first ever hand issue i ever had-trigger finger on the pinky
first my hand was chey and tired, later i got trigger finger -ie the tendon swelled within the sheath and clicked passing through the bands that hold the sheath to the finger

ibuprofin did not seem to help

heres what i think , (and you get what you pay for),
it is likely your technique of having the neck in the V as you state above-to get the reach,
proper technique , as it has been explained to me, is to arch the fingers , similarly to the technique for classical guitar-ie more arch, and therefore more leverage downward from your fingers, as opposed to the angle you create letting the neck rest in the v




heres what i did/and still do
first and foremost-rest whatever fingers are bothering you, that means stop using them or use them very occasionally and light force/pressure

it is likely you have inflammation, and this must be allowed to subside and heal-
my trigger finger took over 6 months-thats how long i used 3 finger chords sans pinky!

it sounds that by reaching , your straining the tendon, possibly because you can get proper angle for leverage-like lifting with your back instead of your knees-kinda

second big thing -imho-i switched to medium Tomastik strings to have far less tension on the mando-you might even go light -this really did help me as opposed to bronze and heavier tension-yes it doesnt have the big woody chop of heavy bronze-

and

try to put your thumb behind the center of the neck and pay attention to your hand ,
and if you must play, (as i did, by choice , but with real mindfulness) play short intervals-and no more than 30-45 minutes daily, skip days too -let the fingers that bother you rest and start again-and get someone to help you on technique-or you might face bigger, long lasting hand issues

simply, extensive gripping can cause issues-mando takes, seemingly, a lot more than guitar-
i have comped jazz chords and rock rhythm for hours at a time, and only previously experienced hand fatigue, but never anything that lasted to the following day

so,
id suggest
lighten the strings and back off-modify your technique, even if its 2 finger chords and open strings for a while

i avoided surgery for my trigger finger by being patient and really resting-it took a long time
you may not sound as good, but you might heal

[oldwest]

I can't emphasize this enough. Total rest from what caused the injury until the symptoms have 100% resolved or until you've seen a doc who you can tell is comfortable with repetitive motion injuries, then follow instructions. By persisting, you really can do something to yourself that even surgery can't fix. Just not worth it.

[mtucker]

Either the grip, the angle of the mandolin (likely culprit to the wrist problem), or set up is wrong, or a combination of all three are hosed up.

Mike's video has perhaps been attached to more threads than any other single video in the history of the mandolin cafe. There's reason for that...

take a look ;)

NmagoBQunZI

[Tom Cherubini]

Are (or were) you using the so-called "power grip"? If so, that one for any length of time bothers me a lot, too. I didn't get trigger finger from it, but would have to stop whenever curling my index finger made it go completely numb (as in no sensation at all - usually in about 10-15 minutes). I have to have the finger extended at least partially. (That's one reason why I like the Roman plectrum so much more.)

bratsche
Thanks, Bratsche. I'm afraid I don't know what the "power grip" is.
The Roman pick sounds like a good idea. My nephew made me four of them with various tip-shapes out of Corian that they use in the boat-shop. They're perfectly made but are a bit slippery if your hand doesn't perspire. I'll have to give one an extended try.
(Edit: just realized that if they are slippery it will require a tight grip to hold them - I will file rough grooves across both sides of the central portion as a "grip".)
And is a "power grip" a tight grip so you can play loud?

Tom

[abuteague]

I can over do it grip too hard with the left hand.
I got myself a 4 string electric mando and I practice on that to relearn a light touch. It doesn't hurt.
Then I phase back in the acoustic 8 string mando trying to keep that light touch.

[Pasha Alden]

Hi there
Initially when I started playing my hand used to cramp up. Chop chords, or what you seem to call the four-finger-position chords and melody do not make any difference. What I do find is that when my hand becomes tired there is a slight cramp and what's more my hand then loses the correct position. When I have a tired hand I stop. Conclude my practice. The reason: A tired hand equals bad hand position and some tension in the wrist. So I listen to the hand. Also played guitar then abandoned it due to my small hands. Abandoned it for years - so I think my hands did not feel the transition from guitar to mandolin so much. Hope you get the better of the cramping up and that the mandolin playing becomes happy. Vanillamandolin

[bratsche]

Thanks, Bratsche.
And is a "power grip" a tight grip so you can play loud?

They encourage you to hold it loosely, so it's more of a close-to-the-hand grip so you can play from the wrist. It involves making a fist with the index finger tightly curled, the thumb on top, and placing the pick between them. Advocates say it helps speed and tone. I've learned to do it (it was awkward at first), but for the reason I mentioned, extreme numbing of the index finger, it isn't my first choice for long-term playing.

bratsche

[Pete Martin]

It was probably my videos you were refering to in the OP, but if not:

Look at the "Mandolin Basics vol 1 - 5" videos I did, you can find them at my petimarpress web site below. These show the ergonomic techniques taught me be a great performing arts doc when I was having my problems. They may answer some questions and could minimize problem areas.

Best of luck!

[Mike Arakelian]

I've had a similar problem...have played the guitar for many years without a problem and then just a few months after picking up the mandolin, I started experiencing problems with minor trigger finger and then numbness and some pain in my left hand. I saw a local Orthopedist who sent me to a Neurologist for some testing. It turns out the Neurologist was a guitar player and took some added personal interest in my problem. The tests indicated mild carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor recommended rest for my hand (no mandolin or guitar) until my hand felt good and then to start up and resume playing for short periods of time. I had been playing the mandolin for a couple of hours a day, and he stated that the tension or stress that I was putting on my hand was the cause of the tendinitis. He also recommended that I wear a wrist brace to keep my wrist immobile (especially when i sleep) and to take an anti-inflammatory such as Aleve. The use of both heat and ice is also recommended to decrease the swelling (ice), and to increase blood flow(heat). It's been about a month since I started this routine, and my hand is beginning to feel well enough that I'm playing a half hour or so each day. Hopefully I'll be back to 100% before too long. Good luck and take things slow and easy!

