Did Lloyd Loar sign anything but the F5s?

[terzinator]

When you see Gibson mandolins other than F5s from the early 20's, you see the term "Loar era" not "Loar signed"... Did he sign labels for anything besides the F5s?

Did he have anything to do with the other styles?

Searched, but found nothing helpful!

EDIT! Found this on wikipedia...

Only one A-style mandolin, a Gibson A5, is known to have been signed by Loar. It has been widely copied, originally by mandolin maker Bob Givens. The Loar A5 was found by Tut Taylor and sold to a Southern California bluegrass musician in 1974.

[goaty76]

He also the signed the H-5 mandola, K-5 mandocello, and L-5 guitars built during his time at Gibson.

Phil

[Chip Booth]

The oval hole instruments had a significant redesign at the same time, neck shape, truss rod, peg head shape, etc. I suspect something changed about the body or the arching as well, but I can't say specifically what it was. I know there is a good thread here somewhere that goes over that.

[terzinator]

I wonder what he did to that one A5 he signed.

From the Mandolin Archive:
The "Ms. Griffith" mandolin, A-model body, snakehead, Fleur-De-Lis inlay, unique tone and top response, only known style 5 A-model.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/74003

Of all the Loar-signed mandolins, THAT's the one I'd want!

[Spruce]

Of all the Loar-signed mandolins, THAT's the one I'd want!

Join the club.... ;)

[pefjr]

I would like to play a LL signed instrument for 72 hrs. just to confirm my suspicions.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I would like to play a LL signed instrument for 72 hrs. just to confirm my suspicions.

I could use a 3-day trip to Vegas

[Pete Martin]

I wonder what he did to that one A5 he signed.

From the Mandolin Archive:
The "Ms. Griffith" mandolin, A-model body, snakehead, Fleur-De-Lis inlay, unique tone and top response, only known style 5 A-model.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/74003

Of all the Loar-signed mandolins, THAT's the one I'd want!


It the single best sounding mandolin I've had in my hands.

[pefjr]

I could use a 3-day trip to VegasGreat, PM me with your dates.

[PJ Doland]

Does anybody know if Loar's own personal 10-string mandola is signed?

[Steve Ostrander]

It the single best sounding mandolin I've had in my hands.

Wow, you actually got to play it? Lucky dawg...

[terzinator]

It the single best sounding mandolin I've had in my hands.
Wow. I never knew about this one until now. Lucky dawg is right!

Where do you think this signed A5 would be valued, compared to the F5s? (Being the only one in existence!)

[MikeEdgerton]

I love the Ms. Griffith Loar. Here's (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?66144-Ms-Griffith-A5-Loar&highlight=griffith) a pretty extensive past thread regarding that mandolin.

[terzinator]

I love the Ms. Griffith Loar. Here's (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?66144-Ms-Griffith-A5-Loar&highlight=griffith) a pretty extensive past thread regarding that mandolin.
Thank you! You've just killed any chance I had for a productive hour at work. ;)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Does anybody know if Loar's own personal 10-string mandola is signed?

It is not
..as a matter of fact I think the serial number is just written on the wood (no Master Model label)

Great, PM me with your dates.

Send your credit card number for the flights :)):grin:


Wow. I never knew about this one until now. Lucky dawg is right!

Where do you think this signed A5 would be valued, compared to the F5s? (Being the only one in existence!)

It was priced around $350,000 a few years back and did not sell quickly. The owner then took it off the market

[terzinator]

It was priced around $350,000 a few years back and did not sell quickly. The owner then took it off the market
A Canadian MC member named "Tone" appeared to be the owner of it (from the thread Mike Edgerton referenced)... and there was a YT link at the end of that thread, where the A5 was being played by a gentleman named Pat Sauber. (Hadn't heard of him before...)

Anyone know if Ms. Griffith makes any appearances these days?

Many of you have had the chance to play it. How did those opportunities present themselves, if I may ask?

(I can now add "playing the Loar A5" to the few otherworldly experiences I'd like to have... tasting a 1982 Chateau Margaux, playing golf at Augusta, jamming with David Grisman, etc...)