The Loar 220
Martin D-28
Gibson Songwriter

[Johnny60]

Many thanks for the huge amount of replies! And yes, Peter, it was your video that I originally saw. I'll take a good look at the stuff on your website later tonight.

Haven't touched the mando for 2 days and the tendons and hand feel tons better. Have played guitar though - with no issues at all. It's obviously something that I'm doing wrong on the mando.

Do you folks think a wider nut width would help, or should I just try to improve my technique on the Eastman? Trouble is, there are no mando teachers near where I live. Tons of players though, and they all play differently!

Thanks

John

[stevedenver]

Many thanks for the huge amount of replies! And yes, Peter, it was your video that I originally saw. I'll take a good look at the stuff on your website later tonight.

Haven't touched the mando for 2 days and the tendons and hand feel tons better. Have played guitar though - with no issues at all. It's obviously something that I'm doing wrong on the mando.

Do you folks think a wider nut width would help, or should I just try to improve my technique on the Eastman? Trouble is, there are no mando teachers near where I live. Tons of players though, and they all play differently!

Thanks

John

interesting to see the previous poster had a similar experience-
i am so glad i didnt chose to get cut, per my surgeon's recommendation

your questions are, imho, and respectfully , in the wrong vein-
you need to rest-it might have been technique-you may have simply over done it-ie 'overtrained'
rest

I dont know about wider-on a mando wider is limited-the sam bushes ive played make little difference

i think, simply, youve strained your hand and it needs time to heal,
and since you're over twenty, that takes more time than you might be willing to acknowledge
(im usually impatient with my own injuries, typically from running-i remember being 20 and not liking the fact that im not anymore in this regard, helaing doesnt take a day or two anymore)

rest
be patient
rest
and only when you feel nothing wierd
start up again, slowly, judiciously
rest

you have the rest of your playing life to consider
and i presume, you , like me, would chose to avoid surgery if that's the choice

so back off for two or three months-it took me over six !-that was six months of not using my pinky , period-can help you become 'creative' with mando voicings-

since your injury is different, you may simply need to rest completely-listen to your body

youre feeling better, good, go slow
then slowly start again

[somewherepath]

I don't know if this situation is similar to yours, but in the last few weeks I've been having some pain in the knuckles of my left hand, especially when fretting the E string close to the nut. Just this morning I found this (http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/000599.shtml) thread on JazzMando, and find that it feels much more comfortable and not painful at all the more I concentrate on keeping my fingers parallel to the strings rather than perpendicular to them, as the pictures show (which I thought I was doing already, but apparently not enough). I noticed the difference immediately - maybe this could help?

[Johnny60]

Hi folks,

It's been a couple of weeks since I first started this thread and I thought I'd give a quick update.

I went to see a physiotherapist and took my mando with me to show her the things that are causing me pain. She very quickly ascertained that when I play easier chords and lead breaks, my hand and wrist are in a straight line, with a very relaxed hand. As soon as I tried to play a 4 fingered G chop chord, my wrist angle goes all to pot, my hand stiffens up, and for some weird reason my left shoulder lifts up, all of which aggravates the tendons.

She's given me some great stretches to do which have really helped. ALL pain has gone, and there's no sign of arthritis.

I've taken your advice and for the time being I'm playing the G chop with just 2 fingers. Much, much easier and sounds fine.

Thanks for all your help and advice - seems I went to see the physio before any real damage was done.

This still leaves one question for the future - is a wider nut than 1 and 3/32 more comfy and less cramped, or it hardly noticeable?

Thanks again for all your advice. Glad I went to the physio!

[Tom Haywood]

Another thought that I've not seen posted before - the thickness/shape of the neck. I'm not very familiar with the Eastman. I've never had the problem you describe until three weeks ago. Forty-five years on the guitar, six years on the mandolin. I play at least 2 hours every day, two different mandolins. I bought a cheap Rogue mandolin to have for a beater. First day of playing, the joint (actually the big knuckle) where the index finger comes out of the hand swoll up and was very tender and painful. My other instruments aren't affecting it, including a Greek bouzouki with a huge round neck. I have reduced the problem significantly by reducing the size and shape of the neck to fit my grip better. Might be worth visiting a luthier, though this mod might void your warranty. Oh, I do yoga stretches for the hands, etc. regularly. They generally clear up this problem for folks, but they were no match for this mandolin.

[JeffD]

I am not sure that getting a different neck or wider nut will help significantly. I think that making sure your hand position, for melody and chords, is as healthy and tension free as possible. You only have to push the strings down, and its not a far distance. :)

Less tension in the left hand does not risk dropping the instrument, as you should not be holding any of the weight of the instrument in your left hand anyway.


Last thought. I was getting very severe pains in my left hand, along the back, and up behind the wrist, after about a half hour of playing. If I played longer it could hurt for the rest of the night. It came on very gradually, and I chalked it up to "old guy" syndrome and ignored it till it got so severe I thought I would have to give up the mandolin.

Long story short, I was diagnosed with diabetes a week later. Once I got my blood sugar down to acceptable levels - ALL THE PAIN WENT AWAY. Like magic. Soon enough I could play for hours and hours with no pain.

I am not saying it applies in your case, but certainly something to rule out.