[MikeEdgerton]

Thank you! You've just killed any chance I had for a productive hour at work. ;)

You're welcome. Heck, I went back and reread the thread and followed the links.

[DataNick]

I wonder what he did to that one A5 he signed.

From the Mandolin Archive:
The "Ms. Griffith" mandolin, A-model body, snakehead, Fleur-De-Lis inlay, unique tone and top response, only known style 5 A-model.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/74003

Of all the Loar-signed mandolins, THAT's the one I'd want!

Terz,

I suspect that those of us with an un-adulterated, unsafisticated Lloyd Loar mandolin pallete, would be just fine with a Givens A5 or some other facsimile by one of the many incredible luthiers out there today...Your dream could be realized in a practical way I bet! LOL!

That's why I've agreed in principle to buy a friend's 1987 Givens A2...

[terzinator]

Thanks, DataNick. And yep, I've got Givens on my "next mandolin... someday" shortlist!

[DataNick]

Thanks, DataNick. And yep, I've got Givens on my "next mandolin... someday" shortlist!

Here's to "someday" being soon my MAS/MAD buddy!

[DataNick]

Thanks, DataNick. And yep, I've got Givens on my "next mandolin... someday" shortlist!

Terz,

This one might take the place of the Givens...I'm already looking at the Givens as a stepping-stone to this:

http://sandymunromusic.com/s/Nugget_TOB.html

I think they go for around $10-13k...

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Terz,

This one might take the place of the Givens...I'm already looking at the Givens as a stepping-stone to this:

http://sandymunromusic.com/s/Nugget_TOB.html

I think they go for around $10-13k...

Nick - it's your lucky day - why wait: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/65927

BTW I think the price you quoted may be high - I seem to remember seeing them for 6-7K not long ago.

[j. condino]

Wow, you actually got to play it? Lucky dawg...

Also my favorite of all that I've played; so nice to get all of that voice in a clean simple package. If you can't get everything you need out of that one, it is not the mandolin!!!;)

j.
www.condino.com

[f5loar]

I could use a 3-day trip to Vegas Me too! And I'll pay for my own gambling time.

[pefjr]

Me too! And I'll pay for my own gambling time.Wow, this is gonna be fun. You guys can pick mandolin, and I will pick your mando encyclopedic minds. Looking forward to this.

[DataNick]

Nick - it's your lucky day - why wait: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/65927

BTW I think the price you quoted may be high - I seem to remember seeing them for 6-7K not long ago.

Aah! If only I could scare up the funds...hmmm, I could sell my convertible BMW 325i and buy a beater car...nope, I'm not that far gone down the MAS/MAD trail; not with summer comin on in the SoCal land of hot babes...I need my ride to scare up some female diversion...oh well! LOL!

[Gary Hedrick]

I had a chance to play the A5 (thanks to Lynn Dudenbostel taking me over to Tut's).......unique mandolin.....had my january '23 Loar to compare it to. Just a difference in complexity of tone. FUN TIME!! Tut is a very nice fellow

Also the way the body is shaped is odd. (as has been commented on many times here).......

[tim noble]

I had an interesting instrument that I discussed with Darryl a couple of years ago. I had a shop in Emmaus PA in the mid 1970s and was building F5s with Roger S assistance. A guy named Charles (from NY or New England) contacted me and set up an appointment and arrived in a vintage Packard loaded with mandolins including at least 3 signed Loars. They were out of my price range and he proceeded to pull out an old A5 style mandolin with many 20s features such as fleur de lis and the Gibson in a bound truss rod snakehead. It had a long scale with f holes, nice woods, fully bound but finished in a brownish (a bit on the green side) sunburst, Gibson tail cover and patented adjustable bridge. The top had partially collapsed but it was still playable and I gave him $350 or so. (He tried to pick up my girl friend and I kicked him out of my house around 10 PM the evening). I removed the back and with some steam and a new tone bar I got the top reasonably arched and it played very nicely with a unique sound and loud bark. I showed it around for a couple of years and most thought it was likely a real Gibson and that his story of it being a prototype that may have been finished by an employee in a home shop was at least plausible. In 1978 or so I took it to Indian Springs and my mentor Andy Boarman introduced me to the Seldom Scene and while sitting around their campfire with Ben Eldridge, Mike and the crew, Duffy asked to play it. He chopped and ran the board and proclaimed "what the hell would someone like you be doing with an instrument like this - it can't be real, bla bla bla." After cutting me down and attempting to embarrass me a bit, he offered me $800. He would have been the last to get a shot!

I sold it to someone in the Lehigh Valley PA in 1979 or 80 and for the life of me I cannot recall his name either. Somewhere there are photos and it still must be floating around. Hopefully it will surface for some expert assessment and I will deny that I did the top work - not necessarily the good ole days:(
Tim

[f5loar]

I've heard stories of a 2nd Loar A5 and this is the best story I've heard concerning it. But like the Snowman tales, still no photos or whereabouts of it.

[terzinator]

Terz,

This one might take the place of the Givens...I'm already looking at the Givens as a stepping-stone to this:

http://sandymunromusic.com/s/Nugget_TOB.html

I think they go for around $10-13k...
Also been a fan of that black topped TOB Nugget/Collings! Reminds me of my little MT!

But back on point... where is Ms Griffith now, and when can I play it?

[Jim Garber]

I've heard stories of a 2nd Loar A5 and this is the best story I've heard concerning it. But like the Snowman tales, still no photos or whereabouts of it.

But I don't think Tim Noble ever said it was signed by any one... I don't see any mention of label or signature in his post above. It could have been a converted A4, right?

[tim noble]

I just wrote F5loar a long PM but think it got lost as it doesn't show up in sent mail. I'm some what new to forums but think this is an important story. I'm just recently getting back into the study of vintage instruments and this thread got me thinking of attempting to document this instrument. I am happy to provide a long explanation of the instrument and ask you guys what is the best way to see if we can get in touch with old timers in the mandolin world in eastern PA. Would starting a new thread or bumping the A5 thread be better than just continuing this?
There was no label but I do recall a stamped number and some writing on the underside of the top. I was building and repairing full time in the Lehigh Valley from 1974 - 1984 and worked on many vintage instruments and build a few F5s in 76. In 78 I acquired a 1922 F4 Cremona that I knew was special and still have it. Roger Siminoff likely saw the instrument as well as John Duffy. I have photos of Henry Garrison acquired style O and mando bases, my inventory in 76 and early builds but I cannot find any of this instrument. Several knowledgeable people agree with me that it appeared unaltered but it clearly was not a factory finish. Any suggestions of how to get in touch with the small mandolin community in SE PA from the 70s/80s? Even if I contact Roger or John Duffy the only information would be at best " yea I recall something" It was in PA and probably is still somewhere and only if it resurfaces for expert inspection can the originality be assessed. Thanks
Tim Noble

[SternART]

You could definitely contact Roger, but unfortunately not Duffy......

[Ken Waltham]

I have never had any definitive proof, but, virtually everyone whose looked at this agrees....
Charlie Derrington felt this was the very first Gibson Virzi instrument, and, of course, personally owned by Lloyd himself. Not exactly a signature, but....102215
The rest of the mandolin is here..http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76642

[Bernie Daniel]

Aah! If only I could scare up the funds...hmmm, I could sell my convertible BMW 325i and buy a beater car...nope, I'm not that far gone down the MAS/MAD trail; not with summer comin on in the SoCal land of hot babes...I need my ride to scare up some female diversion...oh well! LOL!

Certainly one could get more chicks with an F-5 than a 325i?

[goaty76]

Does anybody know if Loar's own personal 10-string mandola is signed?

As was stated earlier the answer is no. We know it is Loar's instrument only because it has been photographed with Loar on a few occasions. Most famously a picture of him holding it at his workbench at Gibson.
102221

My question is, if this photographic record did not exist and this instrument was found today would we consider it to be a "Loar" instrument or a probable Loar era instrument. It's a tricky one I think. Let me now say that I have a personal motive in asking this question. I own an instrument with possible Loar connections. It has many of the correct features to be something that Loar would have worked on. However it does not have the Loar signature and no pictures from the past of it have popped up to validate the connection. It is an experimental guitar that I described in an article in The Fretboard Journal issue #25. So I guess what I want to know is can you have a Loar without it being signed? I guess not without some other documentation like the photographs of the mando-viola.

102222


Phil

[f5loar]

I got the PM. It would not show up in your sent email box. It goes through the cafe's system not yours. You get notified of it when you log back onto the cafe forum. I answered it. I will have to remain a "show me" type to be convinced there is a 2nd Loar A5 out there. So far this falls in that same mystery file with the unsigned "2nds" made from 1922 to 1924. Someone has a file of photos of dozens of these but has yet to make them public.
We do know the first documented F5 made in June of 1922 does have a dated signature label.

[8strings]

..... his resignation from Gibson.

[tim noble]

I have hesitated to post this story because of the lack of photos or other documentation but it still is a good story. My main intent was to see if someone on this forum was around the Lehigh Valley and Godfrey Daniels scene who might recall the instrument or know of folks who were into vintage mandolins in the time frame. I had it for over 2 years and lots of people played or at least saw it. This was within 10 years after the Loar A5 was discovered and even though TUT and others had replicas made, this clearly was "distressed" and appeared very old. It certainly could have been intentionally forged but why would it have a finish that did not match the original on an other wise exceptional instrument? Maybe just a poor copy? but as I search my memory, I cannot recall any details - crazing, yellowing, oxidation of hardware, etc. that cried fake.

Just getting feed back from this thread, possible suspects are coming to the forefront. Clearly if the person I sold it to was still involved in the vintage world they would have come forward to have an assessment. Where ever it is, its probably tucked in a closet. Maybe someone knows an enthusiast named Joe Mcguire from northern New Jersey. Joe was an early supporter who commissioned my first build and purchased a number of vintage instruments from me. Joe would be in his mid/late 60s and he took lessons with an old jazz player in Easton or Phillipsburg NJ. Joe is a likely suspect and I think I even lent it to him while I built his mandolin. I will contact the NJ Mandolin and Guitar Society to see if any one knows him and will be at Godfreys next week where some of the old timers still hang out.

I hadn't thought of this instrument in years until I stumbled onto a few threads on the A5. Just a fuzzy Polaroid or the actual instrument would be fun to uncover. The search goes on.
Tim

[MikeEdgerton]

I live in NJ, I'm in the south central part of the state, and I've never heard the name Joe Mcguire. That doesn't mean he doesn't still live here but he isn't making the rounds down here and we've got player in their 80's. I'll ask around to see if any of the older guys know him.

[terzinator]

I think it was mentioned in the other Griffith A5 thread that Hans Brentrup had built a number of these Loar A5's a few years back. Well, it sounds like he's building mandolins again, and he plans to make more of these.

I should be committed to a rubber room, but I just tossed my name on his list.

[Spruce]

Well, it sounds like he's building mandolins again, and he plans to make more of these.


Really!?
Great news...

If anyone out there is considering a 74003 build, PM me...
I have some nice Hacklingers of both top and back, and some extensive notes taken by the late John Sullivan...
Very useful stuff...

This, from the Loar Wiki Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Loar):

"The Loar A5 was found by Tut Taylor and sold to a Southern California bluegrass musician in 1974."

Do we know who that musician was? Just curious...

I remember the ad in Mandolin World News back then...
I think the asking price was 10K?
Anyone have a scan of that ad??
I just found all my old issues of MWN, but I'm apparently missing that issue....

[f5loar]

I recall 1966 or there abouts is when Tut first found the A5 and was showing it around. I saw it back in '66 at the Union Grove Fiddler's Convention and so did Darryl Wolfe. We both took photos of it then knowing it was something unusual yet really special.
So from 1966 until Tut sold it 1974 it had lots of interested parties/luthiers that took measurements and made copies. Some copies were dead on including fake signed Loar labels. Others were pretty obvious fakes. That's a lot years for these early copies to get distressed looking. Back then the hardest part was geting the shading colors right and few tackeled the varnish Gibson used so most were some form of lacuqer. Since those early copies were made they have had plenty of time to get that distressed look.

[Spruce]

So from 1966 until Tut sold it 1974 it had lots of interested parties/luthiers that took measurements and made copies. Some copies were dead on including fake signed Loar labels.

Wow, thanks for that...
I had no idea that 74003 was receiving that kind of love back then...

Good thing to know in case you run into a Loar-signed A5 at a hock shop for 15K... :)

[Darryl Wolfe]

For clarification, it was more like late 76 or early 77 when the A5 was sold by Tut. He called and offered it to me right after I bought 72615.

Also, back in the 60's, nobody was taking accurate measurement of anything. I also really do not recall anyone making A5 copies. A50's were getting converted, but hardly anyone started making any scratch mandolins until around 1969, all they were 99% F5 "Gibson" copies.

And, The A5 really did not have alot of respect at the time. It sounded good yes, but it was perceived as a bast**d" by most people. This is why it was lucky to even bring a Loar F5 price when it did sell.

[Spruce]

For clarification, it was more like late 76 or early 77 when the A5 was sold by Tut.

That's what I remember as well...
MWN started in '76, and that's where I saw Tut's ad...


This is why it was lucky to even bring a Loar F5 price when it did sell.

I remember a 10K asking price at right around the same time that a nice F5 was going for 7.5K...?
Hard to say what it really sold for...

[pefjr]

There was a very early copy sold on EBAY about a year and half ago. The seller was here in LV and I went to his house and checked it out. It looked smaller than a KM900, and had old rusty strings on it so no sound at all, but a beautiful cherry finish and flamed maple back. I offered on it, but he later sold it on EBAY.

[MikeEdgerton]

I kick myself for not grabbing the last Brentrup snakehead Hans built (that I know of). He pretty much told me when I asked later that he wouldn't build any more.

[terzinator]

I kick myself for not grabbing the last Brentrup snakehead Hans built (that I know of). He pretty much told me when I asked later that he wouldn't build any more.
Apparently he's doing pretty well after surgery on his thumb and elbow, so he can carve tops and backs again. His guitars were cool, but I'm thrilled that he's back making mandolins.

[shylock3]

102233102234
In the above picture you'll notice the A-5 Loar surrounded by a brace of F-5 Loars. This photo was taken a few years ago at a gathering of some Loar owners from East Tennessee.
The fellow in possession of the A-5 -though his name was mentioned in an earlier post-I'll leave out for his privacy's sake-, had the mandolin on loan. He had owned the mandolin previously but had sold it to a fellow in California who let him borrow it back. He was very gracious to invite us into his home; we picked and had a memorial visit.
For an instrument collector just being in the same room with this instrument was almost overwhelming, let alone getting to pick it. There was an awesome July 9 there that night also.
I took 79834 that I had purchased from a fellow named Skaggs for 43K not long before that night. This will give some of you a time reference. I offered 100k that night for the A5, but was told the fellow who owned it didn't want to sell it. I knew this would be an awesome feather in my cap-but it didn't happen.
My "kick myself in the but moment", or one of the many came a little earlier. The Mr. Garrison who was mentioned earlier also had what I've been told is the only know signed Cherry-Burst Loar. He was in Nashville at a guitar show. He invited me into his room the night before he set up and let me pick this mandolin and offered it to me for a little over 25K, DUH. He also had the first Gilchrist I'd ever seen, he wanted 3k for it, not me I didn't want no OFFBRAND. Double DUH. And I had the money-Tripple DUH.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'll note that I owned a "The Gibson" hat just like the one on the back of the couch.... :cool:

[f5loar]

I'm not convined those are all "Loars" on that sofa.

[lenf12]

In the interests of learning something about Loar signed mandolins, tell us why you are not convinced Tom. There's gotta be some detail that jumps out at you, like the block inlays on the mandolin on the left. What else?? Do tell!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[stratman62]

I'm with Tom, but having having set on that couch and playing that A5, I am a fortunate man